Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

It is mathematically possible she would not even ping faintly, but that seems very constructed - as in, purposefully evade the mechanism of detect evil.

Possible, but cruel.
(And yeah, I assumed her to be 'young' regardless of class levels, which would have reduced that base strength, but I may very well be wrong on that).

The lore has her as "small for her age". And yes detect magic is "rulesy" and one of the many many many reasons I personally dislike the alignment system. Another reason is the Batman Question: Is Batman LG or CG? Discuss.

For the record, my favorite alignment system is the 2nd Ed. World of Darkness's Nature/Demeanor system.

In case you missed it because of the page change:

Fergus and Illthir can open Durgan's spoiler on the gameplay page.

Which part of Batman does the "G" come from? :p

evil thoughts would not detect evil, it requires evil intentions

I think luring some of us to our death, which does seem very planned, does qualify as evil intentions. And the fact she very much wanted to avoid being mind-probed previously suggests that this was not a spur-of-the-moment thing and she was very much planning on doing some murdering in the near future at that time already.

Batman is a vigilante. While he does follow a personal code, he does not follow the codified law. In my book he is CG. But I see how there's plenty interpretations.

For what it's worth, I liked the Nature/Demeanor system as well.

Theres a full several pages devoted to defining alignments in PF.

located here.

This is how one should determine a characters alignment in PF.

in PF, batman is, imo based on the above link, neutral good to maybe true neutral. Depending on what series you are reading/watching. From most of what I've seen/read, I feel batman wants to believe in the law, and wants to respect it, but thinks it isn't functioning properly at the time so he needs to do something about it.

he goes about it in a chaotic way.

I consider Batman to be lawful neutral, myself. Dedicated to the law, even if he does make an exception of his vigilantism.

In my homebrew PF game, we did away with alignment in favor of the Loyalties system.

Now, Ilvah. Yes, there will be a discussion later. Serena suspected her all along, though the fact that she is a werewolf was a bit of a surprise.

Ruthlessly enforcing the law while viewing oneself above it - instead opting for a personal code - seems very L to me. And the random proportion of the punishment (stole some money? Here's a broken spine! murdered hundreds? I'll just tie you up and surely you'll learn!) makes me feel it is more E then N or G.

But yeah lots and lots of lore on that guy, so one can really pick and choose. Even fictional characters are too nuanced for this 9 slot system :p

in a minor agreement with serena, if I had to pick lawful or chaotic for batman, I would err on lawful. But I would rather say he is flexible enough to be neutral.

You also must define which batman you are discussing. You can't really say "batman" as a catch all, since batman has had many many many different appearances in many different timelines.

I've also never seen an encounter with someone where batman didn't beat them up before tying them up. Since usually they fight back. I would never accept an evil alignment for the bat. Especially in PF.

"Good: Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil: Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master."

Neutral: Neutral People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent, but may lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others."

Would killing the joker be convenient? Most defiantly. Other criminals? Probably.

Would killing the joker be a personal sacrifice from batman? Possibly.

Hence my comment on how you could flavor him as NN.

Its not the bats fault they keep letting joker escape haha.

I think Alignment in D&D was originally inspired by Moorcock, with Law and Chaos as primal forces of reality.

One of the OSR retro-games - Lamentations of the Flame Princess, maybe - picked this up. It said that just about everybody who has ever lived IRL is Neutral, and PCs who were in the Law- or Chaos-aligned classes were really representing something different. Because it wasn't just about personality or outlook but about alignment with fundamental forces of reality.

Evil is also about *hurting* others - not just killing. And bats certainly chose this path rather then say altruistically using his great wealth to uplift gotham via social programs. For selfish reasons of taking revenge on the city criminals I might add :p

I think Alignment in D&D was originally inspired by Moorcock, with Law and Chaos as primal forces of reality.

That is true. In the OG Red/Blue/Teal/Black box editions of D&D (actually called D&D, no 'A' included) the only alignments were Lawful, Neutral, and Chaotic, without any Gs or Es. In this version protection from evil and detect evil only worked against creatures and forces that were 'opposed to the caster', and was probably my favorite version of this alignment system.

Evil is also about *hurting* others - not just killing. And bats certainly chose this path rather then say altruistically using his great wealth to uplift gotham via social programs. For selfish reasons of taking revenge on the city criminals I might add :p

hurting and punishing are two separate, though certainly not always mutually exclusive, things. Even in real life, there are people alive that would do evil just because they enjoy it, or because they enjoy the possible rewards from it. Namely monetary. the chaotic equivalent of businessmen if you will. No amount of "social programs" would change this aspect. Also, batman (bruce wayne) -does- do this. Wayne Enterprises has food, healthcare and technology divisions that directly fund and run much of Gotham's healthcare and social systems. Now you can argue bruce wayne and batman are different in a way a vigilante's dual persona is different. However that's still just one alignment step.

Does batman take advantage of regular people? Does he go out of his way to harm those that don't need it?

Evil is also about *hurting* others - not just killing. And bats certainly chose this path rather then say altruistically using his great wealth to uplift gotham via social programs. For selfish reasons of taking revenge on the city criminals I might add :p

And the arrogant assumption that he knows what's best for everyone in Gotham.

As for which Batman we're talking about. I like the comic book, late 80's-90's Batman, who is basically the same as the Batman: the Animated Series through Justice League Unlimited, animated Batman (if we're looking for a 'shared Batman'). The 'I don't use guns, or kill people' but will 'scare the hell out of them, and beat them to a pulp' Batman. He has taken advantage of people (usually their trust to gain information on the bad guy), he does try to mitigate collateral damage, but often makes the hard choices for other people.

I tend to think of him as too driven, and vigilante to be LN (which is often portrayed as law-abiding to a fault and not particularly passionate about anything, but the law). He doesn't strike me as particularly Chaotic as he definitely had the persistence, and dedication to train himself (himself!) to be one of the world's finest detectives, and martial artists, but neither is he really Lawful as he is constantly breaking the rules to 'get the job done'. So yeah....

"This is why it is best to be Lawful Arrogant (LA)."

The Batman I am most familiar with these days is the one from Lego Movie 2.

That movie is on a lot in our house.

I used to be super familiar with the circa 1960's Adam West Batman, but am not overly familiar with the Lego-verse.

I admit I never was into Batman all that much. None of the Super Heroes really 'did' it for me. As a kid, I watched Saber Rider, Queen Millenia, Nadia: Secret of Blue Water, Miyuki, Sailor Moon, etc...never really got into the whole Marvel or DC Stuff.

So I'm just going by what little I know. I mean, the guy is dressed up in a black leather costume to be better hidden in the dark, while he has a teen sidekick dressed like a fancy peacock to draw attention. I do know several Robins died - it's like, maybe let them dress a bit more stealthy as well, unless you are afraid the bad guys would then go after you?

Na, really, I think there's also some table variance there. As seen, some people see following a personal code of conduct as lawful, which is reasonable. But to me it depends on how much that code overlaps or is at odds with the law present in the area of the person - that means if the person stoically follows their values, their alignment might shift depending on locale.
"Kill everybody that insults you or your house" may work great for Drow, Orcs, or Klingons, but won't be quite par for the Course in the Shire.

I mean, we can even stay in Golarion. A necromancer would be right at home in Geb. Model citizens at home. Now send him abroad and see how his values work out in a center of Pharasma-Worship. What I mean is that context is needed, and even if there were absolute moral values, they could not be judged in a vacuum.

I mean, in PF evil and good are hard set in some things. Summoning undead is evil. Intentions don't make the act itself any less evil. Using infernal healing is evil. Killing a demon/devil is good. etc.

by PF rules, the necromancer from Geb is most likely evil. Neutral at best. Not saying I agree or like it, but thems the truths.

So I'm just going by what little I know. I mean, the guy is dressed up in a black leather costume to be better hidden in the dark, while he has a teen sidekick dressed like a fancy peacock to draw attention. I do know several Robins died - it's like, maybe let them dress a bit more stealthy as well, unless you are afraid the bad guys would then go after you?

Na, really, I think there's also some table variance there. As seen, some people see following a personal code of conduct as lawful, which is reasonable. But to me it depends on how much that code overlaps or is at odds with the law present in the area of the person - that means if the person stoically follows their values, their alignment might shift depending on locale.
"Kill everybody that insults you or your house" may work great for Drow, Orcs, or Klingons, but won't be quite par for the Course in the Shire.

"Spoken like a real Sailor Mercury." ~Apollyanna, during the Sex in the Future Crystal Tokyo Anniversary Special.*

* a truly mixed/oblique reference to Sex in City, Sailor Moon and this particular character.

I mean, in PF evil and good are hard set in some things. Summoning undead is evil.

"Ahem! I couldn't help but overhear. To be fair, I was standing unseen, just outside your window, in the middle of a starless night, with a big curvy knife hidden behind my back, but there it is regardless."

I mean, in PF evil and good are hard set in some things. Summoning undead is evil. Intentions don't make the act itself any less evil. Using infernal healing is evil. Killing a demon/devil is good. etc.

by PF rules, the necromancer from Geb is most likely evil. Neutral at best. Not saying I agree or like it, but thems the truths.

Evil and Good, yeah, they are defined. I was more relating to the Lawful/Chaotic Axis there.

But even with the 'clearly defined' evil and good, I have seen table variance. E.g. that mindless undead - animated by magic, do not have an agenda while controlled, and as such are not inherently evil, only useful tools in a world of limited resources.
e.g. specifically in a setting where a tribe living in the jungle used their deceased as guardians and lookouts to keep the beasts of the night at bay. Every warrior knew that he would serve his tribe twice, and the undead sentinels were regarded as valuable contribution from those who passed on. Each tribes 'size' was partially determined by how skilled their shaman/necromancer was - more guardians allowed for a larger tribe, and they were respected and valued for their service.
Is rising undead inherently evil? Aye, it does not change the spell description - but does it make sense to GM this as evil act given the setting, purpose and values? Less so, as the intent is purely beneficial to their social group, the 'targets' are willing and the purpose to protect others.
(After all, one can easily research different versions of spells. Maybe this Animate Dead is good-aligned but only works on willing targets that WANT to be animated. Or the setting simply has no bias that defaults undead as evil, allowing intelligent undead to have a much wider range of possible agendas. (Same setting had a good-aligned lich as high priest of a Ancient Egypt-based nation that basically got ritually cut up on high religious holidays, then regenerated at his phylactery.)

Definitely not contesting RAW there, just saying that imho, context and setting always matter which is why it may be very hard to accurately pinpoint an alignment with the existing system.

I don't really like Batman, he holds a code and holds others to that code, even if it makes no sense.. killing joker should have happened the first time.. incinerating his body the next time.. make sure he's gone.

He holds himself above .. i think of him a neutral.. holding to a code kinda, but far to interested in getting his own thoughts ful-filled.

So aside from the Batman tangent, what is the plan? You have some folks in the shell of an old tower returning to a camp full of dozens of woodland creatures (and Serena)--or at least that looks to be the plan, right?
I just want to make sure before moving forward.

a camp full of dozens of woodland creatures (and Serena)

Implying that Serena is not a wild creature herself? lol.

As for lawful vs chaotic.

Look at it from this way-

Lawful-
Desire order, structure, stability, predictability, security, and defined regulations. Even at the cost of personal freedoms, flexibility, privacy

Chaotic-
Desire complete personal freedom, to follow the currents of their heart, excitement and unpredictability, even at the cost of structure, stability etc.

and yes DM, thats fergus's plan

Zokon has asked someone to lead us back.

Trying to get Erevenywg back as well on the way to the camp. Or hopefully she'll be there. If not we'll have to make another search and rescue plan.

Serena can be very wild, in the right circumstances. Celibacy is not one of her vows.

Balzeros is happy to lead the way back. After some R&R, he could return to the tower and see if he can find our Fey friend again. Not without company, of course!

I think it for the best that Durgan sit out any conversation with the druid.

You know, some time ago I would have said "ok, well, and be done with it" with Eren going missing.

Also that she healed Zokon, then walked out and away should make me angry at her, but luckily Alia does not even know about that part since she was watching her grand-dad teaching her how to smith at that point in time.

Alas, she has become part of the entourage, and while Alia would STILL want to get rid of her because she is a Fey, she would want to get rid of her SAFELY - as in, not in this way. :P

So 2 questions:

a.: did Zokon indicate the correct direction when he sent her on her way?

b.: when we heared more worgs, did we account for most of them? Or are there likely yet more out there?

(I suppose C is not really a question, but I guess nothing reacted to the Clarion Call from Illthir? Except maybe more wildlife fleeing to the Druid?)

Durgan would be more than happy to set out to find Erevenywg.

I sure hope she was pointed in the right direction ...

Think she wasn't supposed to heal/use cool magic/meddle with mortals so she took the excuse to exit the stage. Perhaps only for now.

Tonights pondering - did she not return because the druid? And if so

1) was it because she'd be recognized personally?

2) because her 'kind' is the 'up to no good' sort of fairy and the druid could tell?

3) because the druid is actually a shapechanged demon?

4) because the druid is actually a shapechanged archfey here to scold some runaway fairy?

whoa. ya'll can come up with some pretty crazy what ifs. haha.

So 2 questions:

a.: did Zokon indicate the correct direction when he sent her on her way?

He is certainly confident in his directions.

b.: when we heared more worgs, did we account for most of them? Or are there likely yet more out there?

That would be tough to know.

For the record OOC I'm fairly sure our fairy friend will be fine (and is more powerful then she pretends to be). So I the player have no objection to werewolf hunt instead. But I can't recall Illthir ever getting that impression :p

She is a fey, that alone is reason enough for Fergus not to be terribly worried IC haha.

Please let me know if I assumed too much in regards to what rumors/kinda knowledge Fergus would have in regards to the fey(22/23 on 10s for nature/planes know skills). He is well read, and I figure a passing knowledge would have him know, or sorta know, what he does. Though that may vary from game to game and/or table to table.

Pathfinder fey are only immortal in the First World and are sol in the material world. Which makes our world pretty dangerous for scatterbrained and curious fey - which is most of them :p

For the record OOC I'm fairly sure our fairy friend will be fine (and is more powerful then she pretends to be).

Twenty levels of commoner!

She is a fey, that alone is reason enough for Fergus not to be terribly worried IC haha.

Please let me know if I assumed too much in regards to what rumors/kinda knowledge Fergus would have in regards to the fey(22/23 on 10s for nature/planes know skills). He is well read, and I figure a passing knowledge would have him know, or sorta know, what he does. Though that may vary from game to game and/or table to table.

The explination seems close enough. Honestly game designers could do themselves a favor and just roll the fey and outsider into one category. Is a raksasha a fey or an outsider? It's hard to tell from here on Earth.

Fergus looks to Illthir.

To be honest, I'm not her babysitter. Nor do I feel obligated to find her after she ran off leaving our companions to fend for themselves. Especially if she had healing magic. He gives a quick involuntary glance to Alia.
Also, fey, as a point, rarely actually die. Even if our companion were to perish, which I have my doubts she would, she would most likely merely end up back in the first world. At least according to the accounts I've heard and read... He stops and ponders for a few moments.

Though that said, I suppose its hard to ever really tell with the fey. Besides, after my suspicions about the girl being trouble were proven true... Well, I suppose just call me a grumpy, untrusting, cynical dwarf. He says shrugging.

and for that matter, I don't fully trust our druid friend here either quite frankly.

"I like this guy. Which is amazing because I don't seem to like anyone."

Pathfinder fey are only immortal in the First World and are sol in the material world. Which makes our world pretty dangerous for scatterbrained and curious fey - which is most of them :p

I actually think there are contradictions in this regard and its fairly unclear. After all, elders are fey, very powerful fey, but they can't die even in the material plane AFAIK.

Just saying OOC I really want to know what is going on with Eren - just wanted to make that clear...while IC Alia wants to drop her off somewhere safe and say farewell, OOC I would like to find out more about why she is here/tags along/what she knows.

@Fey: Well, they are a special kind of outsider, in a way...to some extent, i understand the separation, but also the frustration. That said, there are many 'native' Fey in the Wilderness - they tend, by their nature, to be well adapted to untamed nature.
And I believe that Eren would have means to keep herself save. I am not sure about her powers, but I suspect she has means to keep herself out of harms way. In fact, I am not sure if the Druid COULD track her if she does not want to be found(even if she uses her powers to evade a Werewolf, not a Druid)

That, and Illthirs Clarion Call must have reached out to her if she moved remotely in the correct direction - I mean, we already had a talk about the 1/10 feet distance penalty for perception checks that means effectively everybody on Golarion is short-sighted and hard of hearing, and most commoners effectively blind to anything happening 100 feet away - 200 feet if it's a battle.

All in all: I do want Eren back as a player(opposed to Alia) - but I think she will be fine, Ilvah will be more troublesome - I wouldn't want to pass through here in a year visiting Zokons mum or something and learn she murdered a couple families based on her bluff and has grown powerful enough to lead a roaming pack and recently murdered the hunters sent after her. I think Alia would think back to this night and feel very guilty about that.

Most things have souls. Outsiders are souls (unless they are Native). The somewhat cannon Golarion options for fey are either 1) reborn if slain on the first world, regular dead otherwise or 2) reborn if slain on the first world, oblivion otherwise.

Our version of the universe may have some twist on that of course - but are we really looking to find out?

yeah, but all those (native) souls pass through he first world when they come into being, do they not? I seem to recall that is how new fey come into being, by residual amalgation of powerful souls passing through their realm.
And death in the first world is not a permanent thing - i do seem to recall that certain powerful fey DO reform in the first world if slain in other places, as they are, in a way - tethered to it.(think silver cord/astral plane stuff)

But then, there is also a difference for Outsiders - you can permanently slay a devil in the material world, if he came here through e.g. a Gate.
Not if he is simply summoned or bound by a contract - in that case he would reform in his home plane.

I could imagine that a similar clause operates for Fey. And AFAIK we're located in an general area where the veil between material and first world is thin. I am not planning to test it out, but I would not be in the least surprised if she pulls some cartoon-level stunt where at some point she dies dramatically, then steps out behind a tree and stealthily joins us in mourning her before drawing attention to herself with a comment about how awful the body looks.

That outsider difference is just due to how conjuration magic works though. Summoned things are just copies and Called things are the real deal. And that's the same for anyone Summoned that way, though typically it's a bit more bothersome to Call non outsiders.

I'm fairly sure Ery isn't a summoned creature by now :p

not saying she is, just that there's patterns.
@copies: kind of. e.g. with the guardian spirit feat you can have a fey you summon that remembers everything and has the 24-hour clause if killed.

I am just saying there are a lot of corner and edge cases.
And I'm pretty certain that Eren is not an vanilla Fey that just decided to tag along out of the blue.
She made too many cryptic references for that in the past.
I believe she may be one of those special cases, in some form or way. As said, not planning on finding out, but it would not surprise me in the least if she had means of avoiding lethal attacks or cheating death.

Mechanics of abilities and feats are dicy though imo. Because something was made one way for playability doesn't mean much if the lore/metaphysics is clear.

---

Still feels sour to not even lift a finger for someone that's been with the party longer then half the PCs but I'll try to be grumpy about that mostly to myself :p

Aye, just saying she's also a custom model, just like all those dicy weird special cases :)

For what it's worth, as said, I agree that we should get her back.
But a.: she more or less 'shifted' down at the tower - wether dimensional shift, teleport, dimension door, shadow step ...if she has means like that at her disposal and used them to evade pursuit from (were)wolves, we may not even be able to track her.
b.: she tracked Ilvah herself. She is Fey. She is not entirely helpless in the wilderness, even if she presents herself as clumsy and naive. I am pretty certain she'll do better out there than half the party.

and most important, c.: Ilvah might lick her wounds now, decide to lie low, but she is a murderous betrayer at heart. If we leave and she continues to kill people, I feel that blood will be on our hands.
Not because it is our duty to stop here - but because we might have had the chance to do so and did not take it. Not sure how Illthir would deal with that but Alia would feel rather guilty if we pass through here the next time and hear another dozen kids were mysteriously murdered, along with a few adults, before a werewolf girl was eventually stopped.

(we know the worgs are smart enough to go after the sheep mostly - because people disappearing will invite a retaliatory response. I suspect she is behind the people/kids that went missing, and wanted to escape with us to new feeding grounds before said response became a reality).

She is not entirely helpless in the wilderness, even if she presents herself as clumsy and naive.

This is pretty much what Illthir have to go on IC though, the later bit. The one that thought getting chased by winter wolves was 'exciting!'.

On Ilvah though I do agree that we'd feel bad if she has eaten people once we get back around. And given that we did free her from the trolls (that incident may warrant even further examination now ...) it would probably be our fault.

But that's on future us conscience - and even if she does slip away now we have a chance to warn people and mitigate the problem.

Going after that problem now is a valid excuse for not spending the night yelling. Sleeping though and not working on either problem isn't though.

b.: she tracked Ilvah herself. She is Fey. She is not entirely helpless in the wilderness, even if she presents herself as clumsy and naive. I am pretty certain she'll do better out there than half the party.

In game, there isn't any actual evidence that anyone in the party could point to to support the idea of Erevenywg being a competent woods-person, fey or not. In fact, she seems genuinely amazed by things like sheep. She hasn't foraged, nor noted trail signs, or even really strayed out of sight into the wilds before.

Also, I have COVID (again!) and might be slightly muddled for the next few days (like when I put a "u" in 'slightly' just then). ;)

So what's it to be: The lady or the wolf (or the fabulous veggie dinner, and an early bedroll)? Heading back to the ancient tower should allow you to find tracks relatively easily. Where they lead is another story.

Place your votes!

I hope you recover quickly GM!

I was operating under the assumption that the Werewaif came in through the hole at the base of the tower wall.

Balzeros votes not going until we rest, but I think he is in the minority there. Voting between the lady or the wolf, he votes the lady. He'd rather find friends/companions first.