Imo, the only evil poison is con poison. Otherwise, it's how you use it that matters. Paralyzing a big dumb giant who is wrecking a town by putting his dex to zero, so you can relocate him is -significantly better-than killing him. Heck, draining strength so he wrecks less of the town is even valid. Just... turning people to goo somehow feels evil to me :p. I can't honestly argue for con poison being evil,but I have a harder time arguing that it isn't.
My DM argued that it was evil because paladins aren't allowed to use it. Which is perhaps the silliest argument I've ever heard. :)
That is the silliest argument. To me, poison use for Paladins is more about dishonor and against the Paladin code than really about evil. Of course, if the poison causes the person to twist in pain before death, definitely could be considered evil especially if the person knows there is quick killing poison or poison that like you stated, just decapitates a creature.
would you allow Feinting Flurry to work with brawlers flurry?I have to ponder it. If I allow it, then I should be opening up anything that requires flurry of blows for brawlers flurry as well, so I need to consider the ramifications. BF lets you use close weapons etc so it makes it nicer for Sneak Attacks etc.
I think I will leave this as written, keeping the distinction between regular monk flurry and brawlers flurry.
Cavetoad, in your view is there anything inherently evil in poison use?
Just checking to see if there would be a problem reconciling my character's alignment/world-view and her abilities.
Another question: Any issue with my item being a composite longbow, or does it need to start as a regular longbow and have the strength modifier added to it later?
I don't see poison as inherently evil, although there is a range of things to consider. Some poison could cause undue suffereing, although PF poison is basically, just lose X to Y stat, without going into much detail. Much of it is intent. Poison a blade to gain the edge in combat? Not evil, although dishonorable. Poison a town's well? Probably evil, but lets say you are at war, and they are the enemy. Or its a town of murdering, raping orcs... the lines get greyer, but I think for the most part, the question here is poison in combat. Most people can use it without worry, although maybe LG paladins or healer types might balk at it.
The poison spell does not have the evil descriptor.
Ok I am keeping a list of submitted characters in my profile. Here is what I have so far. Let me know if I have missed anyone.
Tor Sasun----------------Gnoll---------Oracle/Skald/Warlord---------In Review
Karkoran-----------------Minotaur------Hunter/Alchemist/Warder------In Review
Goivan-------------------Gargoyle------Paladin/Bloodrager/UCRogue---In Review
Dalang Teniel------------Wayang--------Oracle/Bloodrager/Bard-------In Review
Greebins Higgo-----------Catfolk-------Oracle/Fighter/Bard----------In Review
Eleanor Sibyl------------Changeling----Barbarian/Sorcerer/Ninja-----In Review
Tayanella----------------Medusa--------Sorcerer/Ninja/FIghter-------In Review
Makoto Kasumi------------Kitsune-------Bard/Summoner/Paladin--------In Review
Tavros-------------------Minotaur------Monk/Magus/Rogue-------------In Review
Quassine Alator----------Mind Flayer---Monk/Stalker/Sorcerer--------Incomplete
Grubgullet---------------Ogre----------Brawler/Kineticist/Oracle----In Review
Lol,last change;
I am changing Stalker to Investigator to make my character more self-sufficient and in the direction of my character's theme.
Quassine Alator----------Mind Flayer---Monk/Investigator/Sorcerer--------Incomplete
Thanks!
Lol,last change;
I am changing Stalker to Investigator to make my character more self-sufficient and in the direction of my character's theme.
Quassine Alator----------Mind Flayer---Monk/Investigator/Sorcerer--------Incomplete
Thanks!
ok got it
This is Anon A Mouse's submission: Tavros the minotaur rogue/monk/magus.
Fellow Minotaur!
Mine is still in flux as well. It slipped my mind that I might be stepping on the desires of other players in doing so (Paladin Code). I wouldn't mind trying to fill Goodwin's Gap in trying to lead characters along the straight and narrow... but having to either leave or force another player to leave is just a really harsh line. I'll figure something out. The hardest part so far is the personal item. I'm leaning towards a polearm, but I don't want it to be just another weapon.
As for poisons, I once ran a vivisectionist as a healer. Poisons are actually really nice for healing people, as long as you control the dosages and have a DM on board. Localized anesthetics just makes sense. :)
Also... is Tavros linked to MSPaint Adventures at all?
Mine is still in flux as well. It slipped my mind that I might be stepping on the desires of other players in doing so (Paladin Code). I wouldn't mind trying to fill Goodwin's Gap in trying to lead characters along the straight and narrow... but having to either leave or force another player to leave is just a really harsh line. I'll figure something out. The hardest part so far is the personal item. I'm leaning towards a polearm, but I don't want it to be just another weapon.
As for poisons, I once ran a vivisectionist as a healer. Poisons are actually really nice for healing people, as long as you control the dosages and have a DM on board. Localized anesthetics just makes sense. :)
Also... is Tavros linked to MSPaint Adventures at all?
A lot depends on how other people play their characters. A paladin may consider poison dishonorable, among other things, like kicking sand in an opponents eyes, pantsing them, or pulling their hair, and would perhaps not engage in those activities themselves according to their personal code of honor. They may well frown and disapprove of others doing it, but their attempts to dissuade others, if any, can vary in intensity, based on fervor, deities, or personalities. Feel free to talk it out.
In response to poisoning with a paladin in the party, I agree with much of what CaveToad said. As one of the paladin applicants I can tell you that when fighting evil Goivan can be a very "ends justify the means" kind of guy as long as it doesn't harm other people. Hence his level of rogue and willingness to use stealth and tricks against evil.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that my code extended to others at all. You guys can do whatever you like. My problem (which makes it difficult to justify being a paladin) is the section of Paladin Vows that specifically state that I can't ally with evil... which splits the party if a character (or multiple) decides to go the route of evil. Courting evil is fine, and as a direct result, gives a lot of RP opportunities. But being evil is something a paladin literally can't even have -near- them.
As for tricks... I'm a Kitsune Paladin who can wear other people's faces. I feel that pretty much guarantees some deceptive fun. Just remember that poison use is explicitly called out in our codes (probably, anyway), and that some tricks will push towards a fall. So be careful!
If I stick with Paladin, I'll probably have a few questions regarding my skillsets and paladin code. :)
*Sigh* I'm coming up with crunch, but they aren't grabbing me and coming to life beyond the stats. (unlike my cardboard box for Toys to the Rescue.) I have too many games to add another one unless I'm absolutely in love with them.
I loved an adventure I ran where the party was facing a vampire dragon and lots of it's minions. They had to choose about accepting the help of an imprisoned marilith and her demonic forces. The paladin accepted in exchange for an oath from the marilith to not cause harm on the prime material plane for a century. She still lost her powers, but it was worth it to her.
Since there's so much separation between the classes, do war priest blessing and cleric domains have to match?
Especially if I'm not following a god, but an idea?
I've got a personal vendetta against good-aligned vivisectionists, but that's because the description specifically calls it out as an evil archetype, and the name literally means "someone who dissects people who are still alive," which makes it a lot crueler than a normal rogue's sneak attack.
I personally consider most poisons to be chaotic, but it probably depends on your character—drow poison shows up on a lot of my good characters, because it's actually a very humane way to handle enemies (unconsciousness, no pain or ability damage).
@Hotaru: Dishonesty/disguise are often against paladin codes. Are you writing a custom one, or picking an understanding god?
How do you feel about natural poisons then, thunderbeard?
My lizardfolk will have the Toxic trait, which is poison, so.
Just asking.
Also, DM, how long does the poison from toxic last on the weapon?
Haha, I like the big ugly ogre idea, swallowing small enemies. We will have to figure out what happens to them inside your gullet. The HP thing for them to cut out is clear, but since you dont have the swallow whole entry, its unclear how much damage they take per round in your stomach.** spoiler omitted **
I'm also intending to get the Ogre Crush feat as soon as I can swing 25 strength (only one point away!), so if you want, we could just say they take no damage from swallow whole itself, but they'll take constrict damage once I get it?
Could I purchase this race trait?
Stalker (1 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Perception and Stealth are always class skills for members of this race.
I know it wasn't on the list, but I feel it would be perfect for him.
I could use traits to get both skills, but I have 1 point left over, and nothing to spend it on.
Poisons only last for one strike on a weapon, unless you have a special ability that says otherwise. And I think the rules for war priest explicitly states they have to match domains if you have both. I know it works that way for bloodrager sorcerers (which sucks if you want any of the ones they haven't adapted for bloodragers).
Also... is Tavros linked to MSPaint Adventures at all?
Not really. I actually just used google translate to find out what was Greek for "bull." :x
Tavros will also probably be fine with a paladin in the group. He has repressed rage issues that might eventually manifest in being extra brutal in combat or perhaps vigilantism, depending on how things go, but I don't intend to take him on an evil route. Although I suppose if he becomes a vigilante that might cause tension.
I kinda meant how long will the poison last on the weapon before I use it. I think the vishkanyas and any one who gets it normally has a duration, usually an hour, before it wears off.
Yeah, I figured about the domains and stuff.
That's kinda frustrating, really. Well, I'm working on it.
Since there's so much separation between the classes, do war priest blessing and cleric domains have to match?
Especially if I'm not following a god, but an idea?
If you have a deity, your domains and blessings must be ones that the deity has, but they do not have to match each other.
If you don't have a deity, they don't have to match, but it would be nice if they were part of a theme, rather than the four best domain/blessings combinations you can come up with, although I'm pretty flexible if you can give me some RPish reason why.
My bad, I didn't read closely enough.
Oh, okay!
Yeah, it actually makes sense for the character I'm envisioning to have the different blessings.
Thinking Growth from Goliath Druid, Travel and Animal (fur) from cleric, and then the War and Trickery blessings from Warpriest.
Basically the perfect hunter.
Also, DM, how long does the poison from toxic last on the weapon?
Until you strike a creature or it gets removed due to accident ( 5% chance on application, or natural 1 on attack roll etc, see the poison rules).
Also, DM, how long does the poison from toxic last on the weapon?Until you strike a creature or it gets removed due to accident ( 5% chance on application, or natural 1 on attack roll etc, see the poison rules).
Ah, okay. That's cool.
I'm also intending to get the Ogre Crush feat as soon as I can swing 25 strength (only one point away!), so if you want, we could just say they take no damage from swallow whole itself, but they'll take constrict damage once I get it?Haha, I like the big ugly ogre idea, swallowing small enemies. We will have to figure out what happens to them inside your gullet. The HP thing for them to cut out is clear, but since you dont have the swallow whole entry, its unclear how much damage they take per round in your stomach.** spoiler omitted **
Cool feat! Although I think for the swallow part, I will keep it to a smaller amount of damage which would probably be acid.
The whole thing reminds me of the Anaconda movie, where the snake swallows Jon Voight.
Speaking of cool feats, I always thought the Awesome Blow feat was conceptually cool, but a little weak. I want to modify it so that the opponent flies an extra 5' for every 5 points the attacker supersedes the the victim's CMD. In the case of intervening obstacles, the victim and obstacle take 1d6 per 10' of unused distance.
I may consider an Improved Awesome Blow feat that can also knock over other people that the victim collides with as well, I need to ponder it.
This is Bane88's submission, Character sheet link and tentative background in profile.
Oh, okay!
Yeah, it actually makes sense for the character I'm envisioning to have the different blessings.
Thinking Growth from Goliath Druid, Travel and Animal (fur) from cleric, and then the War and Trickery blessings from Warpriest.Basically the perfect hunter.
Actually, my bad, I reread the Warpriest stuff again after Dave Herman's post, and I do see the part now where it says they must match. I need to ponder whether I want to compromise a little given the gestalt set up we have.
Sounds good!
I can do without it, no problems.
I kinda meant how long will the poison last on the weapon before I use it. I think the vishkanyas and any one who gets it normally has a duration, usually an hour, before it wears off.
Yeah, I figured about the domains and stuff.
That's kinda frustrating, really. Well, I'm working on it.
An hour seems reasonable, I mean eventually you will sheathe your weapon or set it down, or bump it, or it will just dry out. A limit keeps someone from poisoning a bunch of daggers days and weeks ahead of time and stocking them up.
Given the games bonker power parameters we already have...
But I don't see why you couldn't take a subdomain in case of overlapping powers (Travel Domain in particular - of course, being able to teleport that much more is awesome in itself)
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The rules for Eidolons' base Swallow Whole damage uses bite damage to calculate. It also typically requires a special ability, but seems about feat-level powerful. It also requires a creature able to grapple specifically with its bite, which requires the grab ability (the only archetype I know of that grants a bite-grab is for goblins), but there are other ways to get grab that might make sense as qualifiers.
Awesome Blow is far better than it looks—the fact that it provokes no AoO, and doesn't get penalties against four-legged creatures, makes it a better version of Improved Trip that can be taken by creatures with an Int far, far too low to qualify for Combat Expertise. It also allows full damage to be dealt with a maneuver check, meaning it completely bypasses AC, which is a big part of the reason it's a standard action.
Improved Awesome Blow is a Brawler class ability that might make an appropriate feat—it lets Awesome Blow be used as a regular attack instead of a standard action, which is really good. (There's already ways to knock people into each other using higher level rage powers or mythic champion abilities)
This is Bane88's submission, Character sheet link and tentative background in profile.
Sweet! The Branded curse is 3rd Party source though, and I am not using those, so see if another one works thematically.
Minotaurs and Oracles are popular.
I may heavily flavor things more Mediterranean - lots of Greek and Egyptian mythos themed races and characters.
I'm actually more strongly leaning towards warpriest at this point, which may change my deity choice from Shelyn. There's a time and place for paladins, and I'm not sure that stomping on other people's freedoms is something I'm personally comfortable with in this particular RP. The paladin code is balanced on a razor's edge, and losing a character because she has to choose between her family and her faith... while amazing for story... May not be worth it at all. I may not settle on warpriest in the end, but bard is definitely set in stone. :)
The rules for Eidolons' base Swallow Whole damage uses bite damage to calculate. It also typically requires a special ability, but seems about feat-level powerful. It also requires a creature able to grapple specifically with its bite, which requires the grab ability (the only archetype I know of that grants a bite-grab is for goblins), but there are other ways to get grab that might make sense as qualifiers.
Awesome Blow is far better than it looks—the fact that it provokes no AoO, and doesn't get penalties against four-legged creatures, makes it a better version of Improved Trip that can be taken by creatures with an Int far, far too low to qualify for Combat Expertise. It also allows full damage to be dealt with a maneuver check, meaning it completely bypasses AC, which is a big part of the reason it's a standard action.
Improved Awesome Blow is a Brawler class ability that might make an appropriate feat—it lets Awesome Blow be used as a regular attack instead of a standard action, which is really good. (There's already ways to knock people into each other using higher level rage powers or mythic champion abilities)
Good info.
Tor's highly unlikely to go specifically Evil (he may lean that way at some points, but he's Lawful before anything).
Oracle is likely popular because Oracles are cool as all get out. :D
What are your thoughts on using the mount feature for nonstandard mounts? Or choosing a mount that isn't really your-size friendly? If not at the start, is it possible outside of the monstrous mount feat (which explicitly grants magical beasts)?
Given the games bonker power parameters we already have...
But I don't see why you couldn't take a subdomain in case of overlapping powers (Travel Domain in particular - of course, being able to teleport that much more is awesome in itself)
Yeah, taking subdomains would be legit. That gives a little extra variety.
Likewise, before I scrap paladin entirely, does Shelyn's code of conduct for paladins completely overwrite the base version? If so, I believe it is still a character I can play without that fine line. There's still a fine line, but it shifts considerably. Likewise, Shelyn wears many faces (and was part of the inspiration for taking realistic likeness.)
I may heavily flavor things more Mediterranean - lots of Greek and Egyptian mythos themed races and characters.
Clutches Katana tightly*
So the most normal looking one ends up being the most out of place...
What are your thoughts on using the mount feature for nonstandard mounts? Or choosing a mount that isn't really your-size friendly? If not at the start, is it possible outside of the monstrous mount feat (which explicitly grants magical beasts)?
Short of using the Monstrous Mount feat, you cannot get those choices as part of the class features that would allow them.
Undersized Mount lets you take a mount of your size.
Stats:
= 17
= 13
= 12
= 13
= 15
= 14
= 12
I may heavily flavor things more Mediterranean - lots of Greek and Egyptian mythos themed races and characters.
Clutches Katana tightly*
So the most normal looking one ends up being the most out of place...
Hey now... I could pass for a gnome, with a bit of training in disguise. And you're one of three proposed characters with an Eastern theme—all of whom are on the humanoid side.
I may heavily flavor things more Mediterranean - lots of Greek and Egyptian mythos themed races and characters.
Clutches Katana tightly*
So the most normal looking one ends up being the most out of place...
No need to worry, I wouldn't do a total reflavor, and well I don't want to give anything else away about the world you have entered.
This is Bane88's submission, Character sheet link and tentative background in profile.Sweet! The Branded curse is 3rd Party source though, and I am not using those, so see if another one works thematically.
Minotaurs and Oracles are popular.
I may heavily flavor things more Mediterranean - lots of Greek and Egyptian mythos themed races and characters.
That's fair enough, I may switch to cleric from Oracle, I really don't like any of the Paizo curses thematically or mechanically for this character.
Changed Tor's spells around a little bit and gave his falcata a name (Order's Edge!). I will probably fiddle with little bits like this until specifically told to stop. D:
Likewise, before I scrap paladin entirely, does Shelyn's code of conduct for paladins completely overwrite the base version? If so, I believe it is still a character I can play without that fine line. There's still a fine line, but it shifts considerably. Likewise, Shelyn wears many faces (and was part of the inspiration for taking realistic likeness.)
Shelyn's code would more strongly define or ideally blend with the base code, if there is a direct conflict, it would overwrite ( otherwise why have it exist ). It definitely works well with a Bard and synergizes well with some of Goodwin's ideas.
One thing to remember for everyone is that Goodwin believed you could all be redeemed and could be examples that others could follow. He also understood that no one was perfect, and that the road to peace and harmony is winding and full of setbacks.
The goal of allowing some evil things eventually is to augment roleplaying and to allow some people to work with possible internal struggles their characters may still face. The idea isn't to sneak in as much cool evil stuff as possible by tweaking and whitewashing it. Keep in mind that your characters have been together for a while and understand each others flaws, vices and shortcomings. Like many families that have that 'black sheep' or someone who struggles with making good life choices, your family may be no different. Instead of creating a wall between those of good and not so good, it should foster RP opportunities for those with conviction to shepherd those stumbling in the darkness. Goodwin offered all of you a second chance, even if you really had no choice and were dragged, sometimes literally kicking and screaming, off to Goodwin's Camp for Dysfunctional Humanoids. What would Goodwin Do? If someone in the group animates a zombie, I won't come down hard on the paladin who doesn't immediately go into berserk anti-undead crusade mode.
One other trap is to avoid assigning 21st century morals and ethics to a fantasy world often roughly based, somewhat culturally at least, on medieval Europe. Violence and death are commonplace. Crimes can have severe punishment. In a place where monsters are real, and demons actually exist, things are amped up, and people will sometimes accept the lesser of two evils to keep the peace, and feel perfectly justified in doing it.
Before I get too rambly, I did want to reiterate that exploring morality and such concepts is part of the campaign hook, so feel free to take some chances, but have fun with it, keep the control rods in somewhat, and hopefully no one gets butt-hurt over it. I won't strip a paladin, (or anyone) of powers, if they are making a good faith effort to contribute to quality roleplay.
Changed Tor's spells around a little bit and gave his falcata a name (Order's Edge!). I will probably fiddle with little bits like this until specifically told to stop. D:
Go ahead, until you tell me you are final, I will just be reviewing for glaring errors. One thing that helps me a lot, is for people to 'do the math' in their character crunches, citing the sources for various bonuses. I know some of you have used Mythweaver sheets, which is ok. I'm not fond of them, but it will just make a little extra work for me. Also for those of you struggling with HeroLab and gestalt, please double-check the outputs to make sure everything works correctly. (I remember the old days of PCGen and how these sort of programs are not always bug free; of course the same can be said for human calculations )
I actually do mine up in a fillable PDF character sheet (which you can actually see here) and then transfer everything by hand into the form you see in my profile. I tend to catch most mistakes that way. :)