Errin, on Aug 10, 2016, 09:29 pm I posted:
Endregaard - Evening 2 - Rennah and Errin
Errin stays put near the buildings outside of the CSA perimeter.
You are a good 200 meters outside of the compound which is fairly heavily patrolled and guarded.
Rennah begins to move forward over the open ground
when you are within 50 meters of the perimeter one of the guards turns towards you and calls out raising his hand, "Halt! You are not authorized to enter through this area citizen. The compound is on lockdown until tomorrow morning".
At that time Rennah backed out and away into the city streets where she encountered her Mob.
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This is the overview of the CSA compound which I stated was NOT to scale.
A fairly large compound presented rather crudely I know.
BY Round 4, the Transports and Chasing speeders are just edging away from the building at the bottom.
As I am a new Star Wars Saga GM I have been adjudicating speed by squares, the speeder bikes have a speed of 12 squares while the transport I gave a speed of 10 (though likely it should move slower with the spice I did not have it do so).
As a move action speed brings a vehicle to 4x's its normal speed. However, I did not have the transport moving this fast until Round 4 because to do so would have caused a loss of the supplies with a high speed hairpin turns due to the location of the transport near the building and Kaldo's Piloting it near where Garrett was.
When you all left the building I should have had the PvP group refer to that separate map but I neglected to due to other things in RL which have kept me busy. My bad.
Rounds 4 and 5 would have had the transports and the speeder bikes in pursuit.
The Transport had a head start for 3 Rounds putting it 30 Squares away, just at the edge of the HQ building and ready to enter the open ground of the compound. Moving at top speed round 4 and 5, this would have put it another 80 squares away from the building. So 110 total away from where the speeders were.
The speeders for Rounds 4 and 5 would have moved 12 x4 as they can reach maximum velocity rather quickly. (See Episode 6 Return of the Jedi...) Thus thy would have moved a total of 96 Squares trailing the larger Transport by only 14 Squares by the end of Round 5.
Note that in Round 4 Garrett was thrown off of the transport and landed on the ground where the speeders moving quickly raced by him but Que who can only move the speeder 12 squares would soon be...
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As we view the CSA Compound Overview, note that Errin is 200 meters OUTSIDE of the compound on top of a building.
Just by scale on the map itself, the HQ Building is about 3 to 4xs that distance from the perimeter where the guards are patrolling on foot.
That would be between 600 and 800 meters away. Let's call it 700 meters.
In Star Wars Saga, 1.5 meters equals 1 square. That's 466 Squares until the edge of the perimeter. BY excel's math skills that's about 6 Round until they reach the edge of the compound.
This means that my posts upon my return were incorrect and it would be many more rounds before Rennah and Errin could interact with the group in a meaningful way.
I did this for two reasons: (1) I did not check scale when I started the game up again and (2) I wanted to bring the rest of the Imperial Knights into the action already!
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However, Kaldo's actions and Caleb's Use of the Force has ended the chase. So the transport will not get close enough for Errin's shot (though that was a killer roll, we'll save if for your next action!)
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As to Caleb moving on the transport while it was moving, he already made 2 Acrobatics checks so I did not have him make a third one which I likely should have when he moved forward. Though I believe last night he did make a successful check.
The transport can has a window giving him line of sight though he is not IN the CAB as the door is closed and the windows are closed, thus the reason he could not hear Kaldo when he was using the Comm.
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Let's pause the action for a moment, discuss the above and when all the confusion is cleared i.e. you all post We will move forward.
I get it as well. I'm ready to move on, thanks for the elaboration on where everyone was and how things were transpiring. I thought Errin was way closer (evidently she did as well), but evidently she was not. We'll see how this goes, then.
Well, the GM takes full responsibility for this one guys.
I'll try to be more clear in the future! Once everyone chimes in, we can move forward. Perhaps by then we will have a Replacement for the Jedi team.
If anyone knows anyone interested in playing have them PM me or check in on Storyteller Shadow's Multi Game Recruitment Thread.
Yes that happened!
Okay, I think I see where some of the confusion about distance is coming from.
When Rennah and I first set up in the warehouse outside the perimeter, you posted this here:
A typical city block is a little more than 300 feet, or 10 meters, which would put us 50 meters from the perimeter.
When you later posted that we were 200 meters from the compound, I read that as 200 meters from the building where the Jedi were (which syncs with your estimate that the distance to the building was 3-4 times as far as the distance from our warehouse to the perimeter). Rennah, consequently, walked 50 meters (5 blocks) from the warehouse to the perimeter when she talked to the guards.
By that measure, the 80 meters the transport moved in Rounds 4 and 5 would have put it well within the 150 meter range of my rifle, triggering my readied shot targeting Caleb.
Now, if the distance is going to be retconned to be four times as far as when we set up, I guess there's nothing to do about it now, although I would have moved up earlier rather than be stranded so far out as to be unable to provide fire support as planned.
BUT, Caleb still wouldn't be able to affect Kaldo with Mind Trick, as the application he wants to use requires communication, not just line of sight. As you said:
If Caleb can't hear Kaldo then Kaldo can't hear Caleb.
That may sound nit-picky, but as twinked out as these Jedi are, with Skill Focus: Use the Force across the board, I think they should be held to the rules when they use those abilities. Otherwise the rest of us might as well pack it up and go home.
Fair enough Errin, totally agree that the confusion as to distance was my bad. I figured you would have wanted to stay high on a building rather than be on foot in the open for support so I probably had assumptions working in addition to being unclear cause of all the RL crap I had going on.
Interesting point on Mind Trick, you are correct, this is what happens when I try to clarify things at 5:30 in the morning with not enough sleep the night before! However, due to reasons outside of the Mind Trick, Kaldo did stop the transport from moving.
Once everyone else checks in, we can see how this all shakes out!
Fair enough Errin, totally agree that the confusion as to distance was my bad. I figured you would have wanted to stay high on a building rather than be on foot in the open for support so I probably had assumptions working in addition to being unclear cause of all the RL crap I had going on.
Interesting point on Mind Trick, you are correct, this is what happens when I try to clarify things at 5:30 in the morning with not enough sleep the night before! However, due to reasons outside of the Mind Trick, Kaldo did stop the transport from moving.
Once everyone else checks in, we can see how this all shakes out!
I was/am high on a building, having jet-packed to the roof to establish line of sight some time ago.
So, I take it we're going with Jedi Win?
I would not call it a Jedi win yet. Let's have it play out in it's entirety :-)
I was okay. Now I'm not okay. Part of it is about hearing, but for a different reason than Errin.
BUT, Caleb still wouldn't be able to affect Kaldo with Mind Trick, as the application he wants to use requires communication, not just line of sight. As you said:
If Caleb can't hear Kaldo then Kaldo can't hear Caleb.
That may sound nit-picky ...
I can understand the cab / window / commlink thing; I was some distance back, on the open back of a moving speeder, which means someone talking at normal voice inside the cab (over a commlink) is not going to be audible to me. That's the 'Caleb can't hear Kaldo' part.
The 'Kaldo can't hear Caleb' part comes after a change - Caleb moving to the passenger-side door. My displayed intent was Caleb getting into the cab - which means passenger-side. If the Acrobatics roll is required for movement, and he needs to take another movement action to actually open the door ('what's this, a speeder with doors?') and climb inside, all right, fine - goes against the whole 'jump in and start up' typical speeder, goes against Kaldo doing exactly that, because if we had a speeder with an enclosed cab, the doors would have had locks, and the locks would have BEEN locked as a matter of unconscious standard action. And Kaldo definitely didn't need to make, didn't even think about making, a pick lock/security/whatever roll in order to get into the cargo skiff carrying vitally-needed and thus incredibly-expensive-on-the-black-market medication that the Jedi specifically do not want to see vanish into the black market.
Now, since there's a huge distance between the city and where we are, I WOULD take the time to get into the cab; since that's going to be another Move action and Acrobatics roll on Caleb's part, Kaldo is going to have at least one action to, y'know, lock the doors, meaning I have to spend an action slicing it open, enabling him to draw a blaster pistol and shoot at Caleb, which means I'd have to deflect THAT shot, and there's Garrett still shooting at me which is a Decidedly Uncomfortable Thing Let Me Tell You. This makes the situation a further-exciting contest, making me Indiana Jones getting into the cab of the truck carrying the Ark of the Covenant and Kaldo the driver of that truck trying to make sure I don't take it over. (But yeah, I have the Mind Trick thing, which makes things easier for me.)
However. My current issue is with the Mind Trick not working.
Just because Caleb could not have heard Kaldo speaking over the comms does not mean that Kaldo cannot now hear Caleb shouting at him through the door (or front) window. You can hear people through windows, because solid objects transfer sound. That'll be either the window or the actual roof/door through which my shout will go. If the window(s) are force screens, that's just as good; they transfer low levels of sound just fine. So if he can hear me, then the Mind Trick works, period.
If he can't hear me ... I have no idea why he couldn't hear me if I was there. But the only way the Mind Trick wouldn't work is if he couldn't hear me, and if he couldn't hear me, there'd be no reason for him to stop or do what he does in the IC spoiler, because at best all he can do is see a face.
So my question is this: 'Why is the Mind Trick not working?'
... but as twinked out as these Jedi are, with Skill Focus: Use the Force across the board, I think they should be held to the rules when they use those abilities. Otherwise the rest of us might as well pack it up and go home.
I'm sorry, but while yes, the Force is a significant tool in the box, and though I didn't build Caleb, I'm rather annoyed at being called 'twinked out' by a character who is built with this:
Careful Shot, Deadeye, double-trigger, Hunter’s Mark, targeting scope Errin gains a number of benefits when aiming: +2 to hit (Careful Shot and double-trigger), +1 die of damage (Deadeye), targets move an extra step on the condition track if hit (Hunter’s Mark), reduce range one category (targeting scope), ignore cover (aiming).
Your schtick is hitting what you shoot at. You have six Feats and one Talent that adds to that skill. My schtick appears to be lightsaber combat and the Force; my feats and Talents focus on doing my best to make sure I don't get shot by you while I close with you. Considering that I've already a) been shot once, b) almost missed the boat, c) nearly gotten shaken off the skiff by an unexpected acceleration, d) barely avoided getting kicked off, e) failed once in an effort to remove my attacker, f) been told that something that IMO with SW-standard speeders should have worked wasn't going to, having had to convert that to something else, g) gotten shot at (and barely deflected) a SECOND shot by my attacker ...
... I would submit that the 'twinked out' build I've come in and picked up has been held to the rules pretty thoroughly, thank you.
If WotC hadn't killed their messageboards I could link you to the dozens of threads about the imbalance created by Skill Focus: UTF. There's a reason almost every set of suggested house rules for Saga restricts the feat to level 10+ Jedi or bans it outright.
When it comes to a skill that's used so encompassingly as UtF, I can understand exactly where you're coming from in regards to the feat. But that sounds like a discussion that's be necessary for game start, not mid-stride. We all build to what we want our characters to be good at; whomever built Caleb wanted him to have a few good Force tricks, and to be able to defend himself. I'm simply proposing that personal insults, however generally given ('as twinked out as these Jedi are' being nonspecific to any one of us, but a personal insult given in general at the group's members), are not exactly necessary.
Let's keep this character-versus-character and not actually player-versus-player, huh?
Part of the issue that is in SWSE, Force Powers are inherently imbalanced. You can easily outpace non Force-Sensitive characters by simply spending all of your character level feats on Force Training. That one skill allows for far greater utility than I will ever achieve no matter what I attempt to do. You don't even really NEED to have force powers, the simple ability to use the options presented from the skill itself are immensely useful. You can break the game entirely with the ability to Search Your Feelings... I told the GM that story through PM a little while ago. It involved a 16-digit code and asking the Force if *this button* would set off the alarms...
Technically speaking, it was incredibly sub-optimal to play Garrett as a droid. It does net me some useful immunities, but it also means I'll never be able to get the ability to do things like turn invisible or phase through walls, which are totally things Jedi can do. As a powerful Sith once said, after all, "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force," and boy was he right. I personally don't think it was meant to be an insult to any of you personally, but statistically your party was originally built in a way so that most of your characters were pretty min-maxed. Throwing that on top of the fact that Jedi are nearly unquestionably the best class in the game, and there's a reason a common saying in SWSE is "All Jedi or No Jedi". The idea of holding to these rules, I think, is to measure them in a conservative fashion because of the Force's inherent lack of balance. That, however, is just my opinion. You can pull some tricks to help counter the power of the Force, but it's hard. It's one of the few times where I condone having to invest class abilities and feats into things that might make sense to just allow. You didn't build the characters so you can't really be at fault, as as you said, but they do still stick advantage of some of the more obnoxious Force abilities and so a conservative ruling helps level the playing field some.
That said, I can actually understand why Kaldo might not be able to hear you still. I share your confusion over there being doors, but one could assume he's stopped the speeder because if you're at the door, that means I've probably been removed from the equation. Realistically, his best option is to stop at that point, even if he can't hear you, because his best line of defense is currently gone. He can hear me over comms, so I'm alive, but not on the transport anymore. Now, whether he can even hear you is up to the GM at this point, but I'm merely saying I can see a reason why he would stop even if Mind Trick didn't work at this point. Also, "hearing" is not necessarily "understanding", so even if he hears noise he has to be able to interpret the suggestion itself. Those are all factors for the GM to decide, certainly, but together it does make sense that Kaldo is (potentially) not subject to Mind Trick, but would still stop moving. Now, if you made it into the cab, of course Mind Trick works! But having had someone try to talk to me through a closed window, I can see how he might hear you but have no idea what the suggestion actually was. Considering you must speak the target's language (I think), that would imply comprehension is necessary. Of course, I'm not positive on that ruling, and if you don't need to speak any common languages you could say the sound itself magically implants the suggestion, which does also seem like a Force thing to do. We'd have to look up the exact wording of the power, and I have a midterm too early to keep thinking about this right now.
PS: In due fairness, being shot at by Garrett is something that I think almost everyone would consider an uncomfortable situation.
Just chiming in.
No issues on my part. I just want to see how it's all going to play out.
I will say though that one thing that struck me about the UTF is something else. I, once we encountered each other, read a little bit about the others and one of the comments about "oh, nothing's happening combat-wise" was from the character who most uses the UTF to avoid said combat. :S (No offense Quen Pah, but you did do it. :P)
The one thing I do want to bring up though is in relation to UTF:
One of my pet peeves is the Mind Trick ability. It seems to me to be something that people resort to much too often to "get their way" instead of diplomacy/intimidation/whatever.
At which point does it become abuse of the force and Dark Side worthy?
Regarding the window thing:
Unless the glass is superthick and he's got the chase music blasting, or the skiff's engines are especially loud, someone shouting outside the window can be heard clearly by someone inside the cab. If it was the case that it was too loud inside the cab to hear, unless he had an implanted commlink he'd probably have needed Perception rolls to hear everyone else's side of the the conversation; if the skiff's engines were really loud, I'd've thought the GM would have stated that during the conversation/banter between Garrett and Caleb during the scene itself. So I really can't see this as a reason.
Regarding stopping:
If Caleb still has to get inside to even have a chance to be heard - and having ridden there in this very skiff, I personally think Caleb would know whether or not he could be heard shouting from just outside the cab - then Kaldo still has at least one round, and possibly several, with which to either a) get in range of Rennah and Errin, or b) swing back around and let Garrett pick Caleb off the side, besides his own actions to keep safe, e.g. locking the door, shooting at Caleb, etc. So him stopping doesn't seem to me to be a logical act either.
Regarding 'getting my own way':
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
Jedi are the guardians of peace in the galaxy.
Jedi use their powers to defend and protect, never to attack others.
Jedi respect all life, in any form.
Jedi serve others rather than ruling over them, for the good of the galaxy.
Jedi seek to improve themselves through knowledge and training.
I like to think that so far and for the most part, Caleb has lived up to this philosophy; he may have a bit of trouble with the passion/emotion portions, but he isn't trying to 'get his way' so much as he's trying to keep a bunch of thieves from stealing a large bunch of medicines, the theft of which may mean that hundreds of people may continue to be victims of this plague, if not die, all without doing significant harm to the thieves. (And yes, he at the very least suspects that Garrett isn't what he appears to be, due to the back-of-the-skiff stability.)
To boot, the very first thing Caleb does is this:
Reaching out to the Force, he lets it flow through himself, springing after the skiff; its pause to pick up the sniper gives him the opportunity to leap forward and onto it. "Mind if we talk about this?" he asks mildly, though his 'saber is still active, held in the classic cross-body defensive stance.
He clearly, definitively, and specifically asks to talk about it. He isn't an idiot; he's facing a guy with a blaster rifle in his arms, the very guy who just shot HIM, so he doesn't put his weapon away. He also doesn't attack, or stand with a threatening attitude.
So while Caleb may be using Mind Trick to 'get his way', the 'way' that he's trying to get is 'let's talk this over and not try to hurt each other'. Some, many, or all of you may see that as 'losing'; I originally, and still, see it as the opportunity to discover the mutual-win condition that's present, since we both want the people to get the medicine.
Everyone had the opportunity to build the type of character that wanted. Resorting to min max insults is also a reflection on the types of characters that other people built and as far as I can tell the jedi team has not used many, if any jedi powers in this combat despite being ambushed and shot at.
Shortened down...
I didn't actually mean in this instance, as I thought your Mind Trick there was perfectly reasonable. :)
I was thinking more in regards to the NPCs, and was more a matter of over-reliance on it in general play, rather than anyone's specific use(s) of it in this particular campaign. :)(That said, Mind Tricks and other controlling powers (in all games) are always going to be tricky in PVP situations).
Just chiming in.
No issues on my part. I just want to see how it's all going to play out.
I will say though that one thing that struck me about the UTF is something else. I, once we encountered each other, read a little bit about the others and one of the comments about "oh, nothing's happening combat-wise" was from the character who most uses the UTF to avoid said combat. :S (No offense Quen Pah, but you did do it. :P)
The one thing I do want to bring up though is in relation to UTF:
One of my pet peeves is the Mind Trick ability. It seems to me to be something that people resort to much too often to "get their way" instead of diplomacy/intimidation/whatever.
At which point does it become abuse of the force and Dark Side worthy?
You play your character the way that you want to play your character and allow others to do the same. The fact that you have to say no offense demonstrates that you are trying to cover up trying to be offensive to a player's style and besides why would you be looking up other people's characters knowing that this is a PVP game? Shenanigans.
Everyone had the opportunity to build the type of character that wanted. Resorting to min max insults is also a reflection on the types of characters that other people built and as far as I can tell the jedi team has not used many, if any jedi powers in this combat despite being ambushed and shot at.
But see, not everyone DID get the build the character they wanted. Both Gunnar and Caleb are playing characters that were designed by others, and so they haven't been able to play characters they made or designed so far in this game. As far as Jedi powers go, here's everything you all have used (or attempted to use) so far:
In addition to this, you personally also attempted to use a Jedi Talent with a UTF roll to wipe yourself from my memory (which automatically fails, because droid). That's an average of two attempted uses of the Force per turn, which I'd say is significant. Also, I ambushed a bunch of CSA guards, not Jedi; you just happened to be there and happened to have an opinion about me killing people.
Also, saying you've min-maxed isn't an insult, it's how you play the game. Garrett himself is certainly min-maxed for his concept, but my point is that a mediocre Force-User can compete with a min-maxed NON Force-user. The lengths to which I realistically have to go in order to combat a Force user built in any way competently is kind of absurd, and all of it relies on equipment that I have to buy just for that purpose. You can play whatever the hell you want to, but what we're trying to say is Jedi and other Force sensitives possess an automatically unfair advantage due to the rules of the game. You arguing against that means you do not understand how the game is designed, because I've never met anyone who HAS who disagrees with that statement. It's virtually impossible to have, say, a Will Defense higher than the average UTF roll by the level we're at, so unless you're a Force User with Rebuke you're a sitting duck. Reflex and Fortitude at least gain the benefit of your armor, if you have it. Couple that with some of the best defensive abilities in the game, and Jedi can be way unbalanced. I'm not even telling you not to play one, but suggesting that you're on an even playing field against someone without Force powers is untrue. The scales are inherently tipped in your favor, and as Errin said Skill Focus: UTF is unquestionably the most broken feat in the game. Your party is powerful, and attempting to condemn me for "ambushing" you is silly, as ironically that's how I play the game (which you were just defending).
Also, in regards to looking at other people's sheets, I will point out that Caleb, about two posts ago, mentioned 6 feats and 1 talent from Errin's sheet, which he's only going to find on her sheet or in our Gameplay thread. Moreover, it's not as if they're hidden; a number of us helped other people with their character builds at the start of the game and therefore read their sheets intimately in order to help them. Combine that with the fact that we all have relevant information in our headers, and complaining that we can see each other's sheets is kind of silly in my mind. If you can't separate IC and OOC knowledge, don't look.
RE: Caleb
I agree, I don't think you've abused Mind Trick at all. I think Rennah was more remarking that it's very easy for people to use it all the time just because it's there, so at what point do you start earning Dark Side points for it?
When it comes to the skiff, I can see your point, but I can also see how enough ambient noise could be produced he couldn't hear you through the windows, too. Garrett has been shouting into his commlink this whole time, as I've said in-game. He could wheel around, or his thought could be that stopping gives me the chance to line up another shot on you, but if he keeps going he's unprotected. I've had people yell at me through a car window and had trouble understanding them, but YMMV. That's a question for the GM, I guess, but either way the skiff has stopped. Now, whether or not Garrett starts taking more pot shots at you depends entirely on what you do next, but a lack of threatening gestures might convince him to hold his fire for now.
Also, I'd be hard-pressed to say you'd know Garrett was a droid, but thinking there's something off, or more than meets the eye? I understand that completely. Dude just stood still on a skiff without even trying to balance.
So using what a character is designed to do is now bad? I think that the other group is applying a double standard. No one on our team is complaining about what the other team has done. Caleb asks for clarification and people begin acting as if they are the GM.
I am not condemning you for trying to ambush the party, it is a valid strategy. However, your team seems to be unhappy with how our team has decided to respond. Complaining about legitimate and legal applications of the rules and how people built their characters is kinda childish.
I really am thinking that this game is probably over, people want to do PVP but on their terms, it seems.
I think back and forth debate is natural and healthy and will allow everyone to get a sense for where the other player is coming from. I've got no problem with it.
I can see the argument for why Mind Trick would not work, shouting at someone from the hood of a speeder or roof of a speeder traveling ultra fast the sound could easily be lost. Stand with your back to someone and speak INTO the wind on a blustery day and it is hard for the person behind you to hear you without a pane of glass and a door in between.
That being said, Kaldo DID stop for reasons that are his OWN.
I think we can all agree to the following:
1. The DM needs to be more specific in his descriptions of scenes,
2. Any rule elaboration will be PMed to the DM and will not clutter the OOC or I/C thread,
3. The DM (who is not nearly as familiar with Star Wars which is part of why he is running the game) will double check all skills and powers used in the book before adjudicating in I/C.
If any of you feel that you need to stop playing no hard feelings but the game will go on, unless all of you quit then this will be a Dark Side game :-)
That being said, Rennah, Gunnar and Quen, please let me know if you follow what I outlined above as to scene and distance. If you do, I will move forward with the game.
Thanks!
Complaining about legitimate and legal applications of the rules and how people built their characters is kinda childish.
Legitimate and legal applications of the rules is all I'm asking for (and to be honest, am a little tired of having to ask for).
Look, I knew going in that we'd be competing with Force users who, intentionally or not, would benefit from the imbalanced nature of the Saga rules. That's fine. With a focused build and smart play, we can compete just fine -- as long as the rules are applied fairly.
My complaint is that, since the PvP portion began, distances have been retconned in a way that benefits the Jedi, sidelining Rennah and I and leaving us with nothing to do but point out the repeated attempts to apply the rules incorrectly or interpret the (admittedly, sometimes unclear) circumstances in a way that advantages the Jedi.
That's not a role I find to be very fun. I would much rather get back to playing, whether PvP or not, but that only works if the rules are applied evenly and the limitations on Force powers enforced strictly -- preferably without our team having to speak up every time.
Complaining about legitimate and legal applications of the rules and how people built their characters is kinda childish.
Legitimate and legal applications of the rules is all I'm asking for (and to be honest, am a little tired of having to ask for).
Look, I knew going in that we'd be competing with Force users who, intentionally or not, would benefit from the imbalanced nature of the Saga rules. That's fine. With a focused build and smart play, we can compete just fine -- as long as the rules are applied fairly.
My complaint is that, since the PvP portion began, distances have been retconned in a way that benefits the Jedi, sidelining Rennah and I and leaving us with nothing to do but point out the repeated attempts to apply the rules incorrectly or interpret the (admittedly, sometimes unclear) circumstances in a way that advantages the Jedi.
That's not a role I find to be very fun. I would much rather get back to playing, whether PvP or not, but that only works if the rules are applied evenly and the limitations on Force powers enforced strictly -- preferably without our team having to speak up every time.
Fair enough, as I stated, the GM will do a better job of that. Keep in mind this is my first go at the Star wars Saga system which is a system that has some holes in it.
I do believe though that I did not retcon distance, I simply mischaracterized it upon my return in order to try and bring you and Rennah into the PvP thread faster.
Let's all remember that we are here to have fun but as in many RPG's some of you may die. That's the way it goes sometimes.
Now that all grievances I think have been aired and addressed are we all ready to get back to playing? :-)
So using what a character is designed to do is now bad? I think that the other group is applying a double standard. No one on our team is complaining about what the other team has done. Caleb asks for clarification and people begin acting as if they are the GM.
I am not condemning you for trying to ambush the party, it is a valid strategy. However, your team seems to be unhappy with how our team has decided to respond. Complaining about legitimate and legal applications of the rules and how people built their characters is kinda childish.
I really am thinking that this game is probably over, people want to do PVP but on their terms, it seems.
Never said you can't do what a character is designed to do, I was merely directly refuting your point that "as far as I can tell the jedi team has not used many, if any jedi powers in this combat despite being ambushed and shot at." By my count, you have attempted to use 10 of them in 5 rounds. That's a lot more than not many. I'm not unhappy with how you've responded, in the sense of you giving chase. That's part of the game. I'm a little unhappy that Caleb has rolled like three 20s and refreshed his power suite multiple times in one fight, but that's the RNG. I'm a little unhappy I got chucked into a wall, but Caleb's probably a little unhappy I blew half his chest open. These things happen. I'm not even all that unhappy that we're having disagreements! That's gonna happen in a PvP game, in regards to whether we think certain powers should work at certain times, if certain things should affect other things, etc.
What upsets me is when you make erroneous claims and then turn my refutation of that claim into an attack against me. I'm unhappy that after clearly painting our "ambush" of you in a negative context, you then act like you weren't doing that. In regards to "acting like I'm the GM", I provided clarification, which is what he asked for. I have played this game a lot, I know the rules well, so I answered. Is there something wrong with a player providing another player clarification on the rules? I perhaps could have been less authoritative about it, I suppose, but I'm used to providing that sort of clarification as a GM; the lexicon bleeds over a bit. When it comes to rules, have you ever run a game by RAW? I mean, completely Rules As Written, no changes or substitutes? By the rules of DnD 3.5, you can drown someone back to life. By the rules of that same game, trees are immune to Disintegrate. By the rules of THIS game, you have a 1/20 chance with Negate Energy of completely absorbing a shot from the Death Star. I can go on and on about how game systems have bad rulings and loopholes that are a result of improper balance testing. When it comes to SWSE, Jedi are basically just DnD wizards that can also hit things really hard, and if there's one thing WotC has had a hard time doing it's balancing wizards with people who aren't wizards. SWSE is no exception to that rule.
You seem to think that Errin and I are attacking you, personally, which is not what we're doing. We're arguing that a strict and legal interpretation of the rules is necessary in some ways in a game like this. Moreover, as Errin mentioned, she and Rennah have been unable to even join this fight at all; with Kaldo behind the wheel, this means the encounter is essentially 4 vs. 1 at this point and time. I don't think (and I don't believe Errin does, either) that any of you are trying to use rules incorrectly on purpose to benefit yourselves. Still, Quen, you've tried to use at least two different Force abilities on me when you were clearly out of range, which could have been resolved with a quick look in the rulebook so we didn't have to discuss it. You also used a mind-affecting power on a droid, but that can be contributed to not using OOC knowledge, I guess. Still, it's attempting to do something that is easily identifiable by the rules that it simply isn't going to work.
NOW all my greivances are aired, I think. I'm ready to get moving again, and hopefully get our whole party in on the action at some point in the near future.
So using what a character is designed to do is now bad? I think that the other group is applying a double standard. No one on our team is complaining about what the other team has done. Caleb asks for clarification and people begin acting as if they are the GM.
I am not condemning you for trying to ambush the party, it is a valid strategy. However, your team seems to be unhappy with how our team has decided to respond. Complaining about legitimate and legal applications of the rules and how people built their characters is kinda childish.
I really am thinking that this game is probably over, people want to do PVP but on their terms, it seems.
Never said you can't do what a character is designed to do, I was merely directly refuting your point that "as far as I can tell the jedi team has not used many, if any jedi powers in this combat despite being ambushed and shot at." By my count, you have attempted to use 10 of them in 5 rounds. That's a lot more than not many. I'm not unhappy with how you've responded, in the sense of you giving chase. That's part of the game. I'm a little unhappy that Caleb has rolled like three 20s and refreshed his power suite multiple times in one fight, but that's the RNG. I'm a little unhappy I got chucked into a wall, but Caleb's probably a little unhappy I blew half his chest open. These things happen. I'm not even all that unhappy that we're having disagreements! That's gonna happen in a PvP game, in regards to whether we think certain powers should work at certain times, if certain things should affect other things, etc.
What upsets me is when make erroneous claims and then turn my refutation of that claim into an attack against me. I'm unhappy that after clearly painting our "ambush" of you in a negative context, you then act like you weren't doing that. In regards to "acting like I'm the GM", I provided clarification, which is what he asked for. I have played this game a lot, I know the rules well, so I answered. Is there something...
Good, I am glad we are done airing grievances!
You are all wonderful players (most of you pay in more games for me than just this one as I run 9 others here on the boards), the GM has had a bad run of it. I appreciate you all sticking in here with me as I learn this rules set.
One correction though, Garrett was thrown into an open filed not a wall. Just sayin' :-)
The character would not have known that you were droid. It just seems to me that you want to have things both way, when it is to your advantage and when it is not then, other players should not dare.
I did try to use powers but was told I was out of range so I changed my actions. I didn't complain at all about it. Trying and accomplishing are two different things.
Perhaps from now on, why don't you tell people exactly what you want them to do so that you can get your way whenever you want it? That might be fun for you and get what it is you want.
The character would not have known that you were droid. It just seems to me that you want to have things both way, when it is to your advantage and when it is not then, other players should not dare.
I did try to use powers but was told I was out of range so I changed my actions. I didn't complain at all about it. Trying and accomplishing are two different things.
Perhaps from now on, why don't you tell people exactly what you want them to do so that you can get your way whenever you want it? That might be fun for you and get what it is you want.
Please try to refrain from these sorts of interactions, what kind of Jedi mantra is that!? :-)
Can that be the last grievance aired? :-) Pretty please? :-)
I'm all done and OK with the actions as stated. :-)
The character would not have known that you were droid. It just seems to me that you want to have things both way, when it is to your advantage and when it is not then, other players should not dare.
I did try to use powers but was told I was out of range so I changed my actions. I didn't complain at all about it. Trying and accomplishing are two different things.
Perhaps from now on, why don't you tell people exactly what you want them to do so that you can get your way whenever you want it? That might be fun for you and get what it is you want.
Thanks for being super rude! I'm glad we're all adults here.
Like I said, GM, ready to move on. I'm done with this argument.
... so at what point do you start earning Dark Side points for it?
When it becomes the first choice, not the last reserve.
-------------------
Also, I am on-board.
... so at what point do you start earning Dark Side points for it?When it becomes the first choice, not the last reserve.
Well yeah, but at what point do you differentiate between knowing its your only choice and your best choice, you know? I don't think you're anywhere near this line, like Rennah said, but it's something to think about in general. There're no hard rules for when you gain Dark Side points for using a power that doesn't have a Dark Side descriptor, so you always have to figure that out for yourself.
Isn't that what the GM needs to determine?
That's true; by 'yourself' I didn't so much mean an individual player, but more the group you're playing with; I phrased it the way I did because I was referring to if we were participating in separate games. Certainly the GM is the final arbiter of that decision, but I think it's only fair that players get to say their peace as well; something our GM has been very good about doing, for which I am grateful. Still, though, ultimately it's something that you have to figure out without the help of the rules.
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Updates to the I/C thread tomorrow night.
Good news, I found a player to replace AJTD1, he'll be sticking around for a while I've been gaming with him since 1996.
Did AJDTD1 ever say why he dropped?
Did AJDTD1 ever say why he dropped?
He vanished from the boards unfortunately. He was a very steady poster for years so I fear something not so great happened to him. Hope he is alright. :-(
I liked his character. Will the replacement be playing the droid or will we have a new character coming in?
I liked his character. Will the replacement be playing the droid or will we have a new character coming in?
He is replacing the Droid. My powers of persuasion are as strong as ever, I have replaced Caleb twice, Gunnar once and now AJTD1 once. When this arc is over likely Caleb and Gunnar's players will create new Jedi (or Jedi allies) for Part II of the Campaign. Not sure what my friend will do.
Do you think I will be able to find a padawan?
It's unfortunate when players just disappear, but unfortunately it happens. I think the craziest thing in that vein that happened to me was I was running Council of Thieves, and a player disappeared without a trace. He was a regular poster and left games behind as both a player and GM. About two months later, the guy shoots me a PM; turns out he collapsed at work and was in a stress-related coma for about two weeks. He wasn't allowed to so much as touch anything electronic until the doctor said so. It sounded pretty crazy, but who makes something like that up?
Do you think I will be able to find a padawan?
In Chapter 2, yes but not here on this Godsforsaken world :-)
One last dot...
Aight Michele, you are now dotted into all Threads as the DM has made life easy for you.... :-)
Ok
Lap top had a frigging meltdown last night. Will update tonight.
Ugh, my buddy seems to have decided that he cannot handle the SW game after all. I will need to re -recruit.
Was waiting for his update, I will DMPC him for now.
I might be able to find someone who'd be interested in playing. I can ask around if you'd like; if you'd rather I didn't since I'm on another "team", I understand. I run three games here on the boards, I could ask there too.
I might be able to find someone who'd be interested in playing. I can ask around if you'd like; if you'd rather I didn't since I'm on another "team", I understand. I run three games here on the boards, I could ask there too.
I would like that! :-)
Hello.
I am the noobiest of noobs.
But I like Star Wars.
Hope that, and a ton of reading I'm about to do, will be enough.