Seriously the hoops I am trying to jump through to get a sneak attack.
Heh. Didn't realize he wasn't visible to begin with. The bluff was probably unnecessary... but thanks for the explanation nevertheless!
Yeah, I would assume with the distraction of the ash and silence the guy could stealth. It might work better for him to attack, then give his taunt, but it works thematically for a villain ;-)
First off - very, very well done. You all kicked serious ass in that encounter. Your prep work and buffs, along with your tactical choices were exemplary. You are a great group of players and I am blessed to GM you all.
Some meta if you will. Some story elements I will hold off on now, depending on what you do with them, but I would like to talk about some issues if you all will indulge me
Firsts both NPCs were created to be synergistic. I personally thought the introduction of the rat NPC as a rat in a rat swarm would have worked better to my advantage but you were too powerful for a swarm.
And the hooded man technically has bleed -4. After he one shotted Arimar I was worried that he was too powerful. In hindsight, getting sneak attack is a royal pain in the ass and I wish I would have applied it so that it would have caused Gwen (or another character) to use CLW and give up a turn.
Also, one of you hit the rat when she was casting a Summon spell and she lost it. Nice work there.
Lastly, the rat was about to attack the bookkeeper next round after using her Scent ability to pinpoint the bookkeeper. Malgrim got there just in time. I would have liked to heal but I wanted to try and get to the bookkeeper ASAP.
All in all, great job and I hope it was enjoyable.
I'm a little curious about the knife master, still wondering how you managed 4 shots as a full round action? Rapid shot gives you 1 extra... haste, too? He'd also need quick draw to fire more than 2 knives per round if he's using knives instead of arrows (unless I'm missing my guess). Quite feat intensive, I'm sure!
He was deadly as for Arimar, but luckily he was heavily armored and not heavily dextrous! The bleed would have been fine if I was conscious (swift lay on hands) but the rat swarm fixed that! So, yeah, he didn't one-shot me, he had help... only just needed, but still. :-P
It's unusual to be able to get a full-attack with sneak attacks, but you managed quite well... so well done!
We'll leave off the promised flat-footed discussion, if that's okay with you. I sometimes forget we're no longer playing PFS. My apologies.
I'm a little curious about the knife master, still wondering how you managed 4 shots as a full round action? Rapid shot gives you 1 extra... haste, too? He'd also need quick draw to fire more than 2 knives per round if he's using knives instead of arrows (unless I'm missing my guess). Quite feat intensive, I'm sure!
Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Quick Draw, Two-weapon Fighting
We'll leave off the promised flat-footed discussion, if that's okay with you. I sometimes forget we're no longer playing PFS. My apologies.
No problem, rules are not my forte :).
Does two-weapon fighting count for ranged attacks, or did he somehow get me in melee?
Yes it does count for ranged. You could even use hand crossbows or anything light. You would need to reload and that is where Quick Draw comes in.
A few hours reading the Advice message board is very eye opening.
Holy shit. Ranged two-weapon fighting? That's f!&+ing nuts. I thought that's what rapid shot was for!
Would love a link to the official note on the message board where they clarified that as legal! Got one?
Nevermind, found it! While the feat and two-weapon fighting in general say "wield", the PRD also says:
Thrown Weapons
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapons when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
F@#~ing HELL! There's a whole character build out there for me somewhere that takes advantage of that... but I have a sneaking suspicion that going proper ranged might be better long run.
Mind you, there are plenty of advantages to be had in the two weapon arena that could make it worthwhile. Add in a monk dip, ranger dip... hmm....
Nevermind, found it! While the feat and two-weapon fighting in general say "wield", the PRD also says:
Thrown Weapons
The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapons when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.
F%#+ing HELL! There's a whole character build out there for me somewhere that takes advantage of that... but I have a sneaking suspicion that going proper ranged might be better long run.
Mind you, there are plenty of advantages to be had in the two weapon arena that could make it worthwhile. Add in a monk dip, ranger dip... hmm....
For certain classes such as knife fighter or Warlock Vigilante, Two-weapon fighting is better than rapid shot. The limiting factor is that those fighting styles generally have some inherent drawback (range issues, etc)
One of my PFS players had a boomerang build that was... interesting, but took a stupid number of feats for the upshot of being able to melee / throw with boomerangs.
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Ok, so a couple of thoughts on what to do in the game, sincere apologies for breaking into the build discussion... :)
I just wanted to echo Dam-imar's thoughts on what to do here. It seems like we are being forced to make a decision, pick the bookkeeper or Lanvi. I'm not entirely sure what to do here.
If we feel like we have to leave to go rescue Lanvi, then my first instinct would be to bring the bookkeeper with us, as he would be safer with us than not, but that also obviously puts a big damper on the whole reason we came here to begin with.
Crap...Meeting. Back in a bit
A few thoughts on the fight:
It was certainly a fun, if annoying combat ;) I actually really enjoy tactical fights and this by far was the toughest I've played in for a while. Losing Arimar in the first round was rough but if we hadn't I *do* think the action economy might have made the fight a lot more in our favor.
On precision characters: precision based characters are difficult, and mostly feasible with flank buddies. Ranged-based precision has a lot less support. You really have to plan around what will be enabling your extra damage, or it can be very frustrating.
Specific to the fight:
There were several times that I wasn't sure what the squares were. This often isn't as big of an issue, except when things like difficult terrain make every square really matter. For other upcoming "difficult fights" it would be good to put down gridlines, even if one of us does it, just so everyone is on the same page.
It might have been a bit cleaner to have started combat when the Alarm was triggered. This would have given us a round to finalize where our characters were, cast last second second / short duration buffs, and would have made the initial knife barrage a little less devastating. The rule of thumb I try to follow is what would trigger the action to go as granular as into rounds being the start of "Combat."
The bleed would definitely have added a sense of urgency to the fumbling in the ash, although we likely would have lost Arimar to it :/ It was a really hard call on whether to get Arimar back into the fight or not, but hovering at 1d8+x hp can be a death sentence.
A more meta topic is how our campaign is starting to get into the point that magic can fundamentally alter the nature of combats: the fight was largely won by our group being able to answer the enemy spellcaster's actions. If it had been Gwen that was taken out in the first round of combat we probably would have been hosed. None of the party (currently ;)) is a full caster, so there's a potential that we'll get out-magicked unless we start investing more in consumables... though I'm not sure what the consumable counter to Ash / Sleet Storm other than Dispel Magic.
Anyway, it certainly was fun! Hope the holiday prep is going well.
All excellent points and I appreciate the feedback.
As for the interrogation - totally fine by me but the information they have it vital to the plot. Feel free to post some rolls, I know you all so I will give some RP bonus. Later today or early tomorrow I can info-dump all the two have to say.
As for choosing between Lanvi and the Bookkeeper - don't.
9 posts today, not including this one... do you think that perhaps I was holding something in for some reason? Sorry about the overflow, boys. I'll let someone else chat to the invaders for a bit... maybe.
You have been missed.
Waiting on Gwen to weigh in then I will move this forward.
Here's the kicker. If we had killed them, we'd get their loot... quite a haul! Over 20,000 in liquid gp if all is sold. Now, for a chance to get on their good side, we impoverish ourselves and we have to deal with this turd's attitude. What's more, it's 'evil' if we kill them now because we talked to them.
This doesn't even scratch the surface of why I hate interrogations in RPGs.
Will wait for Gwen, but I as a player won't lose any sleep if the guy in the hoody suddenly develops a quick death.
I know I know but you are doing really well. Your collective plan is perfect. Just waiting to see if you can sway Ontor. But if you kill him ... it is not the evil moniker (which I wouldn't give you) it's the perpetual enemy in House Derexhi. That is why we did a little insy tineey interrogation.
It will all be over soon.
The problem with intimidate is that the effects are (necessarily) limited in duration. Hopefully it'll let him know we're not weak, while Gwen comes in with the one-two punch of Diplomacy!
Haha, 'waiting on Gwen for the one-two punch of diplomacy'. I can virtually roll the dice, but you dude's have got basically all of the good points covered already in this interrogation. I'm afraid I'll basically say, 'yeah, what they said', :)
Also, I'm sorry for the delay. Went for drinks and tonight is our simi-monthly World of Warcraft game, as well. I'll be sure to post something tonight or tomorrow morning,
Sorry again!
Getting ready for a flight out so I might not have time for an IC post, but I agree with the deal, with the stipulation that we turn over the information as long as it isn't actively damaging to our current employer (vaguely in those terms.)
I hate holiday travel :P
No worries. Tonight should be my last post until Monday sometime.
Happy Christmas!
For Chris and Mike, who haven't seen this yet, Merry Christmas mates!
(Yes, that is me in a Santa suit, courtesy of Photoshop).
Hahahah, that is amazing!
Is that actually a picture of you beneath the snowy, white beard? I can't recognize you at all!
Side note, I love Arimar's post (copied below) and it made me think of what I always thought was a great line/scene from the show Justified...
Arimar then moves over to where the four daggers that were thrown at him lie and picks each of them up very deliberately. Then, equally deliberately, he places them down one at a time on the hooded man's lap. "Throw anything at me again and I will return them to you... much... more... swiftly." He grins and stands, waiting to see if his companions agree with his acceptance of the deal.
Never seen it, but I'm certain my subconscious has picked it up from somewhere! Definitely me beneath the beard, too... makes me think that a Santa suit would make an awesome disguise for doing crime and stuff.
If it's Hanukkah or Kwanzaa
Solstice, Harvest, or December 25th
Peace on Earth to everyone
And abundance to everyone you're with!
(Holiday stuff should be winding down tomorrow giving me a day to catch up.)
Monitoring the threads again. Just waiting for... who is it... oh, yeah, Gwen. ;-)
... and the GM. :-P
Hope all of you had a wonderful time.
Sorry, Christmas afterglow.
Back to regular spotty posting :)
Cliff notes version of Oscar's debrief:
The Versade Family (Lanvi rivals) have very incriminating evidence that the Vanderale Family (most powerful in Magnimar) are involved in the drug trade. Malgrim stole that evidence and the bookkeeper just translated so a court or other government entity would be able to use it as evidence against them.
Well I, for one, am glad I went with the more interesting long term payoff of the coded documents over the Consumable stores. It was a gamble, but glad you were able to work it into something interesting :)
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Sick at home all day with a sick munchkin. Ilk get a part up tomorrow morning. Just wanted to point out some of the things we still don't know is information this guy owes us.
-Posted with Wayfinder
Monitoring the threads again. Just waiting for... who is it... oh, yeah, Gwen. ;-)
Darn you, Arimar. No one else might have noticed my absence if you hadn't pointed it out :)
Sorry for the delay, everyone. I got a post up just now.
Sick at home all day with a sick munchkin. Ilk get a part up tomorrow morning. Just wanted to point out some of the things we still don't know is information this guy owes us.
Good catch, Benaiah. You're right, we were still looking for this info. I had Gwen ask Ontor to give us these details, in the post I put up a few minutes ago.
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Ok, so I asked the question in character, and in character discussion would be best, but I also don't want to spend a week talking about what we might do if there is a way to expedite that process a bit.
So to try to recap, here is what I think we know:
(please correct me where appropriate...)
We've got the Versade family by the short and curlies. Before the dust settles, either Versade or Lanvi will be no more, and we have the power to tip the scales in Lanvi's favor.
-The Versade's are the ones actively trying to stop us
-The Handmaiden is working through the Vanderale family, with the Versade family to take her mother down.
-Most likely the Mindurian family is being pressured by either or both of those houses to not help us gather the stone. We need to figure out how to flip them to our side.
-The Hellknights are somehow involved in this, and have some sort of Autonomy to operate from the Mayor. We feel pretty confident they have been looking for us... or at least trying to identify the party crashers.
----This is still unknown, but could also point to some level of involvement in this drug trafficking conspiracy at the governmental level.
Things we need to accomplish??:
-Eliminate the Handmaiden, or at least her influence
-Turn the Mindurian family into allies, or at least stop whatever is blocking them from helping us
There is probably more. I'm not sure the best way to use the new information we have to complete either of these things. There is a note on the information page about a 4th family who has fallen on hard times. I can't think of a way yet, but it might be possible to dangle the carrot of a return to glory to get them as allies as well.
That's a good summary. I'll see if I can add anything later, but figuring out how we can make allies out of exposing this information (essentially giving a stock tip of the century) is the best course I can see. We've already seen what one family that's making stabs at retrieving it can do, I'm not sure we're set up to stand up to 2+ major Houses making a concerted effort to retrieve it rather than just paying out the blackmail.
Nice summary, Benaiah. I've tried to address some of those points in character. Killing the handmaiden isn't exactly paladin work... and Lanvi will likely have an idea on how to deal with her daughter (when we wake her).
I assumed that the Vanderales or Versades were stopping the guilds from helping us, and were the ones who hired the Hellknight Order of the Nail. Pretty sure we discovered as much earlier on.
We've got the Versade family by the short and curlies.
No. You have the Vanderale Family by the s & c
Before the dust settles, either Versade or Lanvi will be no more, and we have the power to tip the scales in Lanvi's favor.
Quite possible.
-The Versade's are the ones actively trying to stop us
-The Handmaiden is working through the Vanderale family, with the Versade family to take her mother down.
She is working with the Versade family to gather information on the Vanderale family
-Most likely the Mindurian family is being pressured by either or both of those houses to not help us gather the stone. We need to figure out how to flip them to our side.
-The Hellknights are somehow involved in this, and have some sort of Autonomy to operate from the Mayor. We feel pretty confident they have been looking for us... or at least trying to identify the party crashers.
----This is still unknown, but could also point to some level of involvement in this drug trafficking conspiracy at the governmental level.
Excellent. What you are missing is how or even was the Versade Family using the information on the Vanderale Family.
Things we need to accomplish??:-Eliminate the Handmaiden, or at least her influence
-Turn the Mindurian family into allies, or at least stop whatever is blocking them from helping usThere is probably more. I'm not sure the best way to use the new information we have to complete either of these things. There is a note on the information page about a 4th family who has fallen on hard times. I can't think of a way yet, but it might be possible to dangle the carrot of a return to glory to get them as allies as well.
Great start
Sorry for the slightly convoluted response to Benaiah, was out with the family and rushed it a bit.
So you know that House Versade hired House Derexhi against you.
You currently don't know who hired the Hellknights to look for the ledger.
You currently don't know House Vanderale's status. Was House Versade blackmailing them, allied with them, or something else?
To recap, what you really need to do in order is
- take back Lanvi's manor.
- Then you need to decide what you are going to do with your ammunition, in the form of the ledgers.
Of the eight houses:
Allies
House Derexhi
Enemies
House Versade
Unknow allegiance
House Kaddren (Arimar met a son of this house with his golems)
House Mindurian (you know them)
House Vanderale (Most powerful family in Magnimar, you know they are involved in the drug trade)
Unknow allegiance and currently unknown
House Nirodin (great family, arts)
House Scarnetti (great family, shipbuilding)
House Valdemar (great family, fishing)
Great info there! Any chance you could hook up a Google Doc to the campaign (like your dice rolls) that we can edit to keep track of all of this?
Call it Plans & Politics or something like that?
Arimar's plan (from gameplay) in summary form:
- Ledger to be stored inside a Pathfinder Pouch at the Vault of Abadar.
- Khania to deliver the ledger to the Lord Justice if we don't report back every interval (suggesting weekly).
- Living Will to be drawn up that places the ledger in the hands of the Lord Justice if all of us die.
- Pick up the papers for the manor at the Vault when we drop off the ledger.
- Send a letter to the Vanderales demanding they allow the Mindurians to deal with us again, and that they encourage the Versades to call off the Hellknights and any other contracts on us.
- Ride into town on a pale horse and take the manor back! Erm, after studying the floor plan and making some tactical decisions first, of course.
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Yessssssssss
[insert .gif of Jonah Hill clenching his fist in Moneyball]
So that has my approval. Lets Do it!
Great info there! Any chance you could hook up a Google Doc to the campaign (like your dice rolls) that we can edit to keep track of all of this?
Call it Plans & Politics or something like that?
Done. :)
Thanks for the doc! Been trying to put in my own thoughts in some semblance of order in the doc.
In doing so, I've come to a realization: we're not opposed to the Vanderales. They document was at Versade manor, and the only reason the Versades would have (and want) this document is to blackmail the Vanderales... unless of course they are the Vanderales' book keepers.
GM, I know you were trying to say this earlier, but "Vanderale" and "Versade" became very much confused in my mind (in much the same way that "Paul" and "Peter" do... same letter to start with, similar level of linguistic familiarity). Can I put in a personal request that we never deal with house "Valdemar"? I don't think my mind could cope.
The thing I'm unsure of here is the handmaiden's involvement and the various houses' stance on Mistress Lanvi. GM, can you please confirm the following?
- The handmaiden was with the Vanderales to get into the Versade party, correct?
- The Vanderales are a more major house in Magnimar than the Versades are, but the Versades are still quite major. Yes?
- How do the Versades and Vanderales feel about Mistress Lanvi? I got the impression that neither liked her, but one was an enemy of hers. I would like confirmation, now that we're getting a little more clarity on the situation in town.
In doing so, I've come to a realization: we're not opposed to the Vanderales. They document was at Versade manor, and the only reason the Versades would have (and want) this document is to blackmail the Vanderales... unless of c
GM, I know you were trying to say this earlier, but "Vanderale" and "Versade" became very much confused in my mind (in much the same way that "Paul" and "Peter" do... same letter to start with, similar level of linguistic familiarity). Can I put in a personal request that we never deal with house "Valdemar"? I don't think my mind could cope.
The above is 100% correct!
Point taken. I have a cousin with a similar surname and I have had to edit that. Sorry :)* The handmaiden was with the Vanderales to get into the Versade party, correct?
The Handmiden was working with the Versades on the Vanderales.
* The Vanderales are a more major house in Magnimar than the Versades are, but the Versades are still quite major. Yes?
Yes! There are eight major houses and you have had some semblance of interaction with 5 of them.
* How do the Versades and Vanderales feel about Mistress Lanvi? I got the impression that neither liked her, but one was an enemy of hers. I would like confirmation, now that we're getting a little more clarity on the situation in town.
Versades are her bitterest rival. You do not know the Vandersales stance of yet.
Okay, so since the Versades are unlikely to be the Vanderales' book keepers, it's safe to assume that they are enemies or at least rivals with one blackmailing the other.
In which case, perhaps we should actually be returning the book to them in return for some kind of alliance. What do you say, boys? I can retcon Arimar's thoughts in character if you like, but threatening the Vanderales seems to put us at odds with them and the Versades unnecessarily.
With the extra bit about the handmaiden, too, that makes sense... but I thought she was angling for an invitation to the Versade party through her association with Zakon Vanderale. Wasn't he the one she was chatting to when Gwen observed the exchange of invitations? Then we saw them smoking at the party, and had that conversation together (noted on the doc now).
But turns out she was working with the Versades all along? And they're the ones occupying Lanvi's mansion? That kinda makes more sense... and would make more sense out of an alliance with the Vanderales.
So, Malgrim isn't the sort to make moral judgement, but the Vanderales are clearly committed to an unlawful and probably evil drug-trade. The information wouldn't be so valuable if it wasn't damning and disruptive. Additionally, Blackmail really is a moraly dark-gray area, regardless of the reasons or implementation.
Malgrim is all for the most effective way to get out of the situation alive and advance the cause, but he really isn't cut out for moralistic insight or political maneuvering.
(I am also not the sort to second guess how the GM and Player deal with Paladin Code of Honor, but I figured I'd at least play Devil's (Archon's?) Advocate ;))
Different subject, but I thought we had a good idea that the Handmaiden was working with them. I seem to recall Lanvi saying something to that effect when we revealed to her that the Handmaiden was at the party.
Thanks for the advice. Forgot about the drugs bit.
That said, Arimar is still striving to be a true paladin. His past and his past attitudes are still very much muddying the waters here.
As for the Handmaiden working with them, Malgrim, you're probably right. I just wanted to clarify here because of my Versade / Vanderale mind mix-up.
Heh, no worries here. Sometimes my inner Sarcastic-Good personality wants to express itself in ways Malgrim is incapable of :D There's also some oddness that by rights the moral compass of the party is a reformed ex-necromancer, so I don't really see anyone else voicing that sort of thing.
All good an salient points. Bit under the influence, but will try to post coherently.
First off - House Vanderale. I hadn't decided whether they are victims or willing accomplices. Part of their family is super guilty.
If you are all interested in Magnimar politics, we can make interactions with House Vanderale complex, or if not we can make it simple.
House Versade on the other hand, was designed to be, and always will be your adversaries.
In regards to the Paladin Code, being LG in RL, I view the paladin code as In this complex and unfair situation, what do you do?
I have lots of prep work to do, there will be some fun and interesting NPCs, and I had planned on the Take back the manor to be more cinematic, but since you all seem so stoked, I will make some of it rolling good times.
Happy you are all happy, Cheers!