Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

It is quite possible to have story where they come out looking better and it does not look like an insult.
Zokon is in love with Alia and flat-out refuses; Stroon threatens to destroy Zokon; Pavetta begs him to stay his hand out of pity.
There is maybe some slight risk there, but far far less than in mocking him.
But even so, leaving the situation alone is probably the better idea.

And yes, Durgan actually is afraid of Stroon, and sees no reason to deny it. Only a fool would not be.

Yes not poking the angry wizard is certainly the smartest thing. Probably :p

unless you poke him really hard, with a sharp sword, and he stops moving. Then the problem is solved.

Seems he was just looking for an excuse, he took a veiled comment about Alia and turned it into an insult to his sister and then decided it was something to get revenge for? Evil trope villain much..

An arrow to the head will cure his condition either way..

Slap a collar of obedience on him, Feeblemind him, Baleful Polymorph into a Chihuahua, Bestow Curse(custom curse - locks the other permanent effects until curse is removed - so the Baleful cannot be undone before remove curse is successfully cast).
Then tell his sister she has a new puppy to take care of but her brother went missing.

(Yes, I know that could be undone and he'd be even more pissed, but I'm petty like that :P)

So I take it they are not willing to consider a deal with Zokon on terms not dictated by them?

Stroon says he is pissed, and both Medyed and Santyev are cowed into submission and not willing to consider an alliance that is not based on the wizards marriage suggestion?

In that case, I think we seriously dodged a bullet here. If the local lords are being bullied to the point that they are incapable of making decisions for themselves, I doubt he would have conducted himself differently if he took the offer and came to Avalon with us.

So there's that. He may be a thorn in our side further along, but I am not 'afraid' of him. Call me a fool, but Alia is more afraid of the Fey(and still uncomfortable about our tag-along one). They are capricious and random.
This wizard is calculating - angry and with a short fuse, but not to the point he forgets about self-preservation or the advancement of his interests. I think we can keep him in check by making sure whatever attempt he makes will turn out to be too costly, or dangerous for him.

He may settle for indirect revenge and we may still have to deal with him then - but I don't think he will stoop so low as to lay in wait and ambush us on our way back like a common highwayman or similar. (Doesn't seem his style).

(I also don't think the GM wants to outright end the campaign just because we did not agree to a marriage - getting hit by a set of fireballs and a band of mercenaries seems a possible "rocks fall, everybody dies" option, but seems undue punishment for the simple fact that we wanted to get the blessing of Zokons parents rather than already having performed a ceremony(which would have invalidated this whole proposal without any fault on our part))

Stroon is the dragon terrorizing the village yeah - even trying to kidnap princess Zokon :p

Yeah, talking about Dragons - or more specifically cute Dragon kids...what do we do with our Silver Dragon Wyrmling?
Take her back to Avalon with us? Try and worry about the Ice Trolls? (Or is that Stroons problem rather than ours) Make another attempt to find Argentov?

I mean, no proof at all there that she really IS what she is, but imagine Ilvah really IS a young silver Dragon, and Zokon and I adopt her as legal guardians(and legitimize her). Mengkare would have nothing on her -

(how are we matching up in the timeline? I think Terendelev is still alive currently? I mean, if nobody plays WotR then she remains alive, right? Might lead to good relations with Mendev...)

Argentov said he didn't know the girl. I imagine silver dragons are rare enough that he would know of the others of his kind in the area, but I could be wrong.

If she actually is a dragon (which I doubt but it is possible), returning her to her own kind would be a priority.

I for one would want nothing to do with raising a dragon. Better to not meddle in their affairs, and have them not meddle in ours.

Zokon and Alia can do what they want.

Princess?

Aye, but chances are Argentov and the girl were not there by chance. He may or may not know her - or she may even be his offspring. (Silvers more often breed when they are younger).

Also it depends on the lore used. Forgotten Realm Silver Dragons often spend long periods among non-dragons as they mature, often forming bonds with humans or elves that last over generations.

And the Shadowrun-mantra of "Never deal with a Dragon" is nice, but having one of the positively "color-coded" dragons nesting in our lands may be a boon.
If anything, she will be too young to play a significant role during the time of our campaign, but I think it would be a nice thematic aspect to have her stick around for a while before eventually trusting us enough to show her true nature, then find a lair and basically become a prominent citizen of our fledgling kingdom :)

(That is, I would much prefer a Silver Dragon taking up residence compared to, say, Stroon.)

I've never played Shadowrun, but it sounds like a good mantra to me. The history of Brevoy is of dragons or dragon-masters meddling in politics and it ending badly. Much like Westeros.

I hope she is not a dragon, but if she is, we'll have to discuss our options.

Well, in Shadowrun they are essentially the puppet masters and you NEVER want to be a pawn in any play important enough for their attention.
So it totally is a good mantra for that setting.

@Dragons and Dragon-Masters: I understand that from a Lore-Perspective they may not be popular in Brevoy, but that just adds more credit to the fact Argentov tried to hide his identity and/or safeguard her.

Besides, the rest of the World(Golerion, Middle Earth, Westeros or real life) is full with humans(and humanoids) meddling in politics and most of it ending badly. So I'm not really sure if Dragons are to blame. It may just be a politics thing :)

@Options: Yeah, someone suggested me and Zokon should quickly adopt someone to secure inheritance on our side of the border. Of course, we would not "adopt the mystery child we found in the wilderness we know nothing about" - that is the Domain of Disney. But if she IS what I suspect, it would still be a fun plot twist - and a reason to NOT take out Zokon.
(since under heritage law as suggested, a Male Heir would take precedence over Ilvah - but if Zokon is killed beforehand, they'll have an Elf from Kyonin act as Regent for a Dragon that is set to be Queen. They will definitely WANT Zokon to have kids before considering offing him...as said, only a fun "what if" suggestion)

I think adopting her is an incredibly bad idea and will be happy to go into the reasons why if it turns out she is a dragon.

Aah good ol Shadowrun, where the Dragons are ancient (Thousands of years old) and completely alien, thus never deal with them as their plots span millennia and you do not understand their motivations.

How can we tell if she/they are dragons? Or do we just wait to see what happens?

I re-iterate, it was a fun "what if" scenario. Not a serious suggestion(as stated, we are not doing a Disney tour).

If you would like to go into reasons as a thought experiment, feel free to do so.
It could be fun to provide a counter-list of points of why it would be awesome instead, but really only one point is needed:

* It may be an incredibly bad idea to adopt a Dragon, but it would be awesome regardless to have a dynastic friendship with a good-aligned Dragon!

(But again, this is a purely speculative scenario for fun. There is no need to convince anybody otherwise at this point)

@Zokon: That is effectively why I brought it up. Do we disregard Argentov and the Ice Trolls? Try to see if Eldiocesan found out more? Do we bring Ilvah along back to Avalon?
We may be done here and at this locale, but there are a few open plot point left in the region - some of which we can opt to ignore for now(not our business - we reported the Ice Trolls and local authorities can decide what to do with that information) - but others that may be more practical to tackle now - my wishful thinking tells me Ilvah is a young Silver Dragon doing her "bonding years" to humanoids, but as pointed out, she could be anything from an ice witch to an unseelie feychild. If we do wish to find out more and/or find her parents and/or guardians it may be prudent to do so now that we are already in the region.
Or we just let her come with us to Avalon! I'm vetoing dropping her off someplace.

I'm all for raising a dragon. That's a powerful ally.

Also, shadowrun dragon plans are totally comprehensible, it's just most shadowrunners balk at the fact they are a minor expendable pawn in them.

Again, if it turns out she actually is a dragon, I will happily go into the reasons why I think raising her in Avalon is a very bad idea (not even adopting her as an heir, just raising her at all).

If she is a dragon, then hopefully we can find her parents, or persuade Argentov to raise her. I am most hopeful that she is not a dragon.

baaahhhh. Whats another few problems on our plate at this point?

If a kingdom takes no risk, it won't grow.

Jokes aside, I could see both sides of the coin. Though, I'm more inclined to take the risks, given proper precautions and conditions are met.

Aye, as said, purely theoretical now, and for fun, since we have no idea who she is. (although with "Argentov Lind" providing clues for an Adult, I like the idea that "Ilvah" is simply the phonetic of /ˈsɪlvə/ with the S dropped. so..."'ilver" or a childlike clue.)

But if true I'd also vote to take the risks despite seeing how it can be a bad idea. In all my years of Pathfinder I experienced a LOT of stuff, but I never once had a chance to have a very young dragoness as a ward. Simply getting to play that out, and with such an awesome GM, would be too good to pass up.

If we decide that it's too much of a liability on the Kingdom to 'include' her, I would probably still hide her in the forest. (We can certainly work something out there OOC - not saying I'd go against the will of the party - but I think I am not the only one excited by the prospect(despite it possibly being a bad idea)).

So I take it they are not willing to consider a deal with Zokon on terms not dictated by them?

Zokon!? That pup who lived with his mom?

Stroon says he is pissed, and both Medyed and Santyev are cowed into submission and not willing to consider an alliance that is not based on the wizards marriage suggestion?

That last bit is an assumption, and Medvyed is kinda stuck in the middle here without easy aid. That said a teleporting wizard is not really anyone to sneeze at.

So there's that. He may be a thorn in our side further along....

GM whistles. Looks at shoes. Looks at sky.

He may settle for indirect revenge and we may still have to deal with him then - but I don't think he will stoop so low as to lay in wait and ambush us on our way back like a common highwayman or similar. (Doesn't seem his style).

There are two obvious routes/targets. Zokon the pup, or Tengar, his father who helped arrange the marriage. While Stroon can obviously teleport about, Zokon will probably be spending his time far away in Avalon, while Tengar lives practically next door. ;)

Really hoping you are wrong, Alia (would not want her to be a dragon for both IC and OOC reasons), but now I fear you are right. Good observation on the name.

so, given that hint from GM - Zokon, do you want to invite your father to live in some cottage(of similar size and importance to what was granted your mother)?

And what about Ilvah? Stoneclimb is about as 'civilized' as it gets in the Gronzi region if that is a criteria for a "safe drop-off point".

Also remember, before you go to Avalon, you are due back in Restov for a meeting of the New Lords of the Formerly Stolen Land at the behest of the Lord Mayor and his fellow city nobles to hammer out the details of new kingdoms to the south Brevoy.

There will be wine and cheese, trade talks, you can speak with your some of your fellow colonists, set up diplomatic ties, etc....

No drop-off unless she clearly shows she WANTS to leave.
Otherwise Ilvah is coming along! (I like her and so does Alia!)

We had Erevenywg tag along with plenty of occasions to drop her off, and the Fey is still there - (OOC i like her, but IC Alia would have left her 2 trees over from where we first encountered her)

Perhaps we should at least make a token effort at finding her parents.

I can concur with that - and why i brought it up, really, because IC we know very little about her.
So I am in favor of a token effort, or at least leaving a message for Argentov(even if he claims he does not know her).

I just don't want to leave her behind unless a.: we find her legal guardian or b.: she expresses a desire to leave us - assuming she could be a traumatized girl and no more she's definitely not in a state where you drop her in a safe place and wish her best of luck. I believe after we return to Avalon from Restov we may finally get the first down-time in the campaign, which should allow some crafting AND give her an opportunity to open up more. Here's hoping.

Mm yeah I think taking the child away without checking for parents is more "kidnapping" then "helping" :p

So that's probably good to do. I wonder if the traveling troupe has heard anything? Or if the good lord of the city might have some records we could look into.

@Zokon: He only took you aside, I think he doesn't want to talk with me, and I don't want to impose on him.

Architects, construction workers, and raw materials - maybe a few shipments of stone - would go a long way.
For all further trade and support we may receive, we will want to make a road that is more than a wilderness path, include rest stops along the road for travellers, couriers, with small guard stations to keep the immediatey vicinity of the roads safe.

We'll need people qualified to find decent building spots and supervise untrained laborours into constructing these roadside stations - and lots of stone and workforce to create actual roads/highway.

I know it is abstracted as BP's in the kingdom building, but essentially asking for help to build a good road back to Brevoy seems like a decent first step(and also show that you wish to remain connected with them, rather than, say, building a road to Pitax or Mivon)
(I know it MAY be easier to receive initial shipments by boat, but we'd have to carefully check the rivers before, and a proper "road" would get us started on building other stuff like farms while speeding our own travel times along the route.

As well, I don't think the Charter has been formally executed with Zokon named as Ruler. There is still the possibility for someone in Restov to say they are not comfortable with something or other.

A letter of support from Lord Medvyed to the leadership of Restov might go a long way to ensuring we actually do get the Charter.

(I know it MAY be easier to receive initial shipments by boat, but we'd have to carefully check the rivers before, and a proper "road" would get us started on building other stuff like farms while speeding our own travel times along the route.

There are two waterfalls along the Strike River that do not allow it to be used for continuous travel.

Good thoughts

Alia of the Blade wrote:

(I know it MAY be easier to receive initial shipments by boat, but we'd have to carefully check the rivers before, and a proper "road" would get us started on building other stuff like farms while speeding our own travel times along the route.

There are two waterfalls along the Strike River that do not allow it to be used for continuous travel.

Aye, that's why I said MAY.

(Matter of fact, despite roads being available, Iron Ore from the mountains was floated down the river towards my birth town, and 'lowered' down at some sections with cranes because doing that was still more efficient using the river than to transport it with animal-drawn carts)

Durgan does plan to improve the Shrike River to make it navigable - perhaps with canals to bypass the rapids.

If that would help get construction material to our capital, then perhaps the canals could be a project done sooner rather than later. The Move Earth spell would be amazingly useful for such a project but is beyond our capabilities at this point. Still, we could dig a canal the hard way. And it could be done with many castings of Expeditious Excavation.

There are a few different ways to use the river as is, like Alia suggests, while still minimizing transfers (e.g. loading/unloading, which are generally very expensive). For example, having wagons on the barges, or using something like a boat launch to drag the fully-loaded barges out of and back into the river.

We might be able to hold off on bringing large amounts of stone to the capital in the near term - either finding good stone locally, or else using timber for the first buildings.

A bunch of river locks seems like it might be good in the future?

But just making sure the road it safe and existing is probably cheapest/easiest.

Quarrying our own stone somewhere nearby would be immensely useful as well.

Aye, all that, but remember that Kingdom Building is somewhat 'abstracted' - so getting labor, specialists, and material would serve to explain the sudden influx of BP's to use.

Saying we are running our own Quarry is a nice flavorful thing to do, but will not help us until we actually spend the BP to build one, and then only provide the benefits listed - anything beyond that is fluff.
(Same with actually prepping fields - for example, I think there is a mechanic for claiming river hexes to make them work as roads - using extra magic to help with that is flavorful, but likely won't bypass the mechanical necessities involved.)

So yeah, unless we need hills or mountains for a Quarry locally, I fully support sourcing our own stuff and getting autark and independent so nobody can leverage our needs against us.

But I was mostly trying to express thing in a way that "explains" how the good lord can give us 100 BP's (or whatever seeems right) that we can use for speedy construction of some projects - and getting stuff delivered that we do not have immediate access to ourselves seemed sensible.
(Plus it would explain why we can speedily get a headstart on things early on, like reconstructing the castle or something, then "slow down" as we depend on our own influx of BP from Taxes and stuff, as we run out of materials shipped and the specialists return home.(Some of the untrained laborers can stay and become new citizens).

Durgan, obviously, supports trade more than autarky.

Comparative advantage, economics 101, and all that. He is a priest of Abadar after all.

But we will have different realms where we can do as we wish.

Oh, Abadar is a good reason.
But dependency on foreign goods is also a diplomatic weakness.
I meant autarky simply as self-sufficiency - not as refusing trade, but rather not depending on it for our needs.
If we don't grow enough grain to feed our population, then we WILL have to pay inflated prices or make concessions no matter who supplies us.

Being theoretically able to do without outside supply does not mean you don't USE outside supply, simply that they cannot dictate terms.

I am elaborating on that because I believe there is also an economic model based on autarky that effectively means "closed economy", but my intent is simply economic independence.

Dependance on outside trade is only weakness if those you trade with do not depend on you.

That said, for several years, we likely WILL be weak, whether we are dependent on trade or not.

Ya.. so we need some help to start and i'll try and focus on them getting us some trade maybe even have a Lordly supervisor over it all.. some Santyev fellow maybe..

I am reasonably confident that competition between our neighbors will ensure we are not at a great disadvantage in trade. If we need a particular good that we cannot readily produce in Avalon, there are numerous realms within Brevoy to trade with, as well as the River Kingdoms. They'll compete with each other to make a deal.

It may be that we need some resources that just are not present in our lands. I'm okay with that.

RPGGGM wrote:

Alia of the Blade wrote:

(I know it MAY be easier to receive initial shipments by boat, but we'd have to carefully check the rivers before, and a proper "road" would get us started on building other stuff like farms while speeding our own travel times along the route.

There are two waterfalls along the Strike River that do not allow it to be used for continuous travel.

Aye, that's why I said MAY.

Just verifying your suppositions, as Alia would know for certain having seen them.

Aye, I had some waterfalls in the back of my mind, thanks for confirming :)

@Trade: Since we are a new player, NOBODY will depend on us to begin with. Reaching a level where neighbours depend on our trade will take quite some while, and time(to show that we are reliable and persistent, and not a temporary power structure).

@Competition between Neighbours: Great if possible. I was under the impression that we were expected to make our deals with Brevoy and Restov, to have "exclusive" trade deals with them, and not let e.g. Pitax undercut them. But trades your domain, so I'll trust you to set it up in a good way.

Regardless, I would prefer if we can support ourselves with the bare essentials sooner rather than later, for all kinds of reasons - not only political in nature. (say there's a draught next year that heavily reduces harvest gains in the region and our neighbours barely have enough to feed their people - nobody will export much to us, not even at a high price...with the draught we would also have too little, but at least not mass starvation.)

I am here, and following the situation.
But the good lord completely ignored me before when I presented myself(or tried to) so I believe he is hardly interested in my input on the matter.
In fact, it would seem any action on my part may remind him of the Stroon dilemma and be detrimental to our success. So I'm keeping a low profile. maybe head backstage with Esme or something so I'm out of view, and bear the hatred of the locals with as much dignity as I can muster.

I thought Zokon and Balzeros had it well in hand. I know I can chime in too much sometimes, so was hanging back, but would have weighed in if asked to.

@GM - would Durgan expect there to be representatives of House Lodovka or House Garess at the shindig in Restov?

If not, he would probably write letters. I would rather not have an extended side quest to go to those lands (unless it could be largely handwaved in downtime).

I am here, and following the situation.

But the good lord completely ignored me before when I presented myself(or tried to) so I believe he is hardly interested in my input on the matter.

Women folk. Almost as bad as foreigners telling us what to do. And foreign women folk are doubly bad! thinks the Lord of a Great Brevic House.

Esme has some closet space off the main hall, and her big traveling players' cart in a barn connected to the castle's servants' quarters.

@GM - would Durgan expect there to be representatives of House Lodovka or House Garess at the shindig in Restov?

There should be a number of influential and interested parties there including a few representing the Great Houses.

If not, he would probably write letters. I would rather not have an extended side quest to go to those lands (unless it could be largely handwaved in downtime).

The handwaving commences later tonight, so finalize what you want to do with little Ilvah, your travel plans (the party has horses back up the river in the dwarf/human town Brunderton, etc....

Yeah, woman folk. So good there's just man here, now.
(prepares Disguise Self)

Ilvah - check and see if the locals keep any records? Leave a description of the child (and perhaps a small sum to finance letters/couriers) and take her with us if we don't find anything. Work on speech therapy :p

Handvavium - probably just a few gather information rolls on the way there to try and catch up on news/see if there's rumours about us. Maybe bluff to correct them :p

We need to be getting to Restov, right? To get this whole thing formalized? I say we start heading there!