Of course, the trick to interesting flawed characters is to play them with flaws. That's probably what DMs get tired of: the guy with a 6 Charisma character who plays him like he has a 10 or 12, basically ignoring the "flaw" by never doing anything that requires him to roll a Cha check.
It's not limited to low-Charisma characters, though. How many "dumb fighter types" who dumped their Intelligence suddenly turn into tactical geniuses on the battlefield "because they're fighters so they know how to do that?"
And it can be just as annoying the other way around. One of my stratospheric-point-buy players ran a PC with the highest Charisma in the party -- and then never used it. His backstory was being a guy who knew how to manipulate people and always get what he wanted, but it never occurred to him in game to, you know, talk to the NPCs.
It's not the stats getting dumped; it's incompetent players doing the dumping.
Of course, the trick to interesting flawed characters is to play them with flaws. That's probably what DMs get tired of: the guy with a 6 Charisma character who plays him like he has a 10 or 12, basically ignoring the "flaw" by never doing anything that requires him to roll a Cha check.
It's not limited to low-Charisma characters, though. How many "dumb fighter types" who dumped their Intelligence suddenly turn into tactical geniuses on the battlefield "because they're fighters so they know how to do that?"
And it can be just as annoying the other way around. One of my stratospheric-point-buy players ran a PC with the highest Charisma in the party -- and then never used it. His backstory was being a guy who knew how to manipulate people and always get what he wanted, but it never occurred to him in game to, you know, talk to the NPCs.
It's not the stats getting dumped; it's incompetent players doing the dumping.
+1
I dump intelligence a lot. That way I have a much better chance of playing the character more realistically.
Honestly, I don't actually mind people having dump stats. What bothers me is the prevalence of dumping Charisma. I'd like to see all stats-dumped about equally. Other than Charisma, the stat-dumping is pretty fair - some will dump Int, some will dump Dex or Wis, many options. But those dumps are (compared to Charisma) difficult because they actively change your character's mechanical layout.
That is why I want to tie an additional mechanic to Charisma that changes the impact of Charisma for every character on a fundamental level. That is why I proposed the caster-level modification based on Charisma. Such a mechanic could change the dumping landscape to something more even (which I'm fine with and find desirable).
The responses to the proposal have been knee-jerk love, knee-jerk hate, and deliberated approval and deliberated reservations. It would require actual testing to see how people react to it in-game and whether the net good outweighs the net bad.
I was considering to use it in a pbp-campaign I'll be starting; but decided against it. The pbp-campaign would be a long-term commitment and I don't want to have something as experimental as this influencing the game. Perhaps I'll run a couple of one-shots at home or society-scenarios as pbp at some stage that will use this proposal as an experiment. :)
Honestly, even as a player I sometimes get tired with knowing that Charisma, by and large, is going to be the stat that I am going to make the lowest. So I can definitely understand the desire to find a way to prevent that.
I just don't think there's any particularly useful way to go about resolving the issue without making larger changes to the system. Hell, sometimes I wonder if there should be a Charisma stat at all. It's almost as prone to argumentation as the alignment system.
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So of course the question becomes: Should Makoa get a +2 bonus to Charisma so his is no longer an 8? XD
*puts on serious hat*
I agree that Charisma should have something tied to it that makes it 'equal' to all the other stats when it comes to dumping. That is one of the reasons I liked the feat from Complete Adventurer(Scoundrel?) called Force of Personality, which let you use Cha for Will saves instead of Wis.
I don't think Charisma is a bad stat - there are plenty of ways to make it a powerhouse if you put effort into it. In DM Barcas' Kingmaker campaign I play a paladin with 1 level of oracle of lore to get Charisma instead of Dexterity for AC and Reflex. Also have Noble Scion (War) from the campaign setting to use Charisma for Initiative. The character has great Charisma and it combos well on all fronts.
The problem isn't that Charisma isn't good enough if you make effort. The problem is that it isn't good enough when you don't make effort. It needs to have more impact for every character.
So of course the question becomes: Should Makoa get a +2 bonus to Charisma so his is no longer an 8? XD
Aw, him's just a big cuddly half-orcish teddy bear with sharp fangs, yes, him is!
He can't be that off-putting if Douena likes him. Then again, I'm betting Pezock's Charisma isn't his strong suit, and he's getting to be her BFF.
Ironically enough, Gelik probably has the highest Charisma of any of the NPCs, and he's the one she can't stand!
Heh, so true! Pezock's Charisma is 8. Except for Ishirou (Cha 10), the other NPCs have fairly high Charismas, and yes, Gelik's is the highest!
The NPCs' dump stat is Wisdom. Except for Jask, all of them have Wis 8. :)
That's interesting. I've always interpreted fire resistance as working against heat dangers as well (likewise cold resistance prevent cold environment dangers), though now I look at it, it's not explicitly stated. Particularly, the nonlethal damage from heat exhaustion is not stated as being nonlethal fire damage.
Still, I'm inclined to go the way I've always gone, the invulnerable rager archetype notwithstanding. The fire resistance granted by the archetype starts out quite small (1 point for every three levels past 3rd, which means it's resistance 1 at 6th level--it doesn't get the resistance at the same time as the endure elements ability). As such, there is, to begin with, not enough resistance to negate a high roll on 1d4 of damage. Urza's resistance is 5, however, and would thus negate all the nonlethal damage even with a maximum roll.
Edit: And as a further example, note that creatures immune to fire (such as red dragons or efreet) don't gain endure elements as well. They're just assumed to be able to take the heat. :)
I've always played it the way Lorekeeper says. But I'm fine with going by our DM's ruling. That works in our favor anyway. :)
I can certainly see your point - and really don't mind how we play it.
Given that the situation is more muddled, I think in "my" games - in the future - I'll now use the fire resistance value as a bonus on the Fortitude check. That makes sense to me at least. Fire immunity, yea, they are definitely not effected by the heat.
Hey :) - I just wanted to let everybody know that South Africa is celebrating National Cleavage Day (yes, seriously). As such it is Jerall and my civic and patriotic duty to encourage cleavage ogling. We moved to do so by posting two new class options:
Crimson Coquette (Jerall's bard archetype)
Oracle of Lust (my submission, complete with curse)
Please have fun and enjoy this auspicious day! Comments here or on tenletter are welcome! :)
Yeah, the only one I remember is Sasha's boon. I know we all listened to Aerys' poem and were supposed to get something from that, and Jask was going to teach us something that woud take 8 hours we haven't taken yet, and Gelik, I think, offered to teach something but I don't know if he ever did.
Yeah, the only one I remember is Sasha's boon. I know we all listened to Aerys' poem and were supposed to get something from that, and Jask was going to teach us something that woud take 8 hours we haven't taken yet, and Gelik, I think, offered to teach something but I don't know if he ever did.
The only one you've received so far is Sasha's boon (except Makoa, who didn't take part in the training). You've almost completed Aerys's poem, but not quite. When you do, you will all gain a +1 bonus on Will saves versus compulsion effects.
If you do speech training with Gelik, you can gain a +1 to the save DC of any charm or language-dependent effect. No one's taken him up on the offer yet.
Jask can share some mantras and chants that will grant a +2 bonus on concentration checks. Makoa started training with him, but illnesses and various other things interrupted the training. No one else has started this training.
You have not yet completed Ishirou's quest, so he hasn't offered anything yet. :)
If you do speech training with Gelik, you can gain a +1 to the save DC of any charm or language-dependent effect. No one's taken him up on the offer yet.
Lorenz has taken Gelik up on the offer, there just hasn't been any time to start training. Every time he tries to spend time with Gelik to do so, everyone insists on leaving the camp and he gets talked into leaving with them.
Lorenz has taken Gelik up on the offer, there just hasn't been any time to start training. Every time he tries to spend time with Gelik to do so, everyone insists on leaving the camp and he gets talked into leaving with them.If you do speech training with Gelik, you can gain a +1 to the save DC of any charm or language-dependent effect. No one's taken him up on the offer yet.
Ah yes. I stand corrected. Poor Lorenz. :)
Lorenz has taken Gelik up on the offer, there just hasn't been any time to start training. Every time he tries to spend time with Gelik to do so, everyone insists on leaving the camp and he gets talked into leaving with them.If you do speech training with Gelik, you can gain a +1 to the save DC of any charm or language-dependent effect. No one's taken him up on the offer yet.
You realize Lorenz doesn't have any charm or language-dependent effects unless he gives in and takes that level of bard, right? ;)
"She is excellent," Pezock interrupts, pointing to Douena. Then he points to Lorenz: "He is terrible." Then Makoa: "So is he." Then Urza: "So is he." Then Mahjik: "And so is he, even if he claims to have been studying the short one. I don't know about the rest of you. I, of course, am unsurpassed in my ability."
Absolutely funny! Everytime I read it I laugh!
Such a great character!
"Can you give us a better description of Mr. Duck? Could there be more pearls there than you have out? How many cannibals did you see? Does anybody have any shells or something to be the cannibals?"
This also keeps me rolling!
Great stuff, people! Keep it going!
:D
Had an unexpected internet downtime the last 3 days - will catch-up tomorrow. Hopefully at work if it isn't too busy...
Lorenz has taken Gelik up on the offer, there just hasn't been any time to start training. Every time he tries to spend time with Gelik to do so, everyone insists on leaving the camp and he gets talked into leaving with them.You realize Lorenz doesn't have any charm or language-dependent effects unless he gives in and takes that level of bard, right? ;)
Yep! Lorenz is just pushing for it because he likes Gelik, I don't really care about the bonuses OOC. :)
Famous last words...
I have a bad feeling about this.
I love it when a plan comes together.
Sounds like we have a plan.
Whose idea was this?
I'm getting to old for this.
That's a good idea, Douena.
"That's a good idea, Douena!" she says and walks over to the swing.
Everyone keep a watchful eye on Sasha. She is now obviously marked for death.
Everyone keep a watchful eye on Sasha. She is now obviously marked for death.
Oh, I'm afraid it's much too late now. Watchful eye or no, she's doomed. Utterly doomed. :)
Everyone keep a watchful eye on Sasha. She is now obviously marked for death.Oh, I'm afraid it's much too late now. Watchful eye or no, she's doomed. Utterly doomed. :)
I can see it now. Alton's going to eat her.
I officially love Pezock now. Can he come with us if/when we leave the island? Imagine the chaos he and Douena could leave in their wake!
Pezock has certainly taken on a life of his own, way beyond anything I (or the adventure, I think) expected. He's huge fun to play. As for leaving the island, you're free to try to convince him. I'm not sure how pleased the rest of the party will be with Douena if she does that though. :)
"Fine. We eat! Then we kill! It will demonstrate our superiority to the cannibals, who kill first and then eat."
This must surely be Pezock's finest line yet.
Oh, and Pezock can certainly come along. He's more vibrant to interact with than Gelik, Aerys or Ishirou.
Oh, and Pezock can certainly come along. He's more vibrant to interact with than Gelik, Aerys or Ishirou.
Unless you're Lorenz (Gelik) or Urza (who has the hots for Aerys). ;)
Unless you're Lorenz (Gelik) or Urza (who has the hots for Aerys). ;)
Exactly! I like Pezock too, but Gelik is awesome.
*bump* just 'cause this thread's about to fall into the archives and I don't want to have to go digging for it.
Crisis! I want my Ultimate Magic PDF! I can almost smell it, the scent of fresh download streaming through the ether! Maybe today the email gods will be kind and notify me of shipping.
Check out Mahjik's Stealth roll, putting Douena and Pezock to shame! I guess Pezock isn't complaining now.
Check out Mahjik's Stealth roll, putting Douena and Pezock to shame! I guess Pezock isn't complaining now.
He's not complaining, but he's only like to grudgingly acknowledge it, at best. :)
Crisis! I want my Ultimate Magic PDF! I can almost smell it, the scent of fresh download streaming through the ether! Maybe today the email gods will be kind and notify me of shipping.
[evil GM gloat]I got mine! Haha![/evil GM Gloat]
Crisis! I want my Ultimate Magic PDF! I can almost smell it, the scent of fresh download streaming through the ether! Maybe today the email gods will be kind and notify me of shipping.[evil GM gloat]I got mine! Haha![/evil GM Gloat]
So may we assume that all the cannibals will now suddenly be using some sort of casting-related archetype that we've never heard of before? ;)
People had better make room, because I'm pretty sure I'm going to be eating cannibal leader and Urza's joining me for lunch! O:<
I've finally got my PDF. The amount of awesome in this book is hard to express with something has cumbersome as language.
Too late now for mine to ship out today. :P Hopefully tomorrow.
Someone needs to take out that cannibal leader before he shakes off Urza's color spray. I think he killed Aerys!
Good luck Joana! The book contains so much in terms of amazing, it's hard to explain - there's just so much going on in there. Most classes get both archetypes, as well as unique additional options: you must have seen that bards can get "masterpieces" for example; likewise monks can take vows (including the infamous vow of poverty); inquisitors can take unique "domains" called inquisitions; there are spells that are essentially unique for monks; just. so. much. awesome!
So, seems like a good time to discuss the confusingly-written spell message.
School transmutation [language-dependent]; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a piece of copper wire)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/level
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check. You point your finger at each creature you want to receive the message. When you whisper, the whispered message is audible to all targeted creatures within range. Magical silence, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal (or a thin sheet of lead), or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks the spell. The message does not have to travel in a straight line. It can circumvent a barrier if there is an open path between you and the subject, and the path's entire length lies within the spell's range. The creatures that receive the message can whisper a reply that you hear. The spell transmits sound, not meaning; it doesn't transcend language barriers. To speak a message, you must mouth the words and whisper.
If you need line of sight to the target, then why specify that stone, metal, wood, and dirt block the spell? All of them block line of sight. Also, the spell can circumvent a barrier as long as there's an open path within the range.
But then, if you don't have line of sight, how do you point your finger at a subject you can't see?
My group has ruled that you need line of sight at the beginning of the spell to point your finger and select who is included in the message but after that, if line of sight is lost by one of the targets going into another room, for example (with less than 3 feet of wood wall in between), they can still receive and send messages. Every original target hears what the caster whispers as long as they're within the spell's range and not blocked, but only the caster can hear their responses.
If it works differently in your game, that's fine -- as I said, it's a poorly-written spell description -- but Douena ought to be familiar with the way it works in this world.
If you need line of sight to the target, then why specify that stone, metal, wood, and dirt block the spell? All of them block line of sight. Also, the spell can circumvent a barrier as long as there's an open path within the range.
But then, if you don't have line of sight, how do you point your finger at a subject you can't see?
My group has ruled that you need line of sight at the beginning of the spell to point your finger and select who is included in the message but after that, if line of sight is lost by one of the targets going into another room, for example (with less than 3 feet of wood wall in between), they can still receive and send messages. Every original target hears what the caster whispers as long as they're within the spell's range and not blocked, but only the caster can hear their responses.
If it works differently in your game, that's fine -- as I said, it's a poorly-written spell description -- but Douena ought to be familiar with the way it works in this world.
Hmmm... That's a good point. I have always gone by the pointing of a finger indicating line of sight, but the fact that it specifies materials that block and that it doesn't have to go in a straight line really does contradict that. Your interpretation that the finger pointing is just the first time and then you're free to whisper back and forth makes good sense. I'm willing to go with that as I think it fits the confusing wording a little better.
So Douena is free to communicate with the others even when she can't see them (unless blocked by the appropriate materials as stated), and they can communicate back to her.
People had better make room, because I'm pretty sure I'm going to be eating cannibal leader and Urza's joining me for lunch! O:<
Now's your chance, Makoa! Hopefully Jask will check Aerys on his initiative.
I fear Dragonborn has forgotten us again.
The cannibal promptly obeys Lorenz's command and falls over. Well, it's more like the cannibal screams, coughs up blood, and collapses, but the result is the same. :)
Gee, who would have thought Lorenz could be so forceful? I guess all those public speaking lessons with Gelik paid off. :)
The cannibal promptly obeys Lorenz's command and falls over. Well, it's more like the cannibal screams, coughs up blood, and collapses, but the result is the same. :)Gee, who would have thought Lorenz could be so forceful? I guess all those public speaking lessons with Gelik paid off. :)
That's right! Now Lorenz not only has a silver tongue but an edged one as well!
Wait, that doesn't sound quite right... :)
Urza pours a potion down Aerys's throat, but unfortunately, it has no effect. She is dead.
:(
I think that's the signal for Urza to start going all Jack Bauer on the cannibals.