Pezock looks momentarily annoyed. "So we make a plan to kill the cannibals and then kill the cannibals," he says. "I suggest we stake out the area around the village and find a good spot to lay an ambush. And then we kill them!"Oh man, cracking me UP, Navior! I totally freaking love this guy!
Pc: "What is your plan again Pezock? It seems quite complex."
Pezock: "KILL! KILL! KILL!"
Pc: "I see." Rubs chin as he ponders the intricate plan.
Awesome stuff! :D
Glad you're enjoying him. He's a lot of fun for me, too.
However, I'm wondering how long it will take before the party gets fed up of his brusque manner and decides to drop him off one of the Shiv's many tall cliffs. :)
Aw, we're just one big, happy family. No one gets left behind!
(Besides, we haven't done it to Gelik yet. :P)
I'm kind of expecting him to have a breakdown, assuming we succeed in killing the cannibals. What will he live for when they're gone?
Hey Navior, is it too late to go for a DM roll for hit points? I'm feeling a little more crazy today.
If it is, no problem. I just thought I'd ask.
Hey Navior, is it too late to go for a DM roll for hit points? I'm feeling a little more crazy today.
If it is, no problem. I just thought I'd ask.
Sure, no problem.
Lorenz really isn't blessed with good luck, is he? Well, at least it isn't lower than your original roll.
Man. That's just funny. But as you say, it's no worse!
Hey, I remembered Heal, I remembered Swim; I can't remember everything! Besides, I think, as well-meaning as Douena is, she's just too blunt to be a proper diplomat.
Ironically, she's better at getting people to trust her when she's lying to them than when she's being sincere. :)
Pezock pauses for a moment. "You're right," he says. "We don't want to scare them away. Tell that chatty one over there--what's his name? Loren?--to keep his voice down."
Oh my gosh! I just died on this one! :D
Poor Lorenz! He just don't get no respect! :)
(Keepin' me rollin' Navior! Keepin' me rollin'!)
Hey, Dragonborn3, we aren't losing you, are we? Makoa's been awfully quiet lately!
Just saw him in another thread several minutes ago. Hey, Makoa! Level up! :)
Sorry guys, but it's daytime in game and there's no moon to howl at!
I've just been busy, and when that happens I tend to forget my characters(or at least some of them, don't really know why). :(
How could you forget us?!? *reels back, stricken* Douena is wounded! Wounded! ;)
How could you forget us?!? *reels back, stricken* Douena is wounded! Wounded! ;)
That was exactly the way I was going to respond. Now we know where we stand on Dragonborn's list of priorities!
It's going to be slow over the next couple days again, folks. I'm in the process of preparing to move. Friday is moving day, so I will probably be completely absent that day. Things should return to normal by the end of the weekend.
The slowness will give Dragonborn a chance to update Makoa to level 3! Hint! Hint! :)
Good luck with the move, Navior! I hate moving. Something always gets lost, and something always gets broken.
Tell me about it. I hate moving too. I still have a ton of packing to do. No matter how much I do, I never seem to dent it.
Are you moving far or just across town?
Yeah, moving royally sucks. And man, quite a few GMs seem to be doing that this month!
Anyway, good luck with the move. I hope it goes as painlessly as such a thing can go.
Are you moving far or just across town?
Just across town. It's only a 10-minute drive to our new place. Once we've loaded the moving truck, we'll get to unload it again almost immediately. And then unpack! Hours and hours of work for just a 10-minute journey. :)
Thanks for the well-wishes everyone!
Hey all!
The move is over and the packing is...well, not over, but things are settling down. It took a lot longer to get things done on Friday than expected, but it got done. I am now exhausted.
I will update the game in the morning!
Makoa is obviously suffering from some form of tropical amnesia. Quick! Everyone jump him so we can extract the brain worms!
Also, he is refusing to evolve, much as Pikachu wouldn't evolve into a Raichu, wanting to remain a cute and cuddly big-bitey-guy for all eternity.
So, what would happen if one of the cannibals tried to move into Douena's square, not knowing she's there? Or Makoa, for that matter?
Of course, cannibal 2 is unlikely to move, since he can't take a 5-foot step in difficult terrain (unless there's something we don't know about him) and would be taking AoOs from 3 combatants he knows about....
EDIT: Ironically enough, there's an active thread asking a similar question.
So, what would happen if one of the cannibals tried to move into Douena's square, not knowing she's there? Or Makoa, for that matter?
Of course, cannibal 2 is unlikely to move, since he can't take a 5-foot step in difficult terrain (unless there's something we don't know about him) and would be taking AoOs from 3 combatants he knows about....
EDIT: Ironically enough, there's an active thread asking a similar question.
Yeah, that's an interesting question that I've had come up in games before. If the individual is moving through the square with the unseen character, I rule it like many in the other thread have stated, as a sort of overrun. The unseen character can choose to let the individual pass without that individual ever being aware of the character's presence, or the character can block, making his/her presence known.
If the individual is stopping in the unseen character's square and the unseen character does not choose to block, it becomes a little more complicated, since rules as written, you can't share squares (unless there's a big enough size difference). In this case, I generally allow the individual a free additional Perception check to notice the hidden character (with a bonus generally around +4 or so, depending on the circumstances). If the individual still fails to notice the hidden character, I do allow them to share the square. However, any additional actions taken by that individual bring with them a chance of accidentally bumping into the hidden character. I generally set that chance at 50%, but I have to admit, it hasn't happened often enough for me to come up with a perfect system for assigning a chance. Any actions taken by the hidden character suffer a -4 penalty (as if squeezing through a tight space).
This has worked fairly well on the few occasions it has actually come up. I am, however, open to suggestions for refining it.
As a DM I've always pretty much ruled that if someone entered the space of someone that cannot be seen, they automatically discover the presence of the hidden person.
Of course if the PC or NPC is invisible, there's still the miss chance in an attack. But in my mind, it's pretty obvious that if you're stepping into that space you're going to bump into them. Besides, that's how a lot of hidden people/ creatures are generally discovered in books and movies.
In certain circumstances I might allow the hidden person a free five foot step, if they're in a position that will allow for one and then a new perception check for the person stepping into that space to see if they'll notice the movement.
My problem with automatically bumping into the unseen person is that a 5x5 square contains quite a bit of space (25 square feet). You could fit several people in one without them touching each other. Of course, they have to line themselves up quite deliberately to achieve it. If the unseen person is deliberately avoiding the other one, I can easily imagine her ducking out of the way and sidestepping to avoid being bumped into. Not a simple task, mind you, so there's still a good chance of getting bumped. Perhaps that chance should be based on the skill of the person hiding rather than a flat percentage?
Of course, the next step to this whole problem is, what happens when two invisible/hidden creatures, both unaware of each other, try to enter the same space? :)
Also, he is refusing to evolve, much as Pikachu wouldn't evolve into a Raichu, wanting to remain a cute and cuddly big-bitey-guy for all eternity.
Tsk, you know I need a moonstone to evolve!
Yeah, I know what you mean, Navior. Generally speaking, I try not to think too much about the mathematical reality of what a five foot square should be. It's one of those little bits of rules that exist for convenience sake that pretty much make no sense logically.
Put that way, I suppose I'd be inclined to give both parties an opportunity to make their check. A stealth for the hidden person and a perception for the invading one. But since the rules state that only one person can occupy a square at a time, it seems that one or the other has to move out of that square. I'd think it'd be the one who doesn't want to be seen.
Of course, the next step to this whole problem is, what happens when two invisible/hidden creatures, both unaware of each other, try to enter the same space?
Ha! I've actually seen that happen too. This is where I think a percentage check should be applied. Or maybe two invisibility fields in the same place automatically cancel each other out. :)
I think it could be handled this way:
There are two options, since the invading creature probably provokes, the hidden creature can take an AOO. If it does, then the problem is sorted out as the invader knows not to go there (though he can chose to bullrush or overrun at that point in time).
If the hidden creature choses not to take the AOO, it is instead treated as having a readied-action for someone entering his square. He has one standard action that he can use as he sees fit (perhaps attack again, or try to move out of the way). If he attacks it is the same as the AOO, otherwise he is now out of the way. Note that this also changes the initiative of the hidden creature and it only gets to act again next round (at the new initiative).
Hooray!
It mostly looks good. You still need to choose a new feat, and it looks like you haven't assigned your favoured class bonus (if you have, I missed it). Finally, your hp have gone up, but I didn't see a roll posted anywhere. Make a roll. If you don't like it, you may request a DM reroll, but must take the results of the reroll if you do.
Everything else looks good!
I think it could be handled this way:
There are two options, since the invading creature probably provokes, the hidden creature can take an AOO. If it does, then the problem is sorted out as the invader knows not to go there (though he can chose to bullrush or overrun at that point in time).
If the hidden creature choses not to take the AOO, it is instead treated as having a readied-action for someone entering his square. He has one standard action that he can use as he sees fit (perhaps attack again, or try to move out of the way). If he attacks it is the same as the AOO, otherwise he is now out of the way. Note that this also changes the initiative of the hidden creature and it only gets to act again next round (at the new initiative).
That's an interesting idea, and somewhat simpler than my convoluted method. I'm going to give it a little more thought, but I'm tempted to give this a try.
Ah, sorry, I forgot we rolled! My HPs at lv2 were 24, so...
I think I'll keep it! ;)
Hit Points are now 36.
Continuing with the Wolf'sKin theme, I'm taking Keen Scent. That should be interesting to role-play...
Heya - I'd like to hear some feedback from you guys on a notion I had yesterday: new mechanic tied to Charisma
Heya - I'd like to hear some feedback from you guys on a notion I had yesterday: new mechanic tied to Charisma
Thoughts on your Charisma idea:
1)It seems like an escalation in an war between a GM and veteran Charisma dumpers. Players who have a track record of not power-gaming shouldn't be penalized because they have a valid character concept which is blunt, shy, or socially awkward and played that way.
2)It generally penalizes the characters who are in most need of healing and rewards those who have more healing resources. Who is most likely to have a low Charisma? Barbarians and fighters, the front-line tanks who usually take the most damage. Who is most likely to have a high Charisma? Paladins, bards, and clerics, all of whom control their own healing resources.
3)Everyone always complains about the fighters and barbarians who dump Charisma, yet one rarely hears complaints about wizards "dumping" Strength, or characters wearing heavy armor "dumping" their Dexterity. For whatever reason, those are just considered smart trade-offs in a point-buy system, not "optimizing." Just as the wizard can assume he'll do his attacking with spells and rely on party members to front-line for him while he provides back-up, the low-Cha fighter ought similarly to assume he'll keep his mouth shut and rely on the party bard or paladin to handle negotiations. Is there a possibility they'll get stuck in an awkward situation where the wizard has to whack someone with his stick and the fighter has to try to talk his way out of something? Sure, and that's when they deal with the consequences of their choices, just like the guy in plate mail does when he's in a hot environment or has to swim or gets attacked at night while unarmored.
Personally, I've never played a character with less than a 10 Charisma. Heck, I played a fighter with a 16 Cha back in 2E when it was a completely useless stat! But I think there are valid characters who require a low Charisma to make sense of their personality and/or backstory. I once had a rogue whose schtick was being so average people didn't even remember her after they'd met the party (10 Cha). I'm running a academic wizard in Carrion Crown who is good-hearted but so unused to dealing with people outside the lab that she tends to say things that cause offense without realizing it (10 Cha). I ran an NPC in a campaign who was the nicest guy in the world but who was so bad with words that no matter what he was trying to persuade you of, he ended up bolstering the opposition's argument (I think he had a 6 Cha).
I think I'd rather see a "floor" put on Charisma, if it's a recurring problem in a party, or do like some GMs do who want to encourage background skills and hand out an extra skill point that has to be put in a Craft or Profession skill. Also, if a Charisma-dumper wants to have that number on his character sheet and then go around gladhanding with NPCs like he's the life of the party, his interactions ought to turn the locals against not only him but his allies as well because they associate with him. From now on everyone starts at Unfriendly or Hostile, not Indifferent, even if it's the party bard going into the shop by himself, just because they know he hangs out with that bullying jerk.
If you do implement it, I think I'd do a "minimum 1" rule, like with skill points for character with low Ints or "bonus of half your level (minimum 1)." It's awfully hard on that dwarf fighter to have spells that can't be cast on him at all. Sure, it reinforces the anti-magic stereotype for dwarves -- until it's a human or elf with an 8 Charisma. Then it's just kind of random. :)
That's a pretty valid response. Though before thinking of barbarians and fighters who dump their Charisma, consider how those characters are likely to be generated in the world where the Charisma-magic applies.
Intelligence is very important and opens up big skill sets for characters. Some fighters consciously make the choice of only having 7 or 8 Int anyway. They might shoot themselves and their party in the foot in the process - but they can certainly do it and are welcome to. They make a conscious trade-off where the gain equates with a tangible loss.
The rule I suggest is supposed to mimic that - Charisma shouldn't be an "easy" thing to dump. I've seen some really fantastic roleplayers do sterling jobs at a 8 or lower Charisma. But more often than not I've seen the 7 Charisma guy simply lay back quietly in the corner waiting for all the talky bits to end so that things move on to killing again.
Now, the penalty isn't really big. It has a large influence at level 1 mind you (then again, everything is disproportionally dice-dependent at level 1) - but at level 5, if your cure moderate wounds grants 2d8 + 5 or 2d8 + 3 isn't really that big a deal.
Likewise, your Charisma 10 characters don't even notice a difference from before at all. And that bards and paladins get a bigger kick out of it... so what? So they get 2d8 + 8 instead of 2d8 + 5 healing. Is great for them, but nothing crazy.
Finally, I don't think your roleplaying concept necessarily needs to be tied too closely to your stats in a stereotypical sense. Its perfectly viable to play at 16 Charisma guy that is socially awkward (think Harry Potter). There is a lot of interpretation behind the numbers that allow for a lot of leeway. You can have a 20 Strength Hulk Hogan, or you can have a 20 Strength hamster.
That all said, I do like the idea of a "minimum 1" that you instate. That helps make the maths work out better.
I understand the desire to make Charisma more relevant, but on the whole, I have to agree with Joana. One additional problem I see is not from a mechanics perspective, but an in-game rationalization of what is happening. Why does Charisma have such an influence on helpful magic, but not on other magic? If the low-Charisma dwarf is slightly resistant to healing spells, shouldn't he also be slightly resistant to fireballs?
I suppose you could also make a case for it reversing with harmful spells, so a low Charisma would decrease healing, but increase damage from harmful spells. That might create the opposite problem, though, where no one ever plays a low-Charisma character.
Fair enough. I can certainly see some story making sense on why Charisma could work like that (in-game I mean); but the concept as a whole needs a more support to pass muster.
It's hard to make a mechanic that makes Charisma relevant for every character. The social/role-play aspects of Charisma are not a sufficient mechanical levy, in my opinion, as they require buy-in from players and GM alike - and in general that is not a given. That is why I'd like to see a tangible and meaningful effect that is tied to Charisma that has per-level ramifications (like Int and Con) or some generally desirable effect.
Furthermore it should not be something that you get into using feats or class abilities or the like - but an ever-present mechanic. Additionally, I don't like suggestions that juggle the value of Charisma around (i.e. use Wisdom or Charisma for Will-Saves) - as that is a cop-out in my opinion that doesn't sort out the problem.
Charisma shouldn't become a must-have stat; certainly not. I like the resource-shuffling game, and figuring out how to optimize your concept against the demands of your attributes is a good thing. That is my real reason that I don't like Charisma as a dump-stat: it's insulting to the optimization process.
I'll ponder things some more, maybe I'll see some other possibilities in the future :)
Strictly my opinion, but I think you would have a lot less of dump statting anything if a 25 point buy was used moreso than 20. I know a 20 point buy is the most common and that's fine, but with such, you are going to have dump stats. Not all the time, mind you, just more times than not.
An example: I'm in this Kingmaker thread which used a 25 point buy. Not one PC member has anything less than a 10. The only member with a score less than 10 is an NPC that is part of the party now. He has an 8 Wisdom. Also, there were two original members that dropped, neither of them had anything less than a 10.
This is just an example that I know of and I don't doubt people still dump stat with a 25 point buy. I'm just saying I think it would happen a lot less.
Just my 2 cents. :)
I don't think the problem is that characters have a dump stat. It's that they tend to always have the same dump stat: Charisma (unless it's important to the class). Raising the point buy will result in the low stats not being as low, but people will still have stats that they choose to make lower than the other ones, and Charisma will still tend to be the one they make lowest. When Cha is 12, but every other stat is at least 15, then Charisma is still the dump stat. :)
Isn't that the point of point-buy, though? That people spend their limited points on abilities that will help their characters? Otherwise, just use an array and let people arrange them as they like. Then I guess people will complain that some PCs put the lowest number in the array in Cha. ;)
Honestly, it's like a make-your-own salad bar where you tell people to choose what they like and then complain that they took too many croutons and not enough olives. If the DM wants PCs with certain scores, then use another method of generating them. Don't let people buy points and then complain about how they did it.
I guess I don't really get the outrage over low stats. My RL group has long worked with the roll 4d6 as many times as you want until you get the numbers you like method and ends up with the equivalent of insane point buys like 84. I'd rather see a guy with an 8 Charisma than my brother-in-law's fighter with no stats below 14 (yes, including charisma) or his wizard with an 18 Strength.
I don't think the problem is that characters have a dump stat. It's that they tend to always have the same dump stat: Charisma (unless it's important to the class). Raising the point buy will result in the low stats not being as low, but people will still have stats that they choose to make lower than the other ones, and Charisma will still tend to be the one they make lowest. When Cha is 12, but every other stat is at least 15, then Charisma is still the dump stat. :)
That, I don't disagree. It definitely still gets dumped more than any others, regardless.
That is why I'd like to see a tangible and meaningful effect that is tied to Charisma that has per-level ramifications (like Int and Con) or some generally desirable effect.
I think this could be interesting. Don't really know where you could go with this, but that's why there are people like Lorekeeper out there. They love toying around with this kind of stuff! :)
Me, it just hurts my head. :P
I guess I don't really get the outrage over low stats. My RL group has long worked with the roll 4d6 as many times as you want until you get the numbers you like method and ends up with the equivalent of insane point buys like 84. I'd rather see a guy with an 8 Charisma than my brother-in-law's fighter with no stats below 14 (yes, including charisma) or his wizard with an 18 Strength.
I actually agree with you entirely. I personally really like characters that have a low stat or two. I feel they open a lot of avenues for roleplay and development. One of the most fun characters I have ever played was a rogue/cleric with an Intelligence of 7. And yes, I would much rather see an 8 Charisma than a character with nothing below 14 (and I have seen characters like that)!
However, I do understand why some DMs get a bit tired of the proliferation of low Charisma.