All for Immortality, HARDCORE MODE! (Inactive)

Game Master Matthais777

Heh.

Tried to make the circles the proper size for the effects... but the map is note quite square!

Ras'al's light source is smaller than the darkness one, so included his in there... so you can see where the darkness gets canceled (Or will get canceled, once his turn comes up, and he can pull it out).

The inner yellow circle is normal light, the outer yellow circle is dim light.

Anyway, resized the underlying map a little, so the circles look more like circles. Perhaps I'm a little compulsive...
Still a little off, but not as obvious now. =)

Hey, I appreciate it. Some nasty life stuff came up, so i've been a little more scatterbrained than usual (Like you guys couldn't tell...) and i appreciate those kinda quality of life things... i could NOT get the stupid map to size correctly no matter what i did.

When the maps are like that, I edit them in Paint. One dimension needs to be expanded by a certain percentage, though I can't remember what. But it happens with most of the full page maps.

I do not know if I will be able to post this weekend or not. Family event may use up all of my time.

And who are we waiting on at the moment? We seem to have hit a lull... and perhaps its because folks don't know their supposed to be doing something =)

Perhaps an init/turn tracker update might help?

Seconded. I'm pretty sure it's not my turn, but not clear on who exactly is up or what precisely the situation is.

What does the enemy look like? Which Knowledge skill to learn about it?

The enemy looks like a robed human with wings made of void and starlight unfurled from his wings... funnily enough, they look a little like the opposite of Teriq's fire wings. Your knowledge local of 5 or better ;) identifies him as human, but other than that he's a great big question mark.

Dorje and Ras are both up. Once they've gone, it'll be our final shambler's turn.

I keep getting the backtrack error while trying to edit my post, so I'm just going to post it here instead.

You cannot target a creature you cannot see, so the "obscuring mist" might protect Lavode as well. However, I imagine this caster can pass the spellcraft check to identify a silent image, giving him that auto save with a +4 bonus, so that might be unimportant (illusionists love stylized spell).

@Yajima: That's pretty much the whole reasoning behind my action. Anything that requires line of sight--so all mundane and almost all magic attacks--just got nixed.

Assuming it is normally a DC 0 Perception check to notice spellcasting, that still means a DC 34 check to even be able to roll Spellcraft. Then there's the persistent Will save.

Personally I don't think persistent really applies to disbelieving an illusion as the save isn't a part of the spell, more like a side mechanic involved with that type of spell, but it might be a little bit of a grey area.

Personally I don't think persistent really applies to disbelieving an illusion as the save isn't a part of the spell, more like a side mechanic involved with that type of spell, but it might be a little bit of a grey area.

What are you smoking? And why aren't you sharing?

I'm serious, a Silent Image is very different than a Hold Person; one does not have a save upon cast, it simply exists unless interacted with, at which point you save to ignore the illusion, the other forces a save right away the moment the spell is cast and does nothing if the save is successful.

Look at the wording of Persistent Spell: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell...

A creature looking at a silent image is not targeted by it and it may not be inside its area. Does interacting with an illusion with your hand or face place you inside of its area? Kind of. Does throwing a rock threw a silent image of a wall? No.

...it must make another saving throw against the effect. If a creature fails this second saving throw, it suffers the full effects of the spell, as if it had failed its first saving throw.

What are the full effects of failing a save vs a silent image? You believe it? The wording heavily implies that the effect only has one saving throw, but you could interact with an illusion over and over again until you disbelieve it.

Look at the wording of Persistent Spell: Whenever a creature targeted by a persistent spell or within its area succeeds on its saving throw against the spell...

A creature looking at a silent image is not targeted by it and it may not be inside its area.

Okay, that makes much more sense than "the save isn't a part of the spell".

And I'm actually inclined to agree with you now. If a creature isn't actually in the area of effect, then silent image can't be persistent.

@GM: What do you think? Would you let me retcon as a non-persistent casting?

I'd be more inclined to focus on the

Spells that do not require a saving throw to resist or lessen the spell's effect do not benefit from this feat.

part of the feat description.

Neither resisting or lessening could be said to apply.
Some would say disbelieving is a different thing.

Remember, Lavode is flying 200 feet in the air after his escape teleport. From the rest of you, sure, but why move closer when there is a handy target?

Teriq is not the only one who forgot that! Added a height marker to the map, to avoid a repeat.

Yeah, i'd let you'd retcon that part of it, it's just a change in spell level.

As for why the arrow thing doesn't work, it's basically as i put it in the spell description... HP is a mental construct that represents how a fighter is holding up. Having more HP doesn't mean a 20th level fighter can take an arrow through the skull, even though a critical longbow shot may kill the first level fighter. The 20th level fighter just takes a cut from a crit shot instead of getting his head skewered because his amazing fighting ability let's him react like that.

Similarly, hitting with a arrow doesn't imply that you dug a arrow so deep he can't pull it out. It means you affected him and reduced his ability to fight in some way. Maybe it's a cut. Maybe it's through an arm and he pulls it out. Maybe you struck his armor so hard he felt the hit anyways. Point is, while his HP decreased that doesn't necessarily correlate to how your strike hit him.

No worries on nixing the arrow idea, that was as much for flavor as anything else.

GM, I need to call shenanigans on falling to get free movement thing. Not only is it super cheesy, it also is against the rules.

If he decides to stop flapping... then he is intentionally failing his fly check, and starts falling. That parts fine.

But once he starts falling he can only stop with a second fly check (DC 10)... which he can *only* make if he didn't start falling due to a failed fly check.

Since he is falling due said failed check (intentional in this case), he falls the entire way and hits the ground.

*buts in for the first time in rules discussion*

I have never seen that interpretation of the rules. I’ve seen many gms do this, just having to roll concentration mid fall.

If GM's are doing that, they are using house rules. Nothing in the rules says that's ok to do. And in fact, the rules on flying that cover that sort of thing specifically say its not ok.

If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.

Actually never mind.

A character cannot cast a spell while falling, unless the fall is greater than 500 feet or the spell is an immediate action, such as feather fall. Casting a spell while falling requires a concentration check with a DC equal to 20 + the spell’s level. Casting teleport or a similar spell while falling does not end your momentum, it just changes your location, meaning that you still take falling damage, even if you arrive atop a solid surface.

I think it’s becuase you need to take into account that casting a spell takes 6 seconds (a standard action), so I think the other interpretation of this rule is, how far would you fall in a round? Technically, you don’t reach full velocity untill a certain point in the fall, but still.

Anyway, that was my two cents. This is hardmode and a really cool scene narrative wise so, whatever the GM decides I’m cool with.

Hm. Ras's point is more at issue for me here, cause 500 feet in six seconds seemed a lot. I thought he'd have the ability to make it with the concentration check, which he can make pretty easily. I mean, you fall 60 feet in a round with feather fall, i figured you'd fall like, 100 feet or so even if he wasn't spellcasting disappear.

I guess I didn't take into account just how fast falling would work!!

In that case I'll have to make a small change. Sadly, he won't get to do the nifty free falling trick, and will just have to take a smack to the head from Yajima on a AOO as he leaves his space and leaves the silence bubble.

Dorje and Yajim are out of range to send messages to (its just medium range)

I thought Dorje didn't fly all the way up there, because the baddie disappeared first?

If he's popping to another plane to heal/buff etc... that's going to make this a little onerous.

Based on the info Ras'al figured out, it is likely the Astral plane, and the accuracy issue is a non-issue. At least he can't see what we're doing from there, like the ethereal plane would... though given the Things teleported right beside each of us... perhaps that's not true anymore either! Hrmm...

Not sure if we have a way to go after him.
The only summoned critters that can shift to other planes, are all going to the ethereal... and I don't think any of them work when its summoned anyway, not to mention they are all the evil critters... so alignment issues. 8(

Hmm... are any of the Things still alive? Perhaps we could 'convince' one of them to take us over?

Those thing were trying to take us somewhere... if they did the same to the caravan, there might be valuable info there.

We might want to check for signs of life/stabilize one or two, just in case?

Or if someone has nothing better to do, perhaps find whatever he cast that deeper darkness on, and bury it... in case he manages to kill the daylight spell somehow.

Just pondering, OOC.

What did you cast that daylight spell on anyhow? On yourself? Cause if your moving, it'll cause some deeper darkness bits to reappear, and that could get tricky. Well, trickier than things already are.

Nah, on some random rock/rubble/sand at his feet where he was when he cast it. It should be stationary at this point.

edit: put a little yellow sun where I was standing when I cast it. Could be on any of those adjacent columns if you want it more clearly defined.

What did you cast that daylight spell on anyhow? On yourself? Cause if your moving, it'll cause some deeper darkness bits to reappear, and that could get tricky. Well, trickier than things already are.

Remember, I also dropped an Oil of Daylight to shatter on the ground where I was at the time. That just happened to be pretty close to the center of the DD.

you lose your readied action since you didn't specify what spell you where casting anyways. :P

I have always treated the types of actions listed in the CRB as the actions which need to be specified, i.e. possible standard actions of:

I thought you had to specify what exactly you were going to do on a readied action, not just the terms listed above.

@Yajima: The CRB doesn't say that anywhere, and what little it does say implies that all you need to specify is "standard, move, swift, or free".

It's just the way I've always done it for any game I've played in.

"I ready an action to cast Create Pit if any enemy turns the corner into my sight." for example, but if that's all the book says, then I guess it really needs a rewrite because I think that is far too vague.

I guess it really needs a rewrite because I think that is far too vague.

Seconded.

Unfortunately, once we start such rewrites, the CRB would be 1,000 pages before we finished.

And again, please remember to check ranges on spells being cast!
On both sides!

Also, do I get my readied action? He clearly has reappeared.
And one can assume he is exactly in the center of that black circle.

So figuring out a general location isn't too hard. But of course, you pick a corner to center spells, so realisticaly, it could be the center square, or any adjacent square... so 1 in 9 chance of picking the right one =)

If I may add my two cents, friends.

I know we are playing play by post, and honestly this is my first experience in such a complex high level game over this medium, but we have to trust what the GM is doing is correct. The amount of rules being thrown around is a little much, and honestly it seems to be slowing down the flow of the game. We have to trust that the GM is playing by the rules, which is in his right as he must do so being a Pathfinder Society game. Remember, we are playing Hardmode, so there are things happening which might be written into the scenario which are outside the normal play parameters.

To GM: My only quarrel, is that the enemy is casting a spell as soon as he enters our plane. Assuming that it takes a standard action for him to cast a spell to take him in between planes, he should be ending his turn immediately after he appears. Assuming that he has a way of doing so as a move action, I would argue that similar rules exist:

From the Material Plane, you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination. Plane shift transports creatures instantaneously and then ends.

Conjuration spells always have a weakness with them, and they are very difficult to use precisely. He should not have any control over where he comes out of, unless there are things written into the scenario. Then again, i am happy to take your word for it as you did say you are trying to kill us.

To Players: I agree with your understanding of readied actions, and yes, even though the target is in deaper darkness, we can pin point where he is. However, there needs to be line of effect for certain spells to trigger. However, i cannot see anywhere that someone actually specified what their readied action was. For a readied action to trigger properly, the GM needs to know what the action you are doing is. Casting a spell is not enough of a description since you do not get to decide on what the spell is after the trigger happens. By that interpretation, i believe that the readied action would not go off.

Aditionally:

You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.

So i would argue that we cannot cast things like glitterdust into the darkness as we cannot point where we cannot see. Edit, never mind this point, i am wrong.

I will try to stay away from rules from now on.

Note, Teriq is the only one by my understanding and reading what people wrote on their turns who would get a readied action. Though with a 50% miss chance.

Ras'al... line of effect is different than line of sight.
You have line of effect into a darkened area.
You don't have line of effect through a wall.

And your Plane shift questions I think were partially answered by the (spoilered) info you learned early on in the encounter.

@Ras, it's because he's cheating by using the Astral Plane to cast a quickened plane shift so that he arrives in your plane with the rest of his turn left.

As for the rest... Look, this is hardmode. I am 100% doing my best here, and I want you guys to have a fair shot, and that means holding me accountable when I make obvious mistakes. But that also means that I can't DO anything if you want to see behind the screen of every move. I think i'm being pretty generous allowing readied actions to go off, but in the future, can we have it be specific so that I can keep things moving? Cause all these half set readied actions are really jamming things up.

The loss of remaining actions is actually a function of dimension door, rather than teleportation magic in general. And we already figured out that there is some sort of anchor here, which improves plane shifting accuracy.

And yes, I am fine with making readied actions more specific.

GM, please check ranges.

Destruction

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Since it looks like this guy is level 15 (based on some healing you did earlier) ... that means he has to be 60 feet away to cast Desruction on anyone.

He is currently 120' up and 40' over from Teriq... which means he's 126 feet away from me (in a straight line).

Even if he did a single move first, he'd still be out of range.

Oh, and it was persistent glitterdust, so he'd need to save twice.

I have no idea if I know where the enemy is or not, even with a 32 perception. Let me know if I am able to pinpoint his square or see him for some reason. Glitterdust doesn't help in darkness because, well, there is no light to glitter with.

Sorry, I'm at pathfinder irl right now. But when he appeared he moved 60 feet diagonally. My math put him at close enough to cast it, but I'm bad at Pythagorean theorem. >.< I think I did 5 per level not every other level.

Since the bad guy wouldn't make that mistake, he'll cast insanity instead (longer range and not auto kill). You would not die, but instead be permanently confused. I'll make a appropriate post correcting when I get home.

If that's the case, and you use the same roll.

My save goes up to a 23 (2 extra for will, 1 because its an enchantment, and 1 because its a confusion effect)

Oh! Those extra bonuses will make the save, your fine.

GM, it was a persistent spell. He does have to pass 2 will saves to not be blinded. If he fails one of them he is blinded
Note: It is debatable if he has to make 2 saves on succeeding rounds to get rid of the blindness. I am ok with either interpretation. The rules just aren't perfectly clear.

... Glitterdust doesn't help in darkness because, well, there is no light to glitter with.

"...

All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades.
..."

Doesn't just reflect ambient light. The victim sparkles even in the darkness.

@GM: How far am I from the edge of the darkness?

I don't agree with that interpretation of glitterdust. Nothing about the spell has a light descriptor or implies that the creatures magically glow. Being a conjuration (creation) spell means it literally makes shiny golden dust and something being "shiny" doesn't matter in pitch black darkness because there is no light to reflect off of the dust.

It's right there in the description. It doesn't say shiny or reflective.

... continues to sparkle until it fades.

Fireworks sparkle. Christmas lights sparkle. Stars sparkle. Something that gives off light can fade.

Mirrors don't sparkle. They can however reflect sparkling light. They also don't fade. Things that don't give off light can't fade.

Linguistics is a funny thing, I would never say any of those things sparkle, I would say sequenins, coins, jewels, and most reflective things sparkle, but not anything that is a source of light inherently. Most of the things you listed fall into the category of twinkle, which requires the object to be a light source in my opinion because it is the glowing and fading of light from the source. Fireworks are just explosions and I wouldn't call them either words because I wouldn't call a bomb or a volcano sparkly.

GM call, but Yajima will not accept glitterdust as a way to find the enemy because even if glitterdust did generate light, it's not a higher spell level than deeper darkness so it is suppressed anyway.

GM call, in this case, is that while they do "Sparkle" it will not help you see in the deeper darkness. Both because the "Sparkle" would be suppressed by the magic of the deeper darkness, and because I can't imagine that a "Sparkle" would be enough to see by. It outlines him, yes, so invisibility is ruined, but he's still hidden in the darkness because that shine won't reach far enough away from him to be visible.

GM call, in this case, is that while they do "Sparkle" it will not help you see in the deeper darkness. Both because the "Sparkle" would be suppressed by the magic of the deeper darkness, and because I can't imagine that a "Sparkle" would be enough to see by. It outlines him, yes, so invisibility is ruined, but he's still hidden in the darkness because that shine won't reach far enough away from him to be visible by anyone.