That's fine, I'm not looking to rival the party's casters with the ioun torch's spellcasting, just improve upon a neat little niche trick to make it a bit more effective and sustainable in the course of long fights (such as the one we just had).
Now, just clarify that last point in your answer, as Garidan's character level increases--raising 'Ruza's effective sorcerer level in the process--will this include any new [light] spells she gets access to (which she's already restricted to).
Or will newly-gained spells of that type get their own per day use, which will then require its own essence(s) to increase?
Currently, she gets 1 [light] spell per day. Her effective sorcerer level is Garidan's character level -2. If you feed her essences, she can get additional casts.
Also, your "No comments" are awfully suspicious there ;p.
Naw, just messing with Niyut. She's worked some things out well, but other things elude her. There are so many things I'd love to tell you all, but that would ruin it. So, I cannot deny or affirm anything out of the gameplay thread. I'll only correct any misunderstandings that the characters would know. :)
I like the mystery and trying to figure stuff out. It's also fun to lean into her cognitive biases.
But they are curios?
The term "Curio" is a out of game concept to describe certain legendary items. I don't plan on using that word, or use wonders or relics, in game by an NPC to suggest what category an item truly falls into.
Niyut knows the bows are infused with magic... so, you know that they are at least curios. Neither you nor Niyut knows if they have been bonded with a Being. So, you don't know if they are Wonders. You could also expand out the logic to Relics. The only thing that is certain is that they are magical.
As for how I will list them on the wiki sight... I'll list it at the lowest level that the characters have concluded. So, I would call them Curios on the site since Niyut and Malthazir know they are imbued with some magic.
Well, in game we know that some items can be broken down by extract essence where as she has read in her book that others require rituals to break down. So, I guess from an in game perspective did it feel like she could potentially break them down with the cantrip or was it more like with the divine axe that the item actively resisted her and felt somehow alive?
I'm asking mostly because I am trying to figure out how best to attack this problem from what she knows now.
I'm also curious how Mogrym will react to Truk's question/Myselar's miracle.
Alrighty Valjoen, I'm pretty sure that this is--for now, any way--my last question in regards to 'Ruza's spell use; what would be required in the way of essences to grant her an ability similar to her current Light Shaper (cast [light] spells as sorcerer, etc.), but applied to [darkness] spells from the sorcerer spell list? Either as a separate ability entirely (with its own per day use?) or as a modification/expansion of her Light Shaper ability.
Well, in game we know that some items can be broken down by extract essence where as she has read in her book that others require rituals to break down. So, I guess from an in game perspective did it feel like she could potentially break them down with the cantrip or was it more like with the divine axe that the item actively resisted her and felt somehow alive?
I'm asking mostly because I am trying to figure out how best to attack this problem from what she knows now.
I guess a sub-set of this query is why from her in game perspective are some items easier or harder to disenchant and what is the logic and mechanism by which she can determine which is which?
Alrighty Valjoen, I'm pretty sure that this is--for now, any way--my last question in regards to 'Ruza's spell use; what would be required in the way of essences to grant her an ability similar to her current Light Shaper (cast [light] spells as sorcerer, etc.), but applied to [darkness] spells from the sorcerer spell list? Either as a separate ability entirely (with its own per day use?) or as a modification/expansion of her Light Shaper ability.
Stay in your lane. :-p Teasing.
Stay in your lane. :-p Teasing.Alrighty Valjoen, I'm pretty sure that this is--for now, any way--my last question in regards to 'Ruza's spell use; what would be required in the way of essences to grant her an ability similar to her current Light Shaper (cast [light] spells as sorcerer, etc.), but applied to [darkness] spells from the sorcerer spell list? Either as a separate ability entirely (with its own per day use?) or as a modification/expansion of her Light Shaper ability.
Lol, I thought Niyut's shtick was more properly [shadow] spells?
Her special benefits are in [Light], [Shadow], and [Darkness] spells with a minor in necromancy spells. But most of her class benefits like Dark Secrets (TM) key to [Shadow] and [Darkness].
But to answer your question, most [Darkness] spells are Evocations. So an Evocation Essence could probably get you what you want. Or, that's where I would start.
What sort of spells did Alezra Sharpwit focus on, since she gets a call out in the item description?
What sort of spells did Alezra Sharpwit focus on, since she gets a call out in the item description?
It hasn't really come up, but I'd spec her as bog-standard adventurer-sorcerer, maybe with emphasis on getting around obstacles and traps creatively rather than brute-forcing past them.
Well, in game we know that some items can be broken down by extract essence where as she has read in her book that others require rituals to break down. So, I guess from an in game perspective did it feel like she could potentially break them down with the cantrip or was it more like with the divine axe that the item actively resisted her and felt somehow alive?
I'm asking mostly because I am trying to figure out how best to attack this problem from what she knows now.
I'll leave this for an in-game discussion. I've been working on a post but it will have to wait until the morning. You'll get some information from your grandmother.
Alrighty Valjoen, I'm pretty sure that this is--for now, any way--my last question in regards to 'Ruza's spell use; what would be required in the way of essences to grant her an ability similar to her current Light Shaper (cast [light] spells as sorcerer, etc.), but applied to [darkness] spells from the sorcerer spell list? Either as a separate ability entirely (with its own per day use?) or as a modification/expansion of her Light Shaper ability.
She is made of the essence of light. I wouldn't think it would be in her nature to cast darkness spells, per se. However, if you can find a spell or SLA that affect natural light, she might be able to do that. Perhaps she could dim torches, put out camp fires or snuff out candles... basically affect other light sources.
She is made of the essence of light. I wouldn't think it would be in her nature to cast darkness spells, per se. However, if you can find a spell or SLA that affect natural light, she might be able to do that. Perhaps she could dim torches, put out camp fires or snuff out candles... basically affect other light sources.Alrighty Valjoen, I'm pretty sure that this is--for now, any way--my last question in regards to 'Ruza's spell use; what would be required in the way of essences to grant her an ability similar to her current Light Shaper (cast [light] spells as sorcerer, etc.), but applied to [darkness] spells from the sorcerer spell list? Either as a separate ability entirely (with its own per day use?) or as a modification/expansion of her Light Shaper ability.
Like she might be able to learn how to do a pyrotechnics effect?
Interestingly, she can cast two spells--Spotlight and Flickering Lights--that manipulate light levels within or around the affected area. The latter of the two is even a [darkness] spell, which it has along with the [light] descriptor.
Like she might be able to learn how to do a pyrotechnics effect?She is made of the essence of light. I wouldn't think it would be in her nature to cast darkness spells, per se. However, if you can find a spell or SLA that affect natural light, she might be able to do that. Perhaps she could dim torches, put out camp fires or snuff out candles... basically affect other light sources.Alrighty Valjoen, I'm pretty sure that this is--for now, any way--my last question in regards to 'Ruza's spell use; what would be required in the way of essences to grant her an ability similar to her current Light Shaper (cast [light] spells as sorcerer, etc.), but applied to [darkness] spells from the sorcerer spell list? Either as a separate ability entirely (with its own per day use?) or as a modification/expansion of her Light Shaper ability.
No, that is manipulating the fire. She can only manipulate light, making it brighter or dimmer. It would function mechanically in game like Darkness, except that it isn't causing darkness to overwhelm a lighted area, but rather just turning off the light... like a dimmer switch. It may be an SLA that I'll have to craft. Perhaps it halves the radius of a light source. Or makes a later that sheds normal light, only create a 20' raidus of dim light. Something like that.
Interestingly, she can cast two spells--Spotlight and Flickering Lights--that manipulate light levels within or around the affected area. The latter of the two is even a [darkness] spell, which it has along with the [light] descriptor.
Ah... Flickering Lights is very much inline with what I was thinking.
Well, it's alright. As I said, this spellcasting is more a niche thing than meant to be any sort of powerful. Still going to have fun what I can do with it, and there's still a good number of neat metamagic feats I can slap on for useful tricks.
Sweet freakin' 50 posts. Alright.
@Niyut
- I'd be alright with using a SM2 spell to attempt to find the magical bridge.
- I think you may be right on spellcraft, sheet is adjusted.
- For the bows, Malz adds 25 to spellcraft. If Niyut assists him and he takes 10 we're looking at a 37. Torenz could also assist and make that a 39. Hopefully that's high enough. With a guidance spell we could bump it to 40.
@GM
Does identify help with essence extraction? We could turn that 39/40 into a 49/50 by spending 1st level spell slots if so. If not than I suppose we roll with the dice.
@Essences
Saving everything. I like getting the big abilities with lots of essences.
@Malthazir: With 2 Ethereal Essences you could bump up your spell craft by another +5. So we could have take 10 +30 + 2 (Aid Niyut) + 2 (Aid Torenz) + 1 Guidance: 45. If that doesn't get us what we needed then even you rolling a nat 20 currently wouldn't get us there, which it seems would be possible given Niyut's sense that she should expend her full strength.
@Mal Part 2: Inspiration! We could use Torenz's Augury to see if investing in the further +5 spell craft would get us what we want before you expend the essences. Or if you are feeling extra spicy he could get us a yes/no off commune.
Torenz will have no problem being told he has to help helping with this question.
Torenz can cast augury at a CL of 6, giving a 76% chance of success (rolled in secret by the GM). He will ask something akin to "Will imbuing Malthazir with essences to increase his extracting powers be good for the immediate future?" (since augury only goes out 30 minutes). Worst case scenario we get a 'nothing' answer from a failure or a 'mixed' answer which means it won't be successful (but imbuing Malz shouldn't be negative so it shouldn't probably give a negative outcome).
@GM
Does identify help with essence extraction? We could turn that 39/40 into a 49/50 by spending 1st level spell slots if so. If not than I suppose we roll with the dice.
No, it wouldn't help with extraction. It would, of course, help with learning more about the bows.
@Essences
Saving everything. I like getting the big abilities with lots of essences.
Sounds good.
Understood. I don't have identify prepared but it is in my spellbook, so tomorrow we can investigate them more closely.
I would phrase it as:
Augury: "Will increasing Malthazir's spell craft, by imbuing, be good for the purpose of extracting essences from these bows if he proceeds with deliberate care and aid?"
Just asking if it would be generically good for extracting would always return true. Because then any increase is good. We want to know if it would be good in relation to the bows.
or
Commune: If Malthazir imbues himself with additional spell craft, will he be able to carefully extract essences from the bows with our aid?
That would hit all of our moving parts: taking ten, imbuing, and aid another.
I have Identify on my list too.
Sure, if it would make you feel better. I usually don't nickel and dime it too much because it's not a wish spell or a monkey's paw, I trust the GM to get the meaning.
I see it as less nickel and diming and more as precise inputs lead to precise outputs. Divinations (unlike Wishes) don't have some psuedo-intellect behind them. It's sort of like machine learning. The parameters you set determine the answers you get. But, perhaps I'm overthinking it.
From my time as a minionmancer with over 40 undead at my disposal at any one time, I often find that a five minute conversation with the GM is worth several days of pouring over details with a machine-learning approach. Because despite my programming education, most GMs aren't interested in pouring through what amounts to lines of code. And if they want to find a fault for a story reason, the fault will be found, no matter how careful you are. I've learned that working with the rule of cool is much better than attempting to fight it :P
Certainly being on the same page is always a plus.
Though philosophically, I find the notion that cool/fun to be opposed to consistency of world building and logic to be noxious. From my perspective, worlds that hang together -- moved by their own principles -- are far more fun (and cool!) than arbitrary whim. Unless, of course, the point of the system is arbitrary whim: I wouldn't, for example, ask of first principles of Dionysus or look for natural laws in the Maelstorm.
At the end of the day, it comes down to knowing your audience, right? If you are trying to engage me one wouldn't handwave ontology or epistemology because that's my jam. No more than not letting Feral take a break from the epic stuff to have man-v-nature encounters or feats of strength would engage him. Or not appreciating the rich inner life -- though often gruff exteriors -- that Dalton brings to his characters. There are patterns that we can see develop over several years of all playing together. :-)
Likewise, Valjoen, has shown great attention to world building and detail. (As a lawyer, he is no doubt intimately familiar with hypotheticals and if/thens.) Look at the wiki that he has made for us! From what I can tell, he likes us getting into the weeds. Otherwise, what's the point of all the work of creating so much?
Though as I'm sitting here and writing all this, I see that I'm not trying to meet you where you are at. You hate being second guessed. I know this. I apologize. I'll try to keep my advice and suggestions for your character to a minimum from now on.
Though as I'm sitting here and writing all this, I see that I'm not trying to meet you where you are at. You hate being second guessed. I know this. I apologize. I'll try to keep my advice and suggestions for your character to a minimum from now on.
You have gross misunderstandings about me and I don't think you understand what I'm trying to convey. I'm not particularly interested in continuing this conversation because I doubt it would be productive, and I'd rather not clutter up the discussion thread with it anyways.
Torenz will have no problem
being told he has to helphelping with this question.Torenz can cast augury at a CL of 6, giving a 76% chance of success (rolled in secret by the GM). He will ask something akin to "Will imbuing Malthazir with essences to increase his extracting powers be good for the immediate future?" (since augury only goes out 30 minutes). Worst case scenario we get a 'nothing' answer from a failure or a 'mixed' answer which means it won't be successful (but imbuing Malz shouldn't be negative so it shouldn't probably give a negative outcome).
I'm fairly precise or try to be precise in my language. I won't require absolute precision in your question, but I prefer to answer what you're asking as oppose to what I think your asking or think what you should ask.
I think what the two of you are trying to discover with the augury is whether your inability to extract essences from the bows due to your current spellcraft modifier, and, therefore, if you increase the modifier, you will be better able to attempt an extraction. Or, in the alternative, your failure is due to the fact that the bows are not Curios and therefore, not able to be affected by Extract Essence.
As long as you don't completely fumble the language of the augury, I won't screw you and will reveal information as I'm able.
Excellent, thank you GM.
Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to just break out the commune. We can ask a much more specific question and potentially get other answers as well. Can anybody think of some pressing questions? Perhaps "Will the defenders die if they stay here" or "Will their sacrifice help anything".
It might be wise to determine through a spell craft check whether not commune answers are colored by the agency answering them. Your imp is a devil, though a long chain of command he is in some ways a slave of the god behind the gnolls: Gaeruhn. The evil god might have a vested interest in how and where the enemies of his slaves resist him. Likewise, I wouldn't mention to Foramdar that your imp communed with powerful devils in service of the Flesh Eater and has advice for him. The intel may be good, but the source is suspect.
If commune answers aren't affected by the agency who answers, then I think getting such answers and disguising the source is a good idea.
Since the cost is prohibitive, I'll just get lesser extend for now. Truk will bank the other EE until I can get empower later.
It might be wise to determine through a spell craft check whether not commune answers are colored by the agency answering them. Your imp is a devil, though a long chain of command he is in some ways a slave of the god behind the gnolls: Gaeruhn. The evil god might have a vested interest in how and where the enemies of his slaves resist him. Likewise, I wouldn't mention to Foramdar that your imp communed with powerful devils in service of the Flesh Eater and has advice for him. The intel may be good, but the source is suspect.
If commune answers aren't affected by the agency who answers, then I think getting such answers and disguising the source is a good idea.
The imp would be communing with Gaeruhn who created the Plane of Blood where all devils reside. While the answer will be truthful and correct, consider the source. Also, the answer will come to the Imp, who will in turn tell Malthazir, so consider the dynamics of that relationship.
1 Skill Point in to Linguistics to get Giant. 7 Skill points into Knowledge: Planes.
Are you trying to learn "Giant" as in the language of the mortal giants upon the world? Or the language of the Ice Giants that you encountered coming from the portal to the Plane of Water?
Torenz will be painfully compelled to happily tell the truth to Malthazir!
*strained smile*
Huh. . . . After absorbing the Life Essence of the Cliff Giant, her take 10 would be 33. However, I'm guessing she would need more than that. What's the caster level on these bows? "You can extract any essences from a magical item (non-consumable) by beating a Spellcraft check that is equal to 15 + CL" The caster level would need to be 19-20 if they are curios. Are they wonders?
I think I've answered this as far as I'm willing in this forum. Niyut wouldn't know the CL of the creator. I do. If the bows are curios and Extract Essence would work, clearly the CL is higher than 20. Although, as we discussed, there are other possible explanations that you don't know to be true or not.
Are you trying to learn "Giant" as in the language of the mortal giants upon the world? Or the language of the Ice Giants that you encountered coming from the portal to the Plane of Water?1 Skill Point in to Linguistics to get Giant. 7 Skill points into Knowledge: Planes.
Interesting that there's a difference between them.
As to the bows? I'm putting my money on there being some dirty, dirty soul magic involved in their creation, real bad juju. That's what is causing Niyut's efforts to drww out the essences to fail, because it's not the usual straight magic she's trying to work with.
Does it ruin that bow that she tried to extract?
It didn’t ruin the physical bow as far as you can tell, but the magic has faded from the bow. No esseences could be harvested from it now.
By the way, loving all the dialogue in the gameplay forum. I’m working on a response to several things and hope to have it up by this afternoon.
@Niyut: Just pointing this out, but the party does have someone in it with more than passing familiarity with weapons. While that doesn't cover bows specifically, I think there's enough of an overlap that, with Valjoen's okay, Garidan could see if the physical construction of the bows deviats from the norm.
And Valjoen just said that one of those bows won't be a loss if someone were to disassemble for a close examination.
Are you trying to learn "Giant" as in the language of the mortal giants upon the world? Or the language of the Ice Giants that you encountered coming from the portal to the Plane of Water?1 Skill Point in to Linguistics to get Giant. 7 Skill points into Knowledge: Planes.
The former. Honestly, I didn't think the last one would be an option until I already knew Aquan.
The imp would be communing with Gaeruhn who created the Plane of Blood where all devils reside. While the answer will be truthful and correct, consider the source. Also, the answer will come to the Imp, who will in turn tell Malthazir, so consider the dynamics of that relationship.It might be wise to determine through a spell craft check whether not commune answers are colored by the agency answering them. Your imp is a devil, though a long chain of command he is in some ways a slave of the god behind the gnolls: Gaeruhn. The evil god might have a vested interest in how and where the enemies of his slaves resist him. Likewise, I wouldn't mention to Foramdar that your imp communed with powerful devils in service of the Flesh Eater and has advice for him. The intel may be good, but the source is suspect.
If commune answers aren't affected by the agency who answers, then I think getting such answers and disguising the source is a good idea.
Yes, that's what I thought. If we can, I think we should stick to specific and limited questions and not use communing with Gaeruhn for guiding principles of action. I know how easy it is to deceive, but never tell a lie.
Are you trying to learn "Giant" as in the language of the mortal giants upon the world? Or the language of the Ice Giants that you encountered coming from the portal to the Plane of Water?1 Skill Point in to Linguistics to get Giant. 7 Skill points into Knowledge: Planes.
Interesting that there's a difference between them.
As to the bows? I'm putting my money on there being some dirty, dirty soul magic involved in their creation, real bad juju. That's what is causing Niyut's efforts to drww out the essences to fail, because it's not the usual straight magic she's trying to work with.
Yep. Ice Giant is a mixture of Aquan and Giant. Which Niyut figured out in the ruined tower by listening to a powerful giantess chant a wormhole stable for god knows how long.
My guess is sacrificial magic of the old school. Gaeruhn is hip to that and has a long history of it.
@Niyut: Just pointing this out, but the party does have someone in it with more than passing familiarity with weapons. While that doesn't cover bows specifically, I think there's enough of an overlap that, with Valjoen's okay, Garidan could see if the physical construction of the bows deviats from the norm.
And Valjoen just said that one of those bows won't be a loss if someone were to disassemble for a close examination.
Of course, it will be a team effort. You know how serious it is that she would want to collaborate with Mal on it given how competitive she is about their respective crafts. And it's not like she is trying to keep it from you. At the moment she is trying to hide the bows in her extradimensional sleeve to prevent them from being burned. I guess Mal didn't pick up on that detail, given his imp's actions, but I doubt the archers will be supportive of his imp trying to paw at them. And why Niyut is creating illusions that will be burned in their stead.
Once we are away from the crazed horse lords we can examine it to our hearts' content using what methodologies we know.
Yes, that's what I thought. If we can, I think we should stick to specific and limited questions and not use communing with Gaeruhn for guiding principles of action. I know how easy it is to deceive, but never tell a lie.
I think that is a wise course of action.
With that in mind, I recant my earlier statement about not being nitpicky about the details of divination spells from Torenz. We are dealing with devils, let us act accordingly.
Once the scene moves on to a more stable position in gameplay I will have Torenz cast the augury spell.