Niu, is your token where you moved to? Is it correct now?
Just saw this. I'll move my token again.
Ranok, I am keeping an eye on Khonsu's initiative. If an AoO had presented itself, I would have rolled for him.
Niu, you moved it back this morning on your own. You are where you should be. I saw the move across the room last night.
The level loss is not so bad for you. Your DCs for hexes remain the same. Try not to lose another one, though.
*shrug* it is what it is. Maybe I should have stayed in front to pen them in until others could react...
I just realized I forgot to mention that my Aura of Courage class feature provides +4 to all allies within 10ft of me towards saves v. Fear. While I am Immune to fear
That is good to know...and have.
Well... the blindness is going to have zero effect on the wraith, but Niu didn't know that.
I was thinking of wraiths when I was scared of the wights... We are seriously going to need to find some Restoration scrolls or a high level priest.
Ziera, go ahead and roll for your readied actions when you declare them. The NPCs will not take your rolls into account. The last three times they walked into known hits. Just speeds things up. Thanks, darling.
Ranok, want to make sure you are comfortable with your new blade. A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against such foes.
So....
Base longsword is 1d8 (medium) Critical 19-20/x2 Type slashing
Yours is +1 and bane
Against an undead, you are +3 to hit and 1d8 + 3 + 2d6 + your stats
And you are up.
... And I continue to roll bricks, lol.
Fyi, Ranok has second chance, which allows them one reroll for a failed save per day. Just in case you have any hidden saves for me.
Will do
Check this out.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rule s#TOC-Energy-Drain-Su- states "On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent."
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/special-abilities/#TOC-Energy-Drain- and-Negative-Levels states "A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."
Thoughts? I ran this past an absolute rules guru and am awaiting his response. Will let you know what he says.
This is in reference to the the wights. Wights do not have Su drain energy, but their attacks do.
I saw both of those statements myself and got confused.
After thinking about it, I concluded that the description in the Bestiary is the primary reference when dealing with monster abilities, which is why we need to rush back to town for Restoration spells.
I had hoped I was wrong, which is why I asked the question earlier.
I have not yet found any effect that would create truly temporary levels, so I am not sure when the rule from Core would actually apply.
Hmmm... Now that I look at it, the Wraith doesn't actually have the Energy Drain special attack, it simply does 1d6 negative energy damage. It actually describes it as damage instead of drain
(The wight does have an Energy Drain special attack).
Perhaps that is a distinction?
I am with you, Niu. Drain is a key word as is Su. The posts I saw in the forum all determine it is permanent after a fail.
This rules guru I know could have several PHDs if he had put that time and energy into something other than D&D and pathfinder.
Restoration is not cheap. You probably do not have the funds. Looks like you are gonna have to fight it out and level up.
Now that I look at it, the Wraith doesn't actually have the Energy Drain
But the link refers to the bestiary, as does the wight.
Now that I look at it, the Wraith doesn't actually have the Energy DrainBut the link refers to the bestiary, as does the wight.
Right, the wight definitely does energy drain, and my level definitely needs restoration today.
Perhaps the wraith is actually doing energy damage (instead of drain) and that damage can either be healed through lesser restoration or healing.
FYI: It appears there is a save to negate the CON drain.
As for the expense of Restoration, if we get it within 24 hours, the cost is only 100gp plus the cost of spellcasting (and that heals ALL negative levels). If we wait for it to become permanent, then we need 1000gp for each level.
FYI: It appears there is a save to negate the CON drain.
What do you have there?
From the Wraith Bestiary entry:
Constitution Drain (Su)
Creatures hit by a wraith’s touch attack must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points. The save DC is Charisma-based.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
How did I miss that? I need a DC 17 fortitude check from Rhen and Ziera.
The answer from my rules guru was quite interesting and along the lines of our discussion. Basically, it is gray enough that I could choose either method of recovery on the lost levels. I would rather give you a daily roll than pursue restoration for level 5 characters. Allows us to move on with the game.
I am absolutely fine with this ruling, it is far better than the alternative.
WRT the point I was making last night about energy damage, I don't think I was being very clear, so let me try to restate with references:
Melee slam +4 (1d4+1 plus energy drain)
Special Attacks create spawn, energy drain
(1 level, DC 14)
Notice that the Energy Drain Special Attack is specified and the Melee Attack specifies "energy drain".
Melee incorporeal touch +6 (1d6 negative energy plus 1d6 Con drain)
Special Attack create spawn
Notice that Energy Drain is NOT specified in the attack or as a Special Attack.
I don't think that a wraith actually drains levels. I think the damage is Elemental Negative Energy (like Inflict Wounds). So, 1d6 elemental energy damage plus the really nasty 1d6 Con drain.
I read that one correctly and that is why I ignored your response. I have been reducing hp by the negative energy hits from the wraith. Con is drain and they now have a save. Thanks for that. Below is the response from my rules guru friend. Thought you might like to see his thought process on what we just went through.
Guru says:
Wow, this is a very interesting conundrum. Essentially, it appears we have two contradictory rules from two different sources. The first source is from the Monster Manual which gives specific rules that govern creatures. The second is from the Core Rule book which gives general information on special abilities. There is an argument that the more severe universal monster verbiage supersedes the special ability verbiage becasue it is specific only to a monster's energy drain attack rather than the various other sources of drain such as spell and what not. They created the universal rules to eliminate having to reprint the rules every time an ability pops up. That is why the (Su) descriptor isn't in the wight stat block. The universal rules establish that energy drain is a supernatural ability. RAW, I think you can end the discussion right there.
However, I think there is reason for a bit more discussion. Let's start with the common truths. First, a wight drains one level each hit immediately. There is no immediate save. That is clarified by the designers. The DC listed is for the eventual save to remove the negative level. Second, a monster gain 5 temporary HP when it drains a level. This is not mentioned in the special ability entry because it does not apply to all energy drain attacks, only creature attacks. Likewise, the rule for critical hits draining double the levels only appears in the universal monster rules becasue that rule does not apply to all potential energy drain sources. Finally, the special ability language establishes that "some abilities and spells bestow permanent level drain on a creature." While they use Raise Dead as an example, they could just as well have used the wight's energy drain attack.
Now I say all that only to establish that I understand what the rules state and how they interact. In my personal opinion, and the way I apply the rules to MY game, I use the less severe rules established in the special ability section. That is just personal preference. I still give creatures 5 temporary HP and double the drain on a crit, but I keep the recovery rules more lenient. That just fits my play style and the style of the groups I play with. If I were to run a grittier game, I would totally be more hard nosed about the recovery, but I just tend to stay in the realm of pulp adventure and high fantasy.
Nice find! It is good to stretch the old rules muscle now and again.
I read that one correctly and that is why I ignored your response. I have been reducing hp by the negative energy hits from the wraith. Con is drain and they now have a save. Thanks for that. Below is the response from my rules guru friend. Thought you might like to see his thought process on what we just went through.
Naturally, I was misinterpreting what was going on. Situation normal.
Sorry for keeping this thread going with my poor comprehension. :)
LOL. Enjoyed it and stretched the rules muscle.
Niu, I took note of another important rule when looking into the con damage. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points....
But it does not stack. So, until all of those 5 hps are taken away, it does not get 5 more.
If Ziera has not posted by the time I finish my coffee in the morning, I will bot her.
Niu, I took note of another important rule when looking into the con damage. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points....
But it does not stack. So, until all of those 5 hps are taken away, it does not get 5 more.
Interesting... I would not have suspected that.
This is all very interesting. These monsters are as complicated in game as they seem to be in "real life."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Figured I should use smite cause this thing sucks..literally
I need to buy herolab, lol.
Why would you buy hero lab when pcgen is free? All you have to do is say pcgen, pcgen, pcgen and ....
I enjoy Herolab and have used it for about 8 years now, never had any major issues and you can get a lot of the 3rd party stuff on there as well.
I like that Hero Lab lays out everything almost like a character sheet where PCgen just puts it out line by line.
I like that I can apply conditions in HeroLab and trust it to (almost always) apply all of the little rules that I might not be thinking of.
For instance, applying the negative level in this game. It also reduces my Initiative modifier. I didn't think of that (though it makes perfect sense once the reminder was given).
I don't know if PCgen handles conditions and little modifiers like that. I hate, hate, hate that I have to pay twice for my rulebooks though.
I wish Pathfinder had something like DNDBeyond where I can buy my digital copies of the books and get the character gen/rules processing all in one place.
applying the negative level in this game. It also reduces my Initiative modifier
Is it applying the pathfinder level reduction penalties or actually lowering your character level?
Pathfinder Level reduction Penalties, Hero Lab I find ties most things together in a new little bow.
applying the negative level in this game. It also reduces my Initiative modifierIs it applying the pathfinder level reduction penalties or actually lowering your character level?
I applied an adjustment of 1 negative level. It automatically reduces all of my ability checks, etc by 1. The same is is true of the HP loss, and handling all the little things that happen for ability loss.
If I were GMing a Home game, I would definitely want those features to keep my player's rolls in check.
I just looked at PCGen (current version 6.08.00 RC6). It will apply conditions including energy drain. Always did that manually in the past, though.
cool. I am unfamiliar with PCGen, I'll have to give it a look before spending any more money on Hero Lab.
If I purchased any rulebooks for it, I do not recall doing so. It will export to a character sheet pdf with several optional formats or you can view that in a tab. Works for me, but I never tried herolab.
I've downloaded pcgen on my phone to check out. I'll have to look into all of it later. Sounds promising
I cannot speak of the phone version. Should be the same since it is java based.
The key is to load the other relevant sources. By default it will load Pathinder RPG for Players which includes Core Rulebook Advanced Player's Guide Advanced Race Guide Bestiary 2 (Player Options Only) Ultimate Combat Ultimate Magic Ultimate Equipment Ultimate Intrigue Ultimate Campaign Advanced Class Guide.
If you are an unchained character, you have to go to Sources...Select Sources...Advanced....Paizo Sources...and then add Pathfinder Unchained supplement.
There are many in there, but about the only other time I have had to load a supplement was for an Oracle Archetype that was in the Ultimate Wildnerness supplement.
For the Lunar Oracle, you may need to load the Blood of the Moon supplement.
Feel free to ask any questions, it has a curve and things are not always where you expect them to be. But, I have always found them. It can export to paizo text format so you can copy/paste into a stat block in your profile.
For the record, there is no discrepancy in the rules regarding level drain. We all missed it. There is no save for permanent level drain short of restoration unless you are a player in this module with me as your GM. Worked out just fine. I stand by my misguided but proper ruling.
Ranok, you rolled a 17 to hit. The wraith's AC is 18. When I double checked to make sure you did not miss anything, I came up with +11 to hit. Not + 12.
BAB+4, STR+3, +1Bane=+3 Bless +1 = 11
Am I missing something?
+2 flank with Rhen. I was not counting bless though, I thought you said it was gone before we encountered this fella.
Niu said he would zap the wand, so I included it in the current effects.
LOL. Guess I found that +1 I was looking for.
he did that is why I wasn't adding it in to my rolls
Ranok says as he begins to ready himself for one more room.
There is no reason to believe this is the last room. Careful...
Niu, I delved a little further into PCGen. All of the rulebooks (datasets) are included with the install. They can only do datasets that are open license and it appears that Paizo is. There will of course be a lag from release to you getting those datasets. You can actually create your own datasets with a text editor. Being a programmer, this should be easy for you.
I found a player companion dataset that is published by Paizo and not included. It is the source for a feat I was after. Just create your own dataset and add that ability with the feat attribute.