Nightflier's Midnight Game Thread

Game Master nightflier

Set in the grim world of Aryth, Nightflier's Midnight is a game that speaks of almost futile hope that shines against the darkness.


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Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:
T-W Fighting will be a great investment for chops. Right now it's not much good, but it's a set-up feat for later. For now, just don't use it unless you're getting additional bonuses from somewhere else. Flanking, for example.

A defender class ability allows him to halve any restrictions to hit, and the Steelblooded path does the same thing at level five IIRC, effectively negating twf penalties. I planned on going that route.


Male Erunsil (Snow Elf) Fighter 5
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:

I see and understand the point, but aren't there feats out there that allow a character to use any stat for an attack bonus? To me, that would be more appropriate than to completely make strength unnecessary. There could be an additional feat that allows that stat for damage. I get that it allows non-full BAB classes be more effective in combat, but at the expense of making the player who wanted to play a fighter irrelevant. Of course, it only works for one weapon, but how many times are we going to find ourselves in that position?

Also, who says high strength equals hulking beast? I know we all know "that person" that doesn't look it, but is immensely strong.

Edit: This is coming from someone that wonders what strength has to do with hitting anything. I believe that strength or dexterity should be allowed for attack bonuses without need for a feat.

FWIW Chops I agree with you completely. Fighters don't have a feat to give them familiars, or healing, or dancing lights...etc so we stay one trick ponies, while now those not combat characters...especially at early levels can be effective in melee combat. With a party this large we don't need that. I don't feel very special at all, but that is the way this party is we have a few extremely Min-Maxed characters, and a few more interested in Character concept and balance. I almost quit over this, but then decided the world and adventure was rich enough, that I'd worry about my character, and let the "super" characters play with their superhero's. Don't let it influence your enjoyment of the game. It should get real interesting when Sky discovers that his favored enemy...the type of creature that destroyed everyone in his village, and he had to kill as his reanimated father is a member of the party...


Female Erenlander Spiritual Chaneller 5

I agree to what Chops says and it is true that having Gilian with a 8 strength out damage Chops is mechanistically weird. My thoughts in building this character was that making a healer only in Midnight setting was going to give a very weak character as the chaneller will always be a weak healer. The healer heroic path is as well subpar compared to most other heroic paths. And as most her spell energy will be used for healing, I do not plan doing any other significant spellcasting As I wanted the character to be able to last till the end of the fights to heal the other ones and not to wait idly once her few healing spells are exhausted, I took that trait to add a little more melee power.I know well that this trait is really over powered at level one but this will fade over the next levels. For game balance, I would not mind removing the trait for my character.

One more point for Chops player, defender is a class that scales quite well just like the monk as long as you play on your strengths: mobility, grappling…. But suffers from needing to have multiple good abilities to shine.


Gillian, just to let you know, I was only pointing out your stats as an example of how I think it is a bad feat, not because I think you are guilty of munchkining (even though your charcter is a bit on the wee side he he). Hell, if I were playing a different type of character I'd be tempted to get it just because it is available. I'm not very good at picking out a min/maxer, Ragnar's character seems like it but we have already gone over that a while ago.

So far, I am very happy with the role playing aspect of how this game is going, it is the combats I am worried about now that I have seen everyone in action. One, I am afraid I may have made a bad build. Two, non-focused melee characters shouldn't out hit and out damage characters whose only contribution (other than roleplaying), is melee. Ragnar said that my character as more like a rogue. In our party, we already have a rogue that will out stealth Chops all day long and still kick his ass in a fight, so that brings me back to my original point, that my character is pretty irrelevant in this crowd. All he can really do is take hits. I had a third point but I forgot, so I'll just say that I would have preferred if we stuck to core PF, Midnight, and some Iron Heroes stuff except for that Weapon Bond feat. I, for one, don't have the time or desire to sift through every splat book so I can make a superman who can keep up with an experienced min/maxer in a pbp game.

Also, why limit yourself to just healing at the expense of some good combat spells to keep the enemy from hurting the rest of us? Stay in the middle near Solvistania and lob out some doozies and good buffs. I think that would be more fun for you. Also, if this is a low magic setting, I think we should alter the Heal skill and have feats to be able to turn lethal into non-lethal damage, like in the Black Company setting.


Female Erenlander Spiritual Chaneller 5

On a completely different subject, i'll be off on holydays from this saturday to the next, without computer or internet access. Please feel free to take over Gilian.


Male Human Bard 1/Ranger 1/Expert 3
Sky'tor Tu'kaleth wrote:


FWIW Chops I agree with you completely. Fighters don't have a feat to give them familiars, or healing, or dancing lights...etc so we stay one trick ponies, while now those not combat characters...especially at early levels can be effective in melee combat. With a party this large we don't need that. I don't feel very special at all, but that is the way this party is we have a few extremely Min-Maxed characters, and a few more interested in Character concept and balance. I almost quit over this, but then decided the world and adventure was rich enough, that I'd worry about my character, and let the "super" characters play with their superhero's. Don't let it influence your enjoyment of the game. It should get real interesting when Sky discovers that his favored enemy...the type of creature that destroyed everyone in his village, and he had to kill as his reanimated father is a member of the party...

I'll assume that I'm one of the one's who is being targeted (again) as a min/maxer. Funny thing is, NEVER in my life have I made a PC with "optimization" in mind... I've always tended to be critical of those who emphasized "roll playing" over "role playing"! While I am currently playing in three PbPs, playing in two real life Pathfinder games, and DMing one tabletop Midnight 3.5/Pathfinder hybrid, I have never played/DMed in a 3.5/Pathfinder game where the PCs were above fourth level (check my aliases on these boards, the highest level PbP character is Keildrithe Oldsun, a 3rd level bard/1st level ranger that I've been playing since 2007; and the Midnight game I've been DMing for over a year has only now just reached 4th level). I have limited knowledge of feats and spells beyond the low level range, and have never engaged in long-term character planning (i.e., if I take Feat X at level 3 and invest so many skill points in skill Z, then at level Y I can take a level of class W)... I certainly haven't studied the rule books and splatbooks inside out to figure out what would give me the best tactical advantage in various situations, and suspect that many in this game have a better grasp of the mechanics of both 3.5 and Pathfinder than I do. I learn the game as I go, and as a DM, I've often been surprised by what PCs can actually accomplish when they level up.

In retrospect, I realize why Eyvindr would seem min/maxed and munchkinized in many ways (and again, I apologize if that's detracting from some players' enjoyment of the game), and this should have been evident to me earlier on, but it was the story/RPing options presented by Doomed Hero and Nightflier that drew me to the concept. I never developed him thinking, "wow, these traits will make me sooooooo indestructible!" And if someone thinks I didn't spend alot of time thinking of a detailed and logical background, then think again...

And let's face it, Eyvindr has a MAJOR weakness... if he takes damage, he can't heal without doing something that would likely earn him the enmity of the whole party (except his brother).

You are right, it should get interesting when Sky discovers what Eyvindr really is. And please, don't hold back -- if you think Sky would try to kill Eyvindr, then by all means, go for it. I'm not usually a proponent of intra-party fighting/killing, but in this case, it might be justified... and I won't take it badly if Eyvindr is at the losing end. I'll just end up making a new PC that won't appear so min/maxed or munchkinized.

The ironic thing is... Eyvindr is his own favoured enemy as well, and the destruction of his own kind is the focus of his heroic path...

I'm sorry if this response seems a little "defensive" (or aggressive)? I guess I've just never had to deal with these kinds of allegations before, and to be honest, I'm finding this frustrating.

But let's face it, if I need to keep defending my PC concept from the perceptions of others, then at some point, I may need to bow out so that others may derive greater enjoyment of the game...


TwiceBorn wrote:


I'll assume that I'm one of the one's who is being targeted (again) as a min/maxer...

Not by me. I actually think your character is pretty balanced at my inexpert eye, and that you too are getting the 'short stick' with this weapon bond feat. I am in the same boat as you as far as character planning goes. My 'beef' is that non-fighters are more powerful fighters than fighters in this game.


Noooooo! I cannot let this stand any more! This is a high powered setting/game, min/maxing is ok in this case.

We are a team, and we each have our roles to play. Being a Minmaxer does not make you invincible. See Solvi and the trap which nearly killed her.

My rant is done.

PS> Solvi knows he is Fell, but has not disclosed the knowledge yet, as she waits to see how things play out, he he.

PPS if this does not stop, I will send you to the Jenny/Nik school of roleplaying, which should be for the fun of it!


Eric Swanson wrote:

Noooooo! I cannot let this stand any more! This is a high powered setting/game, min/maxing is ok in this case.

We are a team, and we each have our roles to play. Being a Minmaxer does not make you invincible. See Solvi and the trap which nearly killed her.

My rant is done.

PS> Solvi knows he is Fell, but has not disclosed the knowledge yet, as she waits to see how things play out, he he.

Solvi's strength is too high. Way too high. ;P And you called her Solvi mwa ha ha ha, my nickname sticks!


Male Human Bard 1/Ranger 1/Expert 3
Eric Swanson wrote:

PPS if this does not stop, I will send you to the Jenny/Nik school of roleplaying, which should be for the fun of it!

Not sure I'm getting the joke... who are Jenny and Nik????


Male Human Bard 1/Ranger 1/Expert 3

And thanks for your thoughts, Eric and Chops.


Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
Eric Swanson wrote:

Noooooo! I cannot let this stand any more! This is a high powered setting/game, min/maxing is ok in this case.

We are a team, and we each have our roles to play. Being a Minmaxer does not make you invincible. See Solvi and the trap which nearly killed her.

My rant is done.

PS> Solvi knows he is Fell, but has not disclosed the knowledge yet, as she waits to see how things play out, he he.

Solvi's strength is too high. Way too high. ;P And you called her Solvi mwa ha ha ha, my nickname sticks!

Eh ya got me he he


TwiceBorn wrote:
Eric Swanson wrote:

PPS if this does not stop, I will send you to the Jenny/Nik school of roleplaying, which should be for the fun of it!

Not sure I'm getting the joke... who are Jenny and Nik????

Click HERE.


Female Human (Sarcosan) Fighter 2/ Chaneller 3

Ok I'l finally chime in on this. The one thing I have issue with is accusing players of focusing on min-maxing while claiming to be the "purist" who focuses on role-play. In fact the characters that can most likely be accused of being min-maxed, have actually been amongst the most active in the role playing aspect of the game by far.

Also, If bieng a character with a perfect distribution of stats were such an ideal gamer's goal, we'd all play Paladins. The fact is that the feat in question really does make for an amazing customization of fighting styles and in my case allows one to create a fighter that isn't all about brute strength or insane speed.

The feat is actually quite applicable to real life combat. I'm a professional martial artist. Ever fought a capoeirista? I guarantee that the first time you see an opponent move their body in a manner that seems to defy both biology and physics,you'll be planted for a second in shock. That's what gets you hit.

Charisma applied to attack roll. Hun-gar uses Con for the same purposes while Zen archery or Iaido could easily be a case of using wisdom. Dim-mak is all based upon knowledge and understanding of the living body, using Int as a combat stat essentially.

By definition using charisma for the majority of my combat options defines a "broken " character.

Over powered, maybe although using aweapon like a verdatch with the feat sacrifices the benefits of using it 2-handed.

Powergaming over role play, I'd like to see someone justify that claim.

There are well designed, well made and well played characters, and no reason why one can't be all three. So far the characters that keep being slammed seem to also be the ones contributing to the story line and character interaction,so I really don't see the problem.

As to Chops, you have the makings of an awesome, double teamer/ mage killer. At level one damage seems like a big deal. At level three stunning/ grappling the mage or disarming the greataxe weilding raging barbarian might have just saved the entire party from certain death.

It's allabout perspective.


Illona, thanks for that explanation. It is a very well made point. And for the record, I wasn't talking about your character at all. You took a 14 Str as well as the trait I am talking about. You probably would have been better served by one of those "weapon finesse for charisma" feats that I know is out there. Also, I realize that I too have a pretty decent trait (I've been calling weapon bond a feat, oops). One that is basically the Toughness Feat + an extra ability to not get knocked down. Pretty decent.

And to make my position clear, I am not about taking away anything from another player. I am more interested in what I can do to make Chops into a better combatant than a fighter or a healer. Right now he is not and that bothers me. I asked for it before in this thread, but I'll do it again. If anyone wants to help with my build I would appreciate it because, just like Twiceborn, I am pretty clueless as to what will make an effective character at higher levels. Hell, even at lower levels because I though a +2 Ab and +3 dmg bonus was decent.

And as to why I can post all day today and yesterday, this is right down the street from where I work.


Male Human Bard 1/Ranger 1/Expert 3
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:


And as to why I can post all day today and yesterday, this is right down the street from where I work.

Ouch... I hope none of that backs up into your basement!

I'm actually cool with not having character advancement down to a science. I just plan on taking whatever feats or skills make sense, based on character concept and what has been happening in the game, and if those choices result in an over- or under-optimized PC, so be it.


Male Human Bard 1/Ranger 1/Expert 3

And on another note... If non-channelers want familiars, I recommend checking out Troll Lord Games' Book of Familiars (if Nightflier allows it). It allows non-channelers/sorcerers/wizards to expend feats to obtain and improve familiars, which are tailored to specific classes. TLG is presently working on an update of the book for PFRPG. In a real life Pathfinder game I'm going to start playing in tonight, I designed a first level rogue who used his feat slots on Summon Familiar and Shingles Runner... probably not the most optimized rogue out there, but it works with the concept/background I had in mind for him.

After all, why should familiars be limited to arcane casters? Alot of warriors and rogues in fantasy books and movies have familiars and/or animal companions.

Dark Archive

Wow, this game must be interesting to generate this amount of talk :). Now, one thing that Chops has to have in mind is that he will get more feats as he progresses, since he gets bonus feats whenever monk class gets them. That means lot more options later on. If you like to tweak your Heroic Path - and that goes to all of you - you can take DH's modified heroic paths instead of those in Midnight Core Rules. Chops has the option to gain more interesting stuff by investing in storytelling. What I mean is to take the same route as Ragnar, Ilona or Eyvindr. I don't mind more powerful or versatile PCs, as long as their players invest some time to explain their advantages, since that gives me more options for my game and makes my job easier.

I'm gonna take a look at Book of Familiars, but I think that it would not be a problem. I like the concept of animal companions, followers etc.

I have some ideas for all of you. For instance, since Gilian is dedicated healer, there will be Prestige Class similar to Wizard, but with healing in mind. All of you will have your chance to become something more and greater than it's usual for your races and classes. I know that usual approach to gaming is to make it as gritty as possible, but my games tend to be high powered - and very demanding of players.

But my aim is for all of you to have fun. This game quickly became my favorite - even compared to my RL games and I really hope that you all enjoy it.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Ilona Ebonblade wrote:
A lot of really awesome stuff.

Very, very well said. For the record, I'm also a professional martial artist (I'm a stage combat choreographer and I teach women's self defense and a couple different weapon arts.) I concur on all your examples.

As for the actual issue at hand, what the real problem seems to be is that the mechanics aren't backing up what a player envisions their character being capable of.

I'm sure we've all seen this before. The rules aren't perfect. The more in-depth your knowledge of them is, the less likely you are to run into this problem. It's part of teh learning curve we all went through. Chops is (admittedly) newer to the system than most of the rest of us and he's suffering a bit for it. His concerns for his character are completely valid and accurate.

The answer, I think, is not to look at the other characters an disect what makes them effective and wether or not those things are "balanced" or "min-maxed", but to simply find rules that will allow Chops to be the character his concept wants him to be.

That being the case, let's analyze his choices and see what they tell us-

(The following are my opinions and include some broad generalizations. Your Mileage May Vary, but probably not too much.)

Dwarg- Absolutely the biggest, toughest mother of all the available races. By virtue of that alone, Chops should be able to dish it and take it as well as damn near anyone.

Steelblooded- This path is about playing a character who is a *born* warrior. Weapons are as simple to him as walking is to most people. Not only does he learn tricks reserved for people who spend their lives devoted to training with a certain weapon (weapon focus, weapon specialization) he does it *without trying*.

So, just by virtue of the race and class, we have a guy who really should be *the most optimized fighter* in the party. Even if he wasn't a warrior class, he should still be able to fight as well as someone who is. (at least until later levels when BaB discrepancy starts to really make itself known.)

Defender In another game, these guys would be Paladins. They aren't really monks. They're more like fighters who just don't use weapons very much. They have a serious Multiple Attribute Deficiency problem (like paladins) and they tend to be very isolated in their niche. You can make a million different kinds of Fighters, Rogues and Casters. There's really only two kinds of Defenders- Grapple spec'ed combat controllers and Mobility spec'ed Caster-killers.

Trying to do anything else with them is probably going to end up just being frustrating and making the player wish he'd just been a rogue or a fighter. The trick is, people who tend to want to play Defenders go into it knowing that these limitations are inherent to the class, and are wanting to play "that guy". (clearly, Chops is "that guy")

So, all told, we have a guy who's naturally gifted with size and strength, a phenom with weapons, and trains long and hard to be as effective without them as most other people are with them.

Chops, by all rights, should be the most impressive combatant in the game.

The fact that he isn't shows pretty clearly that the Weapon Bond trait (which is responsible for most of the high numbers being tossed around) is a bit unbalanced.

As I said earlier, I don't like removing options from characters. I don't mind the high numbers at all, even though it does mean that the Healer has the same attack bonus as my Barbarian. I'm fine with that.

So what we need to do is find a way to give Chops a "boost" and maybe realign him a bit more in a direction that will really allow him to shine.

What I propose is that we create a Trait that gives Chops proficiency in his Axes (there's no reason he should have to waste a feat on that) and allows him to treat his Axes and his Unarmed attacks as if they were mechanically the same. By this I mean, he should be able to apply Master's Stike damage to his axes, Stun with them, use them as Defender weapons, ect. Call it One With the Axe or something.

It doesn't seem like much, but it will go a long way toward synchronizing the bonuses he will get from his class and his path, which I think will go a long way towards making him the character he should be.

I have some ideas for other ways to optimize Chops using some obscure feats, and a couple that are setting specific. I'm working on it right now and I'll post it when finished.


Female Human (Sarcosan) Fighter 2/ Chaneller 3

Weapon of the Blood
It is said that the soul of a Dwarf is forged in the form of an axe. In some rare few cases, a Dworg is born with a truly dwarven soul. A character with this trait may treat any ability, feat or class feature pertaining to natural attacks or an unarmed strike as also pertaining to any axe he weilds.


Ragnar, Illona, thanks you two. Ragnar pretty much hit in on the head what I was envisioning my character to do. I was going to have him basically run up to the enemy, sliding in to take out a kneecap (Scorpion Style) then pop them with the axe and get away towards something else to cripple. With this new issue, I was thinking that I should just stand in the way and fight defensively guarding the spellcasters until my BAB got high enough to compete.

I thought that One with the Weapon defender ability would allow Chops to use his axe for his defender abilities. I never really thought of the two routes that Ragnar mentions. grapple or mobility, but I wouldn't mind doing one of those routes, or attempt to mix the two. Since nightflier is kind enough to give me a re-do on my feats, and it looks like my heroic path, I'll have to look at the other ones harder.

I don't know what "DH's modified heroic paths" are though. I also don't know what he means by "investing in storytelling" since I feel that I have been pretty involved in the plot so far.

Edit: Sorry for hogging some attention here, but with more thinking about the "using an axe" I think it may be possible that One with the Weapon only applies to those specific weapons listed under the class description, hence the reason for this If when I level up, I suppose I should switch to that, losing the skill points. Also, when I was creating Chops, I was torn between Steelblooded, Painless and Ironborn for heroic paths. I think Ironborn fits better in general, but Steelblooded gave Chops the proficiency with the axes I needed him to be proficient with and I thought it was the coolest one. Painless fits his background pretty good, except Chops is a happy-go-lucky guy with the requisite dworg mood swings.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

It's been a long time since I came up with something that actually made me feel kind of bad for having come up with it, but given the idea of Chops being one hell of a bad-ass, here's a build I came up with that you're welcome to use some or all of. It's good. Maybe too good.

I tried to list the sources for everything. Let me know if you need any explanations. I only mapped it up through 15, cause beyond that is all just icing on the cake anyway.

1
2-W fighting
Power Attack (bonus)
Imp. Unarmed Strike (class)
Flying Kick (complete warrior) (class)
Weapon Focus (path)

2
Offensive tactics +1 (if their AC - your level is greater than 8, go with attack.)
Stunning Fist (class)
Defender Ability (speed training)

3
Strategic Blow (DR 3)
Improved Grapple (class)
Scorpion Style (defender)

4
Skilled Warrior- 2-w fighting
Precise Strike

5
Weapon Spec: axe,
Orc Fighting Initiate (Iron Handed Grapple to start)
Defender Ability (Rapid Strike)

6
Strategic blow DR 6
Incredible Speed +10

7
Offensive Tactics +2
Two Weapon Pounce (Player's Handbook 2)
Masterful Strike +1D6

8
Skilled Warrior, Grapple
Defender Ability (flurry attack)

9
Strategic Warrior, DR9
Pharaoh's Fist (sandstorm)

10
Precise strike DR 6
Improved Weapon Focus: axe

11 Offensive Tac. +3
Leap Attack (complete adventurer)
Defender Ability (offensive training)

12 Strat. Blow- DR 12

13 Skilled Warrior (non proficiency)
Two Weapon Rend (players handbook 2)
Masterful Strike +2D6

14
Untouchable
Precise strike, DR 9
Defender Ability (defensive mastery)

15
Improved Weapon Spec: Axe
Incredible Speed +10

So basically, what Chop's schtick becomes, is to move in, whack someone really hard, stun them, grapple them, pick them up, and then carry them back to the rest of us, all in one action. He can do all this by 3rd level.

here's how it works-

Charge (which activates Flying Kick and later leap Attack) with a Stunning Fist attempt. If he hits they save. Regardless of if they make it, he initiates a grapple (from Scorpion Style). If they are stunned, they can't really resist the grapple, so he takes the -20 on the grapple check to act as if he's not grappling someone (also from Scorpion Style). It doesn't matter what he rolls because it's essentially unopposed (what with them being stunned and all). As long as they are below his encumbrance rating, Chops just picks them up and uses Speed Training to take an extra move action to come right back to the safety of the party where he can choke them to death at his leisure.

As he goes up in level, this trick gets worse and worse. By the time he hits 7th level he'll actually get two attacks on his charge, both of with trigger the Stunning Fist/Scorpion's Grasp combo, and he won't even have any penalties for fighting with two weapons (between his path and his Defender ability, he completely negates his two-weapon fighting penalties.)

Orcish Fighting Initiate (from Steel and Shadow) is the gift that keeps on giving. Every level or so he'll be able to learn a new mini-feat that will enhance his ability to thrash the bad guys, starting with a nice +2 to damage while grappling, and also tossing in the ability to yank grappled opponents into his square, rather than him having to enter theirs. It's also a really nice Role-Playing feat allowing him to pull on both sides of his heritage and combine them into a really nasty combo of pain.

Pharaoh's Fist means that he actually hits the poor guy he's charging so hard that his friends get stunned too. Combine that with Offensive Training at 11th level, and he actually hits the poor guy so hard that he and his friends go blind.

Also, Chops doesn't give a damn about your Damage Reduction. At 10th level, he ignores 15 points of DR. Than means he can actually tear apart an Iron Golem with his bare hands.

Gotta run. Hope you enjoy my version of Chops 2.0


Thanks Ragnar. Don't feel bad about your character. It was the healer with an 8 Strength and the halfling blender that made me go, wtf did I do wrong with my build. I wasn't trying to rain on anyones parade. I just wanted to be as effective as the next PC. I'll look through your suggestions and see what some mean and incorporate them as Chops grows.

Edit: I don't think I am reading Scorpion Style the same way you are. It reduces speed to 5ft. I am not sure how useful that will be with Stunning Fist available. And I'm not sure what good an extra move action will do for the speed training.

feedback through level six, what do yo think?:
1
2-W fighting (lvl)
Power Attack (bonus)
Imp. Unarmed Strike (class)
Flying Kick (complete warrior) (class)
Weapon Focus (path)

2
Offensive tactics +1 (if their AC - your level is greater than 8, go with attack.)
Stunning Fist (class)
Defender Ability (speed training)
Improved Bull Rush or Overrun (class bonus)

3
Strategic Blow (DR 3)
Improved Grapple (class)
Circle Kick (Sword and Fist)(lvl)

4
Skilled Warrior- 2-w fighting
Precise Strike

5
Weapon Spec: axe,
Orc Fighting Initiate (Iron Handed Grapple to start)(lvl)
Defender Ability (Rapid Strike)

6
Strategic blow DR 6
Incredible Speed +10
Greater Bull Rush or Overrun (class bonus)

This takes quite a bit of time. My wife is wondering what I am doing here.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:


Edit: I don't think I am reading Scorpion Style the same way you are. It reduces speed to 5ft. I am not sure how useful that will be with Stunning Fist available. And I'm not sure what good an extra move action will do for the speed training.

Oops. Wrote Scorpion Style, what I meant was Scorpion's Grasp from the Sandstorm book.

So as not to infringe on copyright, I'll paraphrase- Basically the feat grants the ability to initiate a grapple as a free action if you successfully hit with an unarmed strike (or an axe hit, in your case). In addition, it allows you to take a -20 to a grapple check to act as if you weren't grappling while still maintaining a grapple. (the opponent keeps the grappled condition, but you don't, allowing you to act freely, dragging them around with you without penalty.)

As for speed training, it's a move action, which includes movement. This allows you to charge, and then run away. It's basically spring attack without the bogus prereqs.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:

6

Strategic blow DR 6
Incredible Speed +10
Greater Bull Rush or Overrun (class bonus)

Where are the class bonus feats from 2nd and 6th level coming from? I don['t see it anywhere, but I'll assume you're not mistaken.

Improved Sunder may be a better choice at 2nd level. There are sunder-based cultural fighting techniques for both Orcs and Dwarves which will allow Chops to not only have a near guaranteed chance of breaking things, but would also trip them for free when it works. This would also give Chops a reason to take Grapple training as a Defender, which really, he should have.

I'd also recommend Greater Grapple at 6th instead (from the Pathfinder Core book. Not only does it give you an additional grapple bonus, it also allows you to make a Grapple action as a Move action.

Combine this with Speed training and you could make 3 grapple actions a round (eewww.)

So with these two, at 6th level the combo becomes charge in, hit, stun, grapple, use move action from Speed Training to make a Grapple Check to Sunder, if it works, Trip for free. Then laugh at the stunned, grappled, prone, weaponless moron.

Dark Archive

DH is Doomed Hero, Ragnar's player. He modified the heroic paths presented in Midnight Core rules to work better with Pathfinder. Ilona is using his version of Charismatic Heroic Path.

What I meant by "investing in storytelling" is that, essentially, I will let you be more powerful or tougher at certain level than normal, if it makes for good story. You role playing is excellent and I enjoy it, but in my games you have more freedom than usual. For instance, you recently got in touch with the spirits of some ancient dwarves and you used your fate point to gain full understanding of Ancient Dwarven language. When you reach 2nd level, you will modify your character and change the feats etc. gained at 1st level in addition to taking new stuff gained at 2nd level. How will you change 1st level stuff? You fall into trance suddenly and you dream of life of one of those ancient dwarves. A part of his memories become yours and replace some of yours. You gain part of his knowledge, represented by his feats, proficiency with certain weapons and languages, but you balance that by loosing something as well. We do not want you to loose anything mechanically, so I will limit you just a little in your role playing opportunities. For instance, that dwarf was a warrior prince of an ancient long forgotten clan. He gains certain measure of life living through you and he speaks to you in his dreams, urging you to find out what happened with his clan. Etc. All of this is just an idea that I got right now, but it should work as an example of ways you can modify your character and not break the story. For me, the story is more important than the rules.


Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:


Where are the class bonus feats from 2nd and 6th level coming from? I don['t see it anywhere, but I'll assume you're not mistaken.

nightflier ramped up Defender to include bonus feats whenever a monks get them. When I chose the feats though, I forgot that they have to be taken from a certain list.

Monk's bonus feats:
Any lvl: Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything.
6th lvl: Gorgon’s Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility.
10th level: Improved Critical, Medusa’s Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack.

I was thinking dodge or combat reflexes at level 2.


Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
I was thinking dodge or combat reflexes at level 2.

...unless any "unarmed attack feat" would qualify given the expanded scope of this campaign beyond the core rules. I have always thought that dodge was pretty good, but it seems like that is not the general consensus.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
I was thinking dodge or combat reflexes at level 2.
...unless any "unarmed attack feat" would qualify given the expanded scope of this campaign beyond the core rules. I have always thought that dodge was pretty good, but it seems like that is not the general consensus.

Gotcha. I must have missed that.

I'd bet that you might be able to convince our GM to let you take feats that were appropriately tailored to your character's particular fighting style. Precedent is with us. There are a whole bunch of variant monk progressions in the Unearthed Arcana book.

If he'll allow Scorpion's Grasp instead, it really is a Grapple Monk's best friend.


Male Dorn Channeler - 1 (Spiritual)
nightflier wrote:

DH is Doomed Hero, Ragnar's player. He modified the heroic paths presented in Midnight Core rules to work better with Pathfinder. Ilona is using his version of Charismatic Heroic Path.

What I meant by "investing in storytelling" is that, essentially, I will let you be more powerful or tougher at certain level than normal, if it makes for good story. You role playing is excellent and I enjoy it, but in my games you have more freedom than usual. For instance, you recently got in touch with the spirits of some ancient dwarves and you used your fate point to gain full understanding of Ancient Dwarven language. When you reach 2nd level, you will modify your character and change the feats etc. gained at 1st level in addition to taking new stuff gained at 2nd level. How will you change 1st level stuff? You fall into trance suddenly and you dream of life of one of those ancient dwarves. A part of his memories become yours and replace some of yours. You gain part of his knowledge, represented by his feats, proficiency with certain weapons and languages, but you balance that by loosing something as well. We do not want you to loose anything mechanically, so I will limit you just a little in your role playing opportunities. For instance, that dwarf was a warrior prince of an ancient long forgotten clan. He gains certain measure of life living through you and he speaks to you in his dreams, urging you to find out what happened with his clan. Etc. All of this is just an idea that I got right now, but it should work as an example of ways you can modify your character and not break the story. For me, the story is more important than the rules.

I just want to add that the first time I played midnight I don't think I actually killed anything untill 3rd lvl. DH was my GM and it was my first game. I was so taken in by the story however that I dident mind getting the s*$& kick out of me every time and oh how I almost died so often. In retrospect I love what it did for my charecter because I had an nice arch of going from "out of my league" to "Bad ass". As long as you realize this and can play it up then you should be all set.

Just a quick note. That's kinda what I'm going for with this guy. He actually pretty good stat wise with a sword but story wise it makes no sense so I don't think he will do much with it. Just wanted to put that out there.


male Dorn Channeler 1 (spiritual)

Oh, BTW profile is all ready to go.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
gabboge wrote:
I was so taken in by the story however that I dident mind getting the s&*~ kick out of me every time and oh how I almost died so often.

Hehe. I loved the beginning of that game. Nothing like dropping a Stone Golem in the middle of a first level encounter to really remind them that Midnight doesn't play fair.


We seem to have a very wise party.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2

Info dump for the game-

Against the Shadow is a fan site for the Midnight setting. it is pretty much *the* place for information and discussion of the world our game is set in. The community is pretty amazing, it's fairly small and chock full of really smart, creative people, including a fair number of people who have helped design the world. We love new blood, so check it out.

Darkness Falls is the Midnight SRD. All the info in all of the sourcebooks is there. It's also really nicely laid out.

The Pathfinder Paths can be found here. The ones that were the most powerful I didn't touch, but a few of you may want to use these versions instead of the ones from the book. They are (I feel) both more interesting and more balanced for Pathfinder, while still keeping as much to the feel of the original as I could.


nightflier, is this what you had in mind?

Chops' Dream:
During the night, Chops turned fitfully in his slumber, moving as if he were wrestling some terrible enemy. He groans, jerks, and spasms. What is going on in his head?

“What is this?” the huge, ancient orc asked. “You are of my kin?” The orc, old beyond the years of any orc anyone has ever seen, because they don’t die of natural causes, studied the young dworg intensely. “What kind of orc are you?” The old orc, despite his apparent age, effortlessly lifted Chops off the ground with one hand, holding him close to his face.

“What is your name son?”

“Chops.”

“You’re real name!” With his other hand, the orc grasped Chops by the skull, releasing the hand which had grabbed Chops shirtfront, and lets him dangle from the large, outstretched hand. “Durathoin? What kind of name is that for an orc? He spat into the young dworg’s face. “I see you carry the axe of an dwarf. Show me, my young kin, how you use it.”

At this, the old orc released the dworg to fall to the ground and takes up a fighting stance. “Son, you had better show me proud, despite the taint of the runty mountain dwellers. Attack!” Chops charged the large orc with the urutuk raised to strike, but at the last second, as the orc brings his verdatch to bear, Chops jabbed his knuckles into the muscles above the knee, then sidesteps and swings his axe at the flank of the orc. The orc stumbled a bit, but then swings his great sword, catching Chops in the shoulder. Chops scrambled back about twenty feet from his attacker.

“What was that?” the elder orc asked flexing his leg, then laughed in a grinding roar. “Oh, I get it. That was supposed to slow me down?” Then the orc charged the distance, verdatch held high, and leaped at Chops with a powerful kick against the his chest, which knocked the dworg off his feat, supine on the earth. For a second, Chops laid there, trying to force air into his punished lungs. “That’s how an orc fights! Get up!”

And Chops did get up, and they fought all through the night. The old orc, breaking down every one of Chops’ weak attacks. Slowly the young dworg learns the new skills and feats that will carry him through battles. Battle seemed timeless to the dworg, with the orc constantly berating him and beating him. Yet Chops doesn’t tire and his wounds didn’t hinder him. Finally, the old orc stops the battle. Chops saw that the orc wasn’t looking at him anymore, but to another figure, which lumbered out of the fiery mists.

“Oh how my race has fallen,” the old orc whispered. “To mate with dwarves instead of our own. You should be ashamed, young kin.” the newcomer was also an orc. This one younger, and covered in scars of battle. Both arms were covered in the markings of his kills. “Durathoin, meet your father. Show him what you have learned.

With this Chops screams with rage. The orc that had taken his mother and made her a pariah. The orc who infected his bloodline with its fowl taint. Now was his chance to show the orc who planted the seed for his life, to pay for his misdeeds. The new orc grunted as Chops charged in with a flying kick of his own. A snapping sound is heard as the ribs of the orc crack under the weight of the dworg, concentrated in his boot. Then Chops lifted his dwarven urutuk high in both hands, and with a powerful blow, cleaves the skull off of his father.

And with this final vision, Chops awakens.


male Dorn Channeler 1 (spiritual)

Oh Ragnar/DH. Is that stuff about orcs dreams just in our game? Just wondering because as a dreamer I will be able to enter peoples dreams eventualy and I was wondering if what happans to orcs while they sleep in our games is the same as this one.

Dark Archive

Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:

nightflier, is this what you had in mind?

** spoiler omitted **...

Yeah, that will work when you reach second level.


male Dorn Barbarian 2, Spiritual Channeler 2
Anvinder wrote:
Oh Ragnar/DH. Is that stuff about orcs dreams just in our game? Just wondering because as a dreamer I will be able to enter peoples dreams eventualy and I was wondering if what happans to orcs while they sleep in our games is the same as this one.

That's cannon. Izrador sends orcs nightmares of their women and children being brutalized by elves and dwarves every night. There's no such thing as peace for orcs, not even in their sleep.


male Dorn Channeler 1 (spiritual)
Ragnar Death-Speaker wrote:
Anvinder wrote:
Oh Ragnar/DH. Is that stuff about orcs dreams just in our game? Just wondering because as a dreamer I will be able to enter peoples dreams eventualy and I was wondering if what happans to orcs while they sleep in our games is the same as this one.
That's cannon. Izrador sends orcs nightmares of their women and children being brutalized by elves and dwarves every night. There's no such thing as peace for orcs, not even in their sleep.

That will be a fun scene when Anvinder unknowingly pops into an orcs dream.


nightflier wrote:
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:

nightflier, is this what you had in mind?

** spoiler omitted **...

Yeah, that will work when you reach second level.

Cool. I figured I would get Chops' ancestors sparring in his dreams.


male Dorn Channeler 1 (spiritual)

Em, I don't want to seem too rules lawyery but I was reading the IC and someone was going to use magic missile and I had a few things to say.

First, you can't choose a a greater magic spell with your mage craft feat. And second is that greater magic spells cost 2 spell points extra.

Source: http://darknessfalls.leaderdesslok.com/character_feats.htm#Magecraft

Not certain the source of the extra cost rule but I believe its in the core rule book 2nd ed.

Yea, magic missles require 2 feats and 3 spell points.

Dark Archive

Anvinder wrote:

Em, I don't want to seem too rules lawyery but I was reading the IC and someone was going to use magic missile and I had a few things to say.

First, you can't choose a a greater magic spell with your mage craft feat. And second is that greater magic spells cost 2 spell points extra.

Source: http://darknessfalls.leaderdesslok.com/character_feats.htm#Magecraft

Not certain the source of the extra cost rule but I believe its in the core rule book 2nd ed.

Yea, magic missles require 2 feats and 3 spell points.

Yes, I know. Eric did not read the rules in full, I suppose, but I haven't reacted since I have already planed something.


nightflier wrote:
Yes, I know. Eric did not read the rules in full, I suppose, but I haven't reacted since I have already planed something.

Eeek!?!

Dark Archive

Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
nightflier wrote:
Yes, I know. Eric did not read the rules in full, I suppose, but I haven't reacted since I have already planed something.
Eeek!?!

Why do you guys always think that the worst will happen? :)


nightflier wrote:
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
nightflier wrote:
Yes, I know. Eric did not read the rules in full, I suppose, but I haven't reacted since I have already planed something.
Eeek!?!
Why do you guys always think that the worst will happen? :)

Oh, no. That was an "Eek, I think combat is going to end." Really.


Male Daytona 500 DM / 12

Great job on the combat. That was about as smooth a combat I've ever done in PbP, especially with that many combatants.


Anvinder wrote:

Em, I don't want to seem too rules lawyery but I was reading the IC and someone was going to use magic missile and I had a few things to say.

First, you can't choose a a greater magic spell with your mage craft feat. And second is that greater magic spells cost 2 spell points extra.

Source: http://darknessfalls.leaderdesslok.com/character_feats.htm#Magecraft

Not certain the source of the extra cost rule but I believe its in the core rule book 2nd ed.

Yea, magic missles require 2 feats and 3 spell points.

good catch there, gabboge. I need to read these rules better, he he. Since Nigthflier is ok with the spell selection, i will adjust the SP used for the MM spells she cast. I could not find where it says it takes 2 addition spell points to cast Greater magic though, Nightflier, I like the change though.


nightflier wrote:
Chops the Defender Dworg wrote:
nightflier wrote:
Yes, I know. Eric did not read the rules in full, I suppose, but I haven't reacted since I have already planed something.
Eeek!?!
Why do you guys always think that the worst will happen? :)

No we are ok, really, he he.

Edit, nightflier, I left a hook in the IC post for how she knows the spell, he he.


nightflier wrote:
Anvinder wrote:

Em, I don't want to seem too rules lawyery but I was reading the IC and someone was going to use magic missile and I had a few things to say.

First, you can't choose a a greater magic spell with your mage craft feat. And second is that greater magic spells cost 2 spell points extra.

Source: http://darknessfalls.leaderdesslok.com/character_feats.htm#Magecraft

Not certain the source of the extra cost rule but I believe its in the core rule book 2nd ed.

Yea, magic missles require 2 feats and 3 spell points.

Yes, I know. Eric did not read the rules in full, I suppose, but I haven't reacted since I have already planed something.

*cue Elan...Dun dun DuNNN!

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