@Josh- sorry, just realized I never really answered your question about finesse training... Yes, if you have spear dancing spiral by 3rd level you can pick your chosen polearm for finesse training.
@Oyzar- I didn't have time to look at an inspired blade VMC, but I'll post the swashbuckler below (if I have time tomorrow I'll work on the archetype). As for questions 1&2- no to both, sorry.
3rd level- Swashbuckler's finesse, as the standard class feature. If you have already selected weapon finesse you may retrain it at no cost.
7th level- Panache. You gain the amateur swashbuckler feat, but there is no restriction on which first level deeds you may select. If you already have this feat you retrain it to extra panache at no cost. You count as a swashbuckler for the purpose of taking extra panache multiple times.
11th level- Charmed Life, as a 2nd level swashbuckler (never gain additional uses).
15th level- Improved Deeds- select any one additional deed to use with your panache. This deed must be available to a 3rd level swashbuckler and your effective swashbuckler level is equal to half your character level.
19th level- Greater Deeds- as Improved Deeds, but you may select any deed available to a 7th level swashbuckler.
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Kenoichi Harida wasn't born to a wealthy family, nor a politically connected one. He was born, rather, to a soldier and a seamstress. The Haridas were loyal to the emperor, and to the empire.
Daochi Harida was a proud, but broken, man, who had seen too many horrors in war to ever assimilate back into the quiet village of Henchou successfully. Kenoichi had grown up hearing tales of his father's valor in battle, but the broken man who returned from the same battles was no hero to his son.
Kenoichi, therefore, was gladdened when his parents sent him off to apprentice with Master Chao Tsuneo, a renowned smith of arms and armor for the empire's armies.
It was Master Tsuneo who instilled in Kenoichi a fervor for Hou Tsensu (Gorum). With the proper protection of the finest steel and skill, a swordsman could be as close to a god as possible for a mortal, deciding the fate of those who would stand against him.
Some of the crueler aspects of Hou Tsensu never appealed to Kenoichi, but he has pledged himself to the pursuit of the perfect moment- the moment of victory in battle.
He has been a smith and soldier, and later an adventurer and soldier of fortune. His military career was ended prematurely during a skirmish in which he was the only survivor. His superiors, not believing that one so low-born could have defeated the enemy when his noble-born commander had fallen early in the fight, branded him a coward and sent him away in shame. His work as an adventurer won him notoriety enough to gain the attention of several mercenary groups, who gave him plenty of opportunity to practice his beloved crafts.
Now, as time wears on, he finds few who can match his skill with blade and armor. He relishes these meetings, and the honor and challenge they represent.
Kenoichi is rather tall and imposing, rarely without the o-yoroi and greatsword crafted by his own skill and ensorcelled to fell greater beasts than normal steel may conquer. His manner speaks of his humble origins, fervent faith, and years of experience as a man-at-arms. Slow to anger, he nonetheless is eager with his blade, and enjoys fighting even when it may not be warranted.
Kenoichi has a sharp tongue and quick wit, often holding the concept of nobility equating to honor in contempt. He seeks the frontier as a place of freedom, where skill and honor matter more than birth or bearing.
OK, making sure I have the naginata thing right, so I'm gonna try to sketch out the build's feat selection. Since I can't use finesse training unless I'm using Spear Dancing Spiral and I can't use Spear Dancing Spiral unless my weapon has the Double property, which it only gets when wielded 2-handed because you can't have a 1-handed Double weapon, I'm not going for the quarterstaff master stuff.
Human Fighter 2/Rogue 5
Human Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
Lv1 Feat: Weapon Focus: Naginata
Lv1 Fighter Feat: Spear Dancing Style
Lv2 Fighter Feat: Spear Dancing Spiral
Rogue grants Weapon Finesse
Lv2 Fighter/Lv1 Rogue: Accomplished Sneak Attacker to get my SA dice back where they should be for ECL 3.
Lv2 Fighter/Lv3 Rogue: Finesse Training happens, I snag Spear Dancing Reach.
Lv2 Fighter/Lv5 Rogue: Combat Reflexes, because reach attacks of opportunity are nothing to sneeze at.
IIRC, I should have full sneak attack progression still because I'm only 2 levels out of rogue and I have accomplished sneak attacker. Trying to think of good rogue talents for a naginata finesse build, anyone have suggestions?
Thanks, that's a really generous VMC spread. It'll be awesome for any one handed weapon finesse build with decent charisma. Sadly my character won't have great charisma. If/when you do the inspired blade I would very much like it if it at least included int for max panache but only regain on crits just like inspired panache, of course still start at one point. Though replacing charmed life would be ideal. Having the option of replacing it with nimble seems more than fair, but if you're feeling generous rapier training without increase or a deed would be even better. Charmed life is an awesome ability for a charisma focused character though.
@Josh- spear dancing style grants a weapon the double weapon special feature (and removes brace and reach), but it does not require that you wield it as a double weapon (just like having a two bladed sword doesn't require you to use both ends in any given round). So, if you combine it with quarterstaff master your weapon would lose reach and brace for the stance, and then lose double for one handing it, but you could still finesse it one handed against adjacent opponents. That may seem like a lot of work to use finesse with a polearm, but it does give some options... You can choose to use two hands situationally for extra attacks; with spear dancer reach you can attack with reach with a one handed weapon... If you don't have anything you want to do with your off hand then quarterstaff master doesn't do much for you but it's kind of awesome for a magus (spell combat with a 1-handed naginata with reach, lol); it can be nice for a warpriest too- if you want to hold a touch spell for the right moment but still be able to fight (and iirc there's no rule against using 2WF with quarterstaff master, so you could actually use the polearm in one hand and a touch spell in the other in one round); or you could add a shield (a mithril heavy shield has no armor check penalty, so it won't interfere with finesse, but adds a nice AC bump). I'm not trying to sell you on anything, I just wanted to point out that a) it is possible, and b) there are, potentially, some practical benefits to it.
I received some questions about my version of VMC magus via PMs, I actually have 4... the two relevant to the questions I got are below.
Arcane Pool: At 3rd level, he gains the arcane pool class feature as a magus of his character level – 2.
Magus Arcana: At 7th level, he gains one magus arcana. His effective magus level for selecting and using arcana is equal to his character level -2.
Additional Arcana: At 11th level, he gains one additional magus arcana.
Improved Arcana: At 15th level, he gains one additional magus arcana and his effective magus level increases to being equal to his character level for all secondary class features.
Greater Arcana: At 19th level, he gains one additional magus arcana.
Canny Defense: At 3rd level, he gains the canny defense archetype feature as a kensai of half his character level.
Perfect Strike: At 7th level, he gains the perfect strike archetype feature. He gains an arcane pool with a number of points equal to his Intelligence modifier which can only be used to power this ability.
Iaijutsu: At 11th level, he gains the iaijutsu archetype feature.
Critical Perfection: At 15th level, he gains the critical perfection archetype feature as a kensai magus of his character level.
Superior Reflexes: At 19th level, he gains the superior reflexes archetype feature.
Is recruitment going to the 8th still?
@Wuliev- I think so, yes. There's still quite a few people who expressed interest but haven't posted an application yet. I'll try to start reviewing people's mechanics this week as I have time and then, hopefully, I'll be far enough along by Saturday that making selections will be easy enough that I can post them Sunday night or Monday morning.
Ok... I have concerns about this because I haven't had time to really test it out with theorycraft yet (and I could see it maybe becoming problematic on some magi), so I reserve the right to force changes/modifications during recruitment or play if needed, but here's the inspired blade VMC...
Inspired finesse: At 3rd level, she gains the inspired finesse archetype feature. If she has already selected weapon focus (rapier) she retrains it at no cost. If she has selected the weapon finesse feat she may choose to retrain it at no cost as well.
Inspired Panache: At 7th level she gains a panache pool, this functions as the amateur swashbuckler feat with the following exceptions: there is no restriction on which 1st level deed she may select; her maximum panache pool is equal to her Int modifier plus her Cha modifier; and, she gains panache points as an inspired blade, not a standard swashbuckler. If she already has the amateur swashbuckler feat she retrains it to extra panache at no cost. She counts as a swashbuckler for the purpose of taking extra panache multiple times.
Nimble: At 11th level she gains nimble as a 3rd level swashbuckler. At 19th level this ability improves to that of a 7th level swashbuckler.
Improved Deeds: At 15th level she may select any one additional deed to use with her panache. This deed must be available to a 3rd level swashbuckler and her effective swashbuckler level is equal to half her character level.
Greater Deeds: At 19th level she may select a third deed, but may select any deed available to a 7th level swashbuckler. Her effective swashbuckler level remains equal to half her character level.
Thank you. That'll suit my purposes perfectly.
I assume a kensai does not get an extra feat in place of weapon focus? Since its not normally possible to retrain it into anything due to the way it's gained.
That kensai vmc looks so awesome that I almost wish I wasn't already playing a magus (or that I could pick it with a regular magus). I'll be happy with what I got though.
Nope- in the case of kensai/VMC inspired blade you won't be able to retrain the weapon focus, that's correct. I mean, you could retrain it to another weapon focus but then canny defense and your other abilities would apply to that weapon instead...
I think my submission is finished and ready to go. Any comments or anything more you'd like to see on my end, Nate?
^ ditto
I am ready.
One is not ready for the moment, but rather, made ready by the moment.
Here's Akiyama Ichiro's character sheet, I'm working on his backstory currently. He is an air kineticist who fights primarily with a lightning kinetic blade/kinetic whip styled as an uchigatana with variable handle length. He has an heirloom chokuto as backup. He's generally quite acrobatic and mobile, with the ability to fly that he is now exploring.
What does VMC stand for please? And what are these? Alternate archetypes if so can you look at the noble fencer please?
That's a pretty good answer, Mordred, thanks. Variant MultiClassing was introduced in Pathfinder Unchained as an alternate system of multiclassing- instead of spending levels on a second class you give up every other base feat (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) and in exchange get class features for your secondary class at those levels. It's great for fighters because they have so many feats (and so few other abilities) that they can afford it easily. It can also be really nice for any kind of caster because you gain features from the other class without losing caster levels.
I really liked the idea of it, but found the execution lacking... The variation in benefit was really wide (for example, at 3rd level VMC barbarian gained full on rage, while VMC Alchemist got a bonus to craft[alchemy] skill checks), plus many of them had what felt like throw away abilities (like VMC wizard gained a cantrip at 11th level- what good is that). So, I started out trying to rebalance them some as a pet project. When I started looking at them more seriously it occurred to me that if you were actually learning a second skill set like that in real life you wouldn't be learning a random collection of one classes low level abilities, you'd focus on one aspect of that class... That lead to me making multiple variations of most classes (so I have 3 base alchemist VMCs- one focused on bombs, one on mutagens, and one on poison). From there it was a small step to adding a couple archetype versions to each class.
Thanks.. my non-swash dude i'm cooking up is a fighter, so that may come in interesting.
Could you cook up a VMC for Inquisitor (Sanctified slayer) and maybe slayer please?
Hmm.. Actually VMC Barbarian actually works, I was thinking that Rage would go great with this concept, but that I didn't want to make a Barbarian...
Hmm... I was going to tell Mordred that I didn't want to post all of the VMCs that I've done because I was afraid it would open a can of worms, but it seems the can is already open...
Alright, here is the document with all the VMC options I've done so far. Please note- this is a work in progress. Some of the options need some updating (and some of them I'm trying to figure out how to overhaul), so please ask before taking any of these. If you're wondering about an archetype for a class I've already done, I'm probably not going to add it right now (there's likely a reason I didn't add it the first time around- for example, I didn't do sanctified slayer because there'd be too much overlap with slayer). If you're wondering about one of the hybrid classes I haven't gotten to yet, feel free to ask and I'll try to find time. I'm not going to look at/work on occult classes at this time.
I love your unchained rogue (combat) vmc. That's so awesome for so many builds. Especially Twfing builds will love that to bits, but a magus, dex monk or an arcane trickster could use it very well as well. I might switch to that one instead if allowed. Sneak attack would fit well on someone claiming to be a ninja. The real benefit of the inspired blade posted above doesn't really kick in until 15th anyway. The finesse training doesn't actually give you weapon finesse, right? So you would have to pick up that manually.
I realize I'm getting somewhat short on time to finish things up... Honestly I haven't been able to work on this as much as I would like since both work and home have gone through extremely busy periods...
Having considered a few more options, I have one more question:
How would you handle retraining on gaining duplicates of picked feats as class abilities later?
Specifically, I picked up "Improved Unarmed Strike" as a prerequisite for Crane Style. If I were to dip into Maneuver Master Chained Monk to fetch Flurry of Maneuvers(which, as written, does not depend on a monk weapon and should work with an Uchigatana) and Improved Disarm(bypassing Combat Expertise), could I retrain the Feat I spent on Improved Unarmed Strike(which is part of the Monk package deal)?
No retraining(plan it out ahead, proper)? Regular retraining(downtime needed, cost involved)? Instant retraining(a-la Versatile Performance)?
@Oyzar- correct. I'm not completely satisfied with the Rogue[combat] VMC because of the whole finesse bit... it should grant weapon finesse and Dex to damage both, but then it would need to take up two powers... and if you're taking that then you want/need to be Dex based so you don't want to wait until 3rd for finesse... ok, I'm a hair's width from this turning into a rant. The succinct answer is you would need to take weapon finesse with one of your feats (the 7th level ability is basically free Deadly Agility).
@Saria- short answer: no retrain. medium answer: you can't retrain a feat that was a prerequisite for another feat... so if you needed IUS to qualify for crane style when you took it then you can't retrain IUS unless you retrain crane style first... technically, if you spent enough money the retrain system would let you dump all your feats at once and relearn them all together (allowing you to regain crane style without doubling up on IUS), but that's stupid and I'm not going to calculate its cost (and I'll still say no even if you do the calculations, so don't waste your time).
Thank you.
I did streamline the progression a bit. I feel Swordlord PRC was just a mechanical dip to fetch dueling mastery and deft strike.
With the Monk(Maneuver Master) Level, I already had a staggered BAB-progression, so I added 3 Unchained Rogue Levels to pick up Weapon Finesse and Finesse Training, and opted to fetch Dueling Mastery via the normal prereqs.
One reason for the rebuild was action economy. With the need for Swift Actions(enter crane style, enhance weapon via arcane pool, trigger certain arcana), I felt that the Level 11 ability of Swordlord Fighter would not see much use, due to demanding inmediate action use.
As such, the new "streamlined" progression is Monk 1/Rogue 3/Fighter 7/Duelist 9 with no hopping back and forth, feeling like more organic growth(even if the early levels are basically "fused" into a package deal). It also adds another source of situational precision damage(2d6 sneak), and a good number of skill points to round the character out further.
I'm simply pointing that out in case you already did or are in the process of mechanical evaluation. I will need to go over everything again and there could be significant errors in the alias currently, due to the vast changes.
DM Nate
I'm a bust for a second idea.. so I'm just going to go with Sigvald and take my chances.
"I like your chances, Captain." Sung tells the tall man, with a warm smile.
"I hope you are correct Elder" and gives a short bow of respect.
"They say all warriors will have their day to die under the sun, but are the gods truly so equitable?
I have seen oft a forgotten brand wither within closed doors."
The monkey grins as he adjusts the pipe he's smoking with his tongue, a foolhardy gleam in his eye.
"Your light shines bright as well, wild one." the old man replies, "I pray fortune smiles upon you."
Yumiko says, "When one sits and ponders what exactly 'The Way' actually is, is in actuality of no pertinence. The true mark of a warrior is in her willingness or better acceptance of dying. Fore, if one is pre-reserved that death may come at any moment, like a leaf falls from a branch, the warrior is shown apt. This is the sum of all things."
I'm sorry, but I don't think I'll be able to finish my character. I think it's an awesome concept, but sadly I haven't had the time nor inspiration to complete the writeup.
Does that put us at zero magus applications? I have to say, that's a bit of a surprise (especially with as many people as said they'd apply with one).
I was going to post a revised list but I'm not sure how many people are planning on using VMCs at all... Could anyone who hopes/plans to do so please make a post saying so?
Would you allow the weapon trick Choke up to be used with Spellcombat?
I'm interested in submitting a strength based kensai magus using using a fauchard for AOOs crit fishing, trip maneuvers and cornugun smashing
I was intending to submit an application today but this hurricane complicated things...
@Wabbit- Sorry, I'm going to have to say no on choke up/spell combat. Choke up specifies that you can't attack with your off-hand and paizo is pretty consistent in treating spell combat as an off-hand attack (even saying that it works like two weapon fighting). IIRC, you could probably accomplish what you're trying to do by dipping 3 levels of phalanx fighter (or taking the phalanx fighter VMC) and wearing a buckler (though you'd get -1 to attack rolls a lot of the time). Or, there's a way to do it with spear dancing/quarterstaff master but it's probably too many feats (and its Dex based). Also, fauchard is not on the list of swords... Are you hoping to be considered for a potential non-swordsman combat position?
I was hoping that the fauchard could be counted as a great nodachi and therefore eligible for a swordsman slot but if not... I'd be willing to compete for the non-swordsman spot
I wanted to use Choke up rather than 2 levels of barbarian titan mauler.. As a kensai/weapon master is more in keeping with my character idea than kensai barbarian. But one works via RAW. The other requires DM permission... And I thought given the amount of homebrew, custom VMCs that it might be allowed.
I'll work on the submission tomorrow
I was going to post a revised list but I'm not sure how many people are planning on using VMCs at all... Could anyone who hopes/plans to do so please make a post saying so?
It's probably not news, but just for protocol per request:
One-Handed Sword
MordredofFairy - Saria Adura(Dueling Sword, Defensive/Disarm), VMC Magus(Arcane Pool)
As we talked, while initially I considered the option of using the VMC to get channel, later it just became obvious the dip was a better option (not only mechanically wise, but also in terms of backstory). :)
24 hours remaining...
Please double check the initial post and make sure your application is complete. If you haven't linked an alias that includes everything in its profile, please either post everything in one place now or post or PM me a link to where it all is.
Posting everything together! Formatting is disappeared but I'll make everything pretty again if selected.
Male human swashbuckler (veiled blade, whirling dervish) 7
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Initiative +12; Senses Perception +12
- - - - -
DEFENSE
- - - - -
Armor Class 22, touch 19, flat-footed 14 (+6 Dex, +2 armor, +1 natural, +2 dodge, +1 deflection)
Hit Points 71/71 (7d10+7)
Nonlethal Damage 0
Condition Normal
Fortitude +3, Reflex +12, Will +4
- - - - -
OFFENSE
- - - - -
Speed 30 feet
Melee Ire's Mastery +16/+11 (1d6+15/15-20)
Ranged Dagger +14/+9 (1d4+13/10 ft.)
Special Attacks Combat Expertise, Deeds
- - - - -
STATISTICS
- - - - -
Strength 10, Dexterity 22, Constitution 12, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 14, Charisma 16
Base Attack Bonus +7
Combat Maneuver Bonus +13
Combat Maneuver Defense 24
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Steadfast Personality, Swordplay Style
Traits Ancestral Weapon, Blade of Mercy, Threatening Defender
Trained Skills
Acrobatics +16 (7 ranks+3 class+6 Dex)
Bluff +13 (7 ranks+3 class+3 Cha)
Disguise +13 (7 ranks+3 class+3 Cha)
Knowledge (nobility) +10 (7 ranks+3 class) (Background)
Perception +12 (7 ranks+3 class+2 Wis)
Sense Motive +12 (7 ranks+3 class+2 Wis)
Sleight of Hand +16 (7 ranks+3 class+6 Dex) (Background)
Stealth +13 (7 ranks+6 Dex)
Languages Common
Equipment
Weapons
Ire's Mastery (+2 silver scimitar)
Daggers, 3
Armor and Clothing
+1 haramaki
Amulet of natural armor +1
Belt of incredible dexterity +2
Gauntlets of the skilled disarmer
Hat of disguise
Ring of protection +1
Other Gear
Masterwork backpack
--Fishing tackle
--Hammock
Money
470 gp, 9 sp
The Shinobu family extends back many generations, into the distant past. It is best traced to one man, Shinobu Ikari. You've likely heard of him, yes? He was a skilled swordsman, but even moreso, he was a master swordsmith. But his was a path of rage, anger--even his name, Ire. His swords were no mere tools of war, they were harbingers of death and misery. His last and greatest creation, a blade forged of silver to prove he might create a fine weapon even of soft metal, drank blood the same day it was finished. Ikari Shutoku, the blade is called, and it has been passed down through the family as an heirloom, along with our clan's unique style of swordplay: Ikari Shutoku-Ryu.
So it came that this one studied the family style in youth, and came to possess Ire's Mastery. That style was one of death, like the blade which spawned it. It drove this one to violence, to criminal acts in the name of bloodshed. But there is law in this land. And when a villager stood up to our band one day, we thought it a joke. We laughed and moved forward, all until the villager drew a sword and struck us down in a breath's passing. The others fought on, but this one threw down his sword. The stranger was too strong, and felled even this one in a single stroke of his blade.
When this one awoke, it was a surprise, truly. But the stranger--a ronin, as it turned out--explained that this one was spared for his surrender. No man is beyond redemption who might offer sincere atonement, and only those who steadfastly defy reason and justice must be laid low. The ronin's words rang true, and brilliant. He spoke of true justice, of peace, of kindness, of forgiveness. This one sought these things, and offered his life to the ronin. So began the true training.
Tentai-Bi Yurushi-Ryu: Celestial Sun Absolution style. This is the style of the ronin. It is not widely known, or widely taught; today, there are perhaps a dozen swordsmen who know its secrets. Tentai-Bi Yurushi-Ryu is a defensive style, used to defuse violence without causing greater death. This one can disarm, can drop a foe without fear of great injury or death. Of course, the blade is still sharp when it must be used for such. The passivity of the style also lends itself to a keen eye, a scent for danger, and a skill for remaining below notice.
Now you have come, and this one knows why. Many men like yourself seek protection, both obvoius and hidden, and it is this second which has brought you here. Every assassin expects the man in armor to defend his charge, but what of the beef merchant at the stall nearby? What of the old man watching the birds? What of the hidden sword, lurking in the shadow they do not search? This one has safeguarded many men these years, and none have fallen under his watch.
Shinobu Jing-yi is at your service, sir. Though you may not see me, may not know me, know you are under guard. You will reach your home alive and well.
Jing-yi is a soft-spoken man with a fairly passive attitude; he tends to let verbal conflicts flow over him without arguing back, and doesn't often insert himself into others' conversations if he can help it. Jing-yi is more interested in quietly assisting others than furthering any secret goals he may have of his own, and he seems only too willing to sacrifice for another he respects. One subject, however, seems able to raise Jing-yi's passion, and quickly at that: the possibility of redeeming those who have erred in their ways. He argues angrily against any hardline "moralists" who believe in killing wiithout good cause, and will always offer surrender and life to his enemies if he can.
Tentai-Bi Yurushi-Ryu--often shortened simply to Yurushi-Ryu--is an uncommon style practiced only by a few adherents, although many of its practicioners have been fairly well-known swordsmen. Yurushi-Ryu is a defensive style built around a theory of nonlethal swordsmanship: while perfectly capable of lethality, and fearsome when used as such, it is most commonly used to protect oneself and others, and true students of the style are obligated to put down those who corrupt its skills for violence. The forms incorporated in Yurushi-Ryu are based around blocks and dodges more than straightforward attacks, although its offensive techniques are devastating when used to their full extent. Interestingly, the style has several attacks designed specifically for taking on larger groups--further cementing its use to protect, and further increasing its capacity for ruthless destruction.
Wanderer82, tagging in with my finished character, Vashiro Hitaki. Master of the twin blades and ghost on the wind, Vashiro is a hunter of men, capable of tracking a foe to the ends of the world then striking them down silently in the dead of night. Just do not call him a ninja...
Everything is here.
***8 hours remaining***
I should be almost finished(Crunch is complete).
I was undecided between Rake and Consiglieri for a long time, but ultimately, while Rake would have been the more powerful option, Consiglieri was simply more fitting.
I only did a rough draft of a story before(considering alterations may come up with a rebuild), and will rework it before the deadline(also including more references to the setting, and more details about past experience). I do expect to be finished by midnight GMT, but I may take a little bit longer(baby is getting more teeth, and not sleeping very well).
I am not asking for a potential extension, simply for a "page refresh" when you come to my submission ;)
Everything's in the alias.
Ok, here is Kenoichi updated. I finished off his equipment selections and switched out the Weapon Trick feat for Advanced Weapon Training (Dazzling Intimidation.)
i am fine
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Two Hours