Nessa has a bedroll and pack in her "Fighter's Kit" that Herolab bundles for you when equipment shopping.
Yeah, well, considering the "bard's kit" weighs 33.5 lbs by itself, exclusive of weapons and armor, and she hits medium encumbrance at 38 lbs, that's less helpful than one might imagine. :P
I would be utterly thrilled to get mage armor on the bard spell list; it would free up at least 15 lbs of weight until one could afford bracers.
I have a crossbow, right? ;-)
And ten whole bolts. ;D
Ten bolts? Those demon-lords dont stand a chance.
I think it's actually possible by RAW for Theodric to create his own traveling spellbook, although it would definitely be difficult -- dare I say mythic?
A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If he already has a particular spell prepared, he can write it directly into a new book at the same cost required to write a spell into a spellbook. The process wipes the prepared spell from his mind, just as casting it would. If he does not have the spell prepared, he can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.
Any spells he doesn't cast in his first 24 hours he can write into a temporary spellbook at a cost of 10 gp per first level spell. If he doesn't use his Arcane Bond ability for the day, he can use it to prepare another spell and write it into his temporary spellbook.
Technically, a spellbook requires "special parchments and inks," but since you don't actually "buy" parchments and inks, just spend the gold at the time you copy the spell, he ought to be able to spend the gold and say a wizard carries the right kind of inks with him in weight-negligible vials. We ought to be able to lend him the money to do so, if necessary; it's not like there's anywhere to shop down here. The hard part would be conserving spells over a 24-hour period.
Alternatively, we have a blind Riftwarden with a spellbook he's not using. He'd have to make the Spellcraft check to read the spells since it's not his, but maybe he could use Aravashnial's book to prepare spells until we get topside?
Theodric - I'm not that cruel... if you wanted to retcon your spellbook back into your arms and possession, I'd be perfectly willing to allow that.
If you recommend it, I will. I could see how it could be pretty cool from a story standpoint to try to reclaim the book, conserve my spells even more, etc, but I also don't want to be a useless drain/liability on the party if we're going to be trapped down here for 2 weeks, you know?
I get a feeling we'll be down here for a while.
Without spoiling anything - you'll be underground for a couple of character levels; but even after your return above you'll be a long distance and significant side-trek from your existing spellbook.
Not all of it. She rolled 6 on her d6, and Harrol only channeled for 5.
While it sounds like an insane amount of fun to rebuild a spellbook from scratch, dungeons can be rough enough for low-level casters when they can renew their spells normally. There are usually more encounters packed into shorter periods of time than one generally meets overland, so they tend to run out of spells before the adventuring day is over in the best of conditions. You'd be playing with the difficulty turned up to 11.
Still, painstakingly recreating your spellbook in the field with primitive materials: How cool would that be? :)
Btw...
Initiative Tracker (Round 1): Theodric, Aarol, Rearguard (NPCs), Harrol, Eudocia, Roaches, Nessa, Gregori
How unprepared is this party when the bulk of us react more slowly than a blind guy, a lady with a broken leg, and an overweight nobleman? ;P
While it sounds like an insane amount of fun to rebuild a spellbook from scratch, dungeons can be rough enough for low-level casters when they can renew their spells normally. There are usually more encounters packed into shorter periods of time than one generally meets overland, so they tend to run out of spells before the adventuring day is over in the best of conditions. You'd be playing with the difficulty turned up to 11.
Still, painstakingly recreating your spellbook in the field with primitive materials: How cool would that be? :)
I know, that's what I'm thinking, too. From a story perspective it seems really fun. What do you think, VoV? Could it be done without me irrevocably ruining the party's survival chances?
1d20 + 8
Iirc, I believe vermin fall into (dungeoneering), which is Docia's schtick when her init comes up, not to mention a waste of a decent roll. (If giant cockroaches are a common monster, it could still work, though, as the DC would be under 10!)
The dice certainly don't seem to want us to live to become Mythic, judging by the attack rolls thus far. Time for the blinded and hobbled Rearguard to swoop into action and save the day!
When did you cast your spell, Harrol? When we saw the spider? Because it's a standard to cast and another standard to throw a stone, once you have the pebbles in hand.
I'm stuck with no options but move action:draw weapon and move action:move; stupid BAB +0. :P
I cast my spell before we set out from where we landed. The stones should last me half an hour, and I think I have a 50% chance of being able to retrieve them, like any other ammunition.
Well, okay. So apparently we can roll well in the DISCUSSION thread :p
Behold our mighty mythic adventurers... see them gloriously struggle to exterminate ROUSes!
Twigs - corner case, but I'll allow for attempting to recover the pebbles... but you'll obviously be grabbing them after the combat's done.
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Attack Rolls: 3, 2, 6, 5, 4, 5, 4
Knowledge Rolls: 20, 15, 13, 18,
You guys would be much more effective in combat if you resolved to be less knowledgeable :P
I am very knowledgible about missing.
The problem is that those who aren't relying on another's choices are stepping on the choices of others, particularly those who might be looking to support them.
Scenario 1: Theodric plans to cast grease on his init, but someone who doesn't act until after him posts that they step into melee and attack, scoring a hit. Theodric most likely changes his action so as not to force the other player to make a Reflex save for moving in the area.
Scenario 2: Eudocia intends to move into a flanking position for another PC on her init. Before I finish my post, the other player pre-posts his attack and either clearly hits or clearly misses without my contribution. I either go ahead with my intention of performing an action I already know is a complete waste of time, or I shamelessly metagame to do something other than I was going to do.
And that's not even getting into some of the buffs people can cast to give other PCs a bonus to something or other. When actions are pre-posted, everyone knows who should retroactively be given the bonuses based on the results of their rolls ("I can give someone a +2 before they make all the rolls they've already made. Well, that guy is going to roll a 1 so it won't help him, and that guy rolled a natural 19 so he doesn't need it; I'll give it to the guy who rolled a 13 and maybe it will put him over the top.").
I've envisioned Eudocia as a mobility build based on flanking and positioning, using Delays and Readies to choreograph the battlefield. She's not going to be doing a lot of damage herself but hopefully helping others to do so. As an example, I have a gnome rogue/cleric in another game who does 1d3-1 of damage at 5th level ... but she used grace to get on the other side of a line of spriggans and provide flanks for 3 allies from one square. If everyone's already posted their attack rolls so I know who will or won't hit if I provide a flank, I can't avoid letting metagame knowledge influence my choice of what to do with my turn. (That PC also has Bit of Luck, which is also thrown off by people posting out of order.)
In my rogue/cleric game, we agreed that, if we were posting readied actions or posting out of order, we'd put them behind a spoiler tag so they wouldn't influence other players and the DM could resolve them at the appopriate time. That way, I can just not read anyone's spoilers until after I post my action.
My general impulse is to treat the combat as a big amorphous blob that is roughly consistent, but at times gets a bit stretched here and there without breaking entirely. That is to handwave some of the metagaming that is hard to avoid happening without needing to enforce strict post order initiative.
It's worth highlighting that the primary reason for this is to enable combat encounter resolution to not slow down the post rate and progression of the campaign too much.
As a DM I'm not too concerned with you guys sequencing your attacks or aids to make best use of actions... as it's kind of what I get to do anyway as I group the bad guys onto the same initiative. I don't think it's going to fundamentally break the combat progression or allow for any explicit exploitation of the rules.
At the end of the day there's going to be some situations where re-direction of actions will need to take place. Eg. Since Theodric is casting grease does Nessa want to re-think the charge?
For you Joana it isn't much of a concern, as I know that you're online a few times a day and can pick and choose when to throw down an action without holding up the thread much anyway.
But for me (especially weekends) I might only be online with enough time for a decent post once in the day. If everyone has actions stated then most of the time I can do that update - but if half the players are explicitly waiting on the results of other actions then I can only do a partial update, and the round of combat stretches across another day.
What are other peoples thoughts? - If you don't mind spoilers for the Reign of Winter campaign (though Meowzebub and Twigs feature in one of these already :P), then take a look at the two links below to see how a large scale multi-round combat played out for me previously under this system.
Example 1 and Example 2
You'll note that at some times I paused the combat to allow for retcons to occur, at other times I reassigned actions to alternative targets, etc.
Okay, look at the first round of example 1. Let's say instead of missing badly, Hilde rolls exactly the bandit's AC, so you narrate that she hits. Then someone who beat her on initiative rushes into melee with that bandit so she should have had to take -4 on her roll due to not having Precise Shot. She even goes on to say that if she knew that Olaf was charging (which happened before her action so she should have seen what he did before she acted), she would have done something different. That's the one consolation of rolling low on Init: having a better knowledge of the battlefield to act on than those who are quicker into the fray.
What about soft cover and knowing who is where when you're attacking?
What about when a player is composing a post with dialogue and description and by the time they submit, someone else has posted a quick "Move here, attack that" post that invalidates everything they just spent a half an hour putting together?
I mean, I once spent three rounds getting in position to set up a flank. It was so much fun when it paid off. When you're playing a PC who doesn't major on hitting other things with a stick, the choreography, the dance of Delaying until the battlefield is in precisely the configuration you've been waiting for, is all you've got going for you. It's tactics. It's chess (which I suck at, but still). I mean, there's more to playing a high-Int character than casting spells, especially at low levels when your spells are kind of lame and you don't have enough of them to go around.
As a DM I'm not too concerned with you guys sequencing your attacks or aids to make best use of actions... as it's kind of what I get to do anyway as I group the bad guys onto the same initiative. I don't think it's going to fundamentally break the combat progression or allow for any explicit exploitation of the rules.
The difference is, you're acting for all of them. The PCs can also coordinate and go in the most advantageous order through Readying and Delaying. If one of the players has an idea to gain a tactical advantage but by the time they have time to post, all the people after them in init have already performed their actions, then the PCs are, in fact, not making the best use of actions.
A first-come-first-served combat system tends to cause PCs to think as individuals -- What will my PC do this turn and the next, irrespective of what anyone else might be doing? -- whereas an ordered initiative allows the PCs to use group tactics -- How will we, as a party, use the resources at our disposal to defeat this enemy? -- just like your NPCs.
I like the way it is now, not a strict order for the sake of keeping things moving. Supporting actions will jump ahead in initiative just as often as they'll fall behind, it'll balance out over time. Chalk it up to the chaos of combat.
I'll note that it isn't truly first come first served as the initiative order of resolution does come into play. When collating actions I'll resolve them in initiative order and if something doesn't make sense I'll either apply good judgement (such as in the Hilde example you stated - I directed the shot against a bandit that was still standing) or I'll pause for a revised action.
An example of that from the first combat I linked here where I allowed a retcon to suit the flow of battle.
My comment wasn't meant to be read as: Y'all just post whenever and I'll collate things at the end.
But more as:
Don't feel that you must wait until everyone in front of you in initiative has acted before making your post... unless you specifically want / need to.
Talk about tactics (IC), direct actions, delay and ready as needed. I don't want to put any barriers between you and that.
I've found Voiceless' combats the smoothest of any PbP I've played. I don't want to see any changes to the formula, because it definately ain't broke.
A first-come-first-served combat system tends to cause PCs to think as individuals -- What will my PC do this turn and the next, irrespective of what anyone else might be doing? -- whereas an ordered initiative allows the PCs to use group tactics -- How will we, as a party, use the resources at our disposal to defeat this enemy? -- just like your NPCs.
I disagree. In fact, I've found the opposite. With plenty of room to discuss tactics, suggest actions and post dialogue I find combat a lot more dynamic and tactical. Whereas at the table after Jimmy Lightninghands the wizard finishes looking up his spell ranges, Larry Laptopson stops IMing and makes his turn and the game wheels around to you, I've got a lot less sense of where the combat's going than when i can step away and think about what the other PCs have, or are planning to do this turn.
After thinking over it a bit more I concede a few of the points Joana has made and realised that some of my eagerness to drive things forward in thread perhaps were exacerbating that as well.
From my side, I'll be making sure that the updates happen in strict initiative order - so I won't skip ahead to post the results out of order for anything that affects the combat.
For updates from your side, I'll ask for 'reasoned' haste in terms of posting order. As in, if it's morning and you know you'll be on later in the day - maybe wait a bit to give those ahead in the order time to post. I find that over time you generally settle into a rhythm of sorts and know when others are likely to be online as well, which helps.
If you're rushed and only have a short while or limited window, then feel free to put down a marker in that time.
Hopefully we can get the rhythm going well and while we might have a few bits go a little slower, it should still allow for a dynamic and ordered team based tactical fight.
Just responding in OOC - yes, we are using soft cover and all other rules as per core.
Also - Harrol, you got a bit ahead of yourself with stonethrowing. Your third attack roll is for next round after the roaches have another bite.
Sick bub tonight...
Just responding in OOC - yes, we are using soft cover and all other rules as per core.
Just wanted to be sure everyone's on the same page. I've seen just within the past week or so in the Rules forums where some veteran DMs aren't even aware the soft cover rules exist; they thought the -4 for firing into melee was the only penalty that could apply to ranged attacks.
Gregori moved, but Aarol's second move technically hasn't happened yet on your initiative so the bugs are still in melee* and wouldn't remove him from between you and the roach anyway; he stepped back toward you but is still in the 9 row. At the moment, we have a line of allies from 7 to 10 providing soft cover to all the roaches from our position.
As far as preposting actions goes, when your plan is basically "attack the nearest enemy," it doesn't really matter to you what your allies or doing or how successful they are. When your mission statement is instead to make your allies successful in attacking their enemies, it makes a great deal of difference when you already know whether the bonus you intend to give them will make a difference to the outcome of their action or not.
To me, it feels like cheating to Aid Another or provide a flank or cast a buff or do anything that changes the results of an roll I've already seen. There's a reason that there are different mechanics in the game for adding bonuses before a die is rolled and after, and that the bonuses are both larger and more common when applied to rolls that haven't happened yet. My general intention with Eudocia was to use her Acrobatics to set up flanks for allies, particularly Aarol to get his sneak attack in play, but to the extent that I've already seen rolls that come after me in init, I won't be doing anything that interacts with those results.
I have no objection to people posting their intentions if they're not quite up in initiative order yet and will be unavailable for some time (although I would still prefer such rolls be spoilered so I don't have to know if my Aid Another/ flank/ what-have-you will be relevant); I just don't want to get into a situation where people post three rounds of actions at once as a matter of course.
VoV - sorry to hear, hope your bub gets better quickly
In regards to the posting sequence of round actions: I liked what VoV had set up originally and I don't want tons of encounter posts behind spoilers. The easy solution is simply don't metagame. Sometimes unexpected events alter the field of battle, that happens in combat.
In regards to player actions: I do want players to take the actions they envision for their character, even if someone else would have done things differently, such as using a bolt on the roaches. That variety and surprise is part of the fun of having a group dynamic. If Theo would keep firing away at the roaches because that's what Theo would do, then he should be played that way and I hope everyone does that.
Also, please, please, don't hold up the gameplay thread for discussions. Joana, you waited 24 hours from the time it was Docia's turn despite posting multiple long bits in the discussion thread and I found that very frustrating, especially given that your discussion was about people posting in order.
The easy solution is simply don't metagame.
That's actually not easy for me. I can't play an adventure that's been spoiled for me without constantly second-guessing myself: Would I have done that if I didn't know what was coming? Which way would I go if I didn't know where the trap was? I don't have any fun like that.
Sometimes unexpected events alter the field of battle, that happens in combat.
Which is modeled by the initiative system, in which people don't know what's going to happen after they've committed to a particular course of action, not by people pretending not to know what's going to happen.
In regards to player actions: I do want players to take the actions they envision for their character, even if someone else would have done things differently, such as using a bolt on the roaches. That variety and surprise is part of the fun of having a group dynamic. If Theo would keep firing away at the roaches because that's what Theo would do, then he should be played that way and I hope everyone does that.
The OOC question was a question to clarify whether soft cover rules are in play, as I've played in some games where the DM doesn't use them. The OOC suggestion was a suggestion of a way Theodric might feel more useful in combat. I've played a lot of low-level casters with crossbows and eventually come to feel I might as well spend my standard action snapping them over my character's knee as firing them.
The IC statement was in character, just like some of the other PCs' in-character remarks about how much they don't want to take orders from a prissy Taldan princess. This game was specifically set up for one character to be the leader, and Eudocia was chosen. Both were Mark's decision. You guys don't seem to have a problem asking Gregori for orders.
Also, please, please, don't hold up the gameplay thread for discussions. Joana, you waited 24 hours from the time it was Docia's turn despite posting multiple long bits in the discussion thread and I found that very frustrating, especially given that your discussion was about people posting in order.
First, I did not wait 24 hours from Docia's turn. When Docia was up in initiative order, I was the next post in-thread, expressing my intention to delay until after Gregori moved. I wanted to see where he was going and which bug he would attack; my intention was to see where all the melee combatants were set up and try to get in position for a flank, not as easy to predict several moves ahead of time as "attack the nearest monster." That moved my initiative to the end of the round after Gregori's turn. Gregori acted at 9:07 last night my time. That is when it became Docia's turn, and I posted 14 hours later.
Why so long? As soon as he acted, I looked at the map and started my post. It took me a while because I was getting my kids bathed and put to bed. I had a parting statement to Theodric and the NPCs, a bit of interior monologue, a move up to Aarol's shoulder in the fray, a witty remark and a suggestion about positioning so that she could provide him with a flank the following round. When I previewed a little more than 2 hours after Gregori's post, I found that Aarol had already wounded the bug and stepped, despite the fact that Theodric and I hadn't acted yet, and Harrol had already posted his round 3 action! At that point I was tired and frustrated and still had to catch up my other games, and the post I'd spent all my time on made no sense anymore. So I expressed my concerns in the discussion thread, PMed Mark to apologize about not posting last night due to my exhausted and annoyed state of mind, and caught up my other games. I didn't make it to bed until 4 AM.
So:
"please, please, don't post in the gameplay thread too early. Bombadil, you posted ahead of two other people despite posting twice in the discussion thread before it actually got to your initiative, thus proving that you would have been available to post in order if you'd chosen to be patient. I found it very frustrating to waste time I could have spent updating other games -- or sleeping! -- composing a post I had to delete, especially given that your frustration was due to me not posting."
And I didn't post in the gameplay thread last night because when I post when I'm tired and angry, I end up with a post like this, and I prefer to keep OOC issues separate from the IC thread.
So after staying up till 3 am last night with bub, today was punctuated by man flu... and midnight fireworks for Malaysia's independence day waking everyone back up again... so I won't be able to squeeze in a post tonight unfortunately.
As to the discussions ongoing, every PbP goes through some bumpy patches and feeling out - so hopefully we can take out of this what we each need to (myself included) and keep on rolling.
Hope everyone is enjoying their Labor Day in the US :)
Yes I am, had me a little slow on the response.
Looks like I am slowly working my way up the d20 distribution one digit at a time. I am going to be Shiva Detstroyer of Worlds when I reach 17-18-19-20.
I'm stepping out of this game. Thanks for the opportunity VoV. Best of luck to everyone, have a great adventure.
Wh... what? That's a little sudden, isn't it? I'm sorry to hear that.
Aarol - understood. Sorry to see you go, but thanks for letting us know.
I've a full day meeting at work today, so will update when I am able later tonight.
I totally missed Harrol's post last night, or I would have put message on him before he went forward to scout. In general, whenever someone separates from the party for a scouting mission, can we assume it's standard operating procedure for Docia to cast message to keep in touch with them in case I miss the development again? If they do find something dangerous, they're not as likely to break Stealth to let us know about it.
I'm happy for message to be an assumed cast, and I've also floated the idea of 'team stealth' in the past... which I'd be happy to revisit if people think it could be useful?
So I'd like to propose that designated team scout could lead all of you with him on scouting with the following restrictions:
- Party members are assumed to be as stealthy as the lead character, until they take independent action.
- The stealth lead must remain at the head of the group, and the group will be reliant upon his Stealth and Perception rolls - until independent action is taken.
- If independent action (spell casting, moving away from the group, attacking) is taken then that character rolls their own Stealth and is held to it.
- Knowledge checks, whispers and other quiet activities do not count as independent action
Essentially would let any or all of you accompany designated team scout forward without increasing the risk of the action - until you choose to act upon it.Thoughts?
I think that coupled with Message as SOP would be the perfect tactical scouting setup. Of course people like Gregori benefit most since he's a walking tank that's also party light source
Caught up in a busy long-weekend, expect post in roughly 24 hours ish.
This does not bode well. If we had a dwarf in the party I'd cast levitate on him, but no dice on that. If the globes of darkness move with these creatures we are in SERIOUS trouble. Can I use Knowledge (Geometry) to try to determine the radius of the sphere to aim a color spray? ;-)
Color spray's a 15-foot-cone, so you'd still have to step into the darkness to get the monsters in the area of effect. Might be worth a try, though. Of course, we wouldn't know if it had worked since the caster only knows the result of the saving through on a targeted spell, not an AoE.
If they cast darkness on something stationery, all we have to do is stay out of the area and draw them out; if they cast in on themselves so the effect moves with them (much more likely), I don't know what we can do. We haven't the speed to run away from them. I was thinking we might be able to maneuver them to one side and leave a sliver of non-dark for the NPCs to escape by, but the cavern's not large enough. Choose two characters to sacrifice and make our escape blindly while the darkmantles are busy eating them? :P
Darkness against a party without a single character with darkvision or any resources to overcome it is pretty brutal. Sometimes I feel like Paizo plans encounters for the best-case scenario ("Well, if there's a dwarf and a half-orc in the party, this will barely be a speedbump") and doesn't even consider what might happen in the worst-case party make-up.
Don't worry I got this. Unfortunately I go last.
Oh, that's right: Gregori's an aasimar; I keep forgetting. I know he has the halo thing, but I guess I keep thinking it's an archetype or class ability.
Glad someone can see what's going on.
EDIT: On that note, is Gregori's heritage noticeable when his halo's off, or can he pass for human? In retrospect, I probably should have reacted more IC when he turned his hair on, although considering Eudocia just saw Kenabres ripped asunder by demons, witnessed a dragon's death, and survived falling into the depths of the earth, perhaps it's forgivable if she takes things a little more in stride. Big picture and all that.
Oh, I thought you were a human. Forgive my dumb question, but can Theodric tell that you are an Aasimar? If I know you have darkvision, I'll float you on up there. ;-)
DM is interested to see too... as I thought the Halo ability traded out darkvision?
Even without, I don't think you're in too much of a pickle yet.... yet...
Well, if you're waiting on my action I'll delay for now.
It's not what you think, although the halo will come into play.
That's two delayed actions. Assuming Eudocia agrees and does the same we can jump ahead. I'm guessing you mean to cast your daylight SLA, right? Everybody seems to forget that exists.
Eudocia's action was already posted in the IC thread.
You is waiting on the DM, who is in kid wrangling mode while my wife is off at a birth (not hers). Tonight it shall come lah
I have the feeling we're eventually going to have to bite the bullet and eat something unappetizing down here. More crucially, we haven't run across any source of potable water in all our walking yet, DM? I suppose Harrol can learn create water at the cost of one of his available orisons to keep us hydrated.
No potable water yet, no.
I hear darkmantle sashimi is all the rage in Kaer Maga these days though :P