It's weird, by RAW no one really suffers any penalties for not sleeping, which seems odd. I noted on the d20PFSRD they have a side box they took from one of the AP's that seems to make some sense and actually isn't very harsh at all ( probably even too easy considering how easily the saves are made and no ill effects. )
What follows is a series of edits as I try to figure out how things work. Hopefully it's not too jumbled...
A lot of classes require 8 hours of rest or even sleep (witch) to get back their spells. However how often I'm able to function quite fine the next day after only 4 sleep, I don't think it's unreasonable that adventurers should be able to do this as well.
Huh, the portable lab is indeed only +1. That's really weird. Masterwork artisan tools give +2 for only 50 GP. How does that work out? Do you need a lab to be able to do it on the move at all? Do we need both? Do we take a -2 check for not having the appropriate tools, even though we have the lab (for a total of -1?). Could we have retroed in to ask for masterwork (or even normal) artisan tools (alchemy) as well?
Also I guess Goliath doesn't really need 8 hours sleep either eh? He'll need to roll an 8 with guidance or 7 if you allow the lab bonus to work for multiple people. Are multiple people allowed to use the same lab bonus. It kinda makes sense since they are all helping out doing it at the same lab.
Looking over the classes I'm quite surprised see that it's only wizard, witch and arcanist that have any requirement at all on the amount of sleep needed. They all need 8 hours of sleep in order to be able to prepeare spells. So I guess Xanya and Simon could stay up too... How does Quassine only need 2 hours sleep? Arcanist says:
An arcanist must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the arcanist decides what spells to prepare and refreshes her available spell slots for the day.
Benefit(s) As a side effect of your stasis, you gain all the benefits of 8 hours of sleep in only 2 hours. This allows a spellcaster who must rest to prepare spells to do so after only 2 hours, but does not allow a spellcaster to prepare spells more than once per day.
Aha, he has a trait that specifically calls out saving a spellcaster from sleeping.
So what penalties are you ruling for not sleeping?
Characters who do not get a full night's sleep may suffer the effects of fatigue. If a PC does not get at least 6 hours of sleep, she must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be fatigued and take a –1 penalty on all other checks and saving throws against sleep effects. A second night without sleep requires another DC 15 Fortitude save. A failed save results in the character becoming exhausted and the penalties increasing to –2. A third failed save on the next night increases the penalties to –3.
So if we only need 6 hours of sleep we can still stay up until midnight then leave 7 after Kiki/Goliath prepares their spells. Xanya can't really risk being fatigued. While her chance of passing that save is pretty good, it's not incredibly so and she can't rage while fatigued.
What is a reasonable time to get up in the morning? I feel that Xanya wouldn't want to dwadle more than necessary so leaving between 6 and 8 sometime seems like a good idea. I dunno what the rest of you are thinking though... By the rules if we want to travel for more than 8 hours in a day we have to start making constitution checks...
I'm kinda waiting on input from the rest of you about what potions to make, especially Goliath... I could also make potions from the spells the rest of you have if that is preferred. Kiki is the only one without spontaneous curing (though atm Xanya only have channeling to help heal others atm), so getting a potion of CLW might be unecesarry. Though that might be a case of better safe than sorry.
What follows is a series of edits as I try to figure out how things work. Hopefully it's not too jumbled...
It is strange that it isn't spelled out more in general what happens if you forego sleep. I think I will use the alternate rules from the AP. They are pretty forgiving, although I might modify them so that you get large penalties after a few days of no sleep, otherwise at even mid levels making those fort saves if laughable. Sure people can skip a night's sleep or go on 3-4 hours a day for a few days, but you will feel it. It's also one thing to sit at a desk all day vs trek through the wilderness with heavy gear and then expect to fight in melee combat.
Since you guys are all heroic, hardy and in good shape it won't be too much of a big deal, but if it comes down to continually exploiting the rules and skipping sleep to do other stuff, I will probably modify things to make a little more sense.
Huh, the portable lab is indeed only +1. That's really weird. Masterwork artisan tools give +2 for only 50 GP. How does that work out? Do you need a lab to be able to do it on the move at all? Do we need both? Do we take a -2 check for not having the appropriate tools, even though we have the lab (for a total of -1?). Could we have retroed in to ask for masterwork (or even normal) artisan tools (alchemy) as well?
All alchemists needs an alchemist crafting kit to make extracts, mutagens and bombs, but needs either a lab or portable lab to make potions or any of the alchemical stuff like alch fire, tanglefoot bags, smokesticks etc. There are no artisan tools for alchemy that I know of, its the lab that you use. A full lab is +2 the portable one is +1 since its smaller. Alchemy takes a lot of stuff to get done right apparently.
Yeah no sleep can drive you crazy but in a world that has magic to remove fatigue and exhaustion who knows.
A couple potions of mage armor would be nice, other than that I'm good.
Yeah clearly there are spells and powers to bypass it, and restorative magics and abilities to remove fatigue, but your average non magical shmuck needs their beauty rest.
I read about the people in the military who train or have to go days without sleep and then carry heavy packs and go on mega hikes, sure they can do it, but I can't imagine you are as efficient as if you had a full rest.
As a runner I have done races on 2-3 hours of sleep, and I can feel the performance hit.
Eh, its common sense everyone needs sleep, unless you are undead or a construct or whatever heh.
Yeah no sleep can drive you crazy but in a world that has magic to remove fatigue and exhaustion who knows.
A couple potions of mage armor would be nice, other than that I'm good.
So you aren't a fan of enlarge person either? I think the extra reach and damage would be quite good for Goliath. Your defense doesn't even decrease all that much since you still got parry. It's actually faster to drink a potion than to cast the spell. It's your character though and I won make any for you (nor cast the spell) if you don't want it.
You know I didn't even think of it. I forgot that giants are humanoids and not monstrous humanoids. So sure enlarge person wouldn't be bad.
So should I make 3 potions and you guys start crafting other stuff or should we make a fourth potion? I prefer to start making acid. Also I'm definitely making a mage armor and an enlarge potion. What else should I make? Another mage armor or CLW? Opinions? Hopefully we'll be able to get mage armor from our spell slots most of the time.
If you agree with me about crafting acid you guys could start posting rolls (or take 10 for Quassine if he wants (with guidance)), so we'll be ready to move on once we've actually reached a descision...
Acid is fine, I have no way to damage a small swarm. Are you looking for Aid rolls while crafting? If we take 10 it's auto.
Acid is fine, I have no way to damage a small swarm. Are you looking for Aid rolls while crafting? If we take 10 it's auto.
You can't take 10 while aiding, that would defeat the whole point since the DC is 10 (It's in the rules for aiding). Xanya will be busy with the potions and Quassine is better at crafting than her anyway. So my suggestion is that Quassine crafts the acid while the rest of you aid him. He'll get +1 from the lab and +1 from guidance. He can either take 10 and make 25 with a tiny bit aid or he could game to reach 30/35 with a high roll.
We've already spent 5 days RPing about gear. I understand that it might not be all that interesting and that people are busy, but it feels a bit awkward to wait for people to respond to this now :S Could we maybe move on and figure out the gear afterwards?. Let's say Xanya makes 1 potion of enlarge person, 1 person of mage armor and 1 potion of cure light wounds and then either Quassine makes something or we'll save the rest for another potion later?
I updated Xanya's gear for tracking, but I'm assuming Goliath will carry most of the gear. Can you also carry my tent Goliath?
Quassine can make Alchemist Fire, Acid, or anything CT will let me tonight and in the field.
I guess the advantage to making alchemist's fire is that you'll actually craft that faster. A 30 on the craft check is good enough to make it overnight and halfway into another one, while a 30 for acid will only make it to 8/10. DC 30 requires you to roll though (however failing the DC 20 check entierly will be quite hard with all the bonuses you get, so it might be worth it, you could get +6 from aid (though it's only like 60% chance for Goliath to succeed) if everyone helped +1 from the lab and another +1 from guidance). As for what CT will let you, he already said we could make what we wanted. The full rules for the crafting rules we are using are here. Of course the advantage of Acid is that the damage per GP is nearly double (since the majority of the damage comes from our respective throw anything), so in the end I'll leave the choice down to you whether to try for acid or for fire (and whether to roll or not).
So in order for people to help out aiding we need to stay up until 2 am. Then we need 6 hours of sleep and 1 hours of praying, which means we'll set out 9 the next day. Does that sound ok?
sure
Had I been more available yesterday, Simon would've suggested canine scent lures. They are likely to have worgs, and that would incapacitate the dog and the giant we hit it with too.
CT, would taking 10 for a total of 21 be ok and possible or do I need to roll in this case?
CT, would taking 10 for a total of 21 be ok and possible or do I need to roll in this case?
You can normally take 10 on craft checks, CT haven't mentioned anything about not being able to do so the half a dozen times I've talked about taking 10 on craft.. If you take 10 your total would be 24, not 21 due to +1 from the lab, +1 from guidance and +2 from cryxial aiding. If anyone else aided as well you could get 26.
Let me rephrase, it would be 21 without bonuses.
I could see disallowing Cryxial from aiding since he doesn't have hands. Thoughts on that CT?
I guess we are waiting on your decision about what to craft and any potential aid rolls before we move on then Quassine?
Goliath will only aid if no one else does and is really needed. He likes to sleep and while not lazy prefers to get as much as he can and has not the head or knowledge to aid well :)
Yes you can take 10 on craft checks since you are just doing an average job. Cryxial can aid in alchemy. There may be non manual jobs like double checking formulas or doing math, and he can use his mouth if he just needs to carry stuff or something. There may be other skills where it doesn't make sense, but it can probably slide for this.
So we don't have to back track, what were we able to make with a combine score of 25 unless someone else was able to assist? Sorry for my in and out posting, lots of work this week from being on call to a Reverse DMVPN replacement and migration. I also double-firewalled my home network with a Juniper SRX-210PoE, although I don't use the PoE,yet at least.
So we don't have to back track, what were we able to make with a combine score of 25 unless someone else was able to assist? Sorry for my in and out posting, lots of work this week from being on call to a Reverse DMVPN replacement and migration. I also double-firewalled my home network with a Juniper SRX-210PoE, although I don't use the PoE,yet at least.
For DC 25 you can get either 6 GP progress for an Acid Flask(60% done) or 8 GP progress for alchemist fire(40% done). If all of the 3 others succeed at aiding you would make 8 GP progress for Acid Flask or 12 GP progress for alchemist fire. Though I guess there is little chance of that given that none of them have posted that they were thinking to do so. CT pasted the relevant parts of the rules above, it's only a couple of sentences. Assuming noone else aids I would suggest to go with the Acid Flask. The total cost for the Acid Flask is 2.5 GP while the cost for Alchemist Fire is 5 GP and we have 25 GP of alchemical crafting materials to use so we can make 10 acid or 5 fire.
@Simon: What are canine scent lures? I can't find the rules for those anywhere. Do they just hinder tracking or something else as well? If they just hinder tracking I don't think they are crucial for our current situation. We aren't trying to escape them, we are trying to face them (at least that's what Xanya would think, I understand that we might want to flee at some point).
Not sure what weekend plans are for all being a long weekend. I leave for SCA event tomorrow so won't be posting until Sunday night. Leaving around Noon tomorrow so will check in tonight and before I leave.
I know nothing about any long weekend...
I must say I've grown a bit frustrated with the recent posting rate. I guess it's just different prioritizes. Is the game not interesting anymore? 10-20 minutes a day to catch up and make a post is not that much.
Kiki could aid too
(she doesn't need to prepare spells right now)
Kiki could aid too
(she doesn't need to prepare spells right now)
Roll then :).
I post as often as the game allows. I spend all day on the boards. I am in 12 games. I have posted probably 30 or more times today. This one moves at the pace of the GM and he is running 7 tables and we are being held up with crafting things and sorting our inventory needs. Not saying it isn't needed but to play it out bogs down the game.
It is Labor Day weekend here in the states. I don't post much on weekend anyways as that's time with the wife, projects or table top games, but on SCA weekends I'm out of town and don't have a smart phone nor like using my wife's to post. So I don't post when not at a computer, though I don't think I'm the problem. I told CT that I wanted to join an active table b/c of my posting rate, but this is one of my slower games I would say. It picks up at times. Though it looks like 3 are about to die or are dead, but I guess that happens.
Oh, your activity is great :). Sure the game will never be faster than the GM's post, but that's not what has been holding us back lately. Neither Simon nor Kiki have posted in gameplay this week. Part of that is probably because they are busy and part might be because of the state the game is in. Some might view crafting as boring, especially when not participating yourself and we've done nothing but talking for several RL months with not much ability for our characters to affect what's happening. Even the challenge of talking with the NPCs have mostly been solved by them having their own spells. Quassine has also been busy as he just posted.
Despite all this though we are still the table with the most posts... Hopefully Simon and Kiki will have more time for us once they settle in routines for their semesters and more exciting things happens in the game.
In other news I think I'll just take 1 level of warlord with the barbarian side of my main gestalt at level 9. Barbarian doesn't scale all that well. It'll delay my rage power progression and give me later access to greater rage. I think that's less costly than spending 5 levels of twinmind to do it, though I might be wrong since this way I'll never get greater rage, if we ever do make it to level 20 (well unless CT will allow me to progress barbarian further at that point of course). Also, I still haven't read up on the weapon rules properly, I probably should...
I read through it and I must say that the increases to the various class abilities seems a bit unbalanced. I think the 1 FPP spent on increasing a class ability should give eqivalent of the feats "extra rage", "extra bombs", "extra evolutions" etc if one such exists, otherwise +1 increment is probably fine. Noone is going to pick +1 rage round, but +6 rage rounds is a bit more appealing.
I am however a bit dubious is this really feels all that special. These are almost all already feats. I think it would be cool if there was a way to get things you normally couldn't get, for example archtype abilities of archtypes you didn't pick (or the base class if you did pick an arctype), "quicken" class abilities (not that Xanya have much of it, but being able to use the normal summoner SLA or an alchemist's bombs as a move or even swift(double cost) would be sweet), stuff from templates, 3pp or 3.5 feats etc. For example song of the heart (which is basically just +1 to inspire courage) would be cool for a bard. Darkstalker for Kiki (though I seem to vaguely recall there being an eqivalent psionic feat?). Reckless Rage for Xanya (+2 bonus to str and con when raging and -2 AC). I don't suppose you have any plans to include any of this? This would probably come to a lot of "case by case basis" though, which I guess it'll be nice for you to avoid.
I didn't remember the term before.
They're called Wild Animal Musk or Beast lure. One works on all animals one works on one kind. The flavor text says it makes the target smell like easy prey, so I thought we could use it to make them attack the giants.
The game is still interesting. I pay the most attention to this game of any of mine. I just don't have the time for the involved posts I want to do here. And yes, part of it is because Simon knows little to nothing about alchemy.
Also, Xanya can use poisons effectively, right?
I looked at that, and it doesn't seem to affect the attitude of animals at all, it just makes the target easier to track and it'll help against invisibility. The worgs probably start as friendly to their masters. Hence they won't really attack them. I guess it's meant to either use as a sort of trap or to make it harder for a target to escape, though I guess it could be used to attract animals that aten already friendly. It's a splash weapon, not a posion, which weirdly enough means that both Quassine and Xanya gets to add int to damage with it. I don't think it'll be worth it though.
Xanya still got posion use, which means she won't posion herself when using alchemy. I traded away the abilities that makes it faster to apply posion though, so it would have to be used outside of combat. I'm not planning on picking up any of the abilities increasing the effectiveness of posions either. Most monsters have good fort saves, making it hard to affect them with poison, though there are some feats and abilities making it a tiny bit easier (a bunch of alchemical discoveries and steel serpent maneuvers mostly). It's also prohibily expensive, paying a bunch of gold for every attack you make is not really sustainable, well useless you have a racial ability that lets you create posion like Kiki does.
I knew the scent lures were a long shot, but we had already chosen stuff anyways, so it doesn't matter quite as much.
I was gonna say that Simon produces venom naturally she could be using. He's not a Melee type character, but I chose it to reflect his wyvern ancestry. If Xanya can apply it, she's got a nearly endless supply to be obtaining in our downtime. It could be a fun interaction.
If CaveToad allows you either putting it in vials or coating her weapon that could work. The ability says that you have to do it to your own weapon. How long does the posion stay active on the weapon if so? As I said I traded away my faster posion abilities, so I would want to do it outside of combat. It's not very high DC, but it's great if it does work and as you say it doesn't actually cost anything.
(well unless CT will allow me to progress barbarian further at that point of course). Also, I still haven't read up on the weapon rules properly, I probably should...
When you progress past 20th you can still get to level 20 barb and have 1 warlord for example.
I read through it and I must say that the increases to the various class abilities seems a bit unbalanced. I think the 1 FPP spent on increasing a class ability should give eqivalent of the feats "extra rage", "extra bombs", "extra evolutions" etc if one such exists, otherwise +1 increment is probably fine. Noone is going to pick +1 rage round, but +6 rage rounds is a bit more appealing.
It is true that some of the FPP options aren't as good as others, its all perspective on what is important. The main goal with the extra bonus things was to give those without having to spend feats. Yes the ratio is not the same as the feats give, but I already spent a bunch of time trying to figure what I wanted, I didn't want to go through each one and nitpick the math. I get what you are going for, but its just there for a little extra boost.
I am however a bit dubious is this really feels all that special. These are almost all already feats. I think it would be cool if there was a way to get things you normally couldn't get, for example archtype abilities of archtypes you didn't pick (or the base class if you did pick an arctype), "quicken" class abilities (not that Xanya have much of it, but being able to use the normal summoner SLA or an alchemist's bombs as a move or even swift(double cost) would be sweet), stuff from templates, 3pp or 3.5 feats etc. For example song of the heart (which is basically just +1 to inspire courage) would be cool for a bard. Darkstalker for Kiki (though I seem to vaguely recall there being an eqivalent psionic feat?). Reckless Rage for Xanya (+2 bonus to str and con when raging and -2 AC). I don't suppose you have any plans to include any of this? This would probably come to a lot of "case by case basis" though, which I guess it'll be nice for you to avoid.
I considered adding new things, and I experimented with a few minor things, but overall I didn't want to go too overboard. There is plenty of stuff you can do with mythic and I may implement newer systems down the road as pertains to a character's defined Theme, but that is to come later.
I will have to determine how long the venom is good for etc or if that will work. I think it can be useful, but would not want it to be exploited overly much. Poison usually lasts one hit, then its done.
If everyone could make sure their sheets are accurately updated with your new equipment and emcumbrances. Please make sure you include all items. Things like spell component pouches, food, water, clothing, spell/formulae books often get ignored when calculating weight etc. These things all have encumbrance.
I looked back over it, and it isn't unlimited, which makes sense.
Prerequisites: Aberration, dragon, plant, or undead type, or grippli, half-undead, reptilian, or vishkanya subtype.
Benefit: Members of this race gain the following extraordinary ability: A number of times per day equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum 1/day), a member of this race can envenom a weapon that it wields with its toxic saliva or blood (using blood requires the creature to be injured when it uses this ability). Applying venom in this way is a swift action. When you take this trait, choose one of the following venoms.
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Life-Stealing Venom: Injury; save Fort DC 10 + 1/2 the user's Hit Dice + the user's Constitution modifier; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1 Con; cure 1 save.
It isn't rules as written, but what seems the most fair to me is if it can be distributed. Xanya has the skills to bleed it into a vial. Then it can be used for a day until it expires.
The main point is that it is now being used. Simon is not a combatant, and this is a good way to use outside of easy ink.
Plus I have a fun character interaction for it.
If everyone could make sure their sheets are accurately updated with your new equipment and emcumbrances. Please make sure you include all items. Things like spell component pouches, food, water, clothing, spell/formulae books often get ignored when calculating weight etc. These things all have encumbrance.
I looked at doing that last night, but I had very important homework that got in the way. I'll try and do it some time today. Working with multiple tabs on a phone is not fun, and I have to look up the weight for all of those.
Granted, I should probably list the things he has at all, but I'd rather do it all at once.
I looked back over it, and it isn't unlimited, which makes sense.
Prerequisites: Aberration, dragon, plant, or undead type, or grippli, half-undead, reptilian, or vishkanya subtype.
Benefit: Members of this race gain the following extraordinary ability: A number of times per day equal to its Constitution modifier (minimum 1/day), a member of this race can envenom a weapon that it wields with its toxic saliva or blood (using blood requires the creature to be injured when it uses this ability). Applying venom in this way is a swift action. When you take this trait, choose one of the following venoms.
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Life-Stealing Venom: Injury; save Fort DC 10 + 1/2 the user's Hit Dice + the user's Constitution modifier; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1 Con; cure 1 save.It isn't rules as written, but what seems the most fair to me is if it can be distributed. Xanya has the skills to bleed it into a vial. Then it can be used for a day until it expires.
The main point is that it is now being used. Simon is not a combatant, and this is a good way to use outside of easy ink.
Plus I have a fun character interaction for it.
Oh yes, limited per day, makes sense. Yeah, and it will last a day before it loses potency. Sure, go ahead and milk it into vial if you have spares.
In terms of speed and post/play time. I do try to update as often as is needed. Sometimes I try to intentionally wait for others to weigh in, but I understand that people have other things going on, myself included. Evenings can be tricky as I harvest my garden and do canning and spend time with the GF etc and keep the house in order.
Also, now with a lot of the planning, gearing up and 'paperwork' out of the way, I think things will move along quicker now that you are in the field, formally adventuring so to speak.
I hope I'll manage to keep Cryxial at light load, at least while raging. I should probably figure out the weight of things though... Goliath might have to help out carrying stuff.
About the poison, the duration of a day bottled up seems fair. How long would it last while applied though? If that lasted a day as well Xanya might want to apply it at once we set out... 1 hour? 10 minutes? 1 minute?
Probably somewhere between 1 to 10 minutes or so. If you are coating a weapon with some liquid, you have to be careful not to bump it and it will dry out at some point. I feel like someone asked me this already and I have to check on it. In any event, should be long enough to coat it before an impending combat and not have to worry too much about it.
Maybe through some alchemical research you can find a way to make it last longer ;)
(viagra for poison)
I agree with making acid for the best returns on our supplies and acid has other applications as well.
When the goatlings gave us things, did we account for who got the healer kit, bronze knife, and hand axe? Quassine probably has the leather working kit, since he's fixing the tents.
I'm just going to assume 5 vials of ink, two black and one each RYB.
I forgot the pathfinder kit comes with a dagger, so I'm just going to count one. He doesn't really need two.
Posting tonight, leaving work early to fix a configuration problem in the latest code release for my firewall and since I am on call, I rather VPN in than drive into work for a call.
When the goatlings gave us things, did we account for who got the healer kit, bronze knife, and hand axe? Quassine probably has the leather working kit, since he's fixing the tents.
I'm just going to assume 5 vials of ink, two black and one each RYB.
I forgot the pathfinder kit comes with a dagger, so I'm just going to count one. He doesn't really need two.
I think we should have Goliath carry those, though I have still noted their presence on my sheet.