Legions and Generals

Game Master NarcoticSqurl

I have been working through my cohort's equipment, and I realized i will probably have money left over when I am done. Is it okay to use the cohort's spare money on the followers?

Sure thing!

Awesome, that lets me have a little more fun with the followers.

Here we go! New budget for myself, cohort, and army. Let's hope this works!

I'm taking my time.

I just realized siege engines are a thing.

Good lists guys. I'll have a new post by the morning, so keep an eye open.

Mangonels are smallish-catapults used for flinging large numbers of small rocks, at a high velocity and low trajectory. Historically they were only used in siege operations, but I've never seen a reason not to use them on the battlefield.

Also, Orson, are you being sarcastic, or...? Could you please just write more so we can know what exactly you are either proposing or critiquing?
Of note, medieval intelligence was often a hit-or-miss thing. Up until really WWII and the use of aerial photographs it was not uncommon for estimates to be off by a factor of ten. Simply knowing that the enemy A) -had- an army and B) was moving it, was often all that could reasonably expected.
During McClellan's Peninsular campaign of 1862, even though that was past the medieval period, and against an enemy in the same state, he thought he faced an army more than four times its actual size. =)

I was going with that, we don't know where they are or what they are doing. It is quite common for people to draw out an enemy, and assess their strength. This 'disposable' force might be used for that kind of tactic, to assess our strength and things of the sort while they don't lose anything important. Does that clear it up? I can rewrite what i said if you want.

Lolz! Oh no, don't re-write it. Chaos is part of medieval warfare, so an addendum would be best. Just say more and act as though I'm very stupid (which might also be true. ;)

Also, that's the thing about a "Reconisance in Force", which is what you are describing. Yes, it might be a diversion. But...a massive horde of undead is still a massive hoard of undead. It needs some killin'.
And, while it might be a diversion, we can't kill what we don't know about. If we flat out don't see it coming, we'll have to wait until it lands, and just take measures as best we can.
Like, at the Battle if Shiloh, Grant didn't know where the enemy was, and got surprise attacked. But he took it, regrouped, and went on the offense the next day, and wiped out the last Confederate army in the West, basically eliminating it as a fighting unit.
Hence, I 'm saying just because we think the wasp nest is a trap, doesn't make it a bad idea to punch it, we just have to bring -all- the wasp repellent.
Does that make sense? =)

(PS. I love talking about warfare. If you want me to say more (or less :) just say so. It's been a hobby of mine for a while now. =))

I need something nasty for my dragonfly to drop on the bad guys.

Muleback cords mean that weight isn't really an issue.

Yea, I was going for the idea that when shit hits the fan we don't have all of our eggs in one basket. I do agree we have to kill the massive horde of the undead, but we don't have to over commit everything we have

The obvious ideas are either caltrops or flaming oil. I think oil is cheaper, although caltrops would be persistant. Mind you, the oil gets a full d6, while the cals are only 1 point, and ineffective against skelies.

Calculate exactly how much you can carry, and we'll fill drum and set it on fire for you to drop on them. =)

Fire: Killing things since 30,000BC!

@Orson: *chuckle* Overkilling is the only way to kill things! =)
Srsly, how sad are we gonna be if this is the main spike and we hold back and get overrun? If our intel says there's only one target, unless we know our enemy is known for either speed or stealth (which zombies and skelies are not known for) to give them too much credit can do us harm. (The aforementioned McClellen lost the Penn. Campaign for roughly the same reason: He kept seeing ghosts and never fully commited to battle, so his field units were always outnumbered, even though he had more men in theatre.)

Anyway, I don't want to sound like keeping a Strategic Reserve isn't a good idea, because it is. I just don't get the feeling that NarcoticSqurl is gonna throw a double-blind at us for our first encounter. =)
(But is he gonna have wraiths pop out of the ground and attack our rear areas? Oh definitely. I assume that. =)

So while we're thinking about heavy artillery does anyone have people proficient in siege weapons?

Is that a rule in PFS? I know that 3rd ed has something like that, but UC doesn't seem to mention it.

Profession Soldier should do the trick I believe, to use them.

Oh my word Ultimate combat also has the rules for specific siege engines. O.o Why haven't I seen these before?

Okay, I'm sorry. I had been speaking hypothetically. Now that there are actual rules, I guess I should play by them, huh? =)

Guess I will be taking the siege weapons for someone else to use for us hahahaha

Well being that we have guns everywhere which treats firearms as simple weapons we can bring cannons and bombards as practically everyone know hos to use them.

I considered it myself but it didn't match up to the theme in my head of a fast and mobile army.

Oh boy.

Hey everyone, quick questions. The internet didn't seem to have a good answer to this:

1) Are Bombards affected by the "guns are at 10% price" thing? UC says it applies to gune "in this chapter" which might not include them. I hadn't thought about them because it didn't seem to apply, making them prohibitive, but if it does, that...then that changes everything.

2) If we each can call on, say, 1000 soldiers (give or take. I don't know what NarcoticSqurl is giving us) would it be feasible that 5% of them would be artillery specialists?
I mean, each 1st level character gets a feat, yeah? And doesn't that apply to NPC's? They could just take that exotic weapon slot and BAM. Also, BOOM.

I do not believe it would affect the price. From what I have read in the siege engine section here. I have not found anything that indicates a price reduction. It makes sense to me for the price to stay where it is. If a bombard was only double the cost of a rifle (rifle is 400 gp in guns everywhere, while a bombard would only be 800 gp is the price reduction effect it), it wouldn't really make any sense. I hope that helps.

I don't really know for your other question Imrael, but I hope that we can assume that.

Not a clue to be honest.

Also, with the debate between caltrops and fire.... Am I the only one who saw BEAR TRAPS in the Ultimate Equipment guide and thought "That's a hell of a lot better"?

If it'll make things easier, I'll count siege weapons as a martial weapons for proficiency. Otherwise your followers can use them as if they were proficient.

Its fine for the purpose of this encounter, I will have to decide to boost my cavalry or my infantry as I get more followers, which it might just my heavy infantry.

For the purpose of having more soldiers can my cohort have leadership, or I guess I'll one feat for a second leadership feat to get more and an additional cohort?

Sure! The more the merrier.

I was just wondering. How long has this conflict been going on before all of our armies were called together?

Hey guys.

It looks like NS needs a little more energy from us, so I'm going to try to form our battle plan. Please note that I am NOT doing this to be bossy or an @$$. I'm just trying to make sure that we all have the same notion of how the battle will go. It'll be better for the game if we have a plan hammered out before we break camp, so just let fly.

Of note, this is our first encounter, so let's not try to be too complicated. I freely admit that having a bunch of different harrassing attacks are good, but let's get through this first battle so we understand how the dice are rolling before we start talking about Skirmishers and Double-Envelopments and things.

For right now how's a simple Right Flank sound? There are seven of us, and two are humans with mounts.

So how does it sound to make a battleline with five of us, and then the two horsemen can carry out the Flank.

With five, there are five positions on the line: Left, Center-Left(CL), Center(C), Center-Right(CR), and Right.

Then the two horsemen will be held in reserve until they launch themselves along our Right, into the enemy's Left. Hopefull they'll carry the day and roll up the enemy's line.

Again, I really have no idea how NS is handling this, so I don't wanna get too nutso with tactics. Let's get through this and then we can see how more complicated actions can fit in.

How's that sound? =)

Mahreena, UC has rules for some spells that affect Mass Combat, so I assume he's using those rules.

That sounds good. I'll start figuring out how to respond in a fluent manner in the gameplay channel, but Raidon will be fine with the idea.

The conflict has been going on for a year, with Marcaus causing distress in Northern Avithale and the Helfrost. Forces have been rallied from both areas, as well as the drow and northern Frostwalkers (nomadic barbarians). Now here's the up and up, if I haven't gotten back to you, please just be kind enough to repost or PM me if need be. I bit off a tad bit more than I think was wise, so I'm currently moving my maps and stats from paper to computer.

Please feel free to role play, I love that aspect the most. I should have a map up by Thursday, at which point I'll initiate the first skirmishes and battles if that works with everybody.

Will we be building actual armies with the mass combat system, or will our army for now just be our followers?

been feeling ill all day. updating tommorrow.been

I just have a couple questions on how field runners work. How does reloading work for the side guns, and the gun on top? And is the extra ammo is on the vehicle?

It looks like we might have lost a few people. I'm not worried, we still have a good sized party.

Tark, I've read some of your articles, so I know you like to talk tactics. =) Care to talk some shop? I promise to start out with something controversial. :-O

I've never been a big fan of Guerrilla Warfare. Oh, now, don't get me wrong. It's had some good press and big wins: Vietnam, Afghanistan, the Boer Wars, The American Revolution. Good stuff. It's power can not be discounted.
But when facing a scenario of "Total War" I think it's value can be overinflated. The Russians didn't win in the East because of Scorched Earth, they won because they encircled the 6th Army Group at Stalingrad. France wasn't re-taken because of the Resistance movement, it was re-taken because of D-Day.
A lot of the defeats of Guerrilla forces are really glossed over, mainly because it's not very good reading to read or analyze a smaller force that was run over by a bigger one.

Like, one that always come to mind is the Seminole Wars. (Really, the Indian Wars in general, but this specifically.) Here we have a very Vietnam-like atmosphere: The enemy (The Seminole Indians) were famously described by one general as saying "The will not fight and will not treat" meaning that they struck from concealment at targets, and then disappeared into their native swamps.

But the American government wanted them out, and so they instituted a full-coverage theatre-wide plan, and the numerological and technologically inferior Indians ran out of ground to run to and were forced to capitulate.

Another example is the Battle of Teutoburg Forest. The Germans had been running Guerrilla Warfare on the Romans for a long time, but had been steadily pushed back by the legions. It was only when Arminius had a plan to engage -all- of the Romans that they finally knew victory. Specifically, at the foot of Kalkriese Hill. There he had a prepared position against which the Romans could crash upon and be killed in their thousands. He had a wall, but he had to stay at that wall, no matter what.

Anyway, that just IMHO. YMMV. =)

Actually what he described is more akin to modern American tactics involving either overwhelming firepower or precision raids by specialized forces. Armored columns and heavy vehicle use might be involved as well but sadly we had to leave the tanks behind. By the time regular troops start filing in the rest of the enemy is so battered, bruised, and scattered taking territory is just a matter of course. And let's face it, I have rifles, light armored vehicles, and magical tools GOP hawks only dream of.

So basically all things being ideal the main force of undead would never be engaged. Several small teams would be sent in to eliminate the command structure, air strikes and artillery would wipe out communications and air defenses if any so the rest of the middling undead would be disposed of at will. Elves don't have the numbers to play attrition warfare as seen in 1861. She's got better guns and loads more tools at her disposal than to do that. And ultimately her force isn't all that big. 15 riflemen, 2 of which are magic users with her and her cohort providing the biggest magical punch.

His description was broad and vague on purpose to mollify someone whose enthusiasm was shot down. Mainly because he is a diplomat and a gentleman where Tarrana is a mechanic and tactician. In her mind broadly choosing strategies without proper information is a waste of time even if it's on a "just in case" basis. To date we have no way of knowing what the terrain is like. How do we know it's amenable to cavalry? How do we know that Orson's suspicion about a distractionary force isn't correct? How do we know if there isn't a second army of life draining shadows and wraiths hiding just beneath the undead army during the day? (God I sincerely hope not). That's why Tarrana is quickly trying to mobilize and get their so a proper accounting of the place can be taken. The terrain, enemy composition, or even the weather can throw a broad plan out of the window very quickly. As it is she has her orders and that's to beat the undead army to the punch and defeat them there before they can get into anymore territory.

In napoleonic terms her group would be skirmishers and scouts. In modern terms she's just a platoon commander.

Checked into the doctor with a blood sugar of 597. I'll post wendesday evening.

Cool - a map. What scale is it? How many enemies does each dot represent?
Now that they actually have to show up, I suppose I should solidify my followers.

1) I'm so very sorry, TakXT. That sounds awful, but I hope you're okay!

2) Cool - a map! =)

Ditto what he asked. Also, are we to assume that where we and our troops are now are just to the left? Or do we get to be wherever we want to be?

It the map tactical or strategic in scale? As in, is this the map we are moving to, or the map we are fighting on?

Also, what are we fighting with? I'm sorry if I missed this. Do we only have our followers?

Can the map have some grid coordinates added to it please?

And maybe a key? Are the mountains and water impassible? Or is the water only level 2, allowing me to hide my legs and increase the efficieny of my heat sinks---sorry. Ah, FASA, we hardly knew ye. =)

3) Guys, There look like there are two natural choke points: right in the middle bewteen the two lakes, and on the far left side where we would have the mountains on our right, and that 4-hex lake on our left.
(I'm assuming we want a choke point because we'll probably be outnumbered, and to give our artillery the best chance and the most targets.)

I'll work on grid points and a key. The grid is a 5x5 mile size. The dots all represent 5-8000 troops (roughly had to mash multiple groups together due to chokes and valleys). You'll all only have followers. Virgil has his own forces.

I see a couple of good choke points. MAybe. Hard to tell without a key as everything is just assumptions until then.

As in, the enemy army is 5-8000 total? Or each dot is 5000 troops? I'm just asking because there are 33 of them, so 5K each would be 165000(yikes!) enemy troops.

That's a lot of skeletons and zombies + handlers and any other hidden awesome stuff we need to deal with.

Each dot being 5-8k. Yes, I did say massive scale ;). The key will be up by tomorrow, as well as a revised map with coordinates. For now though, ready your armies in any way that you see fit. I can tell you that the water areas that are in the middle, or beyond the right side, are small oasis's dotting the desert, since it's still relatively close to the shoreline. So depth won't be any issue.

I still wouldn't fight over a water source and clean water that can be used for medical purposes.

Well...huh.

I'm sorry guys, I guess I was totally wrong. It's probably best to ignore everything I've said up to this point. =)
I'm not sure what a handful of PCs, even high level ones, can do against ~200K undead.

Should we just make a defensive position and just hold it?

This is where I'd hope someone made a wizard or sorcerer with awesome fireballs lol.

I guess long range is our best friend to drop down their numbers a bit.

There is no reliable way to do a bottleneck so we would be overrun at some point. siege equipment that does area damage is a help.

We could try to herd them to a bottleneck, but we need to find one that would work reliably.

I guess our flyers can target the controllers and hope siege engines do the same, this would eliminate a lot of them.

Maybe we can use our high mobility to try to separate parts of their forces and take care of them easily. I'm pretty sure horses are faster than undead, so I can be some sort of distraction perhaps?

Psssssshhhhhhhhooooo.

Alright, I like this idea about kiting a few of them. Try and ride-and-shoot, and see what happens. With any luck some of the heavy hitters they have will come out and engage you, so you can kill them and make it easier on the troops to just take out the normal folk.

I'll set up an impromptu fortress, and we can operate out of it. I'll have a few Fly spells extra, so let me know if you can use one.

Hell, I could actually use a few of you as guards. I'm gonna drop some fire on their heads, but I'd like a few melee types to come up with me in case they also have fliers.

Alright, Hexographer and GIMP are both being a$%**#+s, and somehow I can't label out coordinates, are gather the hex's in a key fashion, so I'm doing what I can, I've written it out and put it in the Campaign Information tab. Until I can find an easier map program, I'll have to do it this way, or if any of you have ideas, then please let me know.

The key and coordinates are available though. Since concerns were raised, I'll allow an army of 2000 per PC of Virgil's men as well. He has upwards of 50,000 men, aside from what's being loaned out to you all.