I don't disagree -- and it would certainly be demonstrative of large shifts in their relationship over time. ;)
Besides which, it's Callix' religious duty to share the beer.. and the wine. (Though she might have to smite anyone who spills)
Are you aware of the tears to wine spell Callix? ;)
Sorry Timm, I understand your desire and emotion to score that critical, but that was rude, specially as a just arrival who still needs to observe and understand the party dynamics before trying to disrupt them.
The preview button is there for these cases (in fact we should use it always before submitting to avoid all kind of errors), and when you submit "ninjaed" posts appear over yours, so you should notice if someone went ahead and took the initiative.
Do not worry, there will be plenty of opportunities for combat, and if the troll results to resist the charm, I am sure from what I know about our GM that he will be nice enough to take that 20 for your action so the critical will not be lost anyway.
Yes, I agree! Her post wasn’t there when I previewed it either. Regardless, when I posted, I could finally see it and edit mine. I took it into consideration, then went to read the scene more in details. Timm doesn’t speak skald, neither he knows spellcraft. All that he saw was she advancing towards a troll, pronouncing magic words and shuffling on her spell components pouch. Since it was already a second action before Timm took even his first, I considered it would be pure metagaming to have him understand what was going on out of nothing and just stays patiently waiting for whatever-he-has-no-idea to happen. He never saw she doing anything similar before; he doesn’t have any idea what each person there is capable of. He just knows she flies, and was now advancing towards a troll and casting a spell.
In my defense about taking two actions before Timm got one, keep in mind that we would have had to wait for the other two trolls to move out of view, otherwise we'd have had to fight all three anyway. So it wouldn't have been like we were in round-to-round actions.
Yes, definitely. I was mostly referring to the overall social contract on this type of game (more than in a combat perspective), but I think the fact we got the weekend in-between didn’t help much either. Without speaking the language or understanding spells, though, and in the spirit of preventing meta game... Maybe some sort of sense motive? With some penalties because Timm has no idea of how the team operates and if they used this kind of approach before? I don’t know.
First, we don't know if the troll made its save. If it did, then this whole dispute becomes moot since Timm will have made the right call.
Second, I can understand Timm's reaction. Not being versed in magic or speaking the language, I can understand the in-character reason to blast the troll before it gets to do anything.
Third, while I was rather shocked at first that Timm didn't wait to see if my spell took hold, I can also envision a rather interesting scene where Letitia pulls off her spell and just as the troll starts grinning, Timm blasts it dead. Just be aware that Letitia's going to lay into him for that. :)
And ultimately, all I'd be out is a first-level spell that probably won't be useable again once we go into the forest (unless we fight more humanoids or giants inside). Though, Letitia would lose her new bodyguard. ;)
I am still hoping that maybe the GM would allow me some sort of sense motive? Using the rolls there or rerolling them (or the GM rolling), I don't care. I thought it would be funny to have her tell him something of the sorts "I was CHARMING him!", but I reckon it could be better. Like Letitia said, we weren't really in initiative, so maybe (putting the metagaming discussion aside) someone that knows what's going on could really just get the gnome to hold his horses.
I think from an RP perspective, it could allow for an interesting scenario -- but at the same time, I can't see how all of this just happened -- it's the issue with time/posting and rounds.
I mean, if Timm was willing to wait for the first two trolls to leave rather than jumping them right away, I'm thinking it's clear there was at least some understanding - and probably time for us to quickly discuss the next part of the plan (maybe even a "Be ready to blast it to ash if this charm fails).
That said, as Letitia said, losing 1 level 1 spell and having good RP fodder works for me, too - chalk it up to the rest of us having worked together long enough to understand each other's shorthand and to know when to wait -- something that Timm doesn't have (and, more, he seems the excitable sort) -- so, as Timm said, he wasn't quite sure what was going on, but when he saw a spell being cast he figured that meant "time to kill" now.
So, all that to say, I think if we accept there was a player miscommunication, then we basically have two options:
(a) rolling with it (per the previous paragraph); or
(b) walking it back as a miscommunication and letting things go the way Letitia'd intended.
Personally, I'm fine with either one... though (a) might end up with Timm on a very short leash for the foreseeable future.
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A few things here from my point of view
first, I agree with Samuel on this that Timm jumping into combat first was rude even if it wasn't quite out of line. different groups have different dynamics and can vary greatly on the spectrum of "kill everything" ---> "talk to everything". I understand that your character is going to be more apt to jump into a fight, but if it is going to go against the grain of the group I may have to ask you to reign it in a bit. Especially since this encounter started with social rolling that removed the first 2 trolls.
second, the way that I run encounters (and I believe the way they are intended to be run) does not allow for the actions taken by Timm to resolve. attacks are made in initiative rounds, which we were not in as the encounter had started as a RP encounter. if one person launches an attack, then each person should have the opportunity to also make an action, but where in there does the troll react? well that is all answered really elegantly by initiative rolls. launching an attack from inside of a RP encounter is not treated as a surprise round in my opinion, as everyone in the clearing here is all aware of each other.
spells are a bit of a gray area. attack spells are treated as described above for any other attack, but spells that do not directly attack a creature are usually useful outside of combat rounds. Charm Person is a great example. it's not very useful once a fight breaks out, but is used when someone is at least indifferent to you and having a conversation. a failure on a non-combat spell will often trigger a combat, but it allows a chance for things to resolve without ever rolling initiative.
In this same vein, I see a lot of people use "ready an action" during a RP event to try to get the equivalent of a surprise round, which I also don't allow. readying an action is something you do during your initiative round. this isn't something that happened in this encounter, but it comes up time to time.
PbP of course makes things a bit harder, things like this that would normally happen very quickly take a few days. If you want your character to kick off a combat, please describe yourself doing something aggressive but don't roll out your whole action. once someone in the party does something aggressive, I'll roll initiative for the whole encounter, and then you can make your attacks. if you want to save time in the hope that you roll high on initiative, you can spell out your actions, but please put them in a spoiler. if you act before the enemy, I'll use the spoiled action, otherwise I'm going to ask you to take your turn when your initiative comes up.
finally, if you are taking longer than a few minutes to write your post please use preview to make sure no one else has posted before you. if you do post and then see that someone else acted and it significantly changes what you are going to do, edit your action.
In this specific situation, we are going to basically treat Timm's action as if it was never posted. he was starting to get ready to cast a fire spell and Samuel stopped him, throwing him off enough that he ended up with a really low initiative, and by the time he realizes that Letitia's spell failed, Letitia is already getting smacked by a troll. now it is all of your turn, so everyone can now take any actions they see fit.
if you have further questions about this, feel free to continue the discussion here, or send me a PM. hopefully this helps clear things up
I agree and I think it's a fair point. While I think PCs should also be able to act tempestuously and provoke a surprise round, I can certainly abide for the particular rules here and act accordingly.
The one thing I don't agree is with the offenses - not only what Samuel posted in gameplay, but what he posted (and removed) later here in the discussion tab.
It's important to be respectful with the people playing with us. In the PbP environment, things get even more critical - it's easy to be misinterpreted, and the fact you're not seeing people in person shouldn't be treated as a shield to act disrespectfully.
The fact someone joined a game after you doesn't automatically entitle you to act superior. There's a social contract going on; we're all people behind the smiling avatars trying to have fun.
Things started wrong maybe even before Timm joined. I had the privilege to be invited, and was ecstatic to join. With it all said, I'm not asking anyone for favors or begging to be around. I'm thankful for the invite, but I still consider me a player that should be treated in equal terms - so, the fact people were already messaging the GM and placing reservations against my character even before I posted in gameplay is really, really bad form and leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
The GM was graceful enough to still give me a chance, despite whatever apparent reservations people could have against a character that haven't even posted before, or a player they never played with before (despite my many years hosting games and playing here in dozens of different games in the forums).
Then, gameplay kicks - The initial reception Timm received was arguably "roleplaying", but things like suggesting he should stay behind taking care of the children - even after the awkwardness of the beginning - was uncalled for, exaggerated and, again, maybe insensitive towards the fact that there's a player here more than a character.
I took it all in good form. You never know who's on the other side of the screens, right? Maybe some people are simply complicated, or feel too entitled instead of remembering that no one is better than anyone.
When this action came - for a combination of not previewing enough a post and the will to contribute and perform a meaningful action, I decided to take the risk and go ahead with it; certain actions (like casting spells) are usually turn-starting, and realistically it sounded fun that Timm had no way to knowing if she was throwing a fireball, summoning two buckets of water or trying to charm an enemy.
Sure - it's the type of thing that, in the name of the same social contract I aforementioned, we could oversee the metagaming and just pretending Timm naturally knew to keep his pace, somehow feeling what was going on (I even suggested the "Sense Motive" route, but likely not even needed; for instance, it was simply a matter of the GM making a call to keep things moving).
Regardless of everything, as I brought up before... I want to have the opportunity to play Timm, and I like the group dynamics and the AP. I like the GM style too, and would like to continue - if GM and the team would still have me. However, I wouldn't want to continue without voicing that I very much expect to be respected, not offended, and treated fairly on the same terms of any other player - no matter when I joined the game. If this is agreeable, then I'm sure I'll learn the team pace and we will all have a blast. Pun intended!
Respectfully, Timm, I think you're over-relying on this "social contract" you keep referencing. Or, perhaps, treating it too simplistically.
I would argue that there are three considerations one should take into consideration:
-Service to the story
-Service to the characters
-Service to the game/players
To take your "social contract" analogy further, our actions within the game space should be considered with all three of those in mind. Sometimes, they're in tension -- what's best for the characters may not be best for the story, and vice-versa. But when all three are served in equal measure, it's a beauty to behold. But sometimes, something has to fall secondary or tertiary in order for others to be served.
Timm, I'm not sure how familiar you are with what has come before in this game, but it's all within the thread for you to read at your leisure. If you've read our earlier adventures, then you'd know that the characters have been through a lot, and that they have few reasons to trust anyone new.
So, our initial distrust of Timm, and our suggestions that he remain with the children, served our characters and the story, though they may not have necessarily served the player (you) because we didn't welcome him in with open arms.
If we had, that would mean we were placing the story and characters last behind service to the players -- which I don't think was necessary. It breaks the story's believability if characters unquestioningly welcome a random stranger just because they have a floating "PC" marker over their head.
Obviously, it would similarly break the game if someone said, "I don't care who it is, my character wouldn't trust a newcomer. He can't join." That's an uncompromising stance that *might* make sense from a story or character perspective, except that it's to the detriment of the game.
But no one's done that here.
Instead, there's been, in my estimation, a conditional acceptance that should give Timm the chance to join and prove himself over the course of the future of the game. To shout, "Social contract! My character wasn't appropriately welcomed!" is placing the player unfairly over the story and the characters as they've been developed so far.
Keep in mind that this is coming from the player who has had a gun barrel shoved in their face. (I still think that moment was one of the highlights of the game.) The trust our characters have developed since that time has been earned. No one's saying that Timm can't eventually reach that point... I'm just saying that this "social contract" doesn't give you a right to it from the start.
I can only speak to what I've seen to date, Timm (and know nothing of things that happened previous to you posting) -- but I will say that Callix being cool toward you was based on the fact that we're literally strangers in a strange land who don't know who we can trust and are prone to make that nobody by default - especially when the newcomer seems a little too friendly -- and, doubly so on the heels of having just lost a dear colleague about 30 minutes ago and not even being able to recover his corpse.
That is to say, all of that is Callix reacting to the situation -- it's RP and serving both her character and the story.
Per my earlier post, I think that it could be reasonable that Timm did, in fact, leap into combat for reasons of confusion. However, in that situation, it would also be extremely natural that the rest of the party would naturally: (a) be upset; and, (b) question Timm's judgement. ANd, given that the stakes are freeing the North (and our lives are literally on the line), those two things would (and should) likely lead to some harsh words, deeds, and admonishments to not get us all killed by trying to burn everything that moves. Again, because that's what makes sense in character under those circumstances. It's not personal, and realistically, the fact that we'd give you another chance (or two) rather than leaving you in a snowbank and running the other way is, at least, part of the social contract between PCs. As Letitia said, the party didn't close ranks and toss you out, they brought you along - conditionally (and that "conditionally" is, again, in character, not out) to give your character time to prove himself and earn your spot in the party....
... which isn't the same as earning your spot at the table from an out-of-character perspective. As a player, you have every right to be here, to provide comments, insight, suggestions, all of that -- but, as you said, you're one player of 5 (not counting the GM), and we also have the right to disagree. However, I stand by the fact that as a player you have every right to contribute to the collective story we're trying to write here....
But that's the thing, it's a collective story, and I have to say, that accusations of 'entitlement' because we're playing our characters in ways that you don't agree with - that we didn't drop everything to give warm hugs to Strangey McNewGnome (who, so far, has been treated far more kindly by Callix than Letitia was, at the very least) -- well, that, I find a mite troubling. You say you like the group dynamic, well, that dynamic developed over time as a result of RP -- which, as Letitia suuggested, is the opportunity you have -- and, to be clear, that's the same deal that every one of us got when we joined, too.
Oh, totally, Callix. The "entitlement" was not directed at the characters - I understand where they would be coming from. Between Letitia's comments above, however, or for the offenses that Samuel posted (and removed), I feel this should have been clear.
There is no "over-relying" on simply asking to be considered with similar respect in the table, as just another player. Joining a game before do not make you better than the people joining after. It doesn't entitle you to offend other people; it doesn't entitle you to raise issues about the player without ever seeing him posting. Your character can think he's the king or queen of the world, and think things rotate around them. The players shouldn't.
If all that can be understood from what I posted is "he is complaining about how his gnome was treated" and not the arrogant misplaced sense of entitlement and the need of respect between players, then I feel my presence really isn't welcome (as a player) and I don't want to be disruptive to the "well oiled machine" that is here (and maybe that's all that certain people here wanted me to say) - which means I should likely apologize to the GM, and be thankful for the opportunity.
I am sorry if my words offended you as a person. The adjectives I put were qualifying the situation itself: "That was rude and non empathic", note 'that' referred to derailing the charm and not being open to correct and retcon back your attack when Letitia called you. I never qualified you as a player. I do not know you and I am convinced this was just the typical miss-adjustment of coming into a new table.
I think Letitia's player reply on Discussion was very understanding and empathic with you and seemed to have interest on just managing the event in-character. As such I decided to delete my message to respect her will and avoid paralyzing the discussion.
My speech was perhaps more direct from what you are used to. Let's just leave it in a cultural misunderstanding. Me and my wife are from different European countries and I can tell you she has a speech even more direct than mine. It sometimes really takes an effort to understand she is just being more honest and pragmatical than me in her speech and not just looking for conflict :)
So, let's just not create a fuzz out of this. We are all here to have fun. I have nothing against you as a person and I hope you are able to put all this aside, have fun and feel welcomed as much as anyone else.
In the long run, it might happen that you do not like our playing style here, and it is fine too. Looking at all my other campaigns, this group has a very distinct approach to character interactions and tends to resolve encounters more creatively and non-violently than any of my other campaigns. And the style we prize is not necessarily the more common or popular.
Hopefully everyone feels that this has been resolved. I would love to have us move beyond this initial misunderstanding and continue forward smoothly. if anyone feels that they have not been understood well or need to discuss this further, please feel free to reach out to me by PM.
in a totally unrelated note, I have an opening for another PC in a Ruins of Azlant game that I am running. Samuel is already a member of that party. we are currently pushing towards the end of book 2 with the PCs at level 6.
the group is exploring a dungeon right now, and one of the players went missing. someone joining the game could jump right into the action by taking control of the driverless PC and then bring their own character in afterwards, or could just wait until this area is resolved before joining.
if you are interested, send me a PM
I believe I am in fault here and I apologize for the disruptions. I'd love to continue with Timm and I feel he can be useful (and fun, for RP reasons). Thanks! :)
Just as an FYI, I've got an action planned, but I want to see if the damage-dealers in the party drop this troll first. So I'm waiting on everyone else.
a good time too show off the firepower of the new PC! maybe Timm roasting a troll right before it squashes Letitia will help cement him with the group
It's nice that I can save my flaming weapon trick and not need to cauterize every troll. ;)
be sure to move your tokens as you explore this map. it is quite large and with the 10' squares it may be hard to see exactly where you are without zooming in. if you're trying to move the tokens and having trouble, let me know in your post where you want to be and I'll move you.
I just watched Posledniy bogatyr yesterday. It is a recent Russian movie that mixes nowadays with russian fairy tales, and one of the main characters is Baba Yaga. Perhaps the humor is too russian to be well understood, but it was interesting to me to see about this character, and the technical manufacture of the movie is high quality. I would say it would greatly appeal to a Russian teenager.
Here you have a good description of the movie in English.
wow, high initiative rolls for everyone this time! this combat might be rather quick...
sorry for the delay everyone. I definitely posted all of that yesterday.... dang forums sometimes
Wow, sorry to hear that, I hope you had it in the browser cache or copied into some file.
Besides, the bullet was not cold iron. By default Samuel always preloads normal ones. But this round he will load and shot a cold iron one. Specially after Letitia's warning ;)
Well, getting such a crit on the first rounds of combat always feels a bit anti-climatic, but it does not happen often, so let's cherry and use the saved time and resources to hasten our deepening on the adventure :)
One of the things I do like about 20/x4 crit range is, although in average you deal less damage than 18/x2, when you get one critical it really feels special!
I wasn't complaining. ;)
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No, those crits are exciting, particularly because they only come once in a great while.
That fear of being anti-climactic is why I don't usually lead off with my Slumber hex -- especially against solo enemies. It could make everyone else feel superfluous and generate frustration.
As someone who's played a witch, I totally get it - the fear of stealing thunder with what is, effectively, a save-or-die that actually scales with level. In fact, I've even avoided taking slumber just to avoid that, even though it makes almost no sense to do so (outside of Ustalav or Kyonin, anyway).
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Hi guys! Posting it on all my pbps.
Our offshore team at work is very affected by the pandemic at the moment and with the fiscal year approaching to an end, our reduced capacity is terribly affecting my time. For the next several weeks it will likely impact me in such way that I simply won't be able to keep up with the forums, things normalizing only as we start approaching mid June.
For the games where I play, GMs please feel free to bot the characters. If you don't desire to bot me for so long, I completely understand, apologize for the late notice and wish you all the best of fun. If you hold me around, though, I should be back after this storm.
For the games where I host, my sincerest apologies to the players - I won't let you hanging so if you stick around until my return we will give it continuation as normal. Otherwise, please message me and once I'm back I'll recruit replacements.
To everybody, I'm sorry for the late notice and I hope we will continue playing together once I'm back!
Cheers,
Archlich
No worries, real life is busy. I totally get the end of year crunch time. thanks for the heads up, and we will bot you until you're ready to return.
Yeah, life is asking us to be quite flexible this year. Good luck and see you back soon!
yeah, friggin tax season and life is getting brutal
@callix, the perytons are attacking in melee, so they are close enough to the ground that you can swing an axe at them. they do not have flyby attack or anything of the like. feel free to adjust your action if you would rather use an axe.
I'll give until tomorrow for Callix to redo her action and for ashling to post before moving to the next round.
and Samuel, is your musket magical at this point, or still mundane damage?
Only masterwork GM! I have an oil of magical weapon, but if we see we can crack these two without it, I will save it for now in case something more potent requires it!
Sorry, not sure how to react -- did Letitia start combat, or did Samuel defuse the situation and we're moving on? ;)
I don't know. Letitia's instinct is to respond to the attack with violence. It could be amusing if she's dragged away by the others who are more interested in moving on. But I have a feeling that the partygoers might not let us go peacefully.
Sort of need to see what the other reactions are to know if there's running in with axes in hand, or...well, not. ;)
I'll post after work, but lets just say Ash has very little care for the value of humanoid life...
Hi guys! Posting it on all my pbps.
Our offshore team at work is very affected by the pandemic at the moment and with the fiscal year approaching to an end, our reduced capacity is terribly affecting my time. For the next several weeks it will likely impact me in such way that I simply won't be able to keep up with the forums, things normalizing only as we start approaching mid June.
For the games where I play, GMs please feel free to bot the characters. If you don't desire to bot me for so long, I completely understand, apologize for the late notice and wish you all the best of fun. If you hold me around, though, I should be back after this storm.
To everybody, I'm sorry for the late notice and I hope we will continue playing together once I'm back!
Cheers,
Archlich
Any word from Timm? It's past mid-June, to the point that we're almost in July.
As much as I like rolling 20s for him on attack rolls, does anyone know if he's coming back?
I hope we do have word, this would be a weird point to lose someone
He has not posted on any of his other campaigns, all end with the same post that day. No one seems to know more about him.
I hope he is ok.
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I will send him a message to check on him, but if he is not responding to any of his games it is unlikely he will see a message.
obviously hard to replace a PC right in the middle of the forest we're in here. We will continue to have Timm bot along with the group until out of this area. if he hasn't shown up by then I'll find a new player to join us for the start of book 3.
I'll be away for the long weekend, which for us Canucks, begins today. See everyone Monday. Feel free to bot Callix, as needed.
Have a nice weekend holidays Callix!
GM, for the next round, can Samuel act normally now that he made a new save?
yes, Samuel is back to normal now, he just lost the round where he shook it off.
enjoy the long weekend Callix!
copying and pasting for all of my games
I will be traveling from the 29th through the 7th. I will try to post at least some while I am gone, but we are going to help the in-laws fix up a house for sale, so not a lot of free time most likely. for games I am playing in please bot me as needed, for games I am running thank you in advance for your patience with my slow posting!
Enjoy your time GM, and see you back after holidays!