Monsters and Men Table 1

Game Master tumbler

Odd thought, would being part dragon even be possible in the Dresden verse? Not much is known about them, but they CAN take human form. Might be a good explanation for special powers, and a good theme to go with.

There are half-fey (Changlings), half-vampires (Brotherhood of St. Giles), other half-vampires (White Court Virgins), and probably others that don't instantly come to mind... I can't imagine why half-dragons wouldn't work.

I was thinking a more distant lineage (given how IMMENSELY powerful the dragon we've seen is, even a half-dragon would probably be...unrealistic for PL 7), but good to know. I'll go with that.

My character is a Fire Djinn :) it's coming out great!

Okay! I've got my character all ported into paizo as an alias, just waiting to see if I'm allowed to use the format I have his crunch set up in is all kosher. I'll post the character as soon as I get the go ahead from that person so I don't step on any toes. That said, looking at Lakshmi confused me on one topic. I thought we couldn't have more ranks in a power than the Power Level + 5? Which would put us snugly at no higher than 12. Please correct me if I'm wrong on that as it would mean great things for what Cooper Harris the non-warden wizard can do with his magic.

Rynjin, as an option, instead of being of the blood of dragons, what about having been altered by the blood of a dragon?

Folklore and fiction have listed several effects from tasting the of a dragon, the first I recall is to be able to understand and speak the language of birds.
Achilles' mother dipped him in a cauldron of something to grant him physical protection.
Eating the heart of an animal paid homage to its spirit/granted their power to the hunter/allows their form to a shape-shifter/etc.

It might offer more complications if the power was a recent acquisition rather than a family line thing.
And complications are what makes characters interesting.

Power rank limit for a PL7 campaign is 7 for a damaging power.
With GM permission, you can make some trade-offs, though.
Attack bonus and damage/power rank added together cannot exceed twice the power level.
Thus an attack bonus of +4 allows a damage bonus of +10.

The bit about saves (fort, reflex, will) is that the character's save bonuses cannot exceed power level plus 5.
(Toughness cannot exceed power level without dropping Defense bonus so the sum of the two equal power level x 2.)

So, in order to have a power rank above 7, your attack bonus has to be lower than 7?

For powers that aren't attack or defense powers you can have whatever ranks you want. If you power stunt or alternate power from those to attack or defense, you are still limited by power level.

How does Acute Senses work, exactly?

cute (1 or 2 ranks):

You can sense fine details about anything
you can detect with a particular sense. Visual and auditory senses are
acute for humans. 1 rank for one sense, 2 for an entire sense type

More specifically, that "Visual and auditory senses are acute for humans". Does that mean most characters get that for free, and it's only worth purchasing for senses like Scent and such?

And what does that last line mean?

So you could have magic 20 or super speed 20, but if you use one of them to attack, your limit would still be 7.

Acute senses let you use those senses to identify items or navigate with them. Humans have acute hearing (pitch, recognize a voice), vision. Dogs have acute smell.

There is also analytical. Daredevil has analytical senses. Terminator has analytical sight.

Does that help?

Yep. Thanks. =)

So, theoretically, you could have a Telekinesis 20, but the second you use it to attack, the attack is treated as Telekinesis 7?

Yeah. Basically you can lift a bajillion tons of inanimate objects, but when you try to use it to lift and toss a guy, it's of lower rank.

Best thing to do in such circumstances is to pad your combat ability down to the appropriate PL, but do it by adding on enough extras to make it a really sweet, really powerful, but PL appropriate ability.

So given the previous example of Telekinesis 20 (costing 40 pp), instead of:

Telekinetic Blast: Blast 7 (14 pp)

You could have:

Force Mastery: Blast 7 (Area, Perception Range, Selective; Affects Insubstantial 2, Incurable, Subtle 2 (Undetectable)).

So while they are ostensibly the same thing, alternate powers of Telekinesis allowing it to be used as an attack, they are far from equal: one is a standard ranged blast, allowing you to take a shot at a single foe in your range, while the other power would allow you simultaneously attack each and every opponent that you are able to perceive (even ghosts and other ethereal creatures), while endagering none of your allies, and striking each enemy automatically, and resolving against their toughness, as there is no chance to dodge a perception attack. And due to the subtle nature of the attack, not a single one of the targets would know for sure who was actually attacking them, and who they needed to counterattack to prevent further attacks.

In essence, not all alternate abilities are created equal, so it pays to be creative, and use all the points that the alternate power would allow you to expend.

Ended up spending most of my points on extra senses (Darkvision, Infravision, Ultravision, Scent, Acute Scent, and Extended range on Sight and hearing), random Feats like Eidetic Recollection and Jack of All Trades, and skills so combat-wise I'm pretty much limited to "smack it" and "disarm it", but I'm okay with that.

Check my math?

Still not 100% sure on story. I know a few things I want, I just need to bring them together.

1.) He's part dragon, and/or has draconic power from some source.

2.) He hates the Denarians for some personal reason (I'm thinking either his mom or dad IS one of them).

3.) He wants to be a Knight of the Cross, and is affiliated with them in some way. I'm thinking though after some thought that rather than having him be a worthy Knight, he's someone who merely wants the power. The power to do great good and fight evil, for certain, but as we've seen that's not exactly enough to be a Knight (with Murph and Dresden being unworthy as well, despite Murph especially being a really good person).

4.) He owns a bookshop for his day job.

Side note, is there any real downside to taking Dodge Focus several times and Uncanny Dodge instead of spending points on Defense? It seems to end up all around better (well, cheaper) unless someone can bypass all your senses.

Didn't Michael Carpenter rescue Felicity (his wife) from a Dragon? Maybe a tie in there?

Also a dragon featured in the newest MHI book.

Or one of the Denarians could be draconic? One assumes there are 30 of them. We haven't seen them all.

Well, we know some of the coins are locked away somewhere, but yeah we have no idea how many or still in play or which one could "get loose" next.

That gives me an idea. Perhaps he fought his demon possessed parent and was injured, which somehow mutated him?

I have no clue of anything about Monster Hunter International.

Side note, is there any real downside to taking Dodge Focus several times and Uncanny Dodge instead of spending points on Defense? It seems to end up all around better (well, cheaper) unless someone can bypass all your senses.

The main drawback is that Uncanny Dodge does not cover all circumstances; when you take the feat it has to be attached to a particular sense (hearing, sight, smell, a mental sight...), and if someone is able to defeat that sense (stealth, obscure, invisibility, mental cloak, etc.) your Uncanny Dodge will not apply.

Second, Uncanny Dodge will allow you to retain your Dodge bonuses due to surprise, but not for much else. Feints, bluffs, terrain or powers that cause loss of dodge bonus, etc., you are still vulnerable to all of those.

So, in the end, it's a calculated risk. Uncanny dodge works most of the time, but it won't work all of the time.

Hm. I think I'll roll with it regardless (it seems like most people will be mor econcerned with hiding themselves from sight and hearing before scent, though maybe I'll swap it to Infravision instead so they'd have to hide their heat signature).

I'm at exactly 140 points and don't want to drop anything, but good to know for the future.

Edit: Though I haven't allocated my equipment yet. I may drop some points off Dodge Focus to get some light armor.

What if he somehow was involved with one of the Knights fighting his parent and was covered with blood during the battle. That way he has seen the power of a Knight and has the dragon thing covered.

That could work. I'm thinking Sanya probably makes the most sense (spending the most time off-screen of all the Knights, so less likely to cause any major lore conflicts), though maybe Shiro if it was several years ago?

Maybe he met Sanya in Iran or wherever he was in the most recent book while he was tracking his mom (or dad?) down.

In the classic tale of Sigurd and Fafnir (Fafnir being the dragon), after Sigurd kills Fafnir, he bathes in the blood and drinks it, making him super strong and making his skin completely incuttable, except for a small spot where a leaf had stuck to his skin when he was getting into the bath of blood. Naturally, when he is killed himself, it is because he told a supposed friend of this single vulnerable spot as a symbol of trust.

Yeah, that is sort f where I was going. Might not want to kill of the parent though, thus eliminating complications.

Oh, the parent definitely won't be dead (as that takes away much of his motivation to become a Knight in that case), but Denarians can regenerate like crazy. I have no problem picturing Esperacchius opening up a big arterial spray and Aaron getting bathed in blood (and perhaps more than that, he was unconscious from a wound and the blood seeped into the open gash, mingling with his own?), but the Denarian still getting away.

Hey guys,

With the help of the GM, I'm trying to build my "Fire Jinn". Suggestions are welcome :) I'm trying to give him Evasion/Imp evasion and some Rage too, because I think it fits better! Feel free to comment here or PM me ideas :)

Took a glance; haven't gone through in any detail, but one thing jumped out: your flame sword is an area effect attack. Keep on mind that in M&M 2e extras cannot be turned on and off (though feats still can). That basically means you can't use that attack at all when allies are close by, unless you are ok with giving them a bit of a charbroil.

Second, I don't see any alternate powers. If there are two powers you don't see yourself using at the same time (or can't, as they are both instant - or as your TK is concentration duration, you would not be able to use it and your flame at the same time (I don't think - I haven't reread concentration duration in a bit), so it might be wise to make one an alternate of the other. It's a huge savings, as it goes from full cost down to 1pp).

Yes, the fire area and the tk should be alternate powers of the strike.

One thing that jumps out is: How fast do you need to be? If I'm reading the table right (it's a bit more...vague than the 3e version), you can do in 3 seconds what normally takes someone a minute.

So you can cover 300 feet in a single move action, or 600 feet per round, or 6000 feet per minute. A little over 60 miles per hour.

Did you mean to move as fast as a car, or did you want to move a bit slower (1 rank of speed ups you to 10 MPH, or a little over 2 times the speed of a normal human)? If so, you could shave 5-10 points off right there and be under the limit.

Rynjin. you could switch your melee focus feat for the one that gives a bonus to a specific weapon and save 1 or 2 points there.
Then use the extra point/points for equipment: armor vest.
Also, where's the sword coming from?
I didn't see any equipment or a device on your sheet.

I believe the sword has a crit range of 19-20, so improves crit should make it 18-20.

I haven't allocated Equipment points, but I have 10.

I don't want to be ONLY able to use a sword, so I split the points between the normsl 2:1 attack boost and melee focus.

I think I spent too many points on skills. Aren't we limited to a number of ranks equal to PL? I put 11 ranks in everything for some reason.

Hm. I think I'll roll with it regardless (it seems like most people will be mor econcerned with hiding themselves from sight and hearing before scent, though maybe I'll swap it to Infravision instead so they'd have to hide their heat signature).

Uncanny dodge is a sense type - its one of Visual, Auditory, Olfactory, Tactile, Mental, Special.

One thing that jumps out is: How fast do you need to be? If I'm reading the table right (it's a bit more...vague than the 3e version), you can do in 3 seconds what normally takes someone a minute.

Urban fantasy usually requires less speed than superheroes. Generally I'd limit it to speed 1, or perhaps 2 for something that's truly supernaturally strong. Then people probably have vehicles for long-distance travel.

I think I spent too many points on skills. Aren't we limited to a number of ranks equal to PL? I put 11 ranks in everything for some reason.

I was trying to figure that out. I looked at it at first and though that is way too many skill points.

I was always under the impression that the max skill modifier was PL+5. However, when I'm rereading it, all it ever seems to say is Skill Ranks are limited to PL+5, meaning in a PL 7 game you could have 12 ranks in the skill, plus your ability modifier (such as +7 for a high stat) for a skill modifier of +19. I'm still looking because I'm actually hoping that's wrong, as I'm having trouble coming up with enough points for skills as it is...

I know how you feel! So many great powers that I start running into issues finding room for the important stuff like skills and feats. Anyway, this is Labrat's submission and I'd be endlessly appreciative if anyone could check my math. Given that I've only just learned the system, I have even less faith in it than I normally would. I'll be posting up here with more exposition about who he actually is in a few hours.

Rules question for those of you who enjoy such things...

I presently have my Sword and Handgun basically set up as devices. However, I was interested in the concept of how such a thing would work as a magically enhanced weapon.

What I am thinking is buying a sword and pistol as equipment, paying the Equipment Point cost, and then using the base stats of the weapon as a base from which to build on for the power/finished version.

Sword +3 19-20 Slashing — Med 5

Heavy pistol +4 20 Ballistic 40 ft. Medium 8

What my thought is, is that one could take such a weapon, using its damage bonus (in addition to any the user might have in the case of the sword) as the total "Strength Bonus" of the user, before the Power version is added on.

So, I'm thinking with a pistol, you could add on a power like:

Equipment 2: Heavy Pistol 8ep = 2pp
Device 5: Augmented Heavy Pistol
. . .Blast 3 (Penetrating 7; Accurate, Affects Insubstantial 2, Homing 3, Improved Range 2, Mighty 3, Subtle) 6+7+1+2+3+2+3+1=25pp

What we end up with is a gun that can be used as a mundane gun, when it is useful to do so, but then can also be used as a magically enhanced boom-stick when you need a heavy hitter. As the bullet fires, it is magically sped-up, coated in energies that allow it to punch through armour (paying for all +7 of the damage bonus, and not just the Blast part), magically guided to it's target, and mystically silenced. It has Mighty 3 times over, as per the rules of Mighty Strikes, you need the feat one time for each point of strength you intend to add onto a ranged Damage effect.

So what do you think? It seems legal and appropriate use of the rules to me, but since I've never seen anyone else do it before, I thought I would run it by the community (and GM) to get a reaction, criticisms, and opinions.

What I am thinking is buying a sword and pistol as equipment, paying the Equipment Point cost, and then using the base stats of the weapon as a base from which to build on for the power/finished version.

As a GM I'd be very leery of stacking equipment and devices. It's sort of double dipping on point-shaving. It's also sort of weird - is this like a special silencer that screws onto the barrel? If it's one item, then it should be one item rules-wise. Basically a device.

I'd feel a little better about stacking equipment and an innate power. I.E. you have a spell that amplifies guns. But I'd still judge it on the specific effects.

Please note that equipment is inherently more fragile than devices. Especially if somebody's using Dresden-style magic that messes up technology. On the other hand, getting a replacement gun is much easier.

I was always under the impression that the max skill modifier was PL+5. However, when I'm rereading it, all it ever seems to say is Skill Ranks are limited to PL+5, meaning in a PL 7 game you could have 12 ranks in the skill, plus your ability modifier (such as +7 for a high stat) for a skill modifier of +19. I'm still looking because I'm actually hoping that's wrong, as I'm having trouble coming up with enough points for skills as it is...

Yes, these are the limits. But in most M&M games I've seen, people don't usually push the envelope on skills unless that is their schtick. I'm expecting that 10 or 11 will be a good level to have skills at for most things.

As a GM I'd be very leery of stacking equipment and devices. It's sort of double dipping on point-shaving.

Good perspective. It is points shaving (I'm looking for places to save, given the Skill ranks revelation), but it seems to me that it is only shaving once (not double dipping), and doing it in a legitimate way, because you are still paying for the regular base item, and you are paying for the enhancements legitimately, the same way you would if you started by throwing the bullet.

It's also sort of weird - is this like a special silencer that screws onto the barrel? If it's one item, then it should be one item rules-wise. Basically a device.

I think it would be simultaneously equipment and a device, with the Device features more or less being button activated (though probably with an unseen magical activation). Kind of like how an M16 will have a selector for Safe, Fire, Burst, this gun would have settings for Safe, Fire, Magic. Of course, a device like a silencer that attaches to a mundane weapon and enhances it could be a reasonable compromise. (My son has car sets where launchers start the car moving with an elastic-band powered switch, but then battery powered boosters can grab the already moving car and speed it up to much greater speeds; that's what comes to mind when I picture this. I think there are kinds of magnetic rail/gauss weapons that work the same way, adding additional speed to an already moving projectile.)

I'd feel a little better about stacking equipment and an innate power. I.E. you have a spell that amplifies guns. But I'd still judge it on the specific effects.

Please note that equipment is inherently more fragile than devices. Especially if somebody's using Dresden-style magic that messes up technology. On the other hand, getting a replacement gun is much easier.

True, but there are older kinds of guns that come across as primitive enough to be pretty immune to magical influence. Though it's a little inconsistent in the books (in the first book, people have their revolvers jam when trying to shoot at him, which is mechanically very unlikely), where in later stories, the rules start becoming more settled, and Harry specifically states on a few occasions that his mojo only seems to start messing with things around WWII origin or later, and anything older is pretty much immune unless he deliberately hexes it. When faced with this problem (in Summer Knight, I believe), Murphy switches out her sidearm for an original Colt 1911, and it proves old enough not to suffer any mishaps. (Prior to this, I think she'd been using a Sig.)

Speaking of replacing equipment, it brings up a different question I had. Does the equipment section have any details on disposable or single use equipment? I notice that a Frag grenade costs 15 ep, which translates to 3 pp. That is hella expensive for something you only ever use once. Have a commando type character that uses grenades? Throw it, and permanently reduce your character value by 3 pp.

What I'm guessing is that it is more like a "grenade-slot" that you are paying for, meaning that you basically have access to one at a time, but when it comes time for the next adventure, you'd have replaced the used grenade from your kit with a new one, once again giving you access to one grenade for the given session. By the same token, if you have a gun, and someone chops it in half with their lightsaber or adamantium claws, you are screwed for the time being, but by the time the next adventure rolls around you'd have acquired a replacement. Is that right?

P.S. I'm not planning on using grenades.

Edit:

Yup, replacing equipment is free, it just takes time. So, in general, like in that grenade example, it's permission to have access to one grenade at a time, but you'll have another by the next adventure, or if you deliberately take time within the storyline to get to the army base, or to your arms-dealer in order to get a replacement.

Repairing an item requires a Craft check. You can also affect jury-rigged repairs to temporarily restore the item to normal (see Craft, page 45, for details). Replacing damaged or destroyed equipment requires only time, although the GM has the final say as to how much time. It’s easy to replace a lost item when the store is right around the corner, harder when it’s the middle of the night or you’re out in the middle of nowhere. Gamemasters can allow players to spend a hero point to have a replacement for a piece of equipment as an on-hand item (see On-Hand Items, page 133).

Philo Pharynx wrote:

As a GM I'd be very leery of stacking equipment and devices. It's sort of double dipping on point-shaving.

Good perspective. It is points shaving (I'm looking for places to save, given the Skill ranks revelation), but it seems to me that it is only shaving once (not double dipping), and doing it in a legitimate way, because you are still paying for the regular base item, and you are paying for the enhancements legitimately, the same way you would if you started by throwing the bullet.

Philo Pharynx wrote:

It's also sort of weird - is this like a special silencer that screws onto the barrel? If it's one item, then it should be one item rules-wise. Basically a device.

I think it would be simultaneously equipment and a device, with the Device features more or less being button activated (though probably with an unseen magical activation). Kind of like how an M16 will have a selector for Safe, Fire, Burst, this gun would have settings for Safe, Fire, Magic. Of course, a device like a silencer that attaches to a mundane weapon and enhances it could be a reasonable compromise. (My son has car sets where launchers start the car moving with an elastic-band powered switch, but then battery powered boosters can grab the already moving car and speed it up to much greater speeds; that's what comes to mind when I picture this. I think there are kinds of magnetic rail/gauss weapons that work the same way, adding additional speed to an already moving projectile.)

Yes it fits in the rules, but M&M is such a toolkit system that it allows you to make broken combinations and expects the GM to be able to handle them. You can make perception range powers that don't allow a defense as well. :)

Equipment is less expensive because of two things - 1)It's limited in what it does, 2)It's expected to be more vulnerable to breakage/loss/etc. than devices. Putting them in one item removes the reasons you get the point break for it. It's just point shaving. Either that or you accept that the combined device is less durable.

As for skills, I don't think this is an issue. If it is, then that needs to be brought up ahead of time.

@Tumbler, How skill heavy do you expect this game is going to be? In M&M games I've played as superheroes, few people max out skills. Since that's the expectations that the game is built around, then that's about what the enemies have.

Here's my current submission... Obviously still need quite some work and it's not finished, but at least it's something going on. :)

Yes, these are the limits. But in most M&M games I've seen, people don't usually push the envelope on skills unless that is their schtick. I'm expecting that 10 or 11 will be a good level to have skills at for most things.

I will say, skills ARE sort of my "schtick", at least to an extent. Aaron doesn't have any active special abilities, just passive utility and protection, and skills.

Question on Impervious Protection: Are we limited in ranks of this by PL as well?

It adds to Toughness saves, so at max it looks like we'd be limited to 7 ranks. Unless it's like the other powers, and we can only have a maximum of +7 to Toughness, but Impervious 14 or something ridiculous like that?

Question on Impervious Protection: Are we limited in ranks of this by PL as well?

It adds to Toughness saves, so at max it looks like we'd be limited to 7 ranks. Unless it's like the other powers, and we can only have a maximum of +7 to Toughness, but Impervious 14 or something ridiculous like that?

Default MM2e rules are that you can have Impervious up to your Toughness rating (whether it is natural toughness, or via Protection, or what have you).

MM3e changed that to 1/2 your Toughness rating, and I personally think that this was a good change, and I've seen that house-ruled into 2e games before for that reason.

Basically, if you have Toughness 7 (Impervious 7), you never have to make a Toughness saving for anything less than your impervious rating. That not only means that you are automatically impervious to any mundane equipment (Shotgun slugs and high powered Rifles are a 6, I think), but minions and other underlings of the big boss will often be completely ineffective against you, as it doesn't matter how many vampire-spawn with their Damage 7 claws you face, you can ignore them, crush them at your leisure, and just go for the BBEG.

If you trade off (Defense 4, Toughness 10) it gets even more ridiculous, as even rocket launchers and running you over with a semi-truck become ineffective, and you don't even have to roll in order to ignore them. In fact, if the MIB's aren't carrying super-devices to defeat your Imperiousness, you can ignore them too. I think this kind of ruins the mystique in a lower powered Urban Fantasy setting, so I would actually advocate for the house-ruled version. At Toughness 8/Impervious 4, you would be completely immune to handguns and most small arms fire, but if they brought out the sniper rifles and bazooka's, at least they'd still be a threat.

Crazy day at work. I will weigh in in a few hours.

Ah. I didn't realize damages were usually so low.

I currently have 16 Con, and then Impervious Protection 4. I had assumed this would essentially make me immune to small handguns and thugs wielding baseball bats and not much else. Is that correct?

Pretty much. Police issue and gang-banger favourites 9mm and .40 Cal's will bound off you without requiring a save. Same goes for even big hand guns like your Desert Eagles and Smith .500's. Assault Rifles, Sniper's, and Shotguns are all 5's, meaning you would have to roll to save if it with one of those, though you are still better than average at shrugging them off.

For a thug with a baseball bat (Club +2) to get at +5 on damage, he'd need a strength 16 (+3), which is not actually all that much, now that I look at it.

"You can ignore those guys, they're just using Desert Eagles, but watch out! That one has a bat!"

Chalk that one up to game-rule idiosyncrasies, I guess.

I would say that Impervious 4 is about as high as I would want to see. That is about right with what we see in several books that come to mind. That would mean that shotguns, sniper rifles, and grenades would all be effective. And I absolutely plan to use grenades :)

I would entertain a character with higher toughness if that was their only shtick or it was limited (not to criticals) to represent someone like Achilles, but it wouldn't be my favorite trait. It isn't much fun to have to nuke the rest of the party to affect the tough guy.