Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

I know the Fey pre-dates you, but alas, the one dealing with her previously was Numalar, and to some extent, Scarlet.
Both of whom are gone now, and nobody stepped up. As a player, I am curious about her story, her purpose, and what the future holds with her.
But Alas, Alia is scared and respectful of Fey and wants as little to do with them as possible.
Just figured either of you may turn out to be interested in our other guest - who I think holds more potential danger(or a key to averting it) than the Girl we rescued.
It seemed weird that the one who is a clear Fey, who we know very little about and who tags along for reasons her own, gets a 'pass', while the seemingly harmless girl is placed under intense scrutiny to find out more.

@Argentov: We may also have gotten things all wrong. Maybe HE is aligned with a dynasty of humans, and Ilvah is part of that. Maybe her family got killed in battle against the Trolls, and she was the last and he had her tag along until he could find somewhere to drop her off?
When we found him chained, he claimed to have a plan, possible to slaughter those trolls or take revenge. It's all speculation at this point. I am almost certain there is more to it. Heck, maybe she's a quarter-dragon and his granddaughter.(in which case she likely doesn't even know).

Maybe one of you locals in Brevoy could try to remember about the Ice Trolls? Or maybe some people in this city know more? That Stone Circle with chained prisoners and Ice Trolls closing from all directions was rather...peculiar.
Maybe we could also further investigate what our scouting familiar saw...because those giant were not there when we arrived(i know it was the ice trolls, I mean they returned to hiding, not being right down with the prisoners)...in an attempt to better understand, I also looked at Ramita's original spoiler...it seems clear then, that the Trolls were already there and either expecting that someone would come for the prisoners, or noticing our approach. Argentov may have been unwilling to transform in front of the girl - and unwilling to leave her behind to the trolls.
*scratches head*
But then, how did they end up captured in the first place and who did the trolls hope to entrap in the middle of the wilderness?

I think bringing a child along with us is an absolutely terrible idea on many levels, IC and OOC. Whether she is human or dragon or something else. At least some of my reasons for thinking so do not apply to Erevenywg.

If she is to be your cohort, then none of this is my problem and you can do what you want.

I do wonder if them being chained up was Argentov's doing. Perhaps the trolls merely stumbled upon some ritual. Who knows.

Fey vs Child - For me, the main reason the fairy gets a pass the child don't is that the fairy is verbal and is able to vocalize issues or discontent. Also appears much more self sufficient then the child.

We are, as much as we can, trying to help both. Erevenywg can say if she wants/needs helps but Ilvah can't (or won't).

Furthermore the things we can do for "fairy randomly appearing in other world without all memories" is much more scarce then what we can do for "lost child".

Maybe there's more to the child - and trying to figure that out should be a priority in the whole helping thing :P

But it kinda all circles back to
1) we should be able to help Ilvah
2) Ilvah *should* be able to provide the information needed

vs

3) we probably can't fix Erevenywg's issues
4) we don't have a way to get the information needed

As a side note I've tried to gently poke the fairy for a response once or twice, but I can do so more overtly if you'd want. :)

On the topic of people we want to help we also have Svetlana and Akate Thrice-Damned. And probably more I can't think of :p

Those two are easier to deal with though I think. All they seem to need is
a) reasonable work
b) someone to socialize with

Svetlana is back in Brevoy, now working for Mung (the meat pie seller).
Here. She seems to be in debt.

Akate is going to be at the center of a bidding war between Alia and Durgan for her employment, as I recall.

Aye. And being an underling for Mung doesn't quite seem like her dream :p

For Akate I recall Illthir offered her singing lessons as well, we'll see if that pans out ^^

Akate's got options.

Kellek, you know you love us ;)

"Does your friends' new kingdom still need a Lord wizard?" Kellek asks Fergus.

Fighters -can- make their own swords(weapons). There are rules for that as well! At less of a cost than spells haha! The idea behind it would be, researching/creating a spell if he can't find one. Example- some obscure splat book spell, it may not be easily available in scroll form. Or, as you say, haven't been created. Then he would use those rules to create his own version of the spell. The other idea would be to take existing spells and apply minor changes. example- fireball, turns to Iceball. The same spell, just deals cold damage.

"HA! I can do that already!"

Aye, Akate will be fine, she got people trying to help her. And I feel Svetlana will be fine as well. Not in the Meat Pie Business, but I figure we'll want someone trustworthy running an inn in our capital or something. She'll have a hard time without Oleg for a while, but they did help us out well enough. If she does not want to, or cannot run the trading post any more, then we'll certainly be able to provide alternative options and return the favors they did us early on.

Regarding Ilvah: Aye, either she is more and we'll find out in time, or she is simply a deeply traumatized child and needs some time to recover. That kind of thing does not happen quickly.
She also clearly expressed that she wants to get away from here. Wether that means stay with us, or simply leave this place behind, we'll see.

I know you like making lists of why something is a terrible idea, but there are already plenty of kids in the stolen lands - if she turns out to be nothing more than a traumatized kid, placing her with the Benzens may be a option...that family owes us, is experienced with kids, and being with a set of foster siblings may do her good to find a new place in life.

If she turns out to be more than just a kid, we'll learn soon enough. She is willing to listen and to give input to questions. But Alia's approach so far was to not push her, not 'interrogate' trying to find out things.
And she seems to react well enough to that.
But it's not like Ilvah is in a completely delusional state and disconnected from reality, she is nonverbal, but still able to express herself in a way.

I understand that having a kid tag along in the wilderness as we go adventuring is not 'the way', and I am not sure how happy she would be staying alone in the capital, so yeah, getting to learn more about her is a need Alia understands, but IC, she is expecting to spend the next few months directing a build-up effort with little need to go out adventuring (as a player, I disagree with her expectation -), so there would be at least a month or two in a more relaxed and calm environment to get to learn more, sit down and try to get her to communicate more openly. I would prioritize that, and we can then talk about how to proceed from there.
(Maybe we decide Benzen is not the way, but Svetlana might take her on as a ward and she could help out in that inn? Plenty of options to place her in a safe environment that still allows her to be "near" us.)

But honestly, she WANTS to come with us. What would you do? Try and pay someone else to kidnap her and hold her in this place? Tell her she's on her own and watch her tag along 100 feet behind us on the road, with puppy eyes and freezing in the night? She is likely afraid of something, and wants to go. Even if we found out she has any relatives, we could probably drag her there screaming and crying, and she'd try to run away as soon as given a chance, then perish in the wilderness as she tries to find us.

You think it is a terrible idea, and your opinion matters.
You surely stated that for a reason. And I want to listen.
It's like telling me that you wouldn't eat that sandwich if you were me, but then tell me to go on ahead, it's mine.
If you noticed rat poison in the ingredients, then sure, I want to hear about that.

EDIT: we had some more text here, but not all of it seems relevant. Moved to PM.

on a slightly different topic. Anyone have an issue with Fergus trying to mind read the fey? I mean, what could go wrong? *laughs in clear distress*

@Fergus: Alia does not like the Fey, but she does not like that kind of magic being used near her. If you casually use it on others, she can't be sure if you ever use it on her.
So even if she dislikes the Fey, she'd not like to see you do that.

But, happy news, Alia avoids the Fey when possible, so the chance she's nearby are very low. Just maybe don't point out how you learned anything that you do learn :)

Okay, if you actually want to know my reasons, I will list them. It is not that I enjoy this exercise, but that you have asked.

I rooted for Deanarys because she had dragons, and dragons are awesome.

I also love the 3pp class dragon rider. Because having a dragon mount is awesome.

But, if everyone liked the same thing, the world would be a boring place. hahah. Imagine a world of DnD where everyone is a fighter that is a rough and grisled faced middle-aged straight white man with a two handed sword and mysterious and or tragic and or vengeful backstory.

Can someone point me to the page(s) where they fey was picked up? When did she join the group?

At work but the easiest way would be to tag her icon back to her character page, go to her oldest post and work a little back from there.

One in character reason that fergus wouldn't put thoughts in your head, he has 0 enchantment magic. It's an opposition school! Just take a look at his spell book. Haha.

But the downside is spellcasting is easily noticed. Unless you are a bard or have a prestige class. So mind magic isn't something that is easy to accomplish. Unless you have silent spell and invisibility.

But what is the difference between suggesting a course of action via magic, and bluffing them into thinking it's a good course of action?

But mind magic is not quite that powerful. As detect magic would reveal the ongoing charm effect. It's a lot harder to achieve puppet mastery without hitting all important people than saying "obey or dragon smite thee"

She wouldn't know her surface thoughts are being read. She wouldn't be affected by it at all, save we can better help her if it works.

That aside, Fergus is trying to get a specific spell for this purpose. If I can't find it, and we still may need it, I'll take it next level up. Detect anxieties would be much less invasive, and potentially help the situation.

Zokon doesn't like the idea of having a child along.

If we can talk to Ilvah we can find out a solution for her, what we shall be doing will not be safe for a while, I imagine all sorts of stuff happening while we are trying to get established.

@Zokon: Yeah, OOC I expect plenty of trouble as well, or it would be a very boring AP. But IC, we took out the Stag Lord, we are about to receive backing, and are supposed to start building a nation. It seems like 'smooth sailing' for a while. If we explore some additional hexes or do minor expeditions, there is no need for a kid to tag along. But IC Alia does not expect trouble in the near future, and with others more suited to oversee construction projects, beliefs she will have some time to get Ilvah to open up and find her a place to stay. I do sincerely hope that we finally have some downtime, also so she can get some crafting projects done.
So aye, I already agreed that if she is human she will be given a safe spot rather than tag along, but Alia would prefer that safe spot be in Avalon all the same.

@Fergus: One distinction I see is that with bluffing people, they can still doubt it when presented with counter-points/facts by others. If you affect their mind to make it seem reasonable, that will be harder. Simply "because magic" - yeah, with a "-20" modifier I could tell impossible lies.
And with a proper build, still succeed on that bluff. But just because I convince the king that he is actually my long-lost mother does not mean I'll automatically be promoted princess and inherit the kingdom. That is table variance, certainly, but in my experience magic means are 'harder' to restrain than mundane ones. While opposition schools can be overcome, it does help a bit that you have no enchantment stuff. But all mind-stuff, even just the divination ones, are scary to me :)
Also don't get me wrong, I do understand you are trying to help with this situation. I am mostly just asking you for a bit of patience to let me try and talk with her without magic involved (and she would notice if she makes the save...or because you need to ask follow-up questions to get more details. If you ask about her home and she thinks of a cottage near a wood, that won't give you much to work with unless you continue the line of questioning) - hence why I attempted to redirect to our Fey Guest for more investigative measures if you want to be active right now :)

Re dragons and their role in pathfinder - You know they've been tools of conquerors here as well. How did Brevoy come to pass now again :p

Re ooc worst case - For me I think it's Stroon showing up just as we've got things barely together with a sobbing pair of people claiming to be Ilvah's parents. And us not actually knowing if we're kidnappers or not...

Re take it slow - Isn't this the plan we've been running with? My issue is that we will soon be leaving the area with decent communication with where her family would be and heading out into nowhere.

*If* we are to investigate her family it is basically now or never. And now seems much better then never.

Re invasive divinations - This is why we asked nicely (some of us at least >.>) and started with something not terrible. Note that the Next of Kin spell works off the targets perception - and includes relation. If their family would be an abusive hellhole that should be noticeable :p

I know about Dragons being tools here as well, which is why I specifically pointed out that was not the idea.

@Worst Case: And you think if Stroon wants to ruin our day he won't find something more damaging than that to do? We took good care of the girl after saving her and she was non-verbal, hardly a kidnapping accusation that would stand.

@Take Slow: Yeah, we did, because nobody really cared about potential dangers from her before we arrived at the local lords court, where we seated her near him. Just now all of a sudden as we prepare to leave, we seem to be in a hurry.
She stated she wants to come with us, so I see that as more time. If she does not WANT to stay, we will have to force her to remain behind in some way, with someone she does not want to stay with.

I did ask what questions seem important, what I should try to cover when trying to talk with her, so far nobody chimed in.

@invasive divinations: Aye, you asked nicely, and I appreciate that. I see that the party consensus seems to be that this absolutely must be resolved while we are still in Brunderton, and cannot wait until later. So yeah, I'll have that talk with her as soon as possible.
If I am unsuccessful, you can do what you must. I disagree that there is such urgency and it needs to be handled right away, but I have no justification to decide that alone.
She trusts me and I try to protect her to the best of my knowledge, but I will not try and overrule the whole party on that.
So just let me have one more chance to talk with her, at the very least.

Re worst case - I'm sure he can find more stuff, but this is really served up on a platter as it is now. If we actually know for sure we are helping it will be much easier to defend against it then if we have no idea.

Re take slow - Am personally mostly worried about "take away child" rather then "child will swallow other NPC whole". So yes, now that we are looking to leave the area where "take away child" could easily be undone, time is running out.

Re questions - What we need/want to know is "what happened to you" and "what happened to your parents". Things that may, one way or the other, be traumatic to talk about. But they are also the things we need to plot a reasonable course for her future (with or without us).

Re invasive divinations - If Alia can play twenty questions and figure this out that would be awesome. But ... I'm not sure it can be done gently. I don't think poking and prodding with words will be more humane then magic poking. (What if she did love her parents and they were eaten by trolls? How fun is it to hear 5 version of "did they beat you??" before we can be sure that isn't the issue :/)

Re chances - Yeah. Of course :)

@ ALia- That is true, such things will vary from table to table. But, In my experience it has proven much more feasible to forge documents, and use skills such as bluff to convince others than rely on magic.

Magic can fail, and often times, if magic fails, it is quite clear that you are in fact, a threat. While even if you fail a bluff check, they usually just end up disagreeing, now, if you fail a bluff check about being the son/daughter of a king with potential papers and other things, that may cause an issue. But you likely wouldn't.

And explain to me how a mind spell that convinces the king you are their son/daughter automatically has them make you a prince/princess? Suggestion is also temporary. Once it wears off, the NPC/character would be like "wait, no belay that!"

a simple rule I use as a GM, unless its dominate, the character still acts as they always would. Suggestion or charm like spells merely "insert" an addendum to them. An evil king that has few friends and is suspicious of even them? Charm person isn't going to get you much. While a kind king that is generous to those he sees as true friends? Charm person could get you a lot.

I wish there was a spell that let one dive into anothers thoughts. At least then we could find the answers without making the poor girl think of them.

@GM: Could you perhaps have time for a meeting on discord or something similar in the near future? I think this would best be played out dynamically, see how she reacts and proceed based on her feedback, see where it goes.

@ilthir: And even if Ilvah claims that her parents are dead, he could still present a couple claiming she is theirs. Or show up without parents and claim that we killed them to abduct her for our bondage dungeon.

@take slow: she is not a small kid. Heck, look at what the Benzen kids her age were up to. She is a young adult, not a toddler. We are not taking away a child, if she wishes to leave Brevoy and head to Avalon, that should be within her right. We can talk about the exact age when medieval kids get to have a right to make their own decisions, but since Zokons daddy just tried to force him into an arranged marriage...

@humane: poking and prodding with words gives her an option to refuse, to break down and cry, to be angry and shout, to decide what she tells.
Poking with magic rips the answers from her head, not caring what she wants, not giving her an option to do anything but realize in horror that she is being violated.
That, plus unless you use advanced magics, she needs to actually think about it, since you only get the surface stuff. So to get the full picture, you'll need to take what you learned and ask in more detail, showing her what you are doing.

@Fergus: Aye, one would assume there would be something like "Calm Emotions" for Trauma Teams. I know it's enchantment and I just dissed mind-affecting, but something that simply suppresses abnormal mental states for the duration would seem really helpful.

I am just afraid she may be a normal girl looking to start a new life abroad after some trauma, then has to go through that. I mean, she did seem rather terrified when Ilthir approached her and explained. Maybe she's afraid she has to go to some abusive uncle or something.
Anyway, at beginning of post I asked GM if he would be ok with a short live session with some medium to try and resolve this.

Thank you all for allowing me one chance to try and talk things over with her before forcing her to comply.

@Dive into thoughts: Well, there are...but beyond our reach. Dream/Dream Council can work to enter a dreamscape, so basically meet in their subconsciousness. It can...be interpreted that way.
(I like the Dimension of Dreams)

Re plot - Yes. But we'll actually *know* if it is a ruse or not. Makes it much easier to determine which set of gloves to use :p

Re small - She was introduced as "bedraggled little girl". So far I only think we have had time to try and work on that first bit.

Re magic - Discern Next of Kin does not require they to think of it, though it is indeed a form of mind reading. It also includes relationship status with the next of kin which makes it much more handy (and only triggers on people they believe to be alive).

Which is why it seemed like a really good poking stick to use. Much better then traumatize her and and possibly desecrate the memory of her family. In my opinion of course :)

plot: if it comes from stroon, it is a ruse. If his whole plot is to make us say sorry to her real parents who will be happy to find she was well cared for, then he failed as evil mastermind.

magic: but discern next of kin tells us nothing about what happened or how she ended up there. Namely the kind of questions people wanted answered with more invasive mind reading.
Just knowing about her family status will not help us decide what to do. Knowing her parents are alive to the best of her knowledge is no basis for returning her there, when maybe she never lived with them for a single day. She may also have been told completely wrong information.
I mean, I may be wrong, but I heavily doubt she has a happy family waiting for her nearby if she reacted like she did.

@Small: She should be around 13.
Here we were told to add 100 lbs to encumbrance, which is just about the healthy weight for a teenage girl around 13. She was not described as particulary overweight, I rather had the impression she was on the lower end of the scale.
But unless her looks don't match up with her weight, which would scream non-human, then she should seem about 13 years of age.
EDIT: Later GM called it as 75, which puts her closer to 11 years of age.

@Poking stick: I concur - out of the magical options it's a relatively tame one, but you did explain to her and it seemed to terrify her regardless. I planned on asking her about that. Mainly learn if she is terrified of magic, or of us learning about her family.
She may simply be scared we'll leave her behind, or she may be scared because magic. *shrug* Once i know, we can decide how to proceed.

plot - I mean he'd be a pretty bad evil mastermind if he didn't "expose" the heinous crime we may or may not be committing.

spell - I'm just going to post what the spell does.

You can scan the thoughts of one individual and learn the names and locations of the target’s living relatives, as well as the attitude of the target toward those relatives (and vice versa). You learn about one relative per round you concentrate on the target. For example, you might learn the target’s father’s name, that the father lives on a nearby farm, and that the target and his father don’t get along. Since this spell reads the target’s mind, you can learn only what the target knows or believes.

And yeah if she has living next of kin without a horrible relationship with justifying taking anywhere else is really really sketchy. So if it did ping any we would know what we should do.

smallness - That's small enough to be considered somewhat little, at the very least, even in pathfinder. Perhaps not in the real age its based on - but pathfinder is consistently less harsh then that.

poking - Aye. Didn't quite expect such a reaction but. Maybe we'll find out why when you use the verbal poking stick instead :p

just to note, she seemed to be frightened when she started casting. Which makes me think its magic in general, at least, magic directed at her, that frightens her.

Fairly sure she ditched Illthir as soon as she had explained what was about to happen, not giving the skald a chance to even start her magics. (Let me know if that's a faulty assumption though)

plot: Oh, if that's the best he can find, then we can count ourselves lucky for his sloppy work.

@spell: I know what it does, but it operates on what she thinks to be true. She may believe her parents are dead if there was a troll raid. That does not mean they are. Thats why i meant it will only help so much.

That said, I did ask her if she wanted to come to Avalon or stay here, with someone else. If she was aware of any kin with a non-horrible relationship, it would have made sense for her to at least consider her options. I do think it would be useful to know for certain, but I don't have high hopes she has acceptable options around here.

Smallness: Meh, I played younger characters. But yes, I was focused on the 13, rather than the 11. What I was getting as is that at that age, she would likely work regularily, and await her eventual marriage to someone. Her "kid" years are over, and she's likely expected to pull her weight. At that age, she may also already be learning a trade or training for a class.
(Starting ages for human are 16-19 for intuitive, 16-21 for self-thought, and 17-27 for trained. While some youngsters may be prodigy, learning in one year what others learn in 6, it is a lot more likely that they started training a year or two earlier than the others.)
I concede that she is "smallish", but in a medieval society, she is definitely not a 'kid' any more that gets to play all day and does not understand hardships.

So I've only had time to skim but the general theme seems to be looking into Ilvah's background while the party is in the vicinity of the Gronzi Forest. Zokon would know that there are a number of small outposts and hamlets in and around the forest were information might be sought. Correct?

Sounds about right.

Roger that. I'll try and catch up tonight after work in about four hours.

I wasn't suspicious of Erevenywg, more curious. Now, I'm more suspicious haha.

Hehe, welcome to my world, Fergus :)
I know we also need to learn more about Ilvah, but inversed Gwynevere needs some attention too before her buddy tolecnat shows up proclaiming a wild hunt to cleanse-purge the lands of civilizatory influences.

Re who where what - I *think* Alia considered it but it might have been under the assumption that we had a bit more time. That's the only one I can remember at least :p

My Diplomacy/Gather Information was directed at Ilvah - as such it seemed more sensible to remain in Brunderton and get some actual Crafting done over the time you investigate the surrounding villages and areas.

But even so, I would probably join up again after we are told about the invitation by the Lord-Mayor, plus Alia's Diplomacy-Attempts were a total of 9 days, so after that, she'd probably give up trying to learn more from Ilvah, and would probably have rejoined the main group at that time(even before the Agents from Restov found us).

If Alia remains in Brunterton (presumably with Ilvah), she would run into the Lord Mayor's messengers before they find the rest of the party in the woods.

Ilvah for her part does not reveal much--instead she changes the topic of discussion when ever things veer too close to her own past. "But what of you, and your past?"

SHE TALKS!!!!!

...only to taunt us in the ooc channel ...

:P

---

I'll get an IC post up later tonight. Sorry for the slowness!

If I do get her to say that, I see that as a win :P

Albeit her complete reluctance to even respond to some yes/no questions about her past does raise suspicion.

That said - "If you wish to know something, go ahead and ask. I won't promise I'll answer everything, but I will try." :P

That said, yeah, I should probably get the proper background online one of these days...

Merry christmas and happy holidays on you all :)

Merry Christmas! :)