So, John, from a GM perspective - would you like us to talk to the Vanderales in person, or is a semi-blackmail semi-"we'll keep it safe" letter all you want right now? I ask what you want, because the politics are heating up, but we still haven't even secured a source of stone to repair the aquifer yet, and now we need to retake the mansion (something I'm looking forward to).
By the way, perfectly happy to be cinematic about the villa if you prefer... but since I fell unconscious in the last one, I'd like to redeem myself.
Since we've been there and have deeds to the place, and have a Lanvi for emergency questions, I think it might be reasonable to have a map of the villa. I know this can be a pain of a thing to find... and I've got a decent map for a mansion that I've never used, which I can either email to you or set up on Google Drawings if you like. Just let me know.
Thanks for the help Arimar, email sent.
So I am working on the next few scenes, busy with NYE and all. I hope to have the story move forward by early next week. Part of taking back the manor will be cinematic, part will be roll. I have a few surprises in store.
In the meantime, please do write a Cease and Desist letter to the Versade family, and decide whether you want to work with the Vanderale or bring them down.
Lastly, the Valdemar family will only play a role in transporting you to <redacted>, so no more Vs.
Be safe all.
Just quickly, how would a cease and desist work against the Versades?
I had them mixed up earlier, but I now know the ledger is ammunition against the Vanderales. What reason would the Versades have to stop?
Just quickly, how would a cease and desist work against the Versades?
I had them mixed up earlier, but I now know the ledger is ammunition against the Vanderales. What reason would the Versades have to stop?
They no longer have anything to hold over the Vanderales so they have no leverage.
I meant what reason would they have to stop attacking us?
Had some free time this morning.
This document is getting big quickly. It's even starting to get something of a structure going. I think it will be very handy to keep it maintained as the campaign progresses.
Wow - top shelf work there, as always!
Thanks mate... perhaps in all the guff, you lost this question:
I meant what reason would they have to stop attacking us?
If this is something we know, of course... otherwise, we'll have to try to figure it out.
Detente
House Versade needed the ledger, they have lost it. There is no reason to continue to go after you for the ledger. Does that make sense?
Hey boys, how is this for a letter to each of the Houses?
Versade:
You have failed to retrieve the documents from us prior to our translation of them. The paperwork is now secured, and you can no longer reach it. Cease your hostility toward us and we will pursue the matter no further. Should you fail in this, we will respond with lethal force if necessary, and using the full extent of the Justice System and with the full support of the Church of Abadar.
We hope it will not come to such, but feel the need to express our position. We believe you know who we are and to what we refer, and further that you know that we mean every word in written in this missive.
Vanderale:
We have recently come into possession of documents that the Versades were no doubt using to blackmail you. Those documents have been translated and they are safe, for now. If you are not aware, members of your house have been dabbling in illicit activities with goods from Katapesh.
It is our preference to remain on good terms with your house. We hope that our keeping of these documents out of Versade hands can be taken as a gesture of good will. However, we are not yet willing to hand them over to you. In the event of our death or capture, instructions have been left that will place the documents in the hands of the Lord Justice. Thus, it is in your own best interests to see to it that we are not killed or detained.
[i]Of particular concern to us are hostile actions taken against us by House Versade. We are going to make strides to secure our property back from them. Once done, we should be in a position to better discuss this situation further. Should you be interested in doing so, we are sure you will know how to make contact.
Hey boys, how is this for a letter to each of the Houses?
Versade:
You have failed to retrieve the documents from us prior to our translation of them. The paperwork is now secured, and you can no longer reach it. Cease your hostility toward us and we will pursue the matter no further. Should you fail in this, we will respond with lethal force if necessary, and using the full extent of the Justice System and with the full support of the Church of Abadar.
We hope it will not come to such, but feel the need to express our position. We believe you know who we are and to what we refer, and further that you know that we mean every word in written in this missive.
Vanderale:
We have recently come into possession of documents that the Versades were no doubt using to blackmail you. Those documents have been translated and they are safe, for now. If you are not aware, members of your house have been dabbling in illicit activities with goods from Katapesh.
It is our preference to remain on good terms with your house. We hope that our keeping of these documents out of Versade hands can be taken as a gesture of good will. However, we are not yet willing to hand them over to you. In the event of our death or capture, instructions have been left that will place the documents in the hands of the Lord Justice. Thus, it is in your own best interests to see to it that we are not killed or detained.
[i]Of particular concern to us are hostile actions taken against us by House Versade. We are going to make strides to secure our property back from them. Once done, we should be in a position to better discuss this situation further. Should you be interested in doing so, we are sure you will know how to make contact.
Love the letters, Arimar. I especially like the bit to Vanderale, making it clear it is in their best interest for us to remain unhindered/unhurt. Whether they that means they refrain from attacking us, or even better, maybe even help keep us safe.
Super neat!
SO just a quick note, you can wait the seven days and a contingent of Abadar will assist you in taking back the house, or got it alone. Juthor will not stop you, but it might make his job more difficult.
Working on the map today, still on 'vacation' so I am doing the best I can with the limited amount of time that I have,
Second that the letter sounds good.
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Third the letters, looks great.
Benaiah would only suggest to make a reference to the hellknights as well.
"Cease your hostility toward us, call off your hellhounds, and we will pursue the matter no further."
If that is too specific, or doesn't sound good then never mind. Just don't want to create something they think they can worm their way around, not that it should matter since we have the upper hand now.
One other question, do we need to say something specifically about making sure that the Mindurian house no longer stonewalls us? (hehehehe)
Thanks for doing that also Arimar!
Maps updated - thanks for that Arimar.
You will notice that I added a room to level 2. That will be the where the BBEG most likely place to find the Handmaiden, if she is there.
Man that Plans and Politics document is so awesome Arimar - I still find myself getting confused on what has happened, and how the web is tangled, but that helps me sort it out every time I review it.
I'll do my best to add to it when I can.
Sorry that my plotline has been so convoluted. Next adventure will be more liner.
THanks again Arimar for all your work there.
In other posting news, I have always loved the blind monk trope and I am a bit sad that he won't be used in this part of the adventure. Still plan on statting him up, there are some really great new feats in the splatbooks for blinded characters.
Sorry for the delay today, boys. I was free before 7am and then not until now.
Glad everyone's getting some use out of that document!
We probably don't need to debate much longer than it takes for our GM to have the encounter ready for us.
God willing, tomorrow afternoon. I have 80% of the NPCs fleshed out, and 0% time remaining.
See you all on the flip side.
"May you uphold all the laws."
By the way, this right here is one big gripe that I have with many RPG adventure plots. We as players have no idea in any given situation whether or not our actions contravene the law of the land. We travel to so many different lands, and there are so many varied legal systems (especially in Pathfinder's kitchen sink world) that it would be impossible to know all the laws of the countries, cities and towns you visit.
Largely, laws (and the breaking of them) are included for flavor, but when it becomes a plot point (eg. arrested for murder after being ambushed on a city street) it can be unfair in the extreme. Take the current situation for a further example. We're taking back Lanvi's house, which we are now the legal owners (or caretakers) of. We'll try to forcefully eject these people, but how much force is lawful? Can we kill them? Maim them? Who knows?
For the most part, these laws have never been codified (understandable, since coming up with even a single set for a given setting would be a painstaking and thankless task). So it's up to the GM to arbitrate based upon what he knows of the current government. Some countries, like Rahadoum, have very specific or strange laws that are called out*. That aside, though... it's very vague and ill defined.
* Even then, in Heresy of Man, we unfairly were blind-sided by laws and authorities on the specifics of the strange law. F*cking PFS.
For a lawful character, it can be extremely painful to find out post hoc that you've disobeyed a law. More to the point, I don't want to check with the GM every time whether or not a strategy or action is illegal. Doing that mid-combat would be disruptive and counter-productive... and not fun.
In our current situation, I find myself nervous that somehow we will get offside with the Church of Abadar (and other rightful authorities) by inadvertently breaking a law.
Previously, it has been an assumption that what the Hellknights were doing was illegal, but it's hard to go at it with them with conviction when we don't (and can't) know. That doesn't mean we didn't try - and mad props to John for being reasonable about it and his response with the guards, it was most gratifying - but it's hard.
I guess that's why city adventures have tended to be an exception rather than the norm. No authorities hold sway in the middle of a dungeon - or savage forest (or, if they do, they're typically too far away to do anything about it).
Anyway, that's just my stream of consciousness. Just know, GM, that it is not Arimar's intention to break the laws of Magnimar when taking back the house. He may break the paladin code, but that (at least) is mostly defined and he will deal with that appropriately as and when (and if) it comes up.
I am so sorry that that flavor comment upset you so. It was literally a throw away comment.
Your taking back the manor, if it was unlawful, Justor would have told you outright. Know that you are in the right here, and anything you do will have 0 in game consequences.
I have absolutely no plans for the Church to become an enemy based upon a technicality. That is punitive GMing and I stay away from that in the extreme
So rest assured, murder all the interlopers and let Pharasma sort them out.
Lastly, Magnimar has a very, very loose set of laws. That is why the Church is better than the Council of Ushers or the Justices.
The Hellknights <redacted> so there is that.
ps I take Lawful and Paladin's code as trying to do the best they can in a given situation. So far you have been perfect in the paladin role.
Attack is ready when you are ready. Very excited for this to be the last house encounter for a long, long time!
Dude! The flavor comment did not upset me at all! It merely triggered a stream of consciousness / rant... and is totally only related to RPGs in general and not your game specifically (hope you read my edit comment above).
As I said, you're doing an amazing job adjudicating such things, and it's merely my internalized anxiousness that I thought I'd vocalize as an FYI, but nothing required for you to change in game!
Regardless, thank you for the assurances. I actually do feel better - even though I had no right (or cause) to ask you for said assurances.
Glad you are feeling better - didn't take it personally just wanted to clarify for you. Happy you are happy :)
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So before we kick this shindig off, Benaiah will consume the following extracts/buffs:
- Strength Mutagen
- Bull's Strength
- Enlarge Person
- Phantom Blood
- Shield
- longarm
- Darkvision
- Expeditious Retreat
(Gotta buy me a potion of expeditious retreat though)
I will chip in for the lantern and the shadowcloy flasks, but word to the wise - the lantern needs a new 25gp flask every minute in order to keep the light level down to dim (if it is already bright)
I am worried that might be more hassle to manage than it is worth. If someone wants to take that and the flasks, I am happy to pitch in. Just wanted to mention that it might not be the easiest thing to have with us.
If we decide to ditch the darklight lantern then I will consider swapping my darkvision buff for blur.
However, if we do all have darkvision, then a potentially good tactic as we move through the house would be to put out the lights in each room we enter.
Do we have a haste spell? Heroism is probably best on someone like Arimar or Malgrim, IMO.
Just some thoughts. This should be fun! :) (sorry for the house-style dungeon crawl GM, I know they aren't your favorite...)
With Benaiah and Gwen having darkvision, the lantern should be ditched in favor of some oil of darkness or (if we are going to make this a regular tactic) a wand of darkness.
No haste with this party make-up. Gotta wait for level 7 before Gwen can nab it as a bard spell.
With Benaiah and Gwen having darkvision, the lantern should be ditched in favor of some oil of darkness or (if we are going to make this a regular tactic) a wand of darkness.
No haste with this party make-up. Gotta wait for level 7 before Gwen can nab it as a bard spell.
I'll have Gwen pick up haste as soon as she is able (level 7), to add to her other fluff and buff spells. Whatever she can do to help the party keep control of the situation, without making everyone deafened. Suggestions are always welcome :)
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I'm digging the wand of darkness idea... 2250 split 4 ways? Although Gwen would have to come up with a more reliable way to have darkvision, or she would be stuck getting all the consumables for the tactic.
As a note Gwen - The lantern only makes the light down one step. If it is dim light, and you aren't trying to attack anything, you probably wouldn't need darkvision. Same with the darkness spell. Unless it ends up already being dim light in there... then the lantern would obviously make it dark...
That's true, Benaiah. I was thinking we'd mostly be trying to make the surrounding lighting condition: dark so hopefully the mobs would far less effective. I guess I could buy a pair of goggles that allows seeing in darkness.
So before we kick this shindig off, Benaiah will consume the following extracts/buffs:
- Strength Mutagen
- Bull's Strength
- Enlarge Person
- Phantom Blood
- Shield
- longarm
- Darkvision
- Expeditious Retreat
So 8 buffs on the streets of Magnimar? That might cause attention. Lets assume you have a secure meet up point nearby, and you take your Mutagen, Phantom Blood, Darkvision there and the others before the manor comes in sight, and close enough for the duration to not wear off, say 180 feet or so away, which would be a double move and a half for you with expeditious retreat.
If anyone else has a series of Buffs, can you please fill out my handy new Buff Tracker.
I will move to the manor this weekend, just want to make sure everyone is ready to proceed.
So if I understand this correctly, Hepec makes a distraction at the front gates while Mistress Lanvi forces surround the estate to keep everyone in.
Do you want to do a New Hope where Gwen (disguised) and Arimar (disguised) bring Hepec to the front gate claiming to have found him (Hepec) snooping around? You could be bringing him in to meet with the Handmiden for questioning.
Sorry, I am a bit confused as to what role my NPCs are supposed to play to help you kill my other NPCs.
Just let me know and I will move the game forward.
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I had originally figured just a night raid, sneaky assault, seal team 6 style. If everyone would rather try to sneak in to get to the handmaid in ok with that.
I say we just give Hepec the word, and they can begin the barrage on the windows around the mansion. If there are crossbow men in the windows, we can have our guys make sure to hit those windows and give us cover as we rush the doors.
The are definitely more guards outside than I had expected
-Posted with Wayfinder
I had originally figured just a night raid, sneaky assault, seal team 6 style. If everyone would rather try to sneak in to get to the handmaid in ok with that.
I say we just give Hepec the word, and they can begin the barrage on the windows around the mansion. If there are crossbow men in the windows, we can have our guys make sure to hit those windows and give us cover as we rush the doors.
Whatever works, just let me know. I am going to roll a d100 to determine how successful you are, bonus for exceptional cinematic posts. But you will be successful.
The are definitely more guards outside than I had expected
Good guys - Yellow
Bad guys - blue
Okay, had some time to look at this now. I was a little confused before. If we can bypass the front guards and get inside the mansion, that would be great. We can have Hepec and his men stay outside and if/when we are discovered, we'll send him a message to start an assault on the outer walls, hemming them in and splitting their attention so we can get at the Handmaiden.
Sound good, guys?
If so, we can start working on cinematic posts to that effect... step 1: Gwen and I vs the sleepy guardsmen?
Okay, had some time to look at this now. I was a little confused before. If we can bypass the front guards and get inside the mansion, that would be great. We can have Hepec and his men stay outside and if/when we are discovered, we'll send him a message to start an assault on the outer walls, hemming them in and splitting their attention so we can get at the Handmaiden.
Sound good, guys?
If so, we can start working on cinematic posts to that effect... step 1: Gwen and I vs the sleepy guardsmen?
Sounds good to me, Arimar.
For us vs. the sleepy guards, are we thinking to lure them away so our crew can *bop* them on the head?
Nah, we just did that. Maybe convince them that their shift is over... and to leave the door open so the invisible Benaiah can creep in for some reconnaissance? We are the diplomacy duo.
Rock it out.
Read gameplay first.
I've taken the liberty of moving us on the Lanvi - 2 map. Not sure where Malgrim is relative to it all, since the snipers are marked on the lower level. Gwen has been positioned back a little in case the door explodes. Chris, totally up to you there.
Oh, and I've also had to assume the location of the doors! ;-)
All of this is also assuming everyone is cool with breaking down the door and that we actually make it there.
We should whisper the go ahead to Hepec a moment before we lay into the door.
Thanks, Damien. Gwen's position on the map looks good to me, I'll still be able to inspire courage from that location, peeking around the corner.
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So I checked the table in the PRD for doors and their break DCs just for the fun of it.
The highest DC in there, for a Stone or Iron door, is 28. We just rolled a 31.
So this is exactly the kind of thing I built this character for... Rivaling Giant strength was exactly what I had in mind. Thanks for creating the opportunity for me to use it!!!
Edit: Breaking through a door with a steel bar is listed as DC 30 to break the bar.
Holy balls.
Sorry for the delay everyone - hope to be back on track tonight
I am using the grey box as the floor.
I really wish I was better at Pathfinder rules :(. I have spent an unhealthy amount of time looking this up.
Ok, so here is the situation. Benaiah is buffed with Expeditious Retreat which doubles his speed, and Interposing Hand which halves his speed, essentially canceling out.
He is in a Grease Area that acts like Difficult Terrain but isn't. So is a 5-foot step legal?
You have to make a DC 10 Acrobatics check to move half speed.
You can't take a 5-foot step if your movement is hampered by difficult terrain.
Additional Movement Costs = 2
So Grease mimics the Difficult Terrain, but a PCs movement is altered by speed, not by squares.
So basically, I just Rules Lawyered myself into allowing the 5-foot step, though the illogic of it hurts my brain.
On to Perception. The <GM Special> did not move, and gets a +40 to stealth, +2-3ish for Distance, Benaiah Perception was 28. DC to hear a conversation is 0 (the spell cast had Verbal) so is Benaiah's Perception vs Conversation Heard, or vs <GM> special's Stealth?
Thinking about ruling he can tell the 'Area' eg. 10x10', not pinpointing a Square, eg. 'The Square'.
I am a total mess today - so sorry.
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GM -
So for reference, there are terrain conditions like snow and sand that cost 2 movement squares, but are not considered difficult terrain. Per RAW, you can still 5' step in those. We've actually had that more than once in Reign of Damien.
This is a similar instance, however I will always bend to your ruling. Grease doesn't specifically make the area difficult terrain, it just says that you have to pass an acrobatics to move be able to move at half speed, ie it takes balance and time to shuffle your feet like a penguin, rather than picking your spots between unstable boulders or thick underbrush. Visually, Benaiah just pushed off with one foot and slid a few feet forward, risky business style, though admittedly with less flair. He isn't taking a move action to move, he is taking the free action to slide forward.
Also, I am totally on board with your ruling for the perception. Your flavor text (and as you mentioned, the spell actually has verbal components) says that the spellcaster/gm special spoke out loud. It just seems logical that I should be able to say, "Hey Gwen! The voice came from over there! Cast your spell in that corner!" even if I don't know exactly what square it came from. This actually aligns pretty well with some earlier rulings you have had with the Hellknights and when the bookkeeper and I were invisible, and also in the party when I was invisible.
What makes that fun is suddenly a spell like ventriloquism has a new and interesting use...
Sorry for the mind bending!! Benaiah and his buffs are harder to keep straight than a wizard and his spells...
Correct call, GM, regarding the invisibility / stealth... casting a spell involves speaking loudly in a clear voice, so he'd know enough to help Gwen target with glitterdust. Also, I would rule you can't get the +40 to stealth if you're casting a spell, though he still (obviously) benefits from full concealment.
If he'd moved after casting the spell, that'd be a +20... but he wouldn't be in the square where he'd cast, and Benaiah would have to detect where he moved to (though I suspect he didn't move, since you're saying +40).
However, I think speaking loudly and clearly means he is not attempting stealth at all (ie. not an opposed check). I would say the square is automatically pin-pointed (it is, after all, a 5x5ft area quite close to Benaiah)... but (yeah) full concealment and subsequent bonuses if he shuts up and tries to be quiet (the unwritten rule of being 'stealthy' and thus using the skill is that you don't speak aloud).
More succinctly, he's got the 'hiding' part covered by total concealment, he just missed out on the 'moving silently' component of stealth by casting a spell. ;-)
Speaking of rules lawyering... from a while back, remember the full-round knife attack on Arimar that downed him?
Well, I promised to talk about it later, and now seems a good time.
So let's do away with "while we knew, we could have been casting buffs, ergo in combat rounds" argument. Let's focus on the "we were waiting" argument:
- "Combat rounds" start when both parties become aware of each other.
- The alarm spell made us aware of each other.
- We were essentially in a constant state of 'delay' (or 'ready') from when the alarm went off and onwards.
- Either of those things makes us not flat-footed anymore (delay is still an 'action').
Effectively, we were delaying while they had their own rounds with the benefit of full cover and full concealment (through the door), but we were aware of them (and they were presumably aware of us).
However, since he was concealed, he should have been allowed a stealth check to then pop out and throw all those knives anyway... making Arimar flat-footed to him by virtue of sneakiness (but not because of being flat-footed in general).
We should then all have come out of delay and acted.
Then the swarm should have come in and KO'd the paladin.
At least, that's how I think it should be... and, if we think about it, a bunch of people in a room preparing to face those about to break into it wouldn't be flat-footed for the 'first' round of combat.
That said, I totally abide by your decisions whenever you make them. No sour grapes at all. I only raise this now because 1) I said I would; and 2) This kind of thing happens a lot, and it would be nice to have an idea of how advantaged or disadvantaged we are by the 'wait till they come in' approach. Oh, and I'm also very keen to hear your collective opinions on the topic!
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I've been mulling over that a decent amount since then as well, wondering how I would rule on it if I were the GM.
My thinking aligns with yours Arimar, though I didn't have the mechanics (constant state of delay, full concealment and cover) to put to why it made sense. Essentially though I agree that once the alarm spell went off, we were all "holding our breath" ready to do something once the inevitable (the attack) happened.
The flat-footed, not ready mechanics just seem clunky and non-sensical when you apply it to that kind of situation, in my opinion.
Thanks for the feedback. I always envisioned it as you are waiting for something to happen but are unsure of where and when it is coming.
The build was built around Stealth and having Stealth and attacking from Stealth. Even though you were prepared and expecting an attack this was a character that specializes in attacking with you not noticing him. Sometimes their skill set superscides your preparations or why have these options?
Worked in my mind though I am sorry that it is still bothering you.
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No no! Not bothering me, just had thoughts on it and wanted to add to Arimar's.
Also, I think Arimar is correct in pointing out that there is a subtle difference between us being flat-footed, and him being attacked from a person who was stealthed. We weren't flat footed, but the sneak attack of him coming out of stealth to snipe Arimar was legit. The skill set allowed him to sneak and attack vs flat-footed, even though we weren't technically flat-footed.
I feel like the with how complicated and in-depth the pathfinder rules system is, there is enough information that a person who properly understands it all, and is able to adjudicate on the fly would have to have like a masters degree level of study, practice and experience. Sometimes it is just daunting to think about how intricate and complicated this system is... #RandomThought
Steve's thoughts mirror my own: not bothered at all! It's a general problem that crops up in Pathfinder time and time again. By the way, the mechanics support your strategy - just slightly differently (in my opinion) to the way it played out.
Gotta love how D&D does it. Are you surprised?
Yes. Yes you are.
Is your opponent surprised?
Yes. Yes he is.
What to do? Both act at initiative 2, of course!
NEXT COMBAT
Are you surprised?
Yes. Yes you are.
Is your opponent surprised?
No. No he isn't.
When does your opponent act? Initiative 4 of course! When do you act? Initiative 1 on the next round.
Done.