I am going to give it another hour or three and see if anyone else posts before making my long winded you should vote for me speech. Hopefully I can politic up some support this time, I feel bad that everyone and their mother keeps voting for Wilhelm and I keep winning by simple dint of me being built to be that guy who does politics all day every day.
** spoiler omitted **
I am going to give it another hour or three and see if anyone else posts before making my long winded you should vote for me speech. Hopefully I can politic up some support this time, I feel bad that everyone and their mother keeps voting for Wilhelm and I keep winning by simple dint of me being built to be that guy who does politics all day every day.
:) Well its your own fault. Felix is a monster at diplomacy. I live in Arkansas and I met Bill Clinton once while he was governor. The man has an ability to while he's talking make you feel like you're his most important voter and best friend. It was uncanny. So that is how I envisage Felix.
I'm going to tally votes at the end of today (Sunday). Currently I don't have Rowan, Bej, Vors, Masamura have yet to PM me, although I think from their posts their votes would be
Rowan - Wilhelm
Bej - ?
Vors - Himself?
Masamura - ?
Have added a 'How the Patron's View the Player Characters' Link at the top of the page. Note that the Personal Competence score is not any real measure of the PC's personal competence, but rather the opinion of the Patrons as the PC's ability to lead a nation. Patron Support is a measure of how well they feel the character's goals mesh with their own. Popular Support is how many actual votes were recieved from the other players.
Argh, my post lanya long winded speech of doom got swallowed by paizo. They are trying to rig the vote. I demand a recount :P
@Felix heh :P
@Kertuffle - I don't think you need to include Sanita on that list. From what I gathered it doesn't seem that she will be playing with us anymore.
Spoiler Alert
When you finally get back to Oleg's the party is going to find a representative from your patrons along with some bankers. We'll roleplay that out when the time comes, but I'd like to start to hash out the Out of Character Stuff here and now in the discussion thread to save time.
1}The representative is officially appointed to act as Ambassador for Brevoy to your newly minted kingdom. He is also the direct representative of the Restov Patrons and as such has legal authority for choosing who he thinks will best serve their interests as leader of the kingdom. Conflict of Interest? You bet! However he also comes bearing 50 Build Points to start your kingdom.
2) Whoever is chosen in the current vote will eventually be the one he decides will rule over the new nation.
3) The initial form of government under the rules must be Oligarchy (Corruption+1, Law-1, Lore-1, Society +1). You can give the appearance of any other form of government you wish, but at its heart, at least until you can breakaway from Brevoy, it is an Oligarchy. Since I am forcing this on you, when you do break away there will be no in game effects of your suddenly becoming the government of your choice.
4} Due to the fractious politics in Brevoy, Each royal house is going to be treated as a seperate kingdom in terms of treaties, alliances and such. In place of House Rogarvia (which has mysteriously vanished) you have your Patrons in Restov. PC Nobles will get a +5 circumstance bonus for dealing with their own house, a +2 circumstance bonus for dealing with allied houses but a -2 penelty for dealing with opposed houses. Your Patrons are considered friendly, the other houses start at unfriendly as they consider you puppets of Restov.
5) The kingdom will start with an Embassy Agreement with Restov, along with an unbalanced Treaty with Restov (even unbalanced, this will add a whopping +8 to your Economy). No actual Alliance relationship will be considered, Restov has no wish to get involved with the various wars that sweep the River Kingdom area, that was a primary reason for starting the kingdom to begin with.
6) Eventually you will wish to breakaway from Brevoy. To do this you must declare Independence as an edict. At the current time this will require making 4 of 6 Diplomacy or Intimidate checks versus a DC of
10+25(Restov's special size modifier)+0(Your special size modifier)-4(Relationship)-5(Attitude)+10(Independence)+52(What they feel they have invested)=88. This will be further modified by alignment, fame and infamy. You can also reduce the DC by 1 for every BP you spend in bribes.
Ok,
I've been thinking about this all weekend, and I don't want to be a drama queen OOC, but it's been a big thing for me this weekend. So a few points.
1) I've really been enjoying this game so far. There's a lot of really good roleplayers in it. And the characters are interesting and somewhat diverse, even if there's too many goody two shoes and not enough pragmatists.
2) I'm really enjoying playing a CN for a change. I rarely play CN, I usually play LG, NG, or LN.
3) I apologize for any OOC strife I brought on. I'm prickly, and had a bad experience recently in another PbP that resulted in my being especially sensitive to certain phrases in posts. I'll do my best to avoid that going forward.
4) I've decided I'm not going to let OOC strife ruin a game for me. I'll just stop reading the OOC discussion if it get's bad. I know this is kind of selfish, but as I said above, I really enjoy this game.
5) Please please please do not confuse IC personality for OOC personality? Sanita is a stubborn, opinionated b!$&+. I am stubborn and opinionated.. hmmm, this isn't going well for my point is it? :) I will try not to let Sanita's IC personality bleed over to my OOC persona, how's that?
6) Kertuffle, thanks for having me in this game, and if the OOC drama hasn't spoiled it, I'd like to continue, unless someone objects.
Sounds good. I'm pushing for NG kingdom by the way. Should be able to redo giant post in five or six hours, even though it probably won't matter now.
Welcome back! Glad to have you along!
Ok,
I've been thinking about this all weekend, and I don't want to be a drama queen OOC, but it's been a big thing for me this weekend. So a few points.1) I've really been enjoying this game so far. There's a lot of really good roleplayers in it. And the characters are interesting and somewhat diverse, even if there's too many goody two shoes and not enough pragmatists.
2) I'm really enjoying playing a CN for a change. I rarely play CN, I usually play LG, NG, or LN.
3) I apologize for any OOC strife I brought on. I'm prickly, and had a bad experience recently in another PbP that resulted in my being especially sensitive to certain phrases in posts. I'll do my best to avoid that going forward.
4) I've decided I'm not going to let OOC strife ruin a game for me. I'll just stop reading the OOC discussion if it get's bad. I know this is kind of selfish, but as I said above, I really enjoy this game.
5) Please please please do not confuse IC personality for OOC personality? Sanita is a stubborn, opinionated b!@+@. I am stubborn and opinionated.. hmmm, this isn't going well for my point is it? :) I will try not to let Sanita's IC personality bleed over to my OOC persona, how's that?
6) Kertuffle, thanks for having me in this game, and if the OOC drama hasn't spoiled it, I'd like to continue, unless someone objects.
I want you to continue, but please, dial down Sanita's personaliy IC too, not just OOC.
If people argue more about your character than the stuff the GM throws at them, maybe said character is a bit too much. Someone like Sanita would be very fun and interesting in a novel, where just one writer thinks of the different reactions and relationships, but in a game with other players, it is disruptive. It is the CN equivalent of the obnoxious ultra-strict no fun allowed Paladin nobody likes. We're lucky to have a reasonable paladin, let's have a reasonable CN too.
I was trying to tone her down Bej.
But everyone else has to tone down too, or it just looks like I'm being disruptive. Yes? So, I will attempt to tone down, and everyone else please attempt to read the post as it is, not 'as it is plus baggage' yes?
Argh, my post lanya long winded speech of doom got swallowed by paizo. They are trying to rig the vote. I demand a recount :P
Sometimes it pays to copy your post before you hit submit. Especially if it's a long post.
Yeah, I have noticed this happens every now and then.
If you use Chrome or Firefox, there are extensions that save your posts, so if you lose one, you can go back and retrieve it.
Alas, that does not work every time. I often have my internet quit while I'm contemplating about what to say next in my post, then you lose everything you've written so far. It's hell I tell you ^^
Mine tends to happen if I am surfing from post to post and looking up info in PDFs at the same time. Or excessive use of the prd when building or leveling up a character.
I have noticed that it only happens to me when posting a long post and you haven't thought to save before submitting it. So my bet is internet gremlins.
The votes go to Wilhelm this time around, barely squeaking past Felix with Lanya third.
Congrats Wilhelm!
Congrats indeed, Mister Paladin.
All hail the king(ish)!
@Posts disappearing. Some web browser actually saves your text if you just hit "Back" after you hit submit and noticed that it is gone =)
Superaven! It's a bird! It's a plane! No, it's a bird! Flying through the air, like a bird!
Well, I figured that "superhuman effort" wouldn't really be the correct term for a bird... : )
Right. I thought it was funny. Munin's a cool Raven. Don't tell him I said so though. It would swell his ego.
Indeed. He would become like a balloon! On the other hand, he wouldn't have to use his wings to fly anymore ...
LOL
Sanita may have to head out anyway. There's no position left she's qualified for.
actually, there's one she might qualify for, it depends on Wilhelm's type of woman however ^^
Qualified? This is politics dear, qualifications isn't necessary.
But yeah, since we are 12 and there are 11 roles (not counting Consort and Heir, since ... yeah) this might be some trouble. Perhaps we can brainstorm one more ... Is there a minister of health/education? Or perhaps grand apothecary or something
I don't think pairing the CN jaded cynic with the LG rose colored glasses would work well. :) Of course, Lanya could move to the consort spot... :) That would free up Grand Diplomat, which Sanita is, in the most ironic way, qualified for. :) Of course she'd scare other people into cooperating, or simply argue them to death, but it'd work. :) ANd Lanya's huge charisma bonus would work well in the consort role...
Alternately you could break Royal Enforcer up into Royal Enforcer (Public Face) and Royal Assassin (Silent Death) and make Masa the Assassin, and put Sanita in the Spymaster roll. Then the two would get on like clams. :)
Might make a good soap on tv though ... Perhaps we can hire a mage to follow the pair around and record everything somehow^^? Extra gold is always nice ... : )
On a more serious note, I haven't really seen any (romantic) sparks between Wil and anyone else and I'm not sure forced/political marriage/relationship might be the best note to start the kingdom on. Splitting or adding an extra role would be my preference, perhaps Kertuffle has some idea ?
Heh, I could see Lanya early on in the Consort spot perhaps, but at later levels they'd think what kind of snake did I marry?
I don't want to do that to poor Wilhelm ^^
I've got no complaints with Wilhelm's distribution of leadership roles - in fact, I thought about it for a while and I couldn't really think of a better distribution.
As for giving Sanita a place, I'm all for creating another role (if it's feasible). We could split Magister up, actually. Dareon wouldn't mind working alongside Sanita. It could be like..."Researcher" and "Teacher" or somesuch.
Sanita grins. "Mmm, Grand High Researcher. I like that one. Right smack dab in the middle between Magister, Military and Spymaster. Skim off the cream of the crop from the schools to be spies and officers. Work up potions, devices, poisons, antidotes, siege engines... All sounds lovely."
Heck yes, so long as I'm informed about the military research division, I'm all for it.
Of course you'd be informed. I'd need your support for the research budget. And Fharn would need you to cover him with the higher ups. :)
Although not an official position, every city needs a Mayor. That is my plan for excess PC's if necessary.
Oh good lord no.
Sanita would rip her hair out after 24 hours and burn the city to the ground.
What!? you don't want to be involved in the day to day lives of lvl 0 commoner NPCs? And run for re-election every two years against some farmer?
Here is a review of various location dependent effects that might be of use in making your kingdom decisions.
OLEG'S TRADING POST: If made into a city district, Oleg's will become a free Shop, Stable or Watchtower. Oleg's also lies on a preexisting road for trading purposes and is surrounded by plains hexes ideal for farmland.
GOLD MINE: This is a resource hex and if it's discovery is announced there is enough gold in the surrounding streams there will be a minor gold rush. First few months the random event will automatically be Economic Boom and alot of the initial decisions will be taken out of your hands for this time. Oleg's will become a chaotic neutral city district free of charge and Oleg's itself will become one of the following (Stable, Shop or Watchtower), your choice. However a Tenement will also spring up free of charge, along with the unrest that comes with it. If Oleg's is already a city district then its alignment will not change, if it isn't then it will become a free city. Since you now have BP you can have more control over actual purchases (Houses instead of Tenemants for instance) but the following should give you a general idea.
MONTH 1
Upkeep Phase-skipped
Improvement Phase
Select Leadership - as normal
Claim Hexes - Oleg's will be claimed, free of charge
Establish and Improve Cities - Oleg's becomes city district free of charge. Choose free Shop, Stable or Watchtower for Oleg's to become. A Tenement will be built free of charge, but this increase unrest by 2, possibly reduced by Watchtower. A Tavern is built for free as your new building construction for the phase.
Build Roads - No money to build roads, this will have to be skipped
Establish Farmlands - No money to establish farmlands, this will have to be skipped
Edicts - As normal
Income Phase
Deposits - As normal
Withdrawals - As normal
Sell Valuable Items - None available
Generate Income - As normal
Event Phase
This will automatically be Economic Boon
MONTH 2
Now that your country has money, the normal rules apply. When the Establish and Improve Cities phase comes up another Tenement is built free of charge (although you can have a House be built for 2 BP instead) and a Brothel must be your new building construction for the phase. But the Brothel is free, at least in terms of build points. Economic Boon will again be the event.
MONTH 3
The boom is dying down. No restrictions other than once again the event will be Economic Boon and either a free Tenement or 2 BP house must be built.
SOOTSCALE CAVERNS
This counts as a resource hex (Silver Mine) and is farmland.
STAG LORD FORT
Can build a castle at half cost due to preexisting structure. Also due to its ideal position, if this is your capital city then your kingdom gains a +1 bonus to Economy, Stability and Loyalty. Once you can construct a Pier you can use the waterways as trade routes. The surrounding land isn't as ideal as the plains by Oleg's for farmland however.
actually, there's one she might qualify for, it depends on Wilhelm's type of woman however ^^
Haven't really given a lot of thought to what Wilhelm's 'type' is. I'm not even sure it's constrained to just women (though women are certainly in). Here's hoping that (possible?) revelation doesn't give poor Felix a heart attack...
I don't think pairing the CN jaded cynic with the LG rose colored glasses would work well. :)
Wilhelm probably concurs...
Of course, Lanya could move to the consort spot... :)
... and then starts blushing furiously while stammering about propriety.
On a more serious note, I haven't really seen any (romantic) sparks between Wil and anyone else
Not as such. When we were doing pre-adventure roleplay, I went a little overboard with my flattery before I had a good grasp on my character. Pretty sure nothing there qualifies as a 'spark' other then Wilhelm being young and naive. If we end up going down this route, I think Felix would get shifted into the Grand Diplomats role and we'd shuffle the rest to appropriately match skills to stats/taste.
As for how to resolve the issue, we could always consider having the Kobold's becoming a semi-autonomous vassal state with Felix at it's head. That would make him a Viceroy. If that happens, then I'd have to rethink how council seats are set up.
As far as capital's go, I think we should resolve that IC but I'm inclined to think we should choose the former Stag Lord's Fort. Then we should move towards and annex Oleg's as quickly as possible.
Edit: Added more thoughts below.
I've got no complaints with Wilhelm's distribution of leadership roles - in fact, I thought about it for a while and I couldn't really think of a better distribution.
It's actually slightly better if Bej becomes treasurer (+3 Int vs +2 Int) and Fhârn becomes Warden (+3 Str vs +2 Con) but I think the way I have it now makes more sense from an IC perspective. Feel free to correct me IC if I'm wrong. :)
Doing a bit more reading of how things will work with the kingdom building. I'm inclined to say we should spend the gold to make the tenements into houses and use the free Oleg's building for a shop to kickstart the economy. Then we should move as fast as possible to annex the Stag Lord's fort (and switch capitols). On the way we build roads/farms to help with the economy. We get the gold mine on the way and it's a short hop to annex the Sootscale's cave. Not sure where we go from there, but some exploration will help.
As far as building, I think we need to focus on the economy first to get it going, then we can shore up weaknesses and go from there. I'll make some more specific suggestions later when I've looked over our options.
Is it required that Oleg's is our first city district?
If so, I recommend that we expand downwards to include the Sootscale Mines and the Stag Lord's Fort as soon as possible, and build a mine on the Gold Mine. If not, we ought to start at the Stag Lord's Fort and expand upwards.
Additionally, Dareon would really like a road improvement to be built in every hex we claim.
He also has the following building requests, in order of importance:
-An Orphanage (6 BP)
-An Herbalist (10 BP)
-An Alchemist (18 BP)
Down the Road:
-A Caster's Tower (30 BP)
-A Magical Academy (58 BP)
-An Academy (52 BP, 46 if already have Library)
As a general I’m inclined to like the defensible fort as a start point.
-Barracks 6 BP, 1 Lot
Kingdom Unrest –1
Upgrade to Garrison
Special Defense +2
Settlement Law +1
A building to house conscripts, guards, militia, soldiers, or similar military forces.
-Garrison 28 BP, 2 Lots
Kingdom Loyalty +2, Stability +2, Unrest –2
Discount City Wall, Granary, Jail
Upgrade From Barracks
A large building to house armies, train guards, and recruit militia.
-City Wall 2 BP
Kingdom Unrest –2 (once per settlement)
Limit Land district border
Special Defense +1
A fortification of one side of a district with a sturdy wall. The GM may allow for cliffs and other natural features to function as a City Wall for one or more sides of a district. You may construct gates through your own city wall at no cost.
-Bank 28 BP, 1 Lot
Kingdom Economy +4
Special Base value +2,000 gp
A secure building for storing valuables and granting loans.
-Castle 54 BP, 4 Lots
Kingdom Economy +2, Loyalty +2, Stability +2, Unrest –4; Fame +1
Discount Noble Villa, Town Hall
Limit 1 per settlement
Special Defense +8
The home of the settlement's leader or the heart of its defenses.
-Jail 14 BP, 1 Lot
Kingdom Loyalty +2, Stability +2, Unrest –2
Settlement Crime –1, Law +1
A fortified structure for confining criminals or dangerous monsters.
-Military Academy 36 BP, 2 Lots
Kingdom Loyalty +2, Stability +1; Fame +1
Discount Barracks
Limit 1 per settlement
Special Armies and commanders recruited at the settlement gain one bonus tactic (see Army Tactics)
Magic Items 1 minor armor, shield, or weapon; 1 medium armor, shield, or weapon
Settlement Law +1, Lore +1
An institution dedicated to the study of war and the training of elite soldiers and officers.
-Town Hall 22 BP, 2 Lots
Kingdom Economy +1, Loyalty +1, Stability +1
Discount Barracks, Cistern, Dump, Jail, Watchtower
Settlement Law +1
A public venue for town meetings, repository for town records, and offices for minor bureaucrats.
Sanita grins at Wilhelm. "Nobody said you had to sleep with her..." She tells him, winking at Lanya. "Of course, if she's game for it... well, nobody would blame you. The important thing is a pretty couple in fancy dresses."
Yeah, if Felix had won out... and not been turned in to a kobold, he would have asked Wilhelm his feelings. If there could have been a spark there, well, such things are not in the cards. If I had chosen elf it may have been interesting, but I do not regret kobold for one moment. I am looking forward to the roleplay. The thing is now less of an issue. Kobold mating drive is not like human needs. Without chemistry everyone just becomes really good friends you care about.
You may need to look at different person for councilor though, I honestly think we are going to realy just end up with two separate nations here, and I don't think that will be a bad thing. If this happens I would appreciate it if the kobolds were given the fort as a place where we can start a nation that accepts all species. A nation of peoples that can rise above what everyone assumed they will always be. Besides, the kobolds may not give me a choice what with the way they are starting to act.
Sanita grins at Wilhelm. "Nobody said you had to sleep with her..." She tells him, winking at Lanya. "Of course, if she's game for it... well, nobody would blame you. The important thing is a pretty couple in fancy dresses."
Flushing red, Wilhelm looks at Sanita, eyes popping and mouth working soundlessly. Glancing at Lanya, he flushes a darker crimson before he snaps his mouth shut. In a strained tone, he finally manages to blurt out in a rush, "I don't think this... topic... is up for discussion. It would be probably be inappropriate regardless of what I may des... THINK... think, now that I've been elected leader. Canwegatbacktobusinessnow?!?"
Yeah, if Felix had won out... and not been turned in to a kobold, he would have asked Wilhelm his feelings.
Flushing red and returning Felix's gaze levelly, Wilhelm stumbles through a brief sentence as he becomes increasingly flustered, "I... you... me... err. That is to say, Felix... cousin... uh. I don't really know you too well? You are still my cousin and... well... I don't know. We were political rivals, how does this even makes sense?" Wilhelm clamps his mouth shuts and finally lowers his gaze. "I err... honestly don't know. Let me figure some things out and I'll... let you know?"
As far as the kobold's thing goes, I'm tempted to say that a semi autonomous vassal state seems to work best. We protect them against the surrounding human lands, give them full citizenship and then can rule their own lands and maybe 1 hex around it as they wish with some details (How beholden to us are they? Do they make their own laws? Do they have input in our laws? etc) to be worked out. Who knows, maybe they'll be content if we form a city there and let them run it and the surrounding countryside like they want.
This all makes for some awkward conversation and all, but I don't think that Felix should start a kingdom all by his lonesome. If anything, the best starting state for him would be as Viceroy within our kingdom, leading the kobold tribes. They can absorb the other monstrous races as well and maintain separate settlements, but I think that our kingdoms ought to be intrinsically linked. We're all one party, after all.
There's nothing making this a different group if Felix generates a vassal state. He's still going to be part of the party. A vassal state is still part, just with some autonomy.
Honestly, that might be the best compromise too. The big issues that Sanita had with a NG country are mostly mitigated if it has a smaller N vassal country (I don't see the kobolds going good in the near future).
Plus it still leaves a 'Switzerland' locale for various countries to meet in.
Oh, I'm advocating a vassal state as opposed to a separate kingdom. That's all.
There is another option to our 12 player problem. Move Vors of royal enforcer and give him a mayor position, that would be fine with me in and out pf character.
Hmm, as for were we should plant the banner first - all the slots explored have a nice set of perks and bonuses (gold vein, silver @ Sootscale, castle @ Staggy) but only one actually help us get into it quicker (Olegs). My vote is that we start there and expand downwards, trying to gobble up all the useful hexes on the way!
Besides, I'm not actually sure where on the map the Stag Lords keep is. I assume it is somewhere along the river that goes trough the Sootscale lands?
@Wilhelm: I use "on a more serious note" - that way it only needs to be less silly then what stands before it =)
I'd advocate to get a strong economy going first before we try to focus on any particular design, get our country stable as a priority. It does have to make sense of course, so getting a few houses, tavern, shops and farmland and such up first.
On the topic of Wilhelm's love interest, we could just say Lanya is enchanting and Wilhelm might have a hard time resisting her, if she starts flirting.
If it comes to it, Fhârn could probably relinquish his office - with all his craft skills and feats I think he might be able to find something to do with his time aswell : ) Perhaps even a non-mechanical title like Master of Arms or Grand Artificer or something ...