Leinathan/mdt's Kingmaker (Inactive)

Game Master leinathan

Also, if someone wants / needs a wand, Wyssal can make them.

Generating Gold during downtime is still a skill check at heart (unless I seriously misinterpreted anything!) so Munin most certainly helps Fhârn a lot (with his Cooperative Crafting). Mostly with fetching tools and making sure Fhârns other underlings (those unmentioned workers that come free with rooms) to stuff right. He could make himself free during those weeks where Fhârn runs the country (can't help with Profession [merchant] sadly), but you have to understand - he is a busy bird^^

But yeah, I assume most spy-work won't be in broad daylight anyways so you could probably borrow him a bit : )

That reminds me, if I calculated it right, Sanita's building should be done after the first 5 months. So, in month 6 she can produce gold in downtime. That gold will go toward Wilhelm's suggestion for a government office to have meetings. So, taking 10 to make math easier...

10 + 17 (Craft(Alchemy)) + 66 (bonus from personal buildings) = 94

So, 9.4 GP per day, or 65.8 GP per week (7 days)

No upkeep on the buildings since I'm there, and I don't have any staff at the moment.

Now we get into the event stuff, and that get's really complicated. The chance of an event is 20%, +5% per day until an event occurs. No good way to figure out an additive for that, so by hand with some fuzzy logic to find the percentage chance for a week :

Day 1 : 20%
Day 2 : 25%
Day 3 : 30%
Day 4 : 35%
Day 5 : 40%
Day 6 : 45%
Day 7 : 50%

So the range is 20-50%, or a 30% spread over the week. Now, eventually it maxes out at 95%, but we can handle that in a second. Let's looka t 1 week first. Every time an event occurs, it resets the chance back to 20%. I could go into a long drawn out thing trying to calculate the additive chance of resetting each day. But I think it's easier to just add 1/2 the range to 20%, and make it 35% per week.

Now, Week 2 :
Day 8 : 55%
Day 9 : 60%
Day 10: 65%
Day 11: 70%
Day 12: 75%
Day 13: 80%
Day 14: 85%

Range for week 2 is 20-85% (Note, can still reset to 20%). Again, could calculate out an additive chance, but easier to just halve the range, which is 32.5, or round up to 35%. So, each week adds 35%, max 95% for event. Which means I should have at least one event every other week. Seems about right.

So, for month 6, I work on kingdom stuff for 1 week, and work on personal stuff for 2 weeks, and 1 week for doing miscellaneous stuff that is some combination thereof or just goofing off. :)

Week 1 : 65.8 GP
Week 2 : 65.8 GP

Event Week 1: 1d100 ⇒ 6 And an event, <35%
Alchemy Event: 1d100 ⇒ 5

Discovery: The introduction of a new material makes your alchemical recipes more potent, leading to booming sales. For 1d6 days, the business gains a +10 bonus on its first check to generate capital each day.

Random: 1d6 ⇒ 4

So for four days on week 2, I get +10 on the GP check. That's 4 additional GP. So 69.8 GP for week two.

Event Week 1: 1d100 ⇒ 55 And no event, >35%, previous event reset event chance to 35%

Total earnings in month 6 : 135.6

Wilhelm? You get 135.6 GP from Sanita toward building your town hall at the end of Month 6. I forget how much you needed from each person.

By the way, I know this is longwinded, but several people are going to be doing similar downtime building/gathering so wanted to give an example. Lienathan, let me know if I messed anything up, other than the stuff that was reasonable fudging to cut down on paperwork and rolls.

I would think we only work 5 days a week, especially over long times.

@Sanita - Yeah you messed up : )

*cough*

Hmm I had an idea!

What if we used the downtime building/organization rules to construct a townhall/central office?

It would cost a bit less then 550gp per person - but I rounded it up.

On a more useful note, I don't think you need to be present to build your house - ie you are free to do other stuff during that time!

Edit: Yepp! Here is the quote form the downtime rules:

"You must be in the settlement at the start of the construction or recruitment period, but don't have to spend any of your downtime days to begin construction or recruitment. In effect, you have to be present only to give the order to begin."

I have to say I agree with Wyssal, five day workweek is probably what (I think) we should aim for ^^

Hmm, ok, in that case...

Downtime Gold per week = 10 + 17 = 27 = 2.7*5 = 13.5
3 Weeks (no need for goof off time if we're only work 5 of 7 days) : 40.5 per month

Months 1 - 5 : 202.5 gp

Building complete

9.4/day * 5 days = 47 gp/week

Event chances :

Weekly Chance of Event, week 1 : 30%
Weekly chance of Event, week 2 : 55%
Weekly Chance of Event, week 3 : 80%
Weekly Chance of Event, Week 4 : 95%

Rolls from above still indicate one event first week. Adding third week for month 6 :

Event Chance: 1d100 ⇒ 83 No event, >55%

202.5 + 47 + 51 + 47 = 347.5

Fharn, you get 347.5 gp for your central hall (Sorry I got who suggested it mixed up).

PCs can work 7 days a week, actually. (IF they want to. Realistically, your character would want to take some time off, at least occasionally.)

Teams work a 5 day week.

I'm not sure about buildings. A building such as an inn would not likely close for the weekend, though.

No worries really. Merely my bad habit of pointing out inconsequential errors ^^ (347.5/7060 raised.)

Speaking of downtime money - while some of us got ways to earn decent piles of gold during the downtime, not everyone does. And withdrawing BP from the treasury comes with annoying caveats IIRC - should we start by 'crowdfunding' your spy network first instead? Since it is probably cheaper and thus more easily reached ... : )

"The Craft and Profession skills allow you to attempt a skill check once per week, earning an amount of gp equal to 1/2 your check result. If you were to divide that amount by 7, you'd get your earnings per day. However, that assumes you work 7 days per week, and most people take 2 days off per week for rest and worship, so that's only 5 days of actual work per week. Dividing your check result by 2 and then by 5 is the same as dividing by 10, which is why the downtime system has you divide your check result by 10 to determine gp earned per day. You can work 7 days per week (if you really need the 2 extra days for earning capital), but even mighty adventurers need a day off now and then!"

What the downtime rules says about weekends. One could work for seven days a week instead of five, but according to the rules one would not earn more (since the Craft/Profession roll is weekly). <- Perhaps slightly iffy reading of the rules!

Regardless, I don't think anyone is looking to work themselves to death : )

edit: Ahem - I was going somewhere with this! Since a Craft/Profession roll is made weekly, it shouldn't really matter exactly when a building/team/room 'works'. They just exist in an abstract kind of way and poops out money at the end of each week : )

Yep, originally I was going with 7 day weeks, and working 3 weeks and a week off. 5 days per week with 2 days off is basically the same thing, but I figured if everyone was going to harp on 5 days on 2 days off, I wasn't going to argue all that much. :)

I wasn't really going to suggest taking out BP for GP, what I was going to suggest was figure out what 1000gp worth of spy teams would be, and then take out 1BP to represent recruiting those spies using kingdom resources.

In other words, just as we don't take BP and convert it to gold to build an inn using kingdom rules, we shouldn't really convert the BP into gold to buy teams. We should work out out what 1 BP would generate with regards to teams, and then spend a BP to generate that team.

This would work for army as well, and also police, etc. If Lienathan is ok with this approach, I can figure out what a BP worth of various groups would be, and post that.

So if you wanted a group that was mixed, you'd use fractional BP, but require a minimum of 1BP. For example, if 100 clerks was 1 BP (made up numbers for illustration) and 50 experts were 1 BP and 10 supervisors were 1BP, then for 1 BP you could get 50 clerks, 15 experts, and 2 supervisors.

Could probably work : )

1 BP = 2500-5000gp I believe, depending on occasion and kingdom size.

Armies already have a formula for their cost (and upkeep!) but smaller organizations could certainly be built - but I'm not sure which one that would use disembodied teams without attached buildings (ie the settlement buildings we already can produce). Roaming patrols perhaps?

And another thing - remember that 1 week each month goes to running things!

...3 weeks of work...

Spies wouldn't go with the buildings in the kingdom, as they'd need to be in Brevoy, Varnhold, Drevanville, River Kingdoms, etc. So they'd need to be basically not tied down to a building. Granted there'd be some in the kingdom as well.

I didn't realize the GP was that high. I think 1 BP could do our spy network for quite some time.

You're a little off on that rate Fharn.

Kingdom Size Price of 1 BP Withdrawal Rate*
01—25 1,000 gp 500 gp
26—50 2,000 gp 1,000 gp
51—100 3,000 gp 1,500 gp
101+ 4,000 gp 2,000 gp

Currently, 1 BP get's us 500 gp of gold, or costs 1,000gp to buy.

Perhaps one BP should be worth 750GP currently to buy non-building associated personnel?

But Capital is earned on a daily basis, and gp can be too. Doing it weekly is just a time saver when you are doing the same thing the whole time.

For example, Anastacia has a monastery. It can earn 5.9 gp/day. Meanwhile, Anastacia could, (if she had the money for it.) spend her time earning capital goods, labor or magic. If she had a crafting skill or profession, she could earn gp using those. She can also earn .5 gp/day doing unskilled labor.

Example:

Construction of monastery completed, day 1. Take 10. Monastery and Acolyte earn 5.9 + .4 = 6.3 gp/day. Not enough to pay for any capital, so Multiply by 5 for the week = 31.5 gp. keeping in mind that Anastacia also has to pay cost of living for the month. (Average: 10gp/month.) She will be able to start earning a small amount of capital the next week.

The next week the monastery and Acolyte earn 31.5 gp.
Anastacia spends a day earning Labor(capital). You can use diplomacy for this. So, taking 10 gives her a score of 20. She can raise 2 units of Labor, if she also spends 20 gp. Anastacia decides to do this, but her gold is depleted so that ends her efforts at gaining capital for the week.
In two weeks she has earned 63 gp. She spent 10 gp on living expenses and 20 gp on capital, so she has 33gp at the beginning of next week.

Anastacia is not going to work at unskilled labor, nor is she going to use her team of guards to earn. They are busy guarding her monastery and acolyte.

"Build points don't have a precise exchange rate to gold pieces because they don't represent exact amounts of specific resources. For example, you can't really equate the productivity of a blacksmith with that of a stable, as their goods are used for different things and aren't produced at the same rate, but both of them contribute to a kingdom's overall economy. In general, 1 BP is worth approximately 4,000 gp; use this value to get a sense of how costly various kingdom expenditures are. In practice, it is not a simple matter to convert one currency to the other, but there are certain ways for your PC to spend gp to increase the kingdom's BP or withdraw BP and turn them into gold for your character to spend."

Found the actual number - yey : )

edit: Yeah, I remembered different numbers : ) And linked the least useful part of the rules also ^^

edit2: Notice that that table is only valid if you are starting from scratch Sanita. One can only take advantage of the "better" rates while not having a sponsor, which we have. We have to use the "worse" rates of 4000/2000gp:1BP, according to the rules : )

My math is a bit off. An Acolyte earns 1.4/day, not .4. Actually, quite a bit off :(

Bunch of Downtime quirks that might be good if we dealt with!

Whether a unit generates its listed capital depends on your intentions for the building or organization, and should follow common sense. For example, if you construct a building with a Bar, Common Room, and Kitchen, you might want to use it as a tavern or a headquarters for your adventuring party. If it's a tavern, it's open to the public and generates capital. Otherwise, it's a private building and doesn't generate capital because it's used by only you and your friends. If you start your own cult with Acolytes and Priests, you might decide they sell healing and generate income. If your thieves' guild has Acolytes, you might decide they only heal members of your guild, and therefore don't generate income.

If you intend for your building or organization to generate capital, you must explain to the GM how it does so. You can change the purpose of your building or organization (for example, renovating an old military barracks into an inn or turning your greedy cult into a generous one) and in doing so change the capital it generates. You should choose one idea and stick to it, however, as a business that's open to the public on an irregular basis makes less money, as does a business that frequently changes its purpose. The GM might reduce the capital buildings generate in such situations.

This is probably worth a look too. Which part of the ones house actually generate income? Do we want people sinking gold into what essentially is vanity projects (private homes that doesn't provide anything really, except - you know, privacy and comfort) or do we want all the rooms to provide income ?

@Ana/Organization Income - The rules suggest (annoyingly) that all the earnings of one Organization, ie multiple rooms and teams, tally their earning modifiers and roll once. This means, among other things, that two Common rooms earn more if they are in different buildings then together (1d20+7 * 2 vs 1d20 +14).

This means, that sadly, your first calculation was actually closer to the rules.

How do we want to deal with this ?

I am here to offer input!

As far as I understood it, one needed to input 4,000gp to put one BP into the treasury, and one gained 2,000gp from taking a BP out of the treasury. However, I don't think that we can spend BP on downtime-rule things, as those are personal expenses. We can withdraw it, with the associated automatic Unrest, but I'd rather not do that.

Also, I'd rather not use my house for earnings - I might calculate what I get from my Sages, Classroom, Acolyte, and Apprentice at some point, but I don't want to deal with everything I get.

I'd like to get that Consumption down to 0, please, IC. It's just a lot of wasted BP every month.

Ok, so, I can't find anything in the rules for spy force (or police or guards for that matter, only military, and even that's pretty abstract). I think it's a bit unfair to expect the spymaster (whether it's me or masamura or someone else) to buy the entire spy force out of pocket.

If the kingdom can't buy them, then we're going to have to spread the pain out. I suggest that everyone work up some downtime method of raising coin, and we just agree that coin doesn't go toward character wealth (at least for now) and instead it goes toward common usage, like Fharn's meeting hall/government building, Spy networks, etc.

If everyone does that, we can continue to grow things during down time. Sanita's house, for example, is also an Alchemy lab, and can support up to 3 alchemists. Sanita can take a few gold from what she gave Fharn and add a few alchemists to keep it going even when she isn't there to run it.

What does everyone think?

I suck at math and subsequently all of this downtime stuff, but if Dante can raise money for joint use and military than I will do that as much as I'm able.

@Sanita - the cost of rooms are assumed to include workers capable of having them generate the listed profit.

@Crowdfunding - While I do like the idea, saying that people have to contribute is a bit much. It should come willingly - and in the amounts people feel they can contribute. Some will get saddled with rather expensive upkeeps (poor Wil!) and some have their own stuff to manage.

I'll do up the math for everyone's downtime earnings during the year - we can then decide, based on how much everyone has, how much each person should add to each organization.

Also, I'm willing to say that each person that has a leadership role simply has employees that pertain to that leadership role. None of them are exemplary, and they're only what's necessary, but each person should have a few employees. (for example, the Warden could have a few groups of rangers and a ravenmaster for patrol and message-delivering.

Leinathan to the rescue!

Downtime Earnings, 1 year, everybody:

Sanita - Highest skill (Craft (alchemy)), bonus +17
Taking 10 - result of 27, 13.5 gold/week. 540 gold/year

120gp spent on living expenses, total of 420 gold earned during the year.

Dante - Highest skill (Profession (soldier)), bonus +9
Taking 10 - result of 19, 9.5 gold/week. 380 gold/year

120gp spent on living expenses, total of 260 gold earned during the year.

Dareon - Highest skill (Knowledge (arcana)), bonus +17
Taking 10 - result of 27, 13.5 gold/week. 540 gold/year

120gp spent on living expenses, total of 420 gold earned during the year.

Vors - Highest skill (Stealth), bonus +12
Taking 10 - result of 22, 11 gold/week. 440 gold/year

With living expenses, total of 320 gold earned during the year.

Wyssal - Highest skill (Perform (oratory)), bonus +10
Taking 10 - result of 20, 10 gold/week. 400 gold/year.

With living expenses, total of 280 gold earned during the year.

Rowan - Highest skill (Perception), bonus +20
Taking 10 - result of 30, 15 gold/week. 600 gold/year.

With living expenses, total of 480 gold earned during the year.

Roan - Highest skill (Sense Motive), bonus +15
Taking 10 - result of 25, 12.5 gold/week. 644 gold/year.

With living expenses, total of 524 gold earned during the year.

Shimmerscale - Highest skill (Diplomacy), bonus +24
Taking 10 - result of 34, 17 gold/week. 680 gold/year.

With living expenses, total of 560 gold earned during the year.

Fharn - Highest skill (Craft (weapons)), bonus +11
Taking 10 - result of 21, 10.5 gold/week. 420 gold/year.

With living expenses, total of 300 gold earned during the year.

Wilhelm - Highest skill (Diplomacy), bonus +12
Taking 10 - result of 22, 11 gold/week. 440 gold/year.

1,200gp in living expenses paid for a wealthy lifestyle, total of negative 760 gold earned during the year.

Lanya - Highest skill (Bluff), bonus +19
Taking 10 - result of 29, 14.5 gold/week. 580 gold/year

After living expenses, total of 460 gold earned during the year.

Anastacia - Highest skill (Sense Motive), bonus +14
Taking 10 - result of 24, 12 gold/week. 480 gold/year

After living expenses, total of 360 gold earned during the year.

------

Okay! I used an assumption of 40 weeks for everybody except for Roan. This is because we have to spend a week every month, or 12 weeks, running the kingdom. Let me know if I did anything wrong, but I don't think I did.

I think, obviously the biggest problem here is that Wilhelm owes more than 700 gold after the money he makes from the downtime - we ought to help pay for that, maybe.

Lienathan? Sanita has a +66 bonus from alchemy labs and buildings she paid out of pocket for on her GP check. It takes about 5 months for all of it to be complete (I didn't bother figuring out component by component, wasn't worth the headache), but those buildings we paid for do add to the GP check for earning gp. So the last 7 months of the year she has an average check of 10 + 17 + 66 = 94, or 9.4 gp per day. That's 47 GP per week, 141 gp per month, 987 gp for the last 7 months. For the first 5 months, it's 2.7 per day, 13.5 per week, 40.5 per month, for 5 months is 202.5 gp. So total for the year should be 1189.5. Subtract 120 for upkeep on the house, that should be 1069.5.

Now, I'm fine with splitting it 3 ways, 1/3rd toward Wilhelm (until he can get off his lazy butt and earn a living like an honest man), 1/3rd toward Fharn's town hall, and 1/3rd toward spies.

Wyssal don't have government responsibilities yet ;)

Right. So she earns another 120 gold, for a total of 400. Excuse me.

No problem, thanks for the math...
I am working in setting his political organization running.

@ Fhârn.

Earnings: This entry indicates what bonuses the room or team gives to its building's or organization's checks made to generate capital. Buildings and organizations act like characters in that they can attempt a check each day to earn capital performing skilled work (without costing you any downtime). You must pay for capital earned in this way as normal.

This part of the rules outright says that organizations can make daily checks. Bolding added by me...

Not to be argumentative, but the rules seem to clearly state that you can have different teams and rooms working on different projects.

If the room or team's Earnings entry says "capital" and a number, it can contribute a bonus on the building's or organization's skilled work check for any type of capital (gp, Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic). If the Earnings entry lists specific types of capital, it can contribute a bonus on its building's or organization's skilled work checks only for capital of those types. You can apply each room's or team's bonus to any one listed type or capital each day or divide it among multiple listed types of capital. For example, an Alchemy Lab can generate only gp, Goods, or Magic, and not Influence or Labor. One day you could use all +10 of its bonus on the building's capital check to generate gp, on the next day you could use +5 on a check for generating gp and +5 on a check for generating Goods, and so on.

I'm completely OK with just using leinathan's numbers for the year, though. Using the downtime rules to grow an organization seems like a daunting task. I think I'd rather handwave this lost year and get back to the game.

At any rate, you are right, that the monastery would probably not generate its full listed number. For instance it has a bath, but it is not a public bath and so would not generate income. I'd have to look at its rooms individually, to figure out which would generate income.

My reading is that the rooms generate bonuses no matter what.

This makes sense if you stop and think about it. That bath may not be a public bath, but you using it means you are keeping yourself clean, which makes it less likely you'll get sick. Which means you can work better. Basically, it's a hygiene thing. Same with the bedroom, they give you bonuses not because you necessarily have a body in it, it's because you are (A) saving rent costs and (B) getting a better nights sleep than sleeping on a floor or in an alley, thus you are better able to work (more efficient, higher productivity, etc).

It's the same reason someone who has a home (even if they are paying a mortgage) usually has more disposable income than someone living out of, say, a hotel room. As someone who lives on the road, I can tell you that I spend a lot of money while on the road. Hotel room, eating out, laundry, tehse are all expenses you don't have if you own a home with a bedroom, kitchen, and laundry. Basically the rooms are adding to your checks acting as a 'refund' on your lifestyle costs.

Obviously if you have a 10 bedroom inn, you are instead getting the lost income that those people staying in your rooms are losing by not having a home.

Anyway, that's how I read the downtime rules. Same logic with the stable I have for my horse, I don't have to pay Oleg to store my horse anymore, so my cost for that is cheaper (and thus the bonus back).

Can Wyssal use her Lore Master Bard Class ability to take 20 in her gaining capital check?

I think I want to wait for mdt's judgment on this. My initial answer would be no, because that opens up a slippery slope when it comes to bonuses.

Why can't I get someone to aid another me, while I cast whispering lore and research in a library? That would get me +9 to my roll and it can happen every day.

@ Fhârn.

Correct stuff

Yeah, you are right : ) What I was getting at, however is that if one has both a team and a room - working on the same place (same organization), generating the same sort of earnings (gold), they typically add their modifiers together and roll once. (this means one earns slightly less gold, since one only gets the roll worth of money once : ) ).

@Downtime earnings - Fhârn also has a house - which includes a forge and such. Thus he will be 'Running a business' rather then using 'skilled work' after a certain number of weeks. I'll get back to this in a moment of two.

@Downtime earnings bonuses - This is interesting. There are a number of spells that that provide skill bonuses that might actually be suitable for this (Crafter's Fortune among others). And you could certainly get someone to Aid Another you leinathan - but that person would probably earn more making the check himself anyhow : )

Digging up Kertuffle's rules for downtime (which may not be relevant but they provide something of a solution if you wish to adopt them) yields the following:

My cost of living the first 5 months would be 100 gp per turn as we only have houses available. After those 5 months, we build a noble villa, and my cost of living goes up to 1000 gp per turn. Over the first 5 months, I also accrue 6*5 = 30 Influence. Over the last 7 months, I accrue 60*7 = 420 Influence. This converts into 90 Magic which sells for 50 gp each. I can sell that for 4500 gp on the open market. So I'm actually short:

5*100 + 7*1000 - 480gp (I can get a static +2 bonus from my Ioun stone) - 4500 gp = 2520 gp

Needless to say, I'm not terribly thrilled by this. :) In order for the magic/influence thing to break even, you would need to have 100 influence per turn for someone living in an extravagant lifestyle to break even on that alone. With my current skill set, I can manage 40 gp a month with diplomacy. Without having quite a bit of capitol invested already, I'm going to have a hard time affording that cost. Any thoughts?

@Wil - I'm thinking we could perhaps assume that the extravagant lifestyle of our benevolent overlord (you) were paid for when the kingdom coughed up all those BP for the Noble Villa : )

@Ruling the kingdom - Kertuffle had people earn a bit of gold using the skill linked to their position while ruling. Do we want to continue using this? It might pad the income a bit for some ... : )

Edit: @Wil - Influence sells for 15 gp a piece: 450*15=6750. But I'm not sure we want to open the can of worms where the paladin sells his influence for gold ...

Ok, new GMs, always going to be things to hammer out. :)

Let's take things one at a time. I am going to post quotes from the earnings bit so we all have common stuff to comment on.

Earnings: This entry indicates what bonuses the room or team gives to its building's or organization's checks made to generate capital. Buildings and organizations act like characters in that they can attempt a check each day to earn capital performing skilled work (without costing you any downtime). You must pay for capital earned in this way as normal.

So, from this bit of the rules, the way I read it, if you have paid for a building (which is one or more rooms) or an organization (which is one or more groups), then each and every building and/or organization can attempt a check every day, and you do not have to be involved. However, if you're gone too long, it all goes to pot as employees leave and take stuff with them.

If the room or team's Earnings entry says "capital" and a number, it can contribute a bonus on the building's or organization's skilled work check for any type of capital (gp, Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic). If the Earnings entry lists specific types of capital, it can contribute a bonus on its building's or organization's skilled work checks only for capital of those types. You can apply each room's or team's bonus to any one listed type or capital each day or divide it among multiple listed types of capital. For example, an Alchemy Lab can generate only gp, Goods, or Magic, and not Influence or Labor. One day you could use all +10 of its bonus on the building's capital check to generate gp, on the next day you could use +5 on a check for generating gp and +5 on a check for generating Goods, and so on.

So, my reading on this is that you can split your bonuses however you want. Which means if you want to earn GP, you put everything into GP. If on the other hand, you want to earn capital (to make it cheaper to expand or build a new building/organization) or capital and GP, you can make checks for each. So for example, if I want to earn Goods and Influence, then I can split my bonuses between Goods and Influence, and make a check for both. If I have rooms that don't contribute to either, but do contribute toward GP, I could make a 3rd check and add those bonuses to it.

Most of the time, it's simplest and quickest to just apply all the gp bonuses from all the rooms in each of your buildings and take 10 on the roll. Other times, you might want to generate other types of capital to construct new rooms, recruit new teams, and make upgrades.

If you have multiple buildings or organizations in a settlement and they can generate the same kind of capital, you don't have to roll for them separately—you may add all their capital modifiers together and attempt one check for that kind of capital. If you spend a downtime day earning capital on your own, you may add your building and organization bonuses to your roll instead of rolling separately for yourself and each of your businesses or organizations.

This is basically saying you can trade efficiency for ease of use in the rules. So rather than having to decide what rooms contribute to what, you can just total up all your bonuses for all buildings and organizations you have, split them up how you want, and then make your checks. Honestly, that get's really complicated fast. For ease of use, I'd suggest figuring out what you can do maximum for any one thing in a day (Like, GP or Goods/GP or Magic/GP, etc). That will make it easier.

For a room, the Earnings amount already subtracts the cost of having unskilled employees to do the basic work for you. For example, the Earnings listed for having a Bar already account for the wages of a bartender and servers. For a team, the Earnings amount assumes they are working at a building you own. If you don't provide a building for the team to work in or from, halve the Earnings for that team.

So, what this means to me is, the Alchemy Lab that Sanita built is assumed to have staff that come in and work with her when she's crafting. And those employees are already paid out of what the room can generate. So we don't have to keep track of salaries. Same with teams we recruit.

The description section of the unit stat block might list other benefits unrelated to the downtime system.

For example, Sanita's Alchemy lab gives her a +2 alchemy bonus (Which was left out of the calculations above for downtime GP earnings, which I'll need to redo).

Example: The Inn example in the sidebar on page 92 has a Bar, a Common Room, a Kitchen, a Lodging, and a Stall. The Bar gives gp or Influence +10; the Common Room gives gp or Influence +7; the Kitchen gives gp or Goods +4; the Lodging gives gp +12; and the Stall gives gp, Goods, or Labor +8. All of those rooms can earn gp, so if you want to earn gp, just add all the room bonuses together (total +41) and make a skilled work check for the Inn to see how much gp you earn (see page 78). If you wanted to use the Bar's bonus to contribute to generating Influence and use the rest of the rooms' bonuses on gp, you'd attempt one skilled work check for Influence with a +10 modifier (the Bar's bonus) and another skilled work check for gp with a +31 modifier (the total bonuses from the Common Room, Lodging, and Stall).

Good example. :)

Ok, now, as to class abilities affecting downtime cash... My first thought is they should. However, that has some issues. Alchemists for example craft at double rate, which means they should end up doubling their downtime generation using craft alchemy. But I think that's a bit OP. On the other hand, I don't really like saying people can't use their class abilities either. I need to think on it.

Also, as far as Kertuffle's house rules go... I think I'd rather revert to core rules, it's easier to remember taking over than it is to remember someone else's house rules.

Got it, waiting for the DM ruling.

Whew, okay, sorry for the delays people! I got behind on things with this game during my trip, and it took a bit of effort to catch back up.

As for me personally, here's what I want to do with downtimes:

Basically, I want Roan to get himself a house constructed, a headquarters for his own spy network that he's making, and teams to make up his network/personal lackeys just because. Here's what Roan's planning to get built/hired.

For simplicity's sake, I'll just see it all get hired/built out of pocket myself. The teams should be able to be hired by, 22 days. That number is discounting the Lackeys, as they won't be hired until Roan's house is nearing completion, and won't be used for any money generation or anything, just there for flavor.

The buildings I split into two different build times if that's acceptable, one for Roan's house, and one for the spy network building, but they do become connected by an escape route in the end, so it could be construed as one building depending on how ya'll GMs want to handle it. The house takes 122 Days to complete, the headquarters 192 days to complete. So in total they take 314 days, or 10.5 months effectively, separate, the house will take about 4 months, and the headquarters about 6.5 months respectively.

So, on that note, a description of how Roan plan's to recruit/utilize his network.

All told, I do believe that should do it for me for the year honestly, unless things change. When the teams start throwing their money contribution into my rolls, they'll add a +30, and the headquarters will add an additional +69 bonus. With their coming in at week 3 and week 26 respectively, I calculated Roan's net gain as 606GP all told. So assuming everything's kosher on that and my math's right, that's what I'm going with. Oh, and as for crowdfunding Sanita's team, I'm okay with that (easier for me to track the money flow!) and I feel I could kick at least 100 GP towards that goal. If everyone pitches in similarly, I think that should cover it fairly well.

You realize of course that you're basically starting a spy war behind the scenes in the kingdom. Not only that, but you're placing any spies Sanita has at great risk. By seeking them out and keeping tabs on them, you're creating trails for other people's spy network to follow. Not to mention the fact that the officially sanctioned spy network will now have to split it's attention between spying on enemies and rooting out the non-sanctioned spy network.

Sanita will not be happy about that, and is more than likely going to discretely take care of Roan's spies. She'll complain to Wilhelm once. And only once. After that she'll take care of it herself discretely.

I strongly advise against having two sets of spies, especially one whose only job is to kill the other half of the kingdom's spies. But it's up to you. Leinathan will have to take over that bit of the game, obviously.

EDIT : This means, unfortunately, that Sanita cannot contribute to the common government building nor Wilhelm's palacial upkeep. She will need to dedicate all the coin she makes over the year toward building up spies, and now an expanded counterspy network. Plus additional ties to the Militia for dealing with rogue networks.

If it makes it any better, for the most part Roan will work with Sanita hand in glove if she lets him, and honestly isn't going to take action against her agents hardly ever. But he wasn't given any denial of this part of his plan, and therefore plans to continue it. Really, he's more wanting to run internal affairs rather than an entirely rival faction. Though intent may be less than what's needed.

The problem is, for his plan to work, he has to be involved from the ground up and know everything about the spy network. Which... defeats the purpose of compartmentalization.

Let's take James Bond for example. James Bond couldn't function if MI6 had some other operation, call it MI9, that spied on MI6. MI9 agents would be blowing his cover all the time by watching him. Plus, the first time things didn't work out right, they'd go gunning for him. Stack onto that the fact that now Roan is basically doing what Wilhelm was having issues with in the first place, acting as judge jury and executioner, and I expect a recipe for disaster.

If Roan wants to work in the spy organization, that's completely different. But that's not what has been described. What's been described is more of a secret network that is always watching the spies to kill them if they do anything they don't like.

And that's not going to work, nobody is going to be loyal under such a regime, and we need people who are loyal. You can't demand loyalty via threat of death. It doesn't work in the long run and you basically risk raising up your own insurgency.

Now, if Roan just wants to be involved in the spy network, I have no problem working something out in character about it. It would be nice to have some non-NPCs involved. I just don't think Sanita is going to take having a counter-spy spy agency trying to dig out her every move is all. :)

I am also not sure is a good idea that a government official sections / employs the criminal element of the settlements, if that government pretends to have some kind of face towards the people.
Wyssal (and her newspaper) would love a government scandal like that ("Rulers of the city behind crime syndicate") but I don't think we want that.

I would actually disagree on your main point, in so much as that Roan is mostly going to be following trends and patterns rather than physical people.

To take your example, rather than MI9 actively following MI6's agents at all times, it'd be more in line with follow up investigations and keeping loose tabs on MI9. If say, James Bond was under the general rule that he should keep the death and mayhem to a minimum, and every mission he comes back from has three times the body count of everyone else at the end of it, that doesn't require someone actively looking over his shoulder at all times to get an idea of what happens in every Bond movie. Roan's level of observation is more going to be along the lines of.

10/30: Agent C left Oleg's in the morning, headed north.
10/31: Missing person's report filed for John Doe, lived in the woods north of Oleg's.
11/01: Agent C return to Oleg's midafternoon.
11/03: John Doe was found alive, having returned home personally, would not specify where he was, feigning amnesia due to a head injury. Agent C does not warrant further investigation at this time.

Not

10:13 AM 10/30: Agent C had waffles for breakfast.
10:35 AM 10/30: Agent C left Oleg's along the north road.
10:42 AM 10/30: Agent C diverged from main road, heading west.
etc.

The second thing I want to emphasize is that Roan's not going to be handing every agent a weapon and telling them to "use their own discretion." At worst, it'd fall to Roan himself, but more than likely, he'd still consult with either Bej or Wilhelm to see this agent brought down on criminal charges that don't include spying. And in this first year, I'm expecting Roan to take action against 1 of Sanita's agents as an absolute maximum, unless Sanita's broken character and is lying about not using torture and is getting enough people offed to make Freddy Kruger proud.

Roan offered this service in part to give Sanita breathing room by giving the council assurances that she's being kept in check, so she can actually do her job. As he stated when initially proposing this, in general he agrees with Sanita that spy work is messy by nature and trying to maintain a Paladin's code while doing it completely hamstrings her ability to get her job done. He offered to watch her, and intends to do it, but mostly so that she can do her job in peace, and without the other council members hounding her, not to be in direct conflict with her.

EDIT: But worse case scenario, I'm content with just slotting in Roan into the network and just having my financing of an agency just be THE spy network. Takes care of the funding issue at any rate.

Well some of us would use certain types of people for information. Lanya would also work behind the screens from time to time, but she has to present a face towards other kingdoms so mostly she'll stay out in the open.

I'm guessing from time to time, Sanita's contacts might also work for me/report back to Sanita with some of my actions.

In that case I think Sanita and Roan just need to work things out in character then, to avoid PvP possibilities. :)

Indeed, I hope for raised hackles initially, but I definitely want to avoid a full blown PvP war. :)

It's funny, because I've been planning on having a network of informants for quite some time. Just eyes and ears, nothing overt.

So that would make three separate spy rings working in our kingdom.

;)

I thought it would be fun to run the downtime rules for a bit. All I could do is generate bad events though. When the monster attacks, it's time to pick up your toys and go home.

Roan...

Sanita is never going to accept you as a watchdog. She's either in charge of the espionage, or she's not. If you're her watch dog, then she'll walk away from the job. This is not a good tactic. I don't forsee this ending well. And to my recollection, Wilhelm veto'd Roan being a watchdog, which means Roan is going behind his back. And Sanita did have an informant in the meeting, so she knows what was said after she left.

Basically Roan and Sanita are too much alike. :) I have another idea to resolve things, let me try this.