@Reginald - so you think that [enlarging] Raseri would be a bad idea as well, because I can probably target her.
Also, I thought we decided that this was definitely going to lead to a fight and that we should try to make a stand now (because they can always lay traps for us, ambush us later, etc and they know the dungeon better than we do). I think this would be a hard fight (and definitely the last one for the day) but we could win. Enlarge person, hope the misfortune hex nails the boss and we're set! :)
I'm saying we should try to fight if they come out into the hall, but if they don't chase Raseri out, we can just leave. They don't know our numbers yet, so they don't know there's a group compromising the safety of their hideout.
If we're able to just walk away, I put in several ideas for ways we might be able to deal with them without fighting them. We may even think of a few more practical ones later on.
Imagine if all the guys in there have bows, crossbows, or some other ranged attacks. Now imagine a giant target suddenly appearing in the doorway for them to shoot. Then, after that, imagine trying to shoot past that giant target to shoot the guys who are shooting the target!
Large targets can also be flanked by twice as many people, so if she went into the room to give everyone a clear shot, she'd probably get torn apart. Even if they somehow were all melee, we wouldn't be able to efficiently bottleneck them in the hall either because Raseri would be taking up a 10x10' area, and that means Reginald couldn't stand beside her while fighting, and would be granting cover to the enemies agains Raseri's reach attacks if he stood in front of her. It's a lose/lose tactical situation for us to use enlarge in a confined space under these circumstances. We can probably fight them better at normal size if they come into the hallway.
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I'm not going to progress the actions here until I get some clarification of what everyone wants to do. It seems that some people want to fight, and some people want to retreat. I'd also like to hear Ninivic and Bryce's thoughts on the situation.
One thing I'll note is that if you enlarge someone, it is highly unlikely anyone else will be able to do anything but attempt to attack through them, which means soft cover + fighting in melee penalty (if you don't have precise shot) on every attack. That's a -8 penalty. You're unlikely to be able to get into the bigger room at this rate.
Not quite twice. It's more like this:
Small/Med - 8 max
Large - 12 max
Huge - 16 max
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Each size increase adds four flankers. It's linear instead of exponential.
As for the plan I think we're leaning towards fight.
Well, let's hear what the others have to say.
Why I said "I think" instead of "We are" ;)
As a player, I want to fight! But, as a character (I think I've tried to show this in character) Olo is more on the cowardly side. He thinks of fleeing of if things look bad to fight another day. Ultimately, if Raseri is being attacked Olo would not run away. But, if she retreats and tells him to run he would defer to her as the better combatant and follow her orders
I guess this kind of depends on how Alice thinks these guys would react, right? If they storm out after her, it's probably going to lead to a fight. Raseri will be engaged in melee, possibly taking AoO to get out in which case we would be at her side.
It's hard playing a character that is smarter than you are as a player!
Sorry I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Olo assumes this will be a fight and thinks it would be better to face it now rather than later. However, he will NOT leave Raseri alone. If she engages, he will take that as a sign and move to start throwing hexes (since Enlarge person is clearly not a good option at this time!).
I think I might need to provide some background for the GM and everyone else. Be warned, what follows is a wall of text.
Raseri is part of a clan that I came up with shortly after I started playing Pathfinder. The short version is they are a family that take their oaths very seriously, and the first oath they take is to weed out wickedness where they can and protect the innocent with everything they have. The longer version is most of the members of the clan are of a good alignment, even if some of them are a little gruff. They are from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, and they have that bit of stubbornness to them as well. They aren't likely to back down from a fight if one finds them. They also tend to take the approach of shields are useful as offensive weapons as well and would try to do all they could to stop someone evil if they know that they are evil, even if the person hasn't done anything to them. They aren't Lawful Stupid, though and will retreat to a more advantageous position if they are outmatched. This is one of those cases. She's hoping that the bandits will come after her anyway. There eight of them and only on of her after all. ;)
That said, the more I find out about LotLK and the rest of Golarion, the more I think that the Whitescale clan doesn't fit, so I've been thinking of a world where they do. If I ever put pen to paper, I'll let you guys see it.
Alice - I think you should just move forward with whatever the bad guys are going to do. I don't mean to be a jerk, but I also feel like we're all "stuck" right now and don't want to suffer that worst of curses for a PBP - inertia.
Also, ironically, I know that we are "paused" in the game even though time goes on in the real world. I had a brief vision of Reggie saying, "Screw this!" and just running forward to attack. Ha.
We last heard from both of them on Thursday, so I think it's reasonable to move ahead if we don't hear from them today. I don't run this game, though, so it's ultimately not my call. I just thought I'd weigh in.
Sorry, in the midst of a bad cold. Ninivic has no idea how many of them there are right now (he's thinking 5-6 based on listening at the door), so I'd say he'd be inclined to see us try to pull them into the corridor and jump them. If 8 bandits show up in the corridor, he'll be inclined to run.
Sorry, in the midst of a bad cold. Ninivic has no idea how many of them there are right now (he's thinking 5-6 based on listening at the door), so I'd say he'd be inclined to see us try to pull them into the corridor and jump them. If 8 bandits show up in the corridor, he'll be inclined to run.
Raseri said eight of you when talking to the bandits.
Pardon for the delay from my side girls and boys, I had a bad case of real life happening :-(
I am very much against fighting these guys, in the first place.
if they chase after Raseri, I would like to have us retreat back into the tunnel where they could not use so well their numbers advantage.
Bryce could even try and setup some most basic trap - just stringing rope across the hallway and have them trip or something - not much of a trap, but it gives us a precious few seconds or an AoO while one or two of them are down.
Anyway - whatever majority decides, I will follow to the best of my abilities.
After three days of deliberation, I'm just happy we can finally move on!
Alright, our ranged people don't have precise shot (or even the point blank shot prerequisite) so they're gonna be firing at -6 if we take the front line here. The good news is that if the enemies on the other side also lack these feats, they're at the same disadvantage. If we manage to kill or route the two in the doorway, we can get inside and possibly open up better tactical options for our ranged people. If we can't, we might then consider withdrawing, especially if anyone gets hurt early on.
Reginald is going to use the surprise round to get in position.
@Reginald - sounds like a reasonable plan.
Sure, don't forget that within the first range increment Ninivic resolves against touch AC. He'll be picking up that chain, but rapid reload is pretty essential.
@Ninivic Yeah, I agree! I'm just letting everyone know what we're dealing with so nobody is surprised. xD
@Olofire You just reminded me that, yes, you can take a 5-foot step in a surprise round because you're allowed to take free actions in addition to your one action. You can't move + 5-foot step, obviously. However, you need to move to T7 and not T8 (which is 10 feet away). Other than that, you're good.
Check the below post for my tactical proposal.
This is a sample of what I'm proposing for this tactical situation.
These are listed in the order they are to be executed in the round.
Surprise round:
Reginald moves to S8.
Olofire - 5-foot step to T7, Misfortune Hex on Tall Jack.
Raseri - Stay in row 8, do not engage either orc in melee.
Molasbar - Stay where you are, cast an applicable spell if possible.
Bryce - 5-foot step to T6 and sneak attack orc at O8 with soft cover penalty (-4).
Ninivic - Stay where you are, or move to S6 and make an attack against the orc in O8 with cover penalty (-4), might be (-8) if the DM rules it improved cover. It's worth a shot.
Round 1:
Olofire - Move out of T7 and into T8 so that Bryce can have that spot. Do whatever you want after.
Bryce - 5-foot step to T7 and sneak attack Tall Jack at O7 without penalty.
Ninivic - Move to S7 and shoot Tall Jack at O7 without penalty.
Molasbar - Whatever you want (Force Missile?).
Raseri - Whatever you want.
Reginald - Probably moving to P7 and making a melee attack against Tall Jack.
This setup allows Bryce to perform two ranged sneak attacks with minimal to no penalty, and then Ninivic can step in front of Bryce and fire off an unpenalized shot at Tall Jack before Reginald and Raseri close into melee and start blocking everyone's ranged attacks. I feel like this is probably one of the most efficient ways we can start this fight. Let me know what you guys think.
Nice plan Reginald, very nice. Short question though, before posting in main thread - Bryce attack vs. orc in O8 does not seem to cross the corner of the square (thus providing soft cover). Alice does a line from T6 to O8 cross corner or not?
Great plan! I will take the 5-foot step to T7 and move the lights (which is a free action) and cast Misfortune hex.
Bleh, in that case here it goes...
I'm back and just working on getting caught up. Wow, a couple of hundred posts to get through!
Alice, congratulations on the scholarship!
As much as I'd love a second game with all of you, I think I am going to pass on the CotCT game. I am actually already in one on these boards (we are into book 4 now) so I think it is only fair to leave the spot on the team for someone who hasn't had a chance to play it yet.
@Bryce - Post your round 1 action! You should be able to sneak attack Tall Jack from the position I mentioned above without any penalties.
@Molasbar - Welcome back!
OK, looking at our options here, I say we simply retreat at this point. We did not use the surprise we had in the best way possible (or we were simply not lucky enough), now they are ready for us, and the way I see it we do not have much to gain by "charging in".
Of course, if you guys feel differently, I will support you in the best way possible, but at this moment I think orderly retreat is our safest (if not best) option.
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Your tactics for the surprise round were good, but the reality is that they are on home ground with a lot of defensive structures to move back to and you are in a cramped hallway. They have no reason to throw themselves needlessly at you and are smart enough to recognise that. Bandits don't survive by being reckless and careless after all!
I agree with you Alice. Actually, I think that Reginald did a very good job of creating "initial contact plan", but we were both not lucky enough, and they are smart enough (have the advantage of home terrain).
Where I have a bit of a issue is that maybe we should not have approached them with "talkie stuff" at all, we kind of wasted both our surprise there and a chance to position ourselves better. But, for that one I take my full share of responsibility of not influencing other party members more towards that direction. Or in other words - I do not "blame" anyone, aside from myself maybe, for taking the "initial diplomacy approach".
Hey, if we survive, than it is going to be a valuable lesson, right?
Two options:
Reginald runs in. (The Suicide Plan)
Reginald shuts the door and we leave. (The "Just Kidding" Plan)
Option three: We smoke them out. That tables wood and Ras still has a pint of oil that can be rigged to go off like a molatov. We have two casters, surely we have some way of making a lot of fire quickly.
I'm all for the smoking them out option if we can pull it off. Otherwise slam the door and we'll come back another time.
It seems like Tall Jack got hit for a total of 10 AND is affected by the misfortune hex, so that is great news. However, unless I move forward to within 30 feet to cackle it will not continue. And, he will then be immune to its effect for the next 24 hours. I do have one alchemist's fire to throw for fire-starting purposes but right now things are not looking good....
I would suggest we withdraw. Perhaps we can create a barricade, trap or even cave-in part of the passage. Let them starve and die and then come back?
I agree with Bryce, even though I know it would be meta-gaming: we should probably assume everyone in here is evil and take a fight first, ask questions later approach.
I don't think that smoking them out is going to work for a very simple reason: They'll put the fire out in the following round. There are enough of them in there that they can stomp out a small fire, and none of us physically threaten them enough to prevent it or discourage it. They probably also have a good supply of water in there if they live here.
We're in a really good position to just walk away. We wouldn't even need to bother closing the door. We can just double move around the corner. End of encounter.
Yeah, they may come after us later when we're in the dungeon. They probably would have done that whether we discovered them or not, because we haven't exactly made our presence here a secret. We've left a lot of evidence.
I suggest retreat and then proceeding carefully from here on out. If they fight us outside of their hideout later on, it's not likely to be nearly as advantageous for them as this is right now.
We haven't taken any damage, we haven't used any major resources, and nothing is really preventing us from leaving safely. There's no reason to commit, if you ask me.
Works for me, retreat it is.
OK, so we can then state that we are retreating, right? With either Ninivic or me taking care of our "back" in case they decide to follow us, while the other scouts ahead. Sounds good?
Down with it. Live to fight another day!
Sounds like a good plan to me. Seems like we have two contingencies to plan for when we get back to town:
1. Get enough oil to get into that room with adhesive
2. Work on a strategy to kill these guys. I think I will take Molasbar up on the offer to have him make some scrolls for me at cost. I can have some damaging spells ready to send at them next time we meet.
Retreat it is.
It's always difficult to play characters smarter than yourself.... I think that we should use this opportunity to maybe head back to town? We could sell some of the stuff we have, plan ahead and prepare for going back, I could have Molasbar write some scrolls maybe. Also, this avoids any potential ambush from them. Otherwise it would be south down the corridor?
I still have one Enlarge Person readied, but I think I will be changing that to another spell when I get the chance....
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Enlarge person is a great spell under normal circumstances...but it's not nearly as useful when you're in 10-ft.-wide dungeon corridors! I discovered that recently in my IRL Shattered Star game where I play a wizard...despite having a fighter, a barbarian, and a rogue/fighter in the party, I've never found the right opportunity to enlarge any of them.
I've even had trouble getting people to take my sorcerer up on it in outdoor fights in a Red Hand of Doom PbP.
It seemed like it would be great - make our fighters even bigger! I think I will either go for a utility spell of maybe a damaging spell (since my hexes are unlimited a way to still be useful in different circumstances).
I have a wizard with a wand of Enlarge Person in an Age of Worms PbP, and the paladin seems to love it. He has a great axe and bumping up the damage die type is a big benefit. Not to mention it is easier for the squishier characters to be safe behind him.
I play a half-orc in a Carrion Crown PBP here on the boards. I tend to enjoy the massive amounts of damage he can dish out while embiggened a little too much. (20 base STR + Rage + enlarge = Whole lotta hurt.)
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*pokes* No takers for where you're headed now? Your choices are:
1) South down the hallway you're on now,
2) South down from the room the gelatinous cube was in,
3) East from the hallway that lead back into the alcove with the portcullis,
4) Any of the other doors from the main entrance hall,
5) Go back to Zelkor's Ferry,
6) Mysterious other suggestion!
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Okay, changing my mind again because I'm not liking how the passive perception 10+mod thing is working out. Mainly because it seems to make Ninivic and Bryce pretty much auto succeed on all checks, but also because it cheapens Bryce's trapfinding (as well as elven senses and similar things).
So in terms of Perception checks here are my ideas:-
1.) Make you guys specify where and when you search for traps. Not really an option because it slows things down.
2.) Just make Perception DC XX spoilers for traps and secret doors, and just trust that people don't metagame.
2a.) I could make the spoilers ONLY for things that are DC 10+highest Perception mod (so DC 21 and below at the moment); anything higher means that you don't get a chance to passively perceive it (but might still find it if you are searching an area).
Note that I'd secretly roll for Bryce to notice traps (regardless of DC) automatically in this case but he would also get an extra chance if he doesn't notice it but I put up the spoiler.
3.) Always roll Perception checks for everyone secretly.
3a.) As above, but you can specify you're searching an area at any time (and effectively get a 2nd chance at spotting something.)
3b.) As above, but only for things that are DC 10+highest Perception mod. Anything higher requires people to specifically be searching.
Bryce would, of course, get 2 chances to Perceive traps.
At the moment I'm leaning towards 2a. What do you think?