Revenge of the Kobold King

Game Master Seldlon the Swift

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Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld
Igar The Terrible wrote:
Niu, is your token where you moved to? Is it correct now?

Just saw this. I'll move my token again.


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Ranok, I am keeping an eye on Khonsu's initiative. If an AoO had presented itself, I would have rolled for him.


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Niu, you moved it back this morning on your own. You are where you should be. I saw the move across the room last night.

The level loss is not so bad for you. Your DCs for hexes remain the same. Try not to lose another one, though.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld

*shrug* it is what it is. Maybe I should have stayed in front to pen them in until others could react...


Female Human Paladin 5th HP:60 |AC:18[T:12,FF:16]|F:+9|R:+7|W:+10|CMB:+7|CMB:19|Init:+2|Perception:+6|Glaive+10,Dagger +7,Cestus+7,Warhammer+7,Longsword+7[+8].Comp.Longbow+7, 1-2/2-/3-/4-

I just realized I forgot to mention that my Aura of Courage class feature provides +4 to all allies within 10ft of me towards saves v. Fear. While I am Immune to fear


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That is good to know...and have.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld

Well... the blindness is going to have zero effect on the wraith, but Niu didn't know that.

I was thinking of wraiths when I was scared of the wights... We are seriously going to need to find some Restoration scrolls or a high level priest.


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Ziera, go ahead and roll for your readied actions when you declare them. The NPCs will not take your rolls into account. The last three times they walked into known hits. Just speeds things up. Thanks, darling.


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Ranok, want to make sure you are comfortable with your new blade. A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon’s enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against such foes.

So....
Base longsword is 1d8 (medium) Critical 19-20/x2 Type slashing
Yours is +1 and bane

Against an undead, you are +3 to hit and 1d8 + 3 + 2d6 + your stats

And you are up.


Male half orc barbarian/2 Oracle(lunar)/3 HP 67/67 | AC 20 F 13 T 17 | F 8, R 5, W 5 | Init (-2) | Darkvision 60' | Percep +14 | CMB +7 | CMD 17 | Spells: 1st 0/6 | Rage: 1/13

... And I continue to roll bricks, lol.
Fyi, Ranok has second chance, which allows them one reroll for a failed save per day. Just in case you have any hidden saves for me.


Female Human Paladin 5th HP:60 |AC:18[T:12,FF:16]|F:+9|R:+7|W:+10|CMB:+7|CMB:19|Init:+2|Perception:+6|Glaive+10,Dagger +7,Cestus+7,Warhammer+7,Longsword+7[+8].Comp.Longbow+7, 1-2/2-/3-/4-

Will do


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Check this out.

d20pfsrd bestiary wrote:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rule s#TOC-Energy-Drain-Su- states "On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level becomes permanent."
d20pfsrd gamemastering wrote:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/special-abilities/#TOC-Energy-Drain- and-Negative-Levels states "A creature with temporary negative levels receives a new saving throw to remove the negative level each day. The DC of this save is the same as the effect that caused the negative levels."

Thoughts? I ran this past an absolute rules guru and am awaiting his response. Will let you know what he says.

This is in reference to the the wights. Wights do not have Su drain energy, but their attacks do.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld

I saw both of those statements myself and got confused.

After thinking about it, I concluded that the description in the Bestiary is the primary reference when dealing with monster abilities, which is why we need to rush back to town for Restoration spells.

I had hoped I was wrong, which is why I asked the question earlier.

I have not yet found any effect that would create truly temporary levels, so I am not sure when the rule from Core would actually apply.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld

Hmmm... Now that I look at it, the Wraith doesn't actually have the Energy Drain special attack, it simply does 1d6 negative energy damage. It actually describes it as damage instead of drain

(The wight does have an Energy Drain special attack).

Perhaps that is a distinction?


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I am with you, Niu. Drain is a key word as is Su. The posts I saw in the forum all determine it is permanent after a fail.

This rules guru I know could have several PHDs if he had put that time and energy into something other than D&D and pathfinder.


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Restoration is not cheap. You probably do not have the funds. Looks like you are gonna have to fight it out and level up.


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Niu wrote:
Now that I look at it, the Wraith doesn't actually have the Energy Drain

But the link refers to the bestiary, as does the wight.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld
Igar The Terrible wrote:
Niu wrote:
Now that I look at it, the Wraith doesn't actually have the Energy Drain
But the link refers to the bestiary, as does the wight.

Right, the wight definitely does energy drain, and my level definitely needs restoration today.

Perhaps the wraith is actually doing energy damage (instead of drain) and that damage can either be healed through lesser restoration or healing.

FYI: It appears there is a save to negate the CON drain.

As for the expense of Restoration, if we get it within 24 hours, the cost is only 100gp plus the cost of spellcasting (and that heals ALL negative levels). If we wait for it to become permanent, then we need 1000gp for each level.


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Niu wrote:
FYI: It appears there is a save to negate the CON drain.

What do you have there?


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld

From the Wraith Bestiary entry:

Constitution Drain (Su)

Creatures hit by a wraith’s touch attack must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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How did I miss that? I need a DC 17 fortitude check from Rhen and Ziera.

The answer from my rules guru was quite interesting and along the lines of our discussion. Basically, it is gray enough that I could choose either method of recovery on the lost levels. I would rather give you a daily roll than pursue restoration for level 5 characters. Allows us to move on with the game.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld

I am absolutely fine with this ruling, it is far better than the alternative.

WRT the point I was making last night about energy damage, I don't think I was being very clear, so let me try to restate with references:

Bestiary p.276 Wight wrote:

Melee slam +4 (1d4+1 plus energy drain)

Special Attacks create spawn, energy drain
(1 level, DC 14)

Notice that the Energy Drain Special Attack is specified and the Melee Attack specifies "energy drain".

Bestiary p.281 Wraith wrote:

Melee incorporeal touch +6 (1d6 negative energy plus 1d6 Con drain)

Special Attack create spawn

Notice that Energy Drain is NOT specified in the attack or as a Special Attack.

I don't think that a wraith actually drains levels. I think the damage is Elemental Negative Energy (like Inflict Wounds). So, 1d6 elemental energy damage plus the really nasty 1d6 Con drain.


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I read that one correctly and that is why I ignored your response. I have been reducing hp by the negative energy hits from the wraith. Con is drain and they now have a save. Thanks for that. Below is the response from my rules guru friend. Thought you might like to see his thought process on what we just went through.


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Guru says:
Wow, this is a very interesting conundrum. Essentially, it appears we have two contradictory rules from two different sources. The first source is from the Monster Manual which gives specific rules that govern creatures. The second is from the Core Rule book which gives general information on special abilities. There is an argument that the more severe universal monster verbiage supersedes the special ability verbiage becasue it is specific only to a monster's energy drain attack rather than the various other sources of drain such as spell and what not. They created the universal rules to eliminate having to reprint the rules every time an ability pops up. That is why the (Su) descriptor isn't in the wight stat block. The universal rules establish that energy drain is a supernatural ability. RAW, I think you can end the discussion right there.

However, I think there is reason for a bit more discussion. Let's start with the common truths. First, a wight drains one level each hit immediately. There is no immediate save. That is clarified by the designers. The DC listed is for the eventual save to remove the negative level. Second, a monster gain 5 temporary HP when it drains a level. This is not mentioned in the special ability entry because it does not apply to all energy drain attacks, only creature attacks. Likewise, the rule for critical hits draining double the levels only appears in the universal monster rules becasue that rule does not apply to all potential energy drain sources. Finally, the special ability language establishes that "some abilities and spells bestow permanent level drain on a creature." While they use Raise Dead as an example, they could just as well have used the wight's energy drain attack.

Now I say all that only to establish that I understand what the rules state and how they interact. In my personal opinion, and the way I apply the rules to MY game, I use the less severe rules established in the special ability section. That is just personal preference. I still give creatures 5 temporary HP and double the drain on a crit, but I keep the recovery rules more lenient. That just fits my play style and the style of the groups I play with. If I were to run a grittier game, I would totally be more hard nosed about the recovery, but I just tend to stay in the realm of pulp adventure and high fantasy.

Nice find! It is good to stretch the old rules muscle now and again.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld
Igar The Terrible wrote:

I read that one correctly and that is why I ignored your response. I have been reducing hp by the negative energy hits from the wraith. Con is drain and they now have a save. Thanks for that. Below is the response from my rules guru friend. Thought you might like to see his thought process on what we just went through.

Naturally, I was misinterpreting what was going on. Situation normal.

Sorry for keeping this thread going with my poor comprehension. :)


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LOL. Enjoyed it and stretched the rules muscle.


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Niu, I took note of another important rule when looking into the con damage. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points....

But it does not stack. So, until all of those 5 hps are taken away, it does not get 5 more.


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If Ziera has not posted by the time I finish my coffee in the morning, I will bot her.


Human Witch 5(4) | HP 23/35(30) | AC 13(17) T 13 FF 10(14) | F +1 R +4 W +6 | Conditions: None | 1/1 Levitate 4/5 Fly | Init +11 Perc +8 |
Spells:
0 - Det. Mgc, Det. Poison, Light, Rd. Mgc.; 1 - Burning Handsx2, Enlarge Person, Fumbletongue, Ray of Enf; 2 - Agg. Thunder, Life Pact, Web; 3 - Disp. Mgc, St. Cld
Igar The Terrible wrote:

Niu, I took note of another important rule when looking into the con damage. On each successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points....

But it does not stack. So, until all of those 5 hps are taken away, it does not get 5 more.

Interesting... I would not have suspected that.


Male half orc barbarian/2 Oracle(lunar)/3 HP 67/67 | AC 20 F 13 T 17 | F 8, R 5, W 5 | Init (-2) | Darkvision 60' | Percep +14 | CMB +7 | CMD 17 | Spells: 1st 0/6 | Rage: 1/13

This is all very interesting. These monsters are as complicated in game as they seem to be in "real life."


Female Human Paladin 5th HP:60 |AC:18[T:12,FF:16]|F:+9|R:+7|W:+10|CMB:+7|CMB:19|Init:+2|Perception:+6|Glaive+10,Dagger +7,Cestus+7,Warhammer+7,Longsword+7[+8].Comp.Longbow+7, 1-2/2-/3-/4-

Figured I should use smite cause this thing sucks..literally

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