Of Kings and Commoners - Kingmaker AP

Game Master RPGGGM

Aye! But now it seems we got a shocking distraction :p

You can feel the electricity in the air.

O_o omg

What's the lethal radius for an average lightning strike in salt water? My uneducated guess is that hella (a very specific unit of measure, I'll have you know!) fish died in that video!

Also, my bad. I misunderstood the GM's "What do you do now?" prompt as "Which direction am I bringing to life," not "Deal with these shocker lizards." ;)

Yeah, woman folk. So good there's just man here, now.

(prepares Disguise Self)

I hope to one day have as much fun as the one guy right in the middle did in this scene. lol.

Also, because I was just showed this and instantly feel in love, enjoy this Small weekly comic strip "based on DnD"

Illthir would like to scribe 3 scrolls of Invisibility Alarm and 1 scroll of Play Instrument while we travel down here :)

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That's a good comic there! I've enjoyed it a lot.

Lol, I love that comic too! If only the weeks would pass by more quickly :P

EDIT: There is no loot to split, right?

Don't think there's any loot to split no.

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How would people feel about poking the lost child with Discern Next of Kin?

I feel that the mundane options to make her open up hasn't worked so far - and it might be best to escalate a little (before we ship her off to the wildness with us ...).

How does GM feel with Divinations btw?

I know some people aren't huge fans of a school dedicated to puzzle removal ... So I'll ask *before* I try it IC :D

I feel that the mundane options to make her open up hasn't worked so far - and it might be best to escalate a little (before we ship her off to the wildness with us ...).

How does GM feel with Divinations btw?

I know some people aren't huge fans of a school dedicated to puzzle removal ... So I'll ask *before* I try it IC :D

Of course, you will have to find a traveling wizard of the Maury Povich school.

I am not familiar with that person sorry. Wiki says a talkshow host?

He had a show that was mostly about revealing paternity tests to everyone possibly involved in front of a live studio audience.

In fact, I'm surprised he isn't a Fox News host right now.

Is he the "You are (not) the father" guy?

That's him.

Oh, even I know that guy :)

If you do decide to go with the spell, I am fine - it seems sensible.
But I still want to bring her along with us.

Can you try to find if our Fey-Tag-Along has any relatives we can drop her off at? :D

Oh, we can give Ilvah to the Fey!
She can take Fey Foundling and everything. (Well, I guess that's the reverse.)

A walking WMD raised by the Fey... what could go wrong?

Nobody deserves to be given to the Fey. (well, except our Fey-Tag-Along)
Don't even joke about it.
*protectively covers Ilvah*

never trust the fey. Especially the nymphs!

@Ilthir:

I think you are supposed to flick the copper coin to the target(somatic), while intonating the phrase "a Copper for your thoughts about your family"(Vocal)...not just place it on the ground :D

"Since this spell reads the target’s mind, you can learn only what the target knows or believes."

I'm pretty sure the see text applies to this. Even if they fail, you may get nothing anyway (in case of amnesia) or an incorrect answer.

Mm probably. But usually the text spells out where and when the will save comes. I hope :p

We'll see if it works. Notably - if it looks like the spell succeeded and we gain nothing - we know that she doesn't actually know.

Aight! Not the best outcome - hope the girl recovers (and realizes that Illthir did stop when "asked").

But we've learned that:

1) she understands

2) she doesn't want us to find out about her parents

...Because they're scary dragons and we might dragon-slay her if we do?
...Because they are abusive a&+&%#%s and she doesn't want to go back?
...Because they died horribly in horror and she doesn't want to think about it?

Or ... Maybe she is afraid of magic? Winter witches and all that.

I know Alia plans to take Leadership, and this seems the plan to get her a silver dragon cohort.

So I am not meaning to be too difficult. But trying to play this as in-character as possible.

If she were human, and her parents were alive and wanted her back, it would be kidnapping to take her with us. (Durgan might still do that anyway in cases of serious abuse.) We are pretty sure she is not human but need some way to establish that.

In my book, we found her chained to some weird stone structure with a assumed Silver Dragon, and Trolls homing in on her.

Unless she was abducted, that's not prime parenting by whoever landed her in that position.
Even if her parents are alive and want her back, if they are remotely responsible for the mess, Alia would "kidnap" her.
"Oh, we tried to sacrifice her as tribute to the trolls, but thanks for bringing her back, we'll have another shot next year".

I think we may want to investigate how she ended up in the situation she did. I mean, I doubt she randomly wandered through the woods and accidently chained herself.
Is there some precedence for that? Is there some history with the trolls that may give an explanation? May she have been a sacrifice? Part of a deal?
If it was, indeed, a troll trap, then who's bait was she? That of the Trolls, or that of the Silver Dragon, and how did she end up with either? And why did they set a trap in the middle of nowhere?

I understand the worries and thoughts, but I feel like focusing too much on her may not help us.
We suspect she is not human, but beyond that? I may hope she could be a Dragon, but I think the Ice Witch is also not off the table, or a number of other options.

For what it's worth, Alia is NOT going to consult our local Fey, but she may have more insights...I think she has some limited Truesight or illusion immunity going based on past remarks, maybe asking our Fey tag-along could also produce some intel.

I think if we understand WHY she ended up chained to that rock, it may help us understand a.: what she may be, and b.: wether it's worth trying to return her to any parents.

I am trying to figure out b. right now, as I am under the impression after Ilthis attempt that the prospect of returning home is more terrifying to her than going abroad to live in the wilderness with some strangers, which truly tells me all I need to know and triggers my maternal instincts.

@Durgan: It's fine you injected yourself into what was supposed to be a private talk with Zokon, but I specifically ran off with Ilvah to be alone with her for a moment and ask her about her plans.
I'll respond to you, but I want that scene AFTER mine with Ilvah, not concurrently.

Wasn't meaning to interrupt your scene with Zokon. Sorry about that.

And yes, from the very beginning of this whole situation I have been asking why she was chained up to that rock and what the trolls were hoping to accomplish.

I think this is a way to introduce a cohort for you, so I will try not to get in your way too much. Please do take me at my word when I say that. I am offering legitimate in-character concerns about kidnapping/abduction vs rescuing, and parental custody and so on, but OOC I am not trying to thwart you. We just need to make a reasonable effort to find her parents. To give some in-character cover for your decision.

"They were not strong enough to keep an army of trolls from kidnapping her" is not a failure worthy of them losing custody of their child forever.
(But I do not think that is what happened.)

Yes, we need more information.

A bit of mind probing could solve a lot of issues.. heheh. As one powerful sith once said. "Do it".

If it's to be Alia's cohort, let's engage in a bit of metagaming and let her take the lead on dealing with Ilvah.

thats fine. But just because she has the lead doesn't mean I can whisper things in her ears haha. The spell I am trying to find is- Detect anxieties It is a much better suited spell for this, and is much less likely to be overly intrusive. Something Fergus would rather have the ability to offer, if the decision to use it was made, than not.

Even if I would agree totally to doing nothing further with the girl, Fergus wouldn't have that, so would still go about making preparations. Even if those preparations are not used in the end.

Note - I'm fairly certain spellcasting is always noticeable in pathfinder unless said otherwise by some feature or thing. (One always gets a chance to spellcraft)

That one is active may not be though, so going outside for a walk and coming back concentrating might work. Depends on how noticeable concentration is though ... :P

Detect Anxieties seems a very appropriate spell.

I'm certain a spell usually is noticeable if you are looking. They require hand movements and arcane phrases. Those that don't require S/V components may be noticeably less so. Which is why I should have stated the distance better. That along with the ongoing situation may have provided the 4ish seconds needed to cast the spell without scrutiny. Remember every 10ft or so Is a -1 perception IIRC.

However I don't think concentration is that noticeable. It would likely equate to a mildly distant feeling from the person. Likely akin to someone thinking about something else while carrying a conversation at most. Not something too noticeable unless you knew the person fairly well. And even then probably something that wouldn't raise magic suspicions immediately. More like they may be worried about something else.

At least, that's how I have always played it.

Unless you use one of the Feats to conceal spellcasting, it is always noticeable yes.
Even a short distance away will not change that. Heck, even if you use a silent still spell, people get to roll spellcraft to notice what you are doing.
Rules are pretty clear on that, consider it being magic being noticeably pulled in to manifest your effect.

But yeah, as said, casting off-screen and maintaining concentration can work, as I said myself. Concentration can be noticeable, but should be easy enough to fake - in theory.

Alas, while Fergus can be very unscrupulous IC, I just wanted to re-state that while OOC I am also interested in whats going on behind the screen, IC Alia will not stand for any invasive mind probing of any sort done to any she considers her allies or wards.(Invasive defined by the person refusing. If someone willingly has their mind read that's a different matter entirely).

@Durgan: I am not sure that is it. I would be up for that, but by all means, don't feel restricted because you consider it's a setup I know about.
She seems to trust me somewhat, and so I'm "taking the lead" about her. I also try to do things "elvish" - it's barely been 2 or 3 weeks since we found her, and there's no hurry. If it takes a few months for her to open up, that does not seem a long time. She does not expect results after a few days...The fact she even got a name out of her feels empowering to Alia, in that her approach isn't going all wrong.

But yeah, lets try and find out more about how she ended up there. I concur that being unable to prevent a kidnapping by trolls is no failure, but that may also well mean she witnessed a traumatic slaughter of her family and does not wish to remember it. But lets see if we can find more info on that venue...I remember you asked as well, but I figured it may be a good time to bring it up once more.

Slight tangent here-

technically paizo has come out to say that even a silent/stilled/eschew mats spell can still be identified as a spell. Which does make a lot of the more "subtle" spells rather pointless. Charm person at a social event? Anyone that looked your way saw you do magic, and while you can potentially convince them it was a simply cantrip to cool your wine... well. Hope they don't have spellcraft or detect magic. Even if those spells have no listed visual effects or the like. Paizo just said "yeah no you cast spell hur hur" Completely ignoring their own RAW and making the silent/still metamagic spells even more niche and almost useless.

Spell-craft for a spell at least takes penalties: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors. (so, apparently, you can still know someone is casting a spell, even if they are invisible and using silent spell) which I find absolutely ridiculous.

Same applies to spells like (detect thoughts), suggestion, etc. It makes a lot of those "social" spells, the exact opposite, and is one of the reasons I never play social casters outside of a bard. Because bards get to ignore the rules of magic and cast spells with things like-
Spellsong

which does bring up the question for future scenarios. How are we handling magic and the like. I'm fine with anything, so long as I am aware of it. Not having to worry about sneaky spellcasters at our court would be a huge boon.

1. Noticing a spell
2. Identifying a spell
3. Noticing a spell without verbal/somatic components
4. invisible caster casting a spell (the DC to identify the spell is +20 base) If even allowed. (Can't see target, so doesn't even get a check?)
5. Does everyone automatically know you are casting a spell if you hide its verbal component/are not looking at you. (bluff check to distract them?)
6. Are we allowed to attempt to hide spellcasting components in any capacity through bluff/sleight of hand/etc with a feat? (as few exist). Fine with a no on this one, as I said, makes it easier on us at court(s).
7. noticing someone casting a spell with the still spell, silent spell and eschew material feats applied.

Also, minor question for Alia, as I'm curious.

If someone at our (hopefully eventual) court (and so, likely perceived ally) is suspected for being a "traitor" or "spy" would she force them to undergo a zone of truth spell if they said they did not wish to?

There is also Conceal Spell(and Improved), specifically for your needs, but an awful Feat.

Regarding your Zone of Truth, thats comparing Apples to Oranges.
In a Zone of Truth, the subject can simply decide not to speak. It is a compulsion. They may also be evasive. Either way, it is up to them what information they give up.

That is not true for reading minds. What you get is NOT under the control of the targeted individual. Unless you would like to state that individuals at all times are in control of their own thoughts, that is a completely different situation.
Alia was just discussing the wedding, and may think of her family, or situations that may make it difficult for them to come.
Those factors may be secret for a reason, and to protect her family, she may go to great lenghts to ensure they stay secret.

Furthermore, someone at court accused as a traitor or spy would imply significant consequences. The same can, at the current time, hardly be said about the presence of Ilvah. If you want to worry about a potential danger, I would prefer people worry about Stroon until we are back home.

As for the Magic, yeah, they shafted "sneaky casting"...taken a step further:

Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like Spells (though they are not Spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components).

So you can have a SLA with no verbal, somatic or other components, with no visible effect, but you still provoke an AoO for doing it. That may be considered 'amount of focus requires/spacing out' but if that was the case then I could pretend to do that to catch the attacker of guard, instead.

There is also what you mentioned before: You get the 'ding' when you make your save...but that is also clearly defined:

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.

So yeah, unless the spell was identified previously, if the target makes its save, it can assume the worst. You may just as well have tried to dominate someone. So here's the counter-question: Would you take chances at court if someone's blasting people with magic? If you have no idea what they are casting, but are aware the only 2 outcomes are either you fall to their spell, or know they just tried something and failed, with no idea what they tried to do?

It is possible that at our courts (or others) we might encounter an Enchanting Courtesan.

You have to beat both their Bluff (with Sense Motive) and Sleight of Hand (with Perception) to notice that a spell has been cast.

@Durgan: Thanks for making me read that class. I've had a few characters struggling with trying for hidden casting. At least for one of them, this seems like a decent way to go, if some...reflavoring is permitted.

And regarding the interrupt: No worries, but I did state that "Durgan" would probably not like the Grove because Brevoyan guests could consider it too elven. I am thankful for your suggestion, but I would not have talked about you in third party if I had known you are there ;) - so no worries.

I wasn't trying to compare the situations per say, it was a scenario I thought of with a few similarities, though large differences. I'm genuinely curious as it may be something that comes up. And these types of moral (dilemmas?) help define a character in my experience. I also find it interesting in general. What is the greater good? Protecting an individuals rights, or potentially protecting you and your own? These are questions I like to think about when I make a character. I often find the answer isn't 100% clear cut. So was curious to Alia's (the characters) potential thoughts.

that aside, saying there is no potential for danger from this girl is just like asking for it. We have no idea who or even what she is. No idea who or what is interested in her or why, nothing.

We may well be attracting attention from groups whose power makes Stroon look like a mid afternoon rain compared to their thunderstorm. The girl may be some powerful creature, trapped or plotting, even if its highly unlikely.

Even if the girl isn't some powerful entity having a laugh or following some long term plan, she was in the situation for a reason. Its unlikely that she was selected randomly. So to dismiss the potential danger we attract simply by having her in our presence is foolhardy. Especially if a silver dragon was with her.

That said, we are traveling with a fey, which is a danger unto itself.

And good call out Durgan, I'd forgotten that PrC existed. I remember having wanted to try one for the Taldane court AP, I forget its actual name at this moment.

someone has looked the girl over with a detect magic correct?

As for the Magic, yeah, they shafted "sneaky casting"...taken a step further:

Quote:

Spell-like abilities are magical and work just like Spells (though they are not Spells and so have no verbal, somatic, focus, or material components).

So you can have a SLA with no verbal, somatic or other components, with no visible effect, but you still provoke an AoO for doing it. That may be considered 'amount of focus requires/spacing out' but if that was the case then I could pretend to do that to catch the attacker of guard, instead.

This means that if you are paralyzed you don't provoke AOOs, but if you drop your nonexistent guard to use a purely mental SLA, then you provoke.

Best to not examine that part of the rules too closely.

Hm. You may want to search for some walls of text between Numalar and me, that took place in regards to death penalty for some bandits we took prisoner.
There was a lot of moral stuff covered in that exchange, and it went over several weeks.

So in a non-comparative manner, Alia would probably still be fine with the Zone of Truth, as NOT speaking remains an option. It simply eliminates the option of lies, IF the person fails their save. As it's an area spell, the caster would not be aware, so it would probably be much the same as a normal 'lie detector' test. A compelling argument, but not, by itself, enough to clear charges or sentence them as guilty.

In more extreme circumstances, Alia may even agree to more extreme methods. But that would depend on the situation at hand. Alia is chaotic good, she has morals, but does not really depend on strict formalization of those.
So, to give one of those examples: She may be opposed to torture and mind probing. But if such is the difference between rescuing some kids that are about to die in some death trap, or later finding their mangled bodies, then by all means, torture and do whatever is needed to get the answers we need.

But while as a player I acknowledge that Ilvah MAY be dangerous, in character I am rather convinced that she is not. I did call the way we found her into question, but we've been travelling for several days/weeks with her now, in villages, cities and wilderness, and so far, things were perfectly fine.
Even if she WAS a trapped, plottting, powerful alien entity with a long-term plan, there is little reason to assume she will act any time soon if she kept still until now.
In other words: There is no urgency.
If she is just some semi-normal girl that wants to leave this place behind, then the only urgency would be finding relatives, and she seems disinclined to favor this idea.
IF she is something more than a normal girl, then we would need to find out more, but not with such high priority that we have to magically probe her against her will.

I did bring up Ilvah again as we prepare to depart towards Restov, because it seems reasonable to make a token attempt at finding any caretaker, or contact Argentov again(even if he claims to not have anything to do with her).
But considering her a threat NOW all of a sudden and focusing resources on finding out about her seems excessive. Yeah, she could have been a shape-changing assassin out to kill Lord Gurev - in that case we would best have made sure about her nature before attending that dinner.
To start worrying now after 3 weeks of having her tag along simply makes little sense to me IC.

@Durgan: I concur. I understand many of these are for balance reasons, but there's a couple things best not examined too closely.

note, I don't think she is anything more than a child. Perhaps, a child of a different race. But thats it. I'm more concerned, in and out of character, about who had plans for her, what those plans entailed, and how important she was to them.

to note, its not her that is potentially threatening, its the attention of those her presence with us attracts. If any.

In that case, I would request that you first investigate our Fey tagalong.
Who fled to us from something. And provided Numalar with some cryptic warnings.

Alia is afraid of Fey, but feel free to become her new buddy. I think if any powers are currently threatening us, it is ones aligned with her, not Ilvah.

As you say, she may be just a child of some race, but I doubt she was more than a pawn - had we not intervened, she would either have died at the hands of trolls and winter wolfs, or would be with Argentov Lind, who had the means to come and retrieve her, if he survived his combat with the Trolls.
So I would love to know how she ended up there, but I honestly don't think anybody had any plans for her beyond that point.

I still don't understand why Argentov allowed himself to be chained, when he demonstrated the ability to break the chains.

He could have broken free and flown away with her at any time.

He was hiding something from us - quite possibly manipulating us into taking Ilvah. For the "greater good," of course. Even Good dragons think they are entitled to play mortals like that.

Durgan will eventually get a Sending to Argentov.

The issue being the fey tag along was here before fergus. So he is mildly less suspicious at the moment.

Same holds true for Durgan - the fey tag-along predates his joining. As far as he is concerned, she is just one of the party.

Note - I'm fairly certain spellcasting is always noticeable in pathfinder unless said otherwise by some feature or thing. (One always gets a chance to spellcraft)

In general (and without a specific set of feats), yes.

That one is active may not be though, so going outside for a walk and coming back concentrating might work. Depends on how noticeable concentration is though ... :P

Concentration might make a caster look focused or distracted based upon what they are concentrating upon.

But a girl's gotta sleep sometime....

which does bring up the question for future scenarios. How are we handling magic and the like. I'm fine with anything, so long as I am aware of it. Not having to worry about sneaky spellcasters at our court would be a huge boon.

1. Noticing a spell
2. Identifying a spell
3. Noticing a spell without verbal/somatic components
4. invisible caster casting a spell (the DC to identify the spell is +20 base) If even allowed. (Can't see target, so doesn't even get a check?)
5. Does everyone automatically know you are casting a spell if you hide its verbal...

As someone who plays a number of wizards (some of whom have attempted to cast charm person to small avail--not because he didn't get it off but rather because of saving throws).

In general I try to go along with the actual rules for casting spells. So if you need to speak it in a voice loud enough to be heard or wiggle your fingers about there's not much you can do to disguise it except perhaps through deception ("This spell will clear up your back hair." disintergrate "I didn't lie did I?"), distraction or cover of some sort ("Total b~#$#in' party man! I can hardly hear myself speak!")

These things might involve some set up or skill checks (diplomacy, bluff, etc...).

IDing a specific spell as it is cast requires someone with spellcraft who is able "to see the spell as it is cast" (as per the spellcraft skill). This answers #4, and #7 as well.

Noticing/IDing a spell without any tells (like spell-like or supernatural abilities that mimic spells, but have no 'components') are almost impossible. Generally you have to look for the effect with a divination like detect magic and then attempt to identify it with skills like spellcraft, or knowledge (arcane).

Hiding components possibly makes the spell harder to ID (see spellcraft skill) as there is a flat DC 20 to ID a spell with a specific component.

Most of the rules for these interactions can be found under the rules for: spellcraft, knowledge (arcana), and detect magic, and ability rules for spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.

someone has looked the girl over with a detect magic correct?

Fergus did at one point thought--back at the stone circle. If not, Fergus has had time since. No magic on Ilvah.

I still don't understand why Argentov allowed himself to be chained, when he demonstrated the ability to break the chains.

{Whistles while alternating between looking at the ground and sky.}

In that case, I would request that you first investigate our Fey tagalong.

Who fled to us from something. And provided Numalar with some cryptic warnings.

Oh come on, she cute. How bad could it be?

And she's standing right behind you with a serrated greatsword. Her neon pink eyes twitching in insane manic fury....

Fergus would purchase a few of the books anyway, every little bit helps.

As he watches the scene unfold, he sighs to himself.
Oh enough of this. Lets see if a little subtlety can help. Fergus steps several feet away, before he mutters the incantation for a spell.

casting detect thoughts. DC 17 will to resist. Techincally it may hit Serena as well, maybe even Illthir, but he is focusing on the girl. And I don't think it would matter for them really.

He then walks back the few feet to his companions group and begins to focus on Ilvah, just looking at the girl with a mildly worried expression.

After about 12 seconds pass, he speaks up.

Lass, they just want to help you find your home.

"Finally, a pragmatist. I like it." says the vocally-fried evoker with the bat hanging off her cape.

"I concur. Though you both should see what I have to put up with." says the bishōnen wizard in the wide-brimmed hat. "Coffee anyone?"