Myths and Legends(Heroes of Golarion)

Game Master Monkeygod

@Fnord, I have no problem working with you(or separately as the case may be) to design personalities of intelligent items.

Intelligent should likely be controlled via GM. That's what my brother told our RL friend, and I tend to agree.

@Fnord, I have no problem working with you(or separately as the case may be) to design personalities of intelligent items.

Intelligent should likely be controlled via GM. That's what my brother told our RL friend, and I tend to agree.

Like cohorts, intelligent items are NPC's. DM's just typically delegate the responsibility to the player. It's up to them though.

Alright, here's your friendly neighborhood autoturret checking in!

Because it's *definitely* necessary to stack permanent True Sight, Aura Sight, Arcane Sight, See Invisible, Limning AoE attacks, and Fog Sight on top of +71 to Perception, oh yes, nothing redundant there at all.

If you want a weapon (or armor) to have an enhancement bonus of +5 and +5 in special abilities, you will need to buy up legendary armor and legendary weapons.

Note that you can change your armor/weapon attunement each day.

So you definitely see a savings in weapons by being able to have a ghost touch weapon, keen weapon, holy weapon, etc.

So, Weapon attunement at 17th level provides a single weapon a +5 enhancement or two weapons +4/+3 enhancements.

Assuming I'm a barbie with just one oversized vorpal sword that I want to swing with a +5 enhancement, I need to spend five points in legendary weapon to get my total weapon enhancement to +10. I can now swing my +5 vorpal sword. A +5 vorpal sword normally costs 200,000 gold. Since I am knocking off the +5, I reduce the price by 50,000 gold. I spend 150,000 gold (plus masterwork sword).

But I also want a holy speed rapier. SO I spend another 150,000 gold, and I can attune one or the other each day and swing either with a +5 enhancement bonus.

If I want to be able to swing either the same day, I need to spend points on legendary twin weapons.

I don't want to necessarily run cohorts and intelligent items. But I will use them as mouth pieces and sources of information. And if I feel a player has been treating them like extensions of the PC, I'll have them occasionally say 'no'.

I thought the purchase aspect only was for buying weapons that didn't have a + cost.

So my holy avenger is +7 which is 98k. This is then subtracted from the 120,630 that it costs, leaving the final cost 22,630 for the non standard abilities. I have to pay that.

I'm glad Soulknife lets me not have to worry about that crap...

Quick clarification:

Cohorts get ABP for saves and AC. Possibly to stats as well. Not to armor or weapons.

Oh. That changes things. What do they use their extra legendary gifts on, then? (Janus is currently trucking two +6 weapons, one +8 weapon and one +9 weapon)

Unsure. This is open to discussion but I'm not sure if giving them the weapon and armor bonuses might be making them more powerful than necessary.

It could be. They're definitely way below WBL, though, so I could go either way on that. (And I can definitely ditch the lenses of detection, etc. in favor of affording weapons)

I think ABP should be all or nothing, too hard to piecemiel it.

Your holy avenger is miss-priced.

You don't reduce from the top.

Holy avenger is priced as a +2 cold iron longsword, blah, blah, blah.

According to the ABP table, you subtract 8000 gold for the +2 reducing the price to 112,630 gold.

We are used to, under normal rules, of adjusting the +1 to +10 and then looking at the magic cost table. This is incorrect.

At 20th level, ABP gives +5 enhancement. Therefore every weapon must be assumed to have that first +5 cost (50,000), other stuff then gets priced UP from there to +10.

For example, Celestial Armor is +3 chainmail, it's price is reduced by 9000 gold.

An Oathbow is also reduced by 8000 gold for the +2 property (note that the increased cost for the strength damage isn't changed).

REgarding Wild Arcana:

"I think Belgraen's right on this one. Wild Arcana, from being mythic, lets him craft a scroll of any Wizard spell.

However, I don't think he's paying the *scroll crafting* costs."

Wild Arcana would allow him to cast any wizard spell. Casting the spell will not let him create a free scroll of it though. Nor could he scribe it to his spellbook. It's basically a supersized wizard's bonded object.

REgarding Wild Arcana:

"I think Belgraen's right on this one. Wild Arcana, from being mythic, lets him craft a scroll of any Wizard spell.

However, I don't think he's paying the *scroll crafting* costs."

Wild Arcana would allow him to cast any wizard spell. Casting the spell will not let him create a free scroll of it though. Nor could he scribe it to his spellbook. It's basically a supersized wizard's bonded object.

How so? If one can legitimately cast it what's to stop one from making a scroll?

DM Fiat

Otherwise I could make lots of free scrolls with arcane bond.

It's kinda OP as it allows for spells to be cast that a character (at lower levels) might not even knows exists.

And, since scribe scroll says you need to know the spell, I'm ruling that using divine power (aka a mythic point) to cast a spell you don't know, still means you don't know the spell for the purpose of item creation.

DM Fiat

Otherwise I could make lots of free scrolls with arcane bond.

It's kinda OP as it allows for spells to be cast that a character (at lower levels) might not even knows exists.

And, since scribe scroll says you need to know the spell, I'm ruling that using divine power (aka a mythic point) to cast a spell you don't know, still means you don't know the spell for the purpose of item creation.

They'd be crafting cost, not free. Also, arcane bond says that they have to be in your book.

However, DM fiat is a sufficient answer. Alrighty. I'll calculate the market price.

@Dr. Janus

Your character sheet is why I prefer google docs...

1) Your attributes are too low, the initial point buy is 30 1-to-1, you appear to have used 15 points.
2) I do not see where you are getting your immortality from.
3) Where are you getting the +3 natural armor from (over the 5 from ABP)?
4) What is natural enhance, and where is it from?
5) Where is +5 dodge coming from?
6) your weapons are not priced correctly. Please refer a couple of posts up.
7) You need to designate which weapons/armor are attuned.
8) I am not locating the weapon property "dual"
9) you only have 23 levels calculated (if this is a cohort, please note that at the top of the sheet). If he is a cohort, he did not receive the letter, his master did.
10)launching crossbows are full-round actions and would not get iterative attacks. Full attacks are also full-round actions.

Skills are not listed, so having a +71 perception can't be verified.

FYI: I'm working from home next week and should have more time to finalize Belgraen and probably hammer out cohorts and such. It's much easier when the wifi doesn't block paizo and I have all my tools available.

1) Yeah, he's my cohort. Sorry that wasn't more obvious, and that answers 9) as well.

2) I... didn't really bother writing out abilities as much as I should have, because he's a cohort. Immortality comes from the listed grand discovery "Eternal Youth," which is the equivalent of the Wizard's immortality.

3) Grand Mutagen discovery gives a +6 to Natural Armor (I misread it, that's my bad). It also lasts for 20 hours a day, so except when he's asleep it's always active (and with Vest of Beneficial Mutation there's no downside).

4) Natural Armor Enhancement comes from ABP, same as an Amulet of Natural Armor (which it doesn't stack with, or barkskin, etc, but it does stack with regular Natural Armor like the Alchemist's mutagen or the Druid's wild shape)

5) +5 Dodge comes from Gunslinger's Nimble. I probably should have listed that somewhere. >_<

6) Weapons are priced assuming they were covered by ABP; I was waiting to see if that's the case or not for cohorts before recalculating. And yes, this is the correct calculation for ABP cost: A +5 Speed Distance Limning Launching Crossbow, for instance, is an effective +9 weapon, but we subtract the +5 enhancement to gain +4 of special abilities, which cost 32k (see the table at the very bottom of the ABP section; see the example pricing of a +2 keen scimitar. Specific weapon abilities are priced DIFFERENTLY than generic magic properties).

7) Legendary Twin Weapons x3 means he's got all four weapons attuned. They are a +5 Speed Distance Limning Launching Crossbow, a +5 Speed Distance Light Crossbow, +5 Distance Launching Crossbow, and +5 Distance Light Crossbow. No armor attuned, since he's a monk, it's just a flat armor bonus.

8) Dual here was supposed to mean "dual wielding with another similar weapon"

9) He didn't receive the letter, but he's in constant telepathic communication with his master and 8 other people; I posted as him receiving notification from the guy who got the letter.

10) Launching Crossbows are in the crossbow weapon group, thus benefit from Crossbow Mastery and can be reloaded as a free action; with Inexplicable Reload, this time is further reduced to not require an action at all. They just sort of automatically reload. It's weird, which is why I took Gun Twirling as well (common consensus appears to be it applies to crossbows for a Bolt Ace), but both should let him reload crossbows while dual-wielding (If you want to GM rule against this, that's fine, I'd just replace Dazzling Display/Gun Twirling with two Extra Arms through the discovery feat, although that feels kind of inelegant). After that, Fast Bombs allows him to make as many bombs as he can fire, hence the 9 attacks per round.

Out of curiosity how many alchemists are here, including cohorts? If it's several I may revisit Miltoque's class choices.

Is this how it's going to be? Getting out classed by a cheesed to hell cohort?

@Lord Rook

Your character sheet is also ugly compared to wonder of google docs...

1)explain "born into higher age category"
2)You have your unarmed strike with 5 attacks. Monk 6 is flurry of +4/+4/-1. When using the flurry you receive additional BAB to those attacks from other classes, the number of attacks does not change. If you are not using flurry, your iterative attacks are still capped at 4.
3)you have an AC modifier for boneless armor, which would not stack with monk's wisdom to AC or the Monk AC bonus, you are also exceeding the max dex/cha bonus for AC
4)why do you not have a flat foot AC?
5)how are you getting cha and wis to initiative?
6)how are you getting wisdom to BAB?
7)you must still purchase a weapon to apply "Guided, Limning, Psionic Dueling, Dueling, Fortuitous"
8)how are you getting wisdom to int skills?
9)are you paying for a quicken rod of lesser, standard and greater? The greater will also handle lesser, unless you are looking at uses per day of those levels?
10)how are you getting cha to all saves?
11)you have improved initiative listed twice in feats
12)your touch AC should be 10 less than your AC, losing armor and natural AC
13)nondetection costs 50g in diamond dust per casting

This came up last night, and I was actually at a total loss for how to rule:

Our third player is a Bard/Sorcerer, who from Bard, learned Charm Monster. It is now a spell known. It is also a Sorc spell.

Must he cast it via Bard spell slots or could he cast it via Sorc slots(as a Sorcerer spell of 4th level) and thus be able to add metamagic feats that would raise it past a 6th level spell?

The exact situation was he wanted to cast Quicken Charm Monster, but knows it as a Bard spell. Would he thus not be able to cast it Quickened since Bards do not have access to 7th level spell slots?

This came up last night, and I was actually at a total loss for how to rule:

Our third player is a Bard/Sorcerer, who from Bard, learned Charm Monster. It is now a spell known. It is also a Sorc spell.

Must he cast it via Bard spell slots or could he cast it via Sorc slots(as a Sorcerer spell of 4th level) and thus be able to add metamagic feats that would raise it past a 6th level spell?

The exact situation was he wanted to cast Quicken Charm Monster, but knows it as a Bard spell. Would he thus not be able to cast it Quickened since Bards do not have access to 7th level spell slots?

Bard and Soc are different spell lists. If he knows a spell as bard he casts from his bard spells per day.

Just like I can't use my wizard spell slots to cast my cleric spells.

"6) Weapons are priced assuming they were covered by ABP; I was waiting to see if that's the case or not for cohorts before recalculating. And yes, this is the correct calculation for ABP cost: A +5 Speed Distance Limning Launching Crossbow, for instance, is an effective +9 weapon, but we subtract the +5 enhancement to gain +4 of special abilities, which cost 32k (see the table at the very bottom of the ABP section; see the example pricing of a +2 keen scimitar. Specific weapon abilities are priced DIFFERENTLY than generic magic properties)."

The example shows that Flame tongue (A +3 weapon) loses it's +1 enhancement bonus. The cost of the weapon drops from 20715 to 18715.

Looking at the ABP table, it looses 2k for losing a +1. It does not drop from 20715 to 10715 as we would do according to the magic item table.

Each weapon a player wants to have (and attune) must be calculated at it's full cost. THEN the cost of the enhancement bonus is deducted according to the ABP table, not the weapon pricing by bonus table.

Assuming that every player would use a full +5 enhancement bonus, their cost for a weapon with other level effects would then be (cost of masterwork item added to all):

+0 effects - 0
+1 - 22,000 (72,000-50,000)
+2 - 48,000
+3 - 78,000
+4 - 112,000
+5 - 150,000

Keep in mind that additional legendary gifts would need to be spent to attune a higher level weapon.
*****

"7) Legendary Twin Weapons x3 means he's got all four weapons attuned. They are a +5 Speed Distance Limning Launching Crossbow, a +5 Speed Distance Light Crossbow, +5 Distance Launching Crossbow, and +5 Distance Light Crossbow. No armor attuned, since he's a monk, it's just a flat armor bonus."

In order to have a +5 speed, distance, limning launching crossbow, you would need to buy 5 levels of legendary weapon.
In order to have a +5 speed distance light crossbow at the same time, you would need another 4 levels of legendary weapon.
In order to have a +5 distance launching crossbow at the same time, you would need to buy another level of legendary weapon.
In order to have a +5 distance light crossbow at the same time, you would need to buy another level of legendary weapon.

Therefore, to have 3 weapons attuned at the same time, and have the additional abilities usable, you would need to spend 11 points on legendary weapons, and 6 points on legendary twin weapons. (Each additional purchase of LTW is one more weapon.)
*****

"10) Launching Crossbows are in the crossbow weapon group, thus benefit from Crossbow Mastery and can be reloaded as a free action; with Inexplicable Reload, this time is further reduced to not require an action at all. They just sort of automatically reload. It's weird, which is why I took Gun Twirling as well (common consensus appears to be it applies to crossbows for a Bolt Ace), but both should let him reload crossbows while dual-wielding (If you want to GM rule against this, that's fine, I'd just replace Dazzling Display/Gun Twirling with two Extra Arms through the discovery feat, although that feels kind of inelegant). After that, Fast Bombs allows him to make as many bombs as he can fire, hence the 9 attacks per round."

The description for launching crossbows state that using them is a full-round action. This is not a full-attack action. Thus crossbow mastery wouldn't apply. I believe this was deliberate due to what the launching crossbow is intended to do.

I am not a fan of the gunslinger hi-jinks to reduce reloading to free actions. And dual wielding crossbows would prevent even free actions from occurring when both hands are holding a weapon.

I would allow one crossbow to be fired at full iterative attacks with crossbow mastery, if you have four arms, I'd allow two light/heavy crossbows to be fired at full iterative attacks.

Keep in mind that free actions is not unlimited actions. nine free reloads, plus nine preparations of bombs, with both hands occupied is a stretch.

Fast bombs is a full-round action. This wouldn't work with launching crossbows anyway as you'd need to take two full-round actions to use one launching crossbow, 3 full-round actions to use two launching crossbows.

You'll have to stick with throwing nine by hand, or using the launching crossbow for special effects on one or two bombs.

Wizard and Cleric is an entirely different argument. There's absolutely no way you could cast a prepared divine spell as a prepared arcane spell(save for the couple of ways you actually can, lol). Heck, even known divine vs known arcane is pretty much the exact same.

But a KNOWN arcane spell is a little cloudier, in my opinion. Especially when the spell in question is on both lists. Once you have the knowledge, you have the knowledge.

Wizard and Cleric is an entirely different argument. There's absolutely no way you could cast a prepared divine spell as a prepared arcane spell(save for the couple of ways you actually can, lol). Heck, even known divine vs known arcane is pretty much the exact same.

But a KNOWN arcane spell is a little cloudier, in my opinion. Especially when the spell in question is on both lists. Once you have the knowledge, you have the knowledge.

I disagree. Being on both lists isn't a factor. You could no more cast glibness using your sorcerer slots than you could if you had oracle slots. Both the known and per day are tracked seperately for different classes. Being arcane or divine isn't a factor. The only similarity is the specific mechanic used.

Is this how it's going to be? Getting out classed by a cheesed to hell cohort?

Err... he's optimized to throw healing bombs, not damaging ones (yeah, I min-maxed healing because a bit I was curious if it was possible). DT can definitely do more damage, and more importantly has awesome status feats that shut down everyone—Janus is just there to hit him with four cool alchemist buffs per turn (his familiar is basically a buff syringe full of extracts he can deliver on touch). And I don't plan to actually send him anywhere dangerous, just leave him behind in cities, and possibly not fight at all. If there are problems, I can certainly change things. However, I will answer some questions, as they apply generally—

6) Re-read the Automatic Bonus Progression section. At the end it says "In this system, adding bonus-equivalent special abilities to items costs significantly less because you are paying only for the special ability, not for a base enhancement bonus (see the table below)." The table below prices +4 of abilities at 32k. The flame tongue case does not apply because it's a *specific* magic weapon which uses an entirely different pricing system.

7) Redo the math. It's 4+3+1+1 legendary weapon gifts, which are listed on the character under "automatic bonus progression." Doctor Janus also has spent 6 points on legendary double weapon.

10) Launching Crossbows are a full-round action to load, not fire. They fire like any other weapon, and RAW can be used with Crossbow Mastery. If you don't like this, I can ditch them and have him throw bombs by hand; this just drops his healing range from 600' to 100' and means he has a bunch of spare legendary gifts I can't spend on anything.

Fast Bombs also specifically says you can throw as many bombs as you can make attacks, which means he'd get 9 healing bombs/round regardless of whether he was using crossbows or not.

When I get around to revising all of these, I can replace Dazzling Display/Gun Twirling to get Extra Arms. No worries.

Glibness is a bard only spell. You can only cast it via bard slots.

Charm Monster is a Bard and Sorcerer spell. Its also a Wizard spell.

Wizards however, must read a book to temporarily gain the ability to cast their spells. Take away their spell book, and enough time, and they loose their ability to cast at all.

Bards and Sorcerers always have access to their spells. Three weeks of being in a prison and no access to their possessions, they still have all their spells on the last day of the third week as they did the day they were imprisoned.

Glibness is a bard only spell. You can only cast it via bard slots.

Charm Monster is a Bard and Sorcerer spell. Its also a Wizard spell.

Wizards however, must read a book to temporarily gain the ability to cast their spells. Take away their spell book, and enough time, and they loose their ability to cast at all.

Bards and Sorcerers always have access to their spells. Three weeks of being in a prison and no access to their possessions, they still have all their spells on the last day of the third week as they did the day they were imprisoned.

I fully understand what you're saying and you're of course welcome to houserule if you like. However, If you're taking about RAW mechanics I still disagree.

Spells known between classes are only for those classes. Having an identical mechanic between classes doesn't somehow allow you to mix and match like that. If the spells also appear on different lists it doesn't change anything. Knowing cure light wounds as an oracle doesn't allow you to cast it with bard spells per day and vice versa. Same with Sorcer vs bard. No more than cleric spells can be prepared in wizard spell slots of they're on the same list.

Think of it as knowing how to build macs or IBMs.
Just because both have spreadsheets doesn't mean you can use the same spreadsheet on both systems. You would need to get two programs, though each program might build a spreadsheet with the same data.

Spells known are specific to the class they are known by.

You can't (say in gestalt) multiclass summoner and wizard and use scribe scroll on the summoner spells and then cast them as a wizard due to the level differences.

"6) Re-read the Automatic Bonus Progression section. At the end it says "In this system, adding bonus-equivalent special abilities to items costs significantly less because you are paying only for the special ability, not for a base enhancement bonus (see the table below)." The table below prices +4 of abilities at 32k. The flame tongue case does not apply because it's a *specific* magic weapon which uses an entirely different pricing system."

You are miss reading this. Unless you'd like to limit ALL weapons to no more than +4 in level bonuses? The example I showed, from the ABP, of the flametongue, quite handily explains how to use that table.
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"7) Redo the math. It's 4+3+1+1 legendary weapon gifts, which are listed on the character under "automatic bonus progression." Doctor Janus also has spent 6 points on legendary double weapon."

Speed is +3, distance is +1, limning is +1. I correctly added that up as +3+1+1=5, +3+1=4, +1, +1, total of 11.
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"10) Launching Crossbows are a full-round action to load, not fire. They fire like any other weapon, and RAW can be used with Crossbow Mastery. If you don't like this, I can ditch them and have him throw bombs by hand; this just drops his healing range from 600' to 100' and means he has a bunch of spare legendary gifts I can't spend on anything."
I stand corrected, loading, not using. HOWEVER, that is still multiple full-round actions in the same turn.
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"Fast Bombs also specifically says you can throw as many bombs as you can make attacks, which means he'd get 9 healing bombs/round regardless of whether he was using crossbows or not."

You're still not throwing any bombs with two hands full. And your not getting free action reloads with both hands full.

How are you throwing 9 bombs a round?

1) "born into higher age category" e.g. "can be venerable, despite being undead, since he was created from a venerable half-elf." It's a -6/-6/-6/+3/+3/+3

2) Unchained Monk. I should have made this more clear. Four iteratives plus Unchained Flurry.

3) Boneless Leather provides a CMD bonus, not an AC bonus. It might be confusing because they're right next to each other.

4) Uncanny Dodge: never caught flat-footed. Since he doesn't sleep, and has constant freedom of movement, I'm not sure when he'd ever be flat-footed. Doctor Janus has the same set of effects.

5) Cha to initiative is from the Noble Scion feat; Wis to initiative is from Inquisitor. Tactics Inquisition also adds his Wisdom bonus to all nearby allies' initiatives.

6) Wisdom to attacks comes from a Guided weapon. If you don't like guided weapons, I can do this through Mythic Guided Hand or a Soulknife dip instead, but that feels like more work.

7) Under Equipment, it's a 66k expenditure.

8) Inquisitor Monster Lore. It's only +Wisdom to identify monsters, which should be noted in the skills section.

9) I am paying for all three. I figure he'll want to cast more than three quickened spells/day, but most of them will be lower level ones.

10) +Cha to Fort from being Undead, +Cha to Ref from being a lore oracle. Should be +Wis to Will, that was a typo but the numbers were correct.

11) Also a typo. The second was a bonus feat from a class I got rid of. Thanks!

12) Must have missed that, thanks.

13) Hmm. I assume a 1.2 million gp estate generates about 10x that much money per day. If it's a problem, I can get rid of it, since he spends most of his time in a Mage's Private Sanctum.

6) No, the flame tongue is *specifically* called out as a special case only applying to named and specific magical weapons. I literally just quoted the relevant section, and it says that, for instance, a Keen weapon, you're paying the cost of a +2 weapon. We should probably let other people weigh in here if we're going to keep arguing the same points, but that's RAW and how I've always seen it applied for generic magical properties.

7) Okay, gotcha. For some reason I had Speed listed in my head as +2. Sorry! I'll update this when we figure out how ABP is working for cohorts.

10) Crossbow Mastery is a feat that makes all crossbows (including repeating and double as well) reload as a free action. Gun Twirling lets you holster one at a time to reload them, but you said you didn't like it, so extra arms are another option. Again, I can get rid of the launching crossbows if it makes people uncomfortable.

9 Bombs around: 1 from Boots of Haste (to replace a Speed weapon), 4 from BAB, 3 from TWF feats, and 1 from Rapid Shot.

PLEASE HOLD ON ALL AUTOMATIC BONUS PROGRESSION DISCUSSIONS. I AM ATTEMPTING TO GET OUTSIDE ASSISTANCE.

How many times have you played with ABP?

Note that ABP changes the way weapons cost from the other table.

"remove the flat enhancement bonus and reduce the item's cost by the amount listed on the table below"

Seems pretty clear to me.

1) Take a guarding blade.
2) remove the +1 enhancement bonus.
3) refer to ABP table
4) reduce price of guarding blade by enhancement bonus removed
5) guarding blade reduced from 65,135 gp to 63,135 gp.

The sentence before is "In this system, adding bonus-equivalent special abilities to items costs significantly less because you are paying only for the special ability, not for a base enhancement bonus (see the table below)."

I've read "significantly less" as the key words there—under your proposed way of interpreting this, adding bonus-equivalent abilities costs only a tiny fraction less.

Sorry Monkey, was in post.

@Lord Rook

"3) Boneless Leather provides a CMD bonus, not an AC bonus. It might be confusing because they're right next to each other."

Magic Items‎ > ‎Magic Armor‎ > ‎Specific Magic Armor‎ > ‎
This suit of +1 leather gives its wearer the ability to twist and contort her body in virtually any direction. She gains a +5 bonus on Escape Artist checks, a +5 bonus on Acrobatics checks to reduce damage from falls, a +5 bonus to CMD, and DR 5/piercing or slashing.

It's armor. Refluff it to be clothing and note it on your sheet.
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"4) Uncanny Dodge: never caught flat-footed. Since he doesn't sleep, and has constant freedom of movement, I'm not sure when he'd ever be flat-footed. Doctor Janus has the same set of effects."

An antimagic zone, dead-mana zone, I can think of a few ways. Please list it. I believe that some mythic sources may also overcome this.
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"5) Cha to initiative is from the Noble Scion feat;"

When you select this feat, choose one of the benefits listed below that matches the flavor of your noble family. Work with your GM to ensure that your choice is appropriate.

I'll think on this and consult with Monkeygod.
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"6) Wisdom to attacks comes from a Guided weapon"

Don't add it to your base attack, add it to the weapon attack line please.
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13) You won't be carrying your estate in your back pocket on adventures. While some laxitude is expected with this much wealth. Expensive components on hand are tracked.
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"7) Under Equipment, it's a 66k expenditure."
Underpriced, pending decision.

It wasn't a concern with power, or even a pvp concern.

It's also not the most ridiculous thing I've seen either (quiver of shrunken large ballista bolts that return to normal size when fired, because that's how it says polymorph effects on ammunition work...).

I just want to avoid cheese, which is made entirely too easy with these creation guidelines. It's a can vs should thing, I guess. If this isn't/wasn't your intention, then feel free to disregard my concern.

As far as the ABP, I think the intention is for you to design the weapon, calculate the price normally, then remove enhancement costs.

I agree with you Kryzbyn. Can and should are the significant concerns.

I would prefer having to using completely arbitrary values for creating BBG's, but may be forced to do so.

Encounters should be challenging. Encounters should have varying levels of risk to the character.

For example,

I create a monster not in any bestiary. At the first encounter I get a bunch of knowledge rolls anywhere from 50 to possibly as high as 80.

RAW knowledge skills will give you a monsters abilities and weaknesses at 10+CR.

So should I be building monsters with CR's in the 60s and 70s? If I build them that high so the players don't automatically know everything about them, what do you think the monster's abilities would do to some CR 25-30ish characters?

As far as the ABP, I think the intention is for you to design the weapon, calculate the price normally, then remove enhancement costs.

Yea. Since you're paying for it with gold the extra +5 features on AP seem kinda pointless. Basically you pay for it with gold and AP. Seems redundant.

Uncanny dodge is an Ex, not an Su, but I guess it doesn't hurt to list it.

I didn't add wis to BAB; I added it to the attack line.

Also, I primarily took Noble Scion because he *is* the scion of a noble family (and one that is very into being careful/wary). If it's a power thing I can change it.

Guys, please remember this game isn't about building munchkin out, minmaxed PCs, cohorts, followers, et el with uber insaneo gear.

Its a storytelling game, which just happens to feature badass heroes. I feel like this has gotten lost in the shuffle with all the talk of ABP, signature items, cohorts, etc.

Yeah, that's fair. I just tried to go with "badass" and maybe the numbers turned out wacky. Wasn't even originally expecting cohorts to be fully statted out but I got carried away.

I can't say how truly combat effective Bel will be. My goal is for him to facilitate others badassery and otherwise contribute where he can.

Setting aside ABP issues, I'd like to talk about something else.

As Monkeygod has mentioned many times, this is a mutual story telling endeavor.

The opening post was to present an initial situation and explain a few necessities.

Please note I am not making personal attacks. This is how we will learn each other's styles, and what is going to be needed to make this a successful and fun game for all.

Rook, I'm gonna pick on you a little, simply because you're the first to end up in the circumstances I'm talking about. However, this applies to everyone.

Janus posts a perception check (at a ridiculous level, and a +30 permanent potion? How is a beverage permanent? A +30 skill check also cost 90k, not 2k). So will Janus, a cohort, be walking into every large group of people and effectively immediately know who the assassin is? Know what every person in the room had for breakfast? Sherlock Holmes to nth degree? Realize now, with ranks that hi I have no choice than to either:
1) state "you win, game over"
2) pull just as ridiculous numbers out of thin air and ignore the likely response of "not possible" or "I should get to know everything"
3) waste time data dumping an encyclopedia of information on you and let you try and figure out which tidbits are worthwhile.

Ditto with knowledge rolls of 70-80.

VG, as should be obvious, stands for Validk Ghujold. He's obviously not a CR of 70+. So do you just happen to now know his entire life history, all his weaknesses and strengths?

This is where the cooperative story telling comes from. Continue the story, what would you do, how would you react. Hopefully more than just a couple of lines. Cohorts make great opportunities to talk with oneself.

Trust that when rolls are required, they will be asked for, this avoids options 1 and 3. At this level, option 2 is going to be a given.

Based on the story you provide, I'll provide information that is mostly pertinent, but not always. Because if you can automatically know every answer, then option 1 keeps rearing its ugly head.

I'm not asking for rolls at this point because this is just the preamble, and characters aren't done yet.

Note that the more obscure information is, the longer it takes, the more resources are needed, libraries, etc. More than likely, YOUR libraries will only hint at someone else's library.

And, I don't care how high your diplomacy is. You won't be able to turn everyone and anyone into your instant best buddy in six seconds. Most powerful people are inured against being so easily, and quickly swayed.

For instance, the method of delivery for the invitations is a game mechanic. It does not apply to normal pathfinder rules.

Since I typically spend 30 minutes to an hour building a post, and in complex posts several hours compiling a well considered approach, recording important decisions in a personal log for future reference and consistency. I expect players, especially at this level, and in this cooperative storytelling version.

So, in that matter, players should consider doing key word searches on the Golarion wiki. I use it frequently to keep the game tied to the already expansive history of Golarion. However, information noted as 'secret' of GM should be assumed to not be known by your character.

Fair enough. The +30 to Perception was from the Eternal Potion discovery; I mostly wanted him to be someone really good at seeing things from far away. I can probably toss it or reflavor some of the perception bonuses into only for seeing things at a distance, not telling who's disguised, etc. (Though we're high enough level for half the party to have true seeing, which is why Lord Rook took precautions against it).

One of the problems with a game at this level is—25, with mythic and gestalt, we're basically gods. Minor gods, sure, but the same things that threaten or stymy a normal party aren't going to apply, and scenarios are bound to play out differently.

...Lord Rook doesn't even have the highest knowledge. But knowledge checks only have the ability to cover things you can conceivably learn. Yeah, with time, he can probably find a bit of info on every rich/powerful/important game-player in all of Golarion (as can, say, a Legend Lore spell from a 10th-level bard, which anyone at this point can trivially hire), but if you name some random peasant in Varisia, he'll never be able to find that guy's family tree.

Basically, everyone: assume diminishing returns on skills. I was using the D20 epic level guide as a guide for this—a Perception check of 80, for instance, can overcome a failed will save against a mundane illusion spell, and a Perception check of 60 lets you detect the presence of magic (but not it's aura). With an Acrobatics check of DC 90, you can balance on water in a magic-free zone, while Acrobatics DC 120 is the poor man's Cloud Walk—but other than that, there's not much difference between 30 and 130 Acrobatics.

Unbuffed, and without magic items boosting, my Perception is +42, but then I have a +14 to Wis along with max ranks.

You might note that we're not using 3.5 epic (other than leadership table).

There's a reason for that, other than the insanely broken aspect of it.

You should probably do a little reading on gods and deities. Being a god does not mean omniscience.

I never said omniscience. Lord Rook's pretty par for the course for a level 20 lore oracle. And I thought we were originally using 3.5 epic for inspiration?

I dunno how bright it is to send a guy who's spent his lifetime stopping evil mages something obviously via magic, and then use secrecy to obscure any clue to their identity...

He's not paranoid, but I don't think he'd need to be.