Monster Mashup - Master Thread

Game Master CaveToad

Looking forward to playing. No idea what table a slightly unhinged changeling will fit or be best in. Whether she stays good or starts to slide probably depends on the team that surrounds and possibly influences her.

I'm also a full caster Xanya: Cleric 5 :)

I think something like a : Wizard/Alchemist/Bard would be awesome. You get to focus on Int/Cha. You get bombs for area damage, Wizard for control and utility, Bard to inspire the team and be the face.

I think Xanya is our highest Cha right now but she is crazy and random(not a bad thing). She and I have good diplomacy but I'm only cha 16. I'm pretty idealistic and make decision based on my honor. Someone reasonable and that could balance us out diplomatically would be good. I'm righteous but very pragmatic and vengeful. Think along the lines of the Punisher.

Look forward to having one of you join us.

I meant full arcane caster. Kiki is also full divine as a druid. I don't really agree with you that we need someone else diplomatic, I think Xanya can handle it, but I guess it wouldn't hurt. It is true that right now we would be a bit weak to swarms, but not terribly so as both Xanya and Quassine does decent damage with normal acid flasks (though we should pick up more). Either way I don't feel more damage is the way to go, but I guess it wouldn't hurt either.

@Magic Items: The item can hold any number of enchantments, up to however much money you pour into it combined with the amount of innate magic it has. The 'Innate Magic' is equal to your wealth-by-level.

You are not limited by slot, but you do pay half-again for any item that does not normally fit that slot (So, my Glowing Glove effect on my spear cost 50% more (3000)). Any enchantments beyond the first also have an increased cost (So my recent addition of +1 also cost 3000.) Obvious direct-upgrades (like +1 to +2) do not count as 'additional enchantments'.

You cannot use custom items, though I'm sure you could talk with Cavetoad about very specific things that are reasonable (as opposed to eternal mage armor for like 1-3000 gold). For example, I might ask him to increase the duration of the 'paintbrush' effect, and find a cost we can agree on... though that's a bit off. :)

Rolling for the table 2 spot:

5d6 13
5d6 10
5d6 dropped
5d6 13
5d6 14
5d6 14
5d6 11

13, 10, 13, 14, 14, 11

Welp, that's only 85. Bumping it to 90 and rearranging everything to my liking: 10, 12, 14, 18, 18, 18

Please just reuse the first rolls from your prior character if you doing a rebuild. I don't want people rolling multiple characters and picking and choosing which they like best, I only want one submission per character. This might seem sticklerish, but its for the best.

So, signature items...

I'm building a lantern for my table two submission.

Are we limited to only putting on enhancements, or can we add special abilities (or custom abilities) to the items? Is there a limit to the number of effects it can have? Do we have to pay extra for slotless/changed slot abilities?

I think this was answered, but let me know if I can help clear up any unanswered questions yet.

I did some review of submissions this weekend. I will finish up feedback and any questions I have or requests for rework/fixes.

I meant full arcane caster. Kiki is also full divine as a druid. I don't really agree with you that we need someone else diplomatic, I think Xanya can handle it, but I guess it wouldn't hurt. It is true that right now we would be a bit weak to swarms, but not terribly so as both Xanya and Quassine does decent damage with normal acid flasks (though we should pick up more). Either way I don't feel more damage is the way to go, but I guess it wouldn't hurt either.

"Full caster" becomes... interesting in the context of this campaign. A character with a single full-casting class is only really a full caster if they have access to an impressive list, but *also* the action economy to actually use those spells. And without a few DC-boosting feats and a focus on metamagic, they're essentially just support instead of offense.

It might just be a personal opinion, but I've been thinking of characters in this game more in terms of *dedicated* caster than full-caster. To the best of my knowledge, Teniel is the only character at any table who's sunk as much into spells as melee (save buffing characters who focus on neither), though that'll change with some of the new submissions I'm seeing.

Ok, I have figured out what I'm doing mechanically (oh god) and I am in the process of tabulating it all via excel to make sure I dot my I's and cross my T's.

Lily is going to be a Wizard//Warder//Cleric. I'm worshipping desna, and focusing on divination and ranged support.

I have finally figured out how throwing weapons are supposed to work (badly!) and have also figured out exactly what a starknife is (goofy!) and will be focusing on them because why not focus on them since I get free proficiency and this is wackyville?

I have no idea which of those columns is my primary column because I'm still trapped in the land of 'trying to sort out what I do' and not yet to the land of 'well what about 8 levels from now'.

I'll probably cheese dip oracle (spirit guide) next level. Unclear what mystery because I don't know what table I'm going to end up at. I have most of the individual pieces already built, just need to neaten it up. Hope everyone's weekend was good!

Expect my full crunch this evening, and revised story stuff after that since I've adapted quite a bit from my initial draft as I tried to wrestle lily into shape.

Well that was a book. Back to formatting.

I agree with you. Without a focus on casting outside of a single class the result is not much of a caster. None of the people at our table are focused on casting, even if they will eventually take 9th level spells. This is why I say our table is heavy on martials, while we got people casting spells, they'll mostly be used for support.

@CT/all: One option for one table could be that someone made a character out of the harpy we have picked up.

@Ash: It's always easy to get new spells. CT might overrule me on this, but I'd guess mundane items worth less than your character's level 1 starting wealth—anything you can craft from rocks, sticks, and spears is probably fine (our table has non-masterwork cloth armor and improvised artisan's tools, but a few of the other tables have leather/metal armor and real or masterwork artisan's tools)

Also, Ricochet Weapon doesn't stack with Ricochet Toss at all. Ricochet Toss is "weapons come back immediately" and far, far better; Ricochet Weapon is "weapons come back at the end of the round, and only from a martial strike."

You may also be interested in Deadly Agility, since it should work for thrown light weapons that count as melee weapons (so daggers and starknives, but not javelins or shuriken).

@Ash: Awesome to see another follower of Desna. I'm surprised to see someone focusing on starknives without picking levels in flying blade. The 3rd level deed of flying blades is kinda ridiculously good. If you don't pick up a starknife as your starting weapon you might have troubles finding one. We weren't able to buy any chakrams and starknives are arguably more rare. It might be double digit levels until you get one if you don't bring your own. What archtypes are you taking, if any? If you pick evangelist for your cleric it would work very well for our table.

@CT: Are people allowed to change minor things after being assigned tables?

1) Ricochet Toss is superior to Richochet Weapon in every way. The later is unecesarry if you already have the former. That said it might be hard to qualify for Richochet Toss. Might be easier to just craft a blinkback belt into your weapon with the crafting pool, you'll have enough for it at level 4.

Full caster ≠ Dedicated Caster

Seriously. And while we're at it, let's pour one out for the monstrosity* that is the Shaman spell list.

@Ash(or anyone, really):
I'm by no means a master, but take a look at the spreadsheet linked in my bio. It made the whole process a lot easier (for me, anyway.)

edit:
*OK, maybe I'm exaggerating a little. It's got Darkness and Sky Swim, so I'm fine, but it's certainly not amazing.

Thunder:

Ok, that makes sense to me so toss it will be (eventually)

Agility requires finesse, and I'm going a different way. I'm going to pick up channel smite + guided hand instead of finesse/agility.

Xanya: I'm unsure on archetypes for the cleric still - I like both Imagination and Exploration as domains and being able to spontaneously convert to healing seems useful. Evangelist gives inspire courage, which is great, but then it trades spontaneous cures for a bunch of mes effects which isn't bad but doesn't really line up with the conjuration/divination/evocation focus I took on the wizard side. None of it's spontaneous spells are bad, just fighting for feat space with other stuff and kinda out of character for her as she's built now. Lily is turning out to be more of a planner and less of a face as I build her.

Crest: Looking at your sheet now.

This is Johnnycat's submission for the Table 2 spot, overriding my old submission. Using my previous rolls netted me a whopping 1 additional stat point.

I'm open to suggestions/feedback/comments especially since I have like 6000 gold to spend on my signature item. I'll get a short blurb up when I have the time.

@Ash.. : Very table dependent of course... But our table already have plenty of people who can heal (everyone can heal with two channelers). If you were to end up at table 7 instead they could probably use the healing. The spontaneous spells are generally better than healing, but in order to reach optimum efficiency in their use you would have to focus more on them as you say. Would you be open to taking the archtype if you do end up at our table?

@Johnnycat93: Great to see Longirus :). Does that mean you are no longer submitting Shanalotte?

@Xanya - Probably, as I mentioned in my questions for the GM i'd be tuning spells to fit the table anyways. I'd just be bad at command/enthrall, no big loss.

I like to think Longirus is wearing an orange peel for a hat.

@Johnnycat93: Great to see Longirus :). Does that mean you are no longer submitting Shanalotte?

Yeah, there's always another triple-gestalt ultra game over the horizon where I can play a crit-fishing magus.

I like to think Longirus is wearing an orange peel for a hat.

It pays to look good

@Longirus: I'm curious why you chose to buy advanced charisma rather than advanced intelligence with your RP (or both)? Isn't your character relying on intelligence for DCs a lot? Also, did you know about the feat Master Performer (and the grandmaster version).

Advanced Intelligence requires having a +2 racial bonus to INT, Ghorans lack that. I was not aware of Master Performer, and I will consider investing in it as I level up.

No, you can buy it with whatever race you want. CT's rules are not the same as standard monster building.

Use your left over Race Points (RP) to purchase any of the following racial perks, in addition to alternate racial perks listed under your race entry. You must meet the prerequisites for entries listed below.

1. Ability perks can only be taken once for each ability. Note that some races already have Advanced <stat> as part of their race build. In these cases it is ok to take the special ability increases below for extra stats, but you may not take it more than once per ability as part of the bonus point pool.
2. If your race already has the ability (such as Hardy or Healthy) you cannot take it again (except in some cases such as increased natural armor). Note: Again some races already come with Advanced <stat> as part of their build, but it is ok to take this again as part of the pool points and they do stack, you just cannot select it more than once per ability as part of the bonus points. Hopefully this is clear.
3. Adding Advanced <stat> may allow you to qualify for other perks listed below that your race may not normally be able to qualify for. Good news for you!

It pays to look good

Truth.

Longirus and Crest would make a funny pair of party-mates. You're walk around with an always-on lantern, as I flop around in my own personal cloud of darkness. If I saw us coming, I'd run the other direction.

Ergh, ok. I'll look at moving some points after breakfast.

@Thunderbeard: I'll swap it with one of my progression feats, thanks.

@Longirus: You don't actually qualify for Glorious Heat as a 4th level feat, since it requires caster level 5...

@Crest: One of these days, you'll have to meet Teniel, the only other shadows-and-fear character across all the tables—but with a very different alignment and motivations. (I based a lot of his philosophy on the fact that in Javanese, the language of the island Wayang puppets come from, "shadow" and "imagination" are the same word)

Ok, here's my rough crunch. I'm still working on the unique item, that's this evening's work, but this should show everything else.

Ok, here's my rough crunch. I'm still working on the unique item, that's this evening's work, but this should show everything else.

I can't believe all of the warder archetypes stack, that baffles me. What is the actual result of all of those archetypes stacking, what's your plan for it vs a more standard warder?

I'd say be careful with your familiar—they die real easily in this campaign. Ricochet Throw can certainly be retrained later.

You may enjoy Jumper, Shadow Magic (depending on what you want to Spell Focus), or Gift of Tongues/Gifted Linguist (learning new languages will certainly be a thing, and invented party sign languages or read lips are always excellent)

I can't believe all of the warder archetypes stack, that baffles me. What is the actual result of all of those archetypes stacking, what's your plan for it vs a more standard warder?

The archetypes modify different things, so they stack. The benefits of well designed archetype/class chassis. Essentially I traded away heavy armor and shield focus to instead get to dual wield starknives and throw them in melee without provoking.

The biggest benefit vs a straight warder is that I won't need a spot on the front line to still provide a defensive zone. I can impose the usual -4 to hit allies from range thus still being in the midline. A normal warder is probably slightly better at this stuff because he can use a better weapon - starknives aren't greatswords/glaives/composite bows, but then a normal warder isn't a gestalted theurge with summoning and blasting spells.

If it helps, think of the warder side of my build as the 'what to do instead of shooting a crossbow' side of a cleric/wizard/<<Martial>> tristalt. It's a way to make throwing starknives vaguely competitive, provides some always on boosts, and gives a big hitpoint and moderate defense boost which is usually more fun for everyone than just pumping defenses. I'm pretty far behind the true martials at actually slaying things, and my defenses will let the GM hit me some unlike the monks.

Alternatives I considered for that section were Paladin and Monk, but decided I liked the flavor of being a naturally chaotic person trained by a half-celestial (Silver Crane) and ending up neutral while worshiping Desna more than either of the lawful options.

I can impose the usual -4 to hit allies from range thus still being in the midline.

You're going to want Precise Shot as soon as possible, then. (And Improved Precise Shot, or one of the teamwork feats that lets you shoot through allies, since otherwise enemies behind allies count as cover)

@Aury'tss: That's because they aren't. They all have different weapon and armor proficiencies, so trading the same apple multiple times for different fruits. Each has different amounts of armor, shield, and even weapon types available to them. But assuming all of those did work together:

You wind up with several levels where you don't really get anything, because you trade something that's level 8ish for more things at level 3, as well.

Ash.. wrote:

I can impose the usual -4 to hit allies from range thus still being in the midline.

You're going to want Precise Shot as soon as possible, then. (And Improved Precise Shot, or one of the teamwork feats that lets you shoot through allies, since otherwise enemies behind allies count as cover)

Yes, but I ran out of feats trying to cover the very basic caster and thrown stuff. I'll probably pick up the accuracy feats (Precise & Improved) in the next few levels, once I have a feel for how combat plays out. There's also the possibility that I'll end up on the table where I'd be swapping into evangelist, in which case I'd need to figure out at a minimum something like lingering song....

explanations

I was more baffled that they designed it that way, not how it was possible. After all, how often did they expect that a single character would need: A two handed weapon fighting archetype, a ranged attacker archetype, and a two-weapon wielding archetype?

~warder stuff~

Neat! I asked because sometime in the near (?) future I'm switching from this character (support and (pitiful, in my case) ranged damage) to a heavily melee character that has warder, and I'm at one of the tables that needs a person.

@Aury'tss: That's because they aren't. They all have different weapon and armor proficiencies, so trading the same apple multiple times for different fruits. But assuming all of those did work together:

That's an interesting point actually which I hadn't considered while pulling all of this together. (Hero lab, not a rules source but useful, didn't b#!@&)

It looks like you'd end up having essentially the same proficiencies as dervish defender. The only substitution appears to be hawkguard, the others are worded as modifications to weapons and armor proficiency which you still have to modify post substitution, and of course in tristalt this is largely irrelevant anyways since the plan is not to use any armor that imposes arcane spell failure.

Worst case the GM comes back and says "Avast you munchkin, trying to throw starknives" and I drop hawkguard/zweihander and just hit people with them instead. I'll wait on CT before worrying about it, it's not ground worth dying on.

That doesn't seem like a huge deal, I doubt it'll be a problem. A few levels in, almost everyone will have proficiency with pretty much everything except exotic weapons, anyway. A 1 level dip into a martial class would result into the same proficiency.

Neat! I asked because sometime in the near (?) future I'm switching from this character (support and (pitiful, in my case) ranged damage) to a heavily melee character that has warder, and I'm at one of the tables that needs a person.
I think pretty much every table wants a caster type person, so if you happen to wind up at mine that'd be pretty neat. Other than my soon to be retired character, I don't think we really have any way of ranged damage or support. And with two warders, it would be attack-of-opportunity city. I'm not sure armiger's marks from different people stack, but having party-wide -4 on incoming attacks is pretty neat, or putting it on most of the enemies in a battle.

Sadly my understanding from the various warder guides is that multiple marks don't stack, but you can definitely mark the guy over here and I can mark the guy near you and now they have to walk away from a warder to hit the person who has them marked which is generally a bad idea.

Yeah we can't do two marks to get -8, but I think the wording does allow two marks for -4, even for the warders themselves that wouldn't normally get a bonus. It says bonuses 'overlap'.
Probably won't be the most amazing idea most of the time, but maybe on a big single boss.

I think it'd be neat.

I used to be on the side of 'similar enough is similar enough'. I do make some allowances for 'trading better for worse', though. But in this example, at level 1:

Dervish Defender gives up Heavy Armor, Medium Armor and all shields for Two-Weapon Fighting and Int to AC.

Hawkguard gains Point-Blank Shot and loses Heavy Armor and most Shields.

Zweihand gives up shields to always have a Shield bonus, and not need a shield to use maneuvers that care about shields.

So, if you take Dervish Defender, then you're trading nothing for free Point-Blank Shot and a free Imaginary Shield, once you take the other two.

Hmm, I suppose that's true. I forgot that zweihander had heavy, and the extra abilities that are gained beyond just the proficiencies. Any pathfinder official classes that have a similar thing that might have a ruling?

Edit:
Though as a note, the Dervish Defender INT to AC doesn't apply if you're actually using that heavy armor proficiency.

I think I remember this argument taking place a few weeks (months? I dunno) ago in a somewhat formal manner on the boards. Not sure of the result, but if I had to guess, I'd say the answer was 'they don't stack'.

edit: this FAQ maybe?
edit2: it was months. my brain is not what it used to be.

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as the other alternate feature.

Armor Proficiencies are still Class Features.

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the warder.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Warders are proficient with all simple and martial melee weapons, with all armor, and with shields (including tower shields).

All three give up shields, so even if you treated each proficiency as a separate class feature (as I would!), you still can't really stack them.

Alright yeah that's pretty cut and dry, let's see if we can't salvage the concept without doing all three of the archetypes.

Zweihander seems extraneous to what you are trying to accomplish, and a bit opposite to your concept. I might be wrong though, I don't know how important it is to you.

Nothing stops you from throwing weapons as DD. But maybe go with Hawkguard if you do like the idea of throwing - Solar Wind maneuvers are very good. And even with lower AC you have fantastic HP because of warder. If you're already backline, you'd remain fairly safe - my group has frontline characters with less health than you. You can easily pick up TWF whenever, and if you're already backline, a lot of the DD abilities aren't super important anyway - melee seems like a backup.
Later on you could maybe dip a bit into magus Kensai to get a bit of that INT to AC in addition to your nice medium armor. If you were looking for a place for those extra RP, maybe natural armor to compensate?

Plus, if you do end up at my table, the backline would be pretty safe - I'll have anywhere from 15'-20' of reach, plus whatever threatened area bonuses from defensive focus. I can smack anyone who bothers you with an armiger's mark or knockback/trip and make you safer. I'm imagining other groups would have ways to crowd control as well.

I think a starknife throwing build is really cool, and I think it's still doable, so I wouldn't discount it too much.

DD is viable for throwing too, because Thrashing Dragon.

Oh neat then! That solves a lot of problems. Snap Shot feat tree can get you that threatened area (a bit late, but still), and if Thrashing Dragon is comparable to Solar Wind, then the only thing you're really losing is the ability to counter at range. It's a pretty cool ability, so you'd need to decide what's important.

Edit:
Also, I just realized that even if you choose hawkguard and don't get INT to AC, you still have a buckler - later on you'll good AC and abilities from enchantments. It seems to come down solely to whether you want better melee or ranged, really. Either is doable.

Follow your heart, believe in yourself, and anything is possible *rainbows*

yeah you cant stack those three archtypes.

Oh neat then! That solves a lot of problems. Snap Shot feat tree can get you that threatened area (a bit late, but still), and if Thrashing Dragon is comparable to Solar Wind, then the only thing you're really losing is the ability to counter at range.

Nope. Throwing is a ranged attack, made with a melee weapon. Snap Shot only works with bows, guns, javelins, slings, and shurikens—not star knives or other throwing weapons. (Starknife throwing does, however, work with Deadly Agility, a Magus's Spell Combat—but not Spellstrike—or a Swashbuckler's Precise Strike)

More completed submissions so I will go through them. Hang on folks :)

yeah you cant stack those three archtypes.

Sadness. I'll either settle on hawkguard and using a bow and just jettison starknives or try to make dervish work.

Bleh.

Throwing weapons, why are you so universally terrible. Pathfinder pls.

Throwing Weapons have actually gotten a lot of love recently. Also, I disagree on the 'Snap Shot' thing. I think you can use it with thrown weapons, but it's a pretty big feat investment.

Throwing Weapons have actually gotten a lot of love recently. Also, I disagree on the 'Snap Shot' thing. I think you can use it with thrown weapons, but it's a pretty big feat investment.

Link me stuff that is good and I'll look at it tomorrow night. For tonight I'm just going to head to bed.