On the subject of secondary benefits for essences, I'm of two minds. On one hand, I generally prefer having less things to remember. On the other hand I don't want to feel like I'm influencing secondary effect progression. Part of the magic of this system is the lottery feeling that comes with picking up new essences.
I'd almost prefer secondaries be some kind of randomized table.
On one hand, I generally prefer having less things to remember. On the other hand I don't want to feel like I'm influencing secondary effect progression.
Even though, Feral is a friend, and Truk is my brother, it's like I don't even know him. :-p
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving.
After a 12 hour drive Sunday, only to make it about 2/3 way from Denver to KC due to the blizzard, I had another 5 hour drive yesterday. But, I'm back in the swing of things now.
I'm going to try to finish up essences this week. So, I'll posting a bit in here.
I'm also going to make a few posts in the gameplay thread to keep that going as well.
That sounds pretty epic. I'm glad you survived. Also, looking forward to that sweet, sweet gameplay action.
Ooph, glad you made it back safe!
@ Truk'tosh - Your essences are imbued.
..Unassigned
……(EE16/17:Cliff Giant/Cliff Giant) - Lesser Extended Spell
……(EE18:Equine Idol) - All Saves Resistance Bonus +1; (Secondary) Bone Prison, Improved: The bone prison, in addition to its normal 15 hp, gains 2 hp per character level.
Two essences get full Extended Spell because its base increase is +1.
Yea, it was a typo on my notes page. I believe its correction the wiki.
I'm not currently imbuing anything. I have long term plans for my outstanding essences.
@Niyut - Imbuing your LE and saving the rest.
..Unassigned
……(EE9:Storm Hag) - Unassigned
……(EE10:Storm Hag) - Unassigned
……(EE13:Cliff Giant) - Unassigned
……(Divination1:Gnoll Scout) - Unassigned
……(Enchantment1:Cliff Giant) - Unassigned
……(Transmutation1:Equine Idol) - Unassigned
..Self
……(LE5:Cliff Giant) - Charisma +1 (Secondary Effect) Cunning feat.
@Garidan, Gruskorb & Malthazir - Comments on Essences from page 59?
I'm not currently imbuing anything. I have long term plans for my outstanding essences.@Niyut - Imbuing your LE and saving the rest.
..Unassigned
……(EE9:Storm Hag) - Unassigned
……(EE10:Storm Hag) - Unassigned
……(EE13:Cliff Giant) - Unassigned
……(Divination1:Gnoll Scout) - Unassigned
……(Enchantment1:Cliff Giant) - Unassigned
……(Transmutation1:Equine Idol) - Unassigned
..Self
……(LE5:Cliff Giant) - Charisma +1 (Secondary Effect) Cunning feat.
That sounds right. The only thing she needs is the upgrades to her LE secondaries, and no rush on that.
Speaking of which:
"Armor of the Spirits: Once per day as an immediate action, you can call upon the wandering spirits of the world to protect you. You gain DR5/magic for 2 round per character level. (LE2: Gnoll Commander)"
Would it be possible for the improvement be increased DR or changing the type to cold iron? Cold Iron feels more spirity.
Comment on what in particular? For spending essences, Malz is saving them all for now.
Comment on what in particular? For spending essences, Malz is saving them all for now.
Sounds good.
Garidan, you could head off to the Temple of the Tempest Eternal now that we have a place to spend the night. We must seize our down time wherever possible! :-)
Quite often I feel like my opinion bounces around on this issue, but I recognize it is a complex problem.
The main goal I had when I decided to do the "essence" concept was to make crafting of magic items more dynamic. Character's would have fewer magic items but with greater customization. I'm tired of everyone having a cloak of resistance, ring of protection, blah, blah, blah. I wanted to give the players the ability to get bonuses & effects they wanted, but in unique items that they cherished. Additionally, I want them to have flexibility in both combat and role-playing encounters.
Most of the rules we've developed and use have helped accomplish that end. However, two rules have had additional impacts on the campaign. One created a power surge in the characters that is unbalancing against monsters and npc’s. The second furthered the gap between casters and martials.
1. Secondary Effects... Unarguably, they are compounding the bonuses and effects. It is making it harder to build challenging encounters. Your characters have become overpowered in some ways, which means I have to put tougher and/or more monsters up against you to make it a challenge to kill them. But, the risk of character death goes up. So, I've erred the last couple of battles on the side of caution which has, in my opinion, led to easier encounters. Once the tide turned in the recent battle, it ended rather quickly. I do worry about what it will look like once the characters get to the upper teens... or 20!
2. Wands... I should start with the statement that I personally don't enjoy the vancian magic systems as much as I enjoy other systems. I infrequently play wizards in Pathfinder, and when I do, they go scroll crazy. I don't like having a spell in my spellbook that I can't access when I really need it. So, I thought let's give them the ability to add spells to the "wands" but have them behave more like staves. We came up with a progression of essences to get higher level spells. But... Truk is correct in that it does vastly expand caster's abilities beyond martial characters, who are arguably weaker to begin with.
I know we tried to playtest the Spheres systems, and I've had fun with that campaign, but we only had a limited test on it. And honestly, I find the magic side to be a bit monotone... and the martial side not that impressive. I created over twenty characters and was able to make some very powerful, but one dimensional, casters with only 4-6 levels.
Personally, I'm hopeful that Pathfinder 2ed will better address the disparity between casters and martial characters. Also, from my readings, the shifting skills to proficiency levels rather than skill ranks, this will certainly affect many of the secondary effects.
NIyut, on the other hand, is correct in that spell trigger methods of Pathfinder would suggest that she should be able to add on upper level spells from classes she's accessed, and that there is opportunity costs for using essences to gain these spells.
My home game is playing essences differently as I'm trying to find the right balance. I'd like to get to one set of rules for future campaigns that I'm thinking about running. I won't change the rules for any current campaign unless everyone agrees. And any effects to items that have been granted will stay unless the player asks them to be adjusted. But I’m going to continually tweak some of the rules on wiki.
Sorry that I'm rambling, but I do appreciate and want as much input I can get from all of you. Further, I want to keep all of you happy, excited and engaged with the campaign.
I'm going to keep working on the rules for the world over the next couple of months. You may note that I'll separate out any campaign specific rules.
Let's keep the discussion going on rules. I value everyone's opinion and appreciate the time & energy all of you have put into the campaign.
Let's start with discussion on Secondary Effects. What is everyone's opinion? Fun & useful? Inconsistent? Better to have them upgrade older secondary effects? Too overpowering? Should only be on certain types of essences? Other thoughts?
Happy Thanksgiving!
Sorry, I somehow missed this post and everything after it!
To start with, I'm quite pleased overall with the system you've got in place for magic items. I enjoy the flavor provided by the use of essences, and their thematic secondary benefits often add a nice touch. My only complaint, and it's one specific to Garidan's build, is that I hadn't recognized or quite understood the full implications of the essence system as it relates to Use Magic Device. I'm quite attached to the skill and its utility, but there's damned all opportunities to actually use it here. Heck, I had to go ahead and clumsily homebrew my own magic item ability, albeit with a lot of cribbing from an existing ability, get make use of the skill and I've only found one other possible use besides that (the Ampoules of False Blood). Scrolls aren't around in profusion here, and any restricted item that Garidan could feasibly make use of would be eyed hungrily, quite literally so, by Niyut for the essences it holds. And honestly, draining the essences would probably be a better return than Garidan fumbling around until he stumbles into triggering the item.
Now to the specific issue you've raised, that of secondary essence benefits. As I said, I like these myself. Some of them do feel overpowered, though it doesn't actually become apparent until they've been built up some, but in general they feel like they're approximately equal to a trait in power (initially, at least). Life essence secondaries are the big ones for feeling overpowered though; going by Garidan's list, as those are the ones I'm most familiar with, flaming riposte is one example I can point to. +2d6 is pretty good as it stands, and more than that isn't something I really want.
Others, however, like Studied Target and Favored Enemy, feel just right. The bonus granted by the ability itself is locked to the character level, and essence increases there can only be to additonal daily uses, or maybe what type of action is required to activate it.
Perhaps, as an alternative to ludicrously stacking new secondary benefits, in addition tothe choice of improving a prior benefit, you could offer a choice of a flat increase to hp? Or, for those of us with such things, additional panache or combat stamina. Even a single extra hit point is a gift, and panache (and soon enough, stamina) are gold to Garidan. Those would be pretty good options for lesser essences.
For life essences secondaries, maybe offer the possibility of improving class features in some way, tailoring the secondary further to the character. Again with Garidan as an example, a bonus to the saves granted by Charmed Life, an increase to the die rolled for Derring-Do, or move a bit further with Dodging Panache, and so forth? Nothing that affects panache cost or action type, though, because that would be break things.
Of course, one possible fix to the issue of adding secondaries is perhaps rolling the ol' percentile to see if there's one to be added to begin with.
And don't forget that what characters can do, or benefit from, applies to NPCs as well. If something has essences to cough up, why can't they get a slight buff from them before Niyut vacuums them up for us?
Thanks for the input, Garidan! Lots of good things to think about.
For the time being, I'm going to provide some small upgrades to existing secondary benefits for non-life essences. Life essences will continue to have secondary benefits. In the future, I'm thinking that I'm going to scale them based on level rather than stacking of life essences. It will make record keeping easier and make them easier to balance.
we have a few issues with the continuity and timing of some actions... so, I'm going throw out an order. Let me know if you do something different.
After the talk with Rhykal...
1. Malthazir, Niyut and Truk head to bath & get some rest.
2. Gruskorb follows Waltur to the stables.
3. Gruskorb (and maybe Garidan) scout area for any abandoned areas open to scavenging.
4. Gruskorb strikes on his own to deal with Lockjaw.
5. Garidan heads to the Temple.
@Garidan & All - Sorry, I don't have a good map of the upper city of Earthenwork as it would help explain locations. The upper city is to the north of the lower city. The furtherest northern section is the wall at which you just had the battle. The river cuts the upper city in half. On the west side is larger estates, military & government buildings, several temples and the "palace". The palace is walled off. Inside those walls is the residence/castle of the king and the Temple of the Tempest Eternal. On the furthest southern edge of the upper city is the Tower of Conjurer. The palace is halfway-ish between the northern gate and the Tower. The massive crowds you passed are partial outside the palace walls and partially inside. Looks like there are lines of people waiting for entry into the Temple, in which the Circle of the Whispering Wind is located.
6. Rykhal was supposed to come back and talk to Niyut. I assume this would be post-blood magic but before bed?
Looks good to me. Now that I've spent some hard time auditing my character sheet and understand my build a lot better I will be much more efficient with my resources.
Correct, Niyut.
Added a draft map of the upper city. You should see the Tower near the bottom. The Temple is to the right when entering the palace area. The Castle is straight ahead. Military HQ is left. Northern gate should be recognizable.
...Although, I think I need to widen the river. LOL. But you get the picture.
I would have done #5 before #3 to give Gruskorb more time to post (and had actually started that with my post) but then he went and posted after Garidan buggered off to the temple, because Gruskorb ;p.
So now I need to find time for a scrounging post in response to his, lol.
Also, #7 Garidan makes journal entries.
I agree about width of river, but let's say it's massively not to scale. Otherwise, I think it's a cool map. Though did the Tower of Conjuration change from it's original description?
"A subterranean river supplies the water for the city. A clockwork tower built into the divide between the Lower City and the next level is the seat of the Hazard of Conjuration."
I thought the tower bisected the levels of the city. But this version of the tower is much more aesthetically pretty.
I am rather busy the next couple days, please GMPC as needed.
Garidan? Come back to us. :-p
F~@#ing bastard site, it didn't notify me of any new game posts -_-, I thought I was waiting on Valjoen. Apologies for the delay!
I hope Gruskorb is alright. He mentioned he had been feeling unwell and a bit overwhelmed.
Garidan, if you join the Tempest Eternal, I have some multilevel-marketing opportunities that might be a good fit for you. ;-)
Rofl, I happen to be to an avid reader of r/AntiMLM, so I'll pass. But it is an awfully good pitch, you must admit :D.
Yeah, I liked it. Certainly, taking his advice won't cost you anything but skeptical looks from Niyut -- she has some minor issues with authority -- and may gain you the regard of your patron.
Also, if you want more info on human ancestries, look up the histories and time lines on the wiki. Much of the info is scattered, and some of it is . . . quite dark, but all of it is interesting and worth the time spent.
LOL.
The Tempest Eternal is Calledrym taken to the extreme. But it holds that he isn't about being selfless or selfish. He cares little for those that care for others or take advantage of them. He only craves power, rules with order and holds himself noble.
While Mylesar will reward those that are fearless in battle, Calledrym will reward the victorious as long as they glorify him... so that he gains power within the framework of the cosmos. Remember, the gods gain power from more people praying to them... or from people fearing them.
As I recall, this campaign has its distant roots in science, being a ringworld built by people who then assumed more elevated positions. Calledrym must have been an officious prick in his mortal life :D.
That was before the name changes (after the sacred font) we now are under a new cosmology and no ring world.
Though I agree that Calleydrm seems like a jerk. However, if you come back to use under a geas or mark of justice, I won't be sympathetic since you lipped off to a priest of your god after he told you about the importance of rule and submission to your betters. :-p
I bet this will escalate. hahaha
Garidan, I recommend that you found a kingdom. That would totally count as sovereign power. Or take the Leadership feat. :-)
Lol, I don't think that there's much of a market for new realms anymore, what with the whole cataclysm thing, and what do I really need with minions and lackeys (when I have such an effective party already ;p)?
To demonstrate your ability organize and rule as a viceroy of the king of the gods, obvs. ;-)
Hmmm, nah. Ruling just isn't where it's at these days. Besides, I do an excellent job of organizing our supplies, and that's more tangible power than anything else that isn't a spell or weapon, because I have access to precious food!
Valjoen, a couple of questions regarding the interior arrangements of a secure shelter spell's building. Is it possible to alter and/or improve upon the stock furnishings in a lasting way? Also, if I leave something non-alive in building when the spell's duration ends, what happens to it; does it stay there until the building is remade, does it get shuffled off to some random planar garbage pile, or just deleted entirely?
I apologize for the silence, life has been rather hectic lately.
Could somebody help me with the question about Basgeil? Perhaps my wiki-fuu is weak, but I can find information about the area but not if it was present before or after the cataclysm.
The text description on the wiki is all pre-Storm. To the best of my knowledge, all we know of it post-Storm comes from Arrington's (slightly inaccurate map) where it is now located in the far southwest (a moderate change in position from being to the southeast of the Shadow Mountains pre-Storm).
Gotcha, thanks Niyut. That's what I remembered but I didn't want to tell this guy his hometown was destroyed only later to go "Oh my bad actually it's fine" :P
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With additional ethereal essences, I'd allow for some upgraded furnishings. The same goes for keeping stuff permanently inside (which would be several essences as that pretty much negates a lot of the burdens of your travels). Otherwise, I'd say the items are just lost in an inter dimensional space.
@Malz - LOL.
Garidan, Soul Peddler, taking all reasonable offers. :-p
Garidan, Soul Peddler, taking all reasonable offers. :-p
Why should Niyut be the only one of us who gets slips into the warm, fuzzy embrace of essence-based crazy :D? She consumes them, Garidan hustles and deals them.
Which reminds me, I need to consider doing another one of his freaky essence dreams.
Garidan, Soul Peddler, taking all reasonable offers. :-pWhy should Niyut be the only one of us who gets slips into the warm, fuzzy embrace of essence-based crazy :D? She consumes them, Garidan hustles and deals them.
Which reminds me, I need to consider doing another one of his freaky essence dreams.
Well, honestly, we had just come from the tower of necromancy and I had failed to even have the opportunity of one of those essences drop for you guys. In this case, however, you’re wanting a very specific one. I’m at least giving you an opportunity for one and more incentive to head to the first lands with the twins!
Oh, I was heading there with them anyway, as this is pretty clearly the next part of the campaign. But it's nice that Garidan won't just be meatshielding during their time there, but actually has a bit of sidequest for himself to engage in. Might even be an opportunity to flesh out more backstory for his orc mom's origin.
It's been some time, but I recall that she wasn't much interested in doing what her people had planned for her skills and abilities, and she further had a level of fascination with the buried past--in part for the power to be found and in part for reasons of actual academic interest--that they strongly disapproved of, so she pretty much flipped them off and struck out on her own. But her subsequent deeds and doings might have made it back to the ears of those she left, who maybe had reason to listen for such things.
The First Lands weren't part of my original storyline. You guys are in unchartered territory, but it all works with the over-arching story. Events around the world will continue on their path regardless of where or what you do. I'm following the characters now. :)
This might also be an opportunity for Garidan to get hands on that Ampoule of False Blood I've been interested in. The Nightblood(?) seem the logical candidates to have and/or dabble with such items and their uses. I imagine all sorts of fun could be had with Garidan being lured by the prospect of power, framed as a means to help the party if he can "master" it :D.
I like the cut of Créatus' jib. He strikes me as a clever fellow.
It was a skillful bit of manipulation, wasn't it? Send Garidan out to get rid of a problem, do it in Calledrym's name no less, and don't even have to pay for it.
Garidan's going to eventually find Calledrym's scant blessings to be cold comfort, I suspect, and he'll probably start looking for something better not long after.