The Fall of Plaguestone

Game Master Eric Collins - France

May I politely ask what Natsume's doing? Monsters can get to you where you are and finish you off. And you're still bleeding 4. It looks like a perfect moment to get the hell out of here.

Also, getting something from your bag is 2 actions, if I don't make a mistake. I'm not sure your candle is easily accessible in a bandolier.

About mistakes, I tend to agree with you Farol, you made a few of them. The Burning Hands one forced us to stay while I was pushing for long range fight, but I'm not sure I would have been followed on that tactic without a strong message like a character death. In my opinion, the biggest one you made was to run away when Giggett interposed herself instead of 3-action magic missile the brown plant. I got lucky to survive this round.

But as Tamerius said, you are not the only one who made mistakes. Giggett is a bit angry about everyone, as you will see if you read what will happen next.

But maybe all is Giggett's fault?

When you met the Bloodsuckers she complained that the opposition was a joke.

So, this encounter that called for you to face 3 of those little creatures felt too easy for the gnome, thus, in order to help her with her Bleaching, I upgraded it a little bit!

No... that's a joke.

These are tough enemies.

As for:

while I was pushing for long range fight

We shall see if you try that tactic if you come back.

Well, if I made mistake in your opinion, don't hesitate to point them out.
For the long range tactic, I don't think I would have been followed anyway, so it's kind of useless to compare both tactics.
And anyway, it'd be a bit nasty to blame someone for using the spells that are given to him by the game. Low level wizards don't have the range to stay out of trouble.

To help Dragh out with his choices, what do you think is his best bet?

As a player I believe I would roll my Recovery Check hoping to succeed.
If I fail then I can use my Hero Point to reroll.
But if I succeed then I can use my Hero Point to have two rolls for the anti Bleed roll if needed, or, if very lucky, to use to reroll further Recovery Checks.

Seems to me like a better gamble than stabilizing with the Hero Point (then dropping right back to the same situation) and then having all rely on making the Bleed flat check...

But no idea how this works out statistically.

Any other anti-Dwarf-death strategies?

Even if he makes his flat check, he'll take damage from the bleeding, increasing his Dying value to 4.
And even if, thanks to Torag intervention, he survives this round, I would not understand the monsters not to suck his blood. After all, they are called bloodsuckers, not just suckers.

The only thing I am saying is that I don't think you guys should feel bad about not having right away tried to going ranged.
That people not doing as Giggett asked made things go bad.
My feeling is that it would not have changed things much.
For rhe reasons given above.
For the fact that you know arrows do not hurt them much and you metagamed that slings would not either.
Thus you need cantrips I imagine which are 2 action attacks mainly making you lose the speed advantage (1 attack + 1 stride vs 2 strides + 1 attack)

All that simply meaning that it does not seem like going straight to ranged would have turned the tide drastically.

Even if he makes his flat check, he'll take damage from the bleeding, increasing his Dying value to 4.

I do think it is important that you guys read the rules more. Like just reading the rule that pertains to a current situation. To not make a mistake in your choices.

Right, sorry about that.
On paper, there's a glitch in the rules: If you stabilize with Hero Points, you are at 0 hps without the Dying condition. If you take damage, you don't gain the Dying condition as you need to be reduced to 0 hit points to gain it (and on paper, you are not reduced to 0 hit points as you were already there). And you don't increase your Dying condition value because you don't have it. So, you are invincible !

Quote:

Even if he makes his flat check, he'll take damage from the bleeding, increasing his Dying value to 4.

I do think it is important that you guys read the rules more. Like just reading the rule that pertains to a current situation. To not make a mistake in your choices.

I don't have the rulebook, actually. So I read the rules on Archive of Nethys, and it's hard to get "all the rules pertaining to a situation" as they are kind of scattered. There is still the big "rules" section, but it's extremely hard to use as you have to know beforehand in what section of the rules you'll find what you're looking for to find it... So, I have easy time finding a very specific point, like a spell or item description, as the search function works fine for that. But for general rules, it's messy.

First of all, I hope I did not sound accusatory. I only meant that I do not want people making mistakes or doing the wrong strategy and ending up with a problem because of a misread rule.
It is not meant to be nagging people for not reading the rules etc..
Not something negative.

The same for saying that the idea of ranged probably would not have worked out to be that great an idea in the end (which you could not have known when giving the idea, since you did not know about tremorsense and other things).
It was a good idea w. what you knew. I was only saying to not regret it too much as in thinking it would all have gone great if only you'd all done that. It was a good idea, just that with the forest and tremorsense and actions, it probably would not have changed things that much. Thus I don't want you to think I was saying it was a bad idea, simply not to regret too much not having done it.

Since the Internet can have things misconstrued, just want to make sure.

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re. the rules on Archives of Nethys: what I do know is use Google search by typing things in, like "Recovery Check Pathfinder 2e" or "Dying Pathfinder 2e" and it offers me the page on Archives of Nethys (probably because I open AoN a lot).
I agree w. you that it is hard to look through the AoN pages... and this way works way faster for me.

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On paper, there's a glitch in the rules

Oh?!

If you stabilize with Hero Points, you are at 0 hps without the Dying condition.

If you take damage, you don't gain the Dying condition as you need to be reduced to 0 hit points to gain it (and on paper, you are not reduced to 0 hit points as you were already there).
And you don't increase your Dying condition value because you don't have it. So, you are invincible !

Okay, so then by spending Hero Points, Dragh would be at 0 hp and Wounded 3.

But that is the same (other than not increasing the Wounded level) as:

If you lose the dying condition by succeeding at a recovery check and are still at 0 Hit Points, you remain unconscious, but you can wake up as described on page 460.

Okay... if you read what happens when you are unconscious they say nothing about taking damage.

And then, if you add up:

When you take damage, you reduce your current Hit Points by a number equal to the damage dealt.

With:

Creatures cannot be reduced to fewer than 0 Hit Points.

(...)
As a player character, when you are reduced to 0 Hit Points, you’re knocked out with the following effects:

So, I imagine the meaning there is that you are reduced by the damage taken, but cannot go to negative, so--

Per RAW, there's an issue, in my opinion. But I don't expect any GM to rule it that way. The real issue is that you can have 2 readings out of RAW:
- You consider that taking damage while stabilized is equivalent to being reduced to 0 hit points. This is your reading and I also find it more logical.
- You consider that you are still in the process of Dying, at "Dying 0", which is in line with how the recovery checks are working (getting to Dying 0 is equivalent to losing the Dying condition) and as such you just increase to Dying 1 while taking damage. This reading is a bit less logical, but far nicer to players. Considering that we speak of a potential character death and that RAW is not extremely accurate, using this ruling has the advantage of removing unnecessary arguments.

Anyway, it doesn't look like anyone will help Dragh. So, does it has an impact? Will the Bloodsuckers let him live if he stabilizes?

About the idea of ranged, as always, we can remake the fight over and over. I don't think there has been a big mistake leading to Dragh's death. In my opinion, having only one dead character is kind of a "good outcome" considering the strength of the enemies. We have been very close to lose three of us, only Tamerius has been safe during the whole fight.

I would even add that if Natsume continues to play with matches, she may soon follow Dragh, as she's clearly not out of harm's way...

The dead bush opens a leafy eye and mutters: "I am a bloodlash bush, not a bloodsucker!"

We shall see what Dragh does, and what Natsume does.

As a side note, I tend to think making assumptions isn't metagaming because those assumptions could very easily be wrong--

"That's a plant, so it probably doesn't like fire, and clubbing it to death isn't going to work," for example. It's something a character with two naturey skills (but no Nature?? what even is this character build???) would probably be able to assume without slowing down to think about it.

But maybe she (and I) are wrong, and she should have stopped to think about it?

Ok I made my post. I once again read the fight and analyzed what had happened. When I said that I made mistake, I don't assume that my different action would certainly made a different effect ;) I think that till now most fights were relatively easy (beside the one with Hallod). I assumed that those plants are a way to use some of our daily resources (potions, spells etc.) That is why I risked with the burning hands, it seemed like a good way of testing how they respond to fire.

However, at that moment, I had no idea how strong those plants were. The biggest problem with this fight was that bleeding + dying makes it extremely hard to recover and took down another PC to save you.

When Gig stand between me and the enemies I was considering casting from the prone or standing and casting, but as I knew how hard they hit, I was afraid that even if the luck will be with us, the remaining one could still hit me through the Giggett. I stepped away hoping to soft reset into range combat. Given Dragh short legs I couldn't escape them completely. So that would be it, I think for this combat we would be better having two front lines instead of 1 and 3 squishies. But as you all pointed out, it has now become an analysis: if I would do this and rolled high then ...

A lot of maybes here, oh well live and learn as my Uncle Goldenoak used to say.

The Hero Point allows you to reroll, so after a roll (it is not before and roll 2 dice choose best).

Well... no luck with the Bleeding check.

If you'd used the HP first, then you'd have gone to 0 hp w/o adding a +1 to Wounded, and thus been at Wounded 2, then, for me, the Bleed would've hurt you again and dropped you to dying @ Wounded 3 like now.

That's how the cookie crumbled... R.I.P. Master Dragh.

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I will now see what the attack roll vs. Natsume is...
• not a Crit'
• and did not drop her on the spot!
So, though a hit, it could've been worse or worser.

I know I probably wrongly grumble too much about metagaming (sorry for being a grumpy GM now and then, only, hopefully), but, just to be clear, even in "reality" (?!) you would not see what happens to Dragh, it is evident to your characters that he passed.
And that there is no saving him anymore.
Even if you cannot see him, you felt something in your soul... as his soul slipped away.

Thus it might be that your prime goal now, would be to save your souls?

Hey folks, today I am traveling so don't expect frequent posting. Oh wait nvm, I am dead :p

Dead Dwarf walking!

Safe travels...

I think Natsume’s gonna vow to pay the revival costs for her dwarves companions as soon as she’s able, tbh.

Stay alive, Nat’!

Hey folks, today I am traveling so don't expect frequent posting. Oh wait nvm, I am dead :p

I see dead people!

Posting here my intention to use a Hero Point on my next bleeding check, in case I forget to do so when the time comes! (Please remind me, in other words.)

I really find Aid to have issues with such a high DC.

It does make things different from PF1 where everybody and their cousin would aid in everything and anything.

I hope to soon see if the Bard's automatic aid truly helps.

They could just have added gated proficiency. Like you can't help if you are not Trained in the skill.
Because a DC 20 is unreachable at low level, and automatic at high level. So it doesn't change the issue, it just forbids anyone to help at low level, and make your trained cousin helps you at high level.

My cousins are not trained, so I am safe.

So, proficiency gating would have been a better solution. Maybe with a DC dependant on the level of the person you help, so it would not be automatic. Anyway, Giggett can't helps as she's not high level enough for that...

I find the DC a bit steep too.
I am not sure why they put it so high.

It is nice that the person being helped can refuse... which I imagine he still could have in PF1 even if not in the rules per se.

The main difference, is that you cannot have multiple people aiding effectively (since it is a typed bonus, unlike PF1), so, other than special things that I imagine will exist re. boosting the bonus, you are capped at +2 now.

Well, a solution would be to remove critical failure on any result but natural 1. I would still have very low chances to help Tamerius, but at least it would not be a "bad thing" to help as the success chances will be higher than the critical failure chances.

We are wading through knee-high glue!

Looks like this fight shot our morale down.

Also our party size...

Statistically it should not reduce more but the threat is still quite present...

sorry to be less talkative than usual, I've just got a new job and started the hiring process and I've also started to learn how to drive...
I try to keep up

No worries, mostly we’re just playing the “is Natsume going to die?” game anyway :P

Congrats' on the new job!
And driving too...
Such a major life change. Bravo!

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Two rabbits, hurt by the Blight, pop their heads out:
"Two carrots to one turnip: she's gonna die."

Grats Tamerius!

@Natsume - on the other side it is not that bad you know. Good view, decent dental, unlimited sick leave ;) They even offered me a keg of gale if I refer a friend to join :D

I think I'm gonna make it after all!

You roll enough dice, eventually you're gonna nail it.

There's a feat for that: Snare Crafting.
Not sure our DM will find that legitimate for us to craft snares without the feat and without the high component cost of doing it.

I don't think my rope trap idea is quite on the "snare" level of sophistication :P mostly it's just a rope that's on fire... and if you need a feat to do that, this game does not give you nearly enough feats

I haven't looked at Snares too much, but can for next time (and the Craft Snares Feat).
But for things like that we can always do something (maybe the Ranger can help?).
I'll look into that for later (you all can if you wish too).

So, what do we do?
Roughly, we took a beating. Perfectly legitimate one, as we were weaker than the opposition. In my opinion, we are underequipped and lacking tactical coordination.

So, first, do we wait for Farol's new character before continuing?
Second, do we start properly equipping ourselves?
Third, what do we do for our tactical demise?

Plaguestone is supposed to be a tough adventure, from what I've heard, and I think the difficult won't go down. I personally don't take pleasure in being monsters' training dummy. So, I'd prefer if we could avoid what happened in the future.

Unless someone wants to do something specific on the way back, my feeling is that what you can take some time off to see how you want to equip and prepare.
Whatever new character arrives.

We can even split this, and first do a kind of semo-ooc talk, as you see how you want to gear up etc..
And, when that is done, with the purchases etc., see about any RP you wish for.

Then you decide if you want to return the three of you, or wait for a 4th to join.

If you go in the three of you I will lower the difficulty of the enemy by 25%.
I have not looked into that yet, but I have read that PF2 has a super good system for doing that (saw GMs talking about how good and easy it is to rescale enemies).
Might be true!

So, say what you want to do.

My feeling:
• we start with some ooc discussion about your goals in purchases and prep' and tactics (like, I think, Giggett needs more flanking for the sneak damage etc.).
• then we can back to any RP needed before you go back-- the 3 of you, or else wait.

Personally, I don't like to have reduced challenge. It reduces the pleasure of victory :)
I'm ok with waiting for Farol.

Flanking is ok, I've adapted.
I would prefer to have some kind of coordination. During this fight, there have been a few moments where we haven't been coordinated because we were not exchanging information properly. When I protected Dragh, I expected him to cast a strong spell to put the enemy down. When Natsume spoke about sausage and noone understood what she was doing. In these situations, maybe could it be possible to "pause" the game, exchanging a few words in roleplay (with maybe a translation in ooc) to choose a strategy instead of choosing a strategy and expect the others to follow it without discussion nor explanation.

In game terms, maybe our characters would spend a small amount of time training to better coordinate themselves, to justify the fact that we could choose strategies on the spot.

For the equipment, I'll buy more Scrolls of Soothe for Giggett. It already saved one life, and I expect them to save a few more.

I expected him to cast a strong spell to put the enemy down.

He is level 2.

The monster had 4 hp left and Dragh had a magic missile memorized. Anyway, I was critisizing myself in choosing a strategy and expect others to follow it.

Oh, you wanted him to attack the other one. I see.

re. changing the monsters, the module is for 4.
And seeing how this first encounter went. I am not sure that going at them w. 3 is the best choice. But no problem if you want it like this.

What means re. ?
Yes, I'm not sure I want to fight them with 3 characters anyway.

@Giggett re. = regarding ;)

Me neither :°P

I did expect someone to ask Natsume what she planned to do with sausage. Didn’t expect to get whipped (I was misinterpreting the distance, I think).

Don’t be afraid to shout suggestions in-character re:battle strategy. Or use our Discord!

I did expect someone to ask Natsume what she planned to do with sausage. Didn’t expect to get whipped (I was misinterpreting the distance, I think).

Don’t be afraid to shout suggestions in-character re:battle strategy. Or use our Discord!

Giggett asked what Natsume was doing, you didn't fully answered.

So I was suggesting the opposite. When we want to do something tactical, we first ask the party, discuss it, and then do it. Not do it, and expect people to ask/follow us.
And right now, I am shouting tons of suggestions regarding battle strategy, and noone understands them... So I'll change my way to do it :)