I also think leaving Arawn and Rufus would make for some entertaining results. (But I leave it as an exercise to their players to decide if they want to or not.) It would definitely be a good way to have the two hash out their differences.
Xel and Alayi would make sense to me... both of us have given some promise to them that they would be safe if they repented (and were sincere about it) so both would have the most to gain by staying behind. No one has Engineering knowledge (who knows, maybe Oleg or one of the bandits has some talent for it) so even though Alayi will probably begin repairing/replacing the pieces for those siege engines to pass the time while you are gone (and will tell you as much) there is no one that is going to jump up and down and say "I can help with that, let me stay". Besides, you would get the same interaction with Arawn and Rufus on the away team, only you would also have Korinne and Castor to keep them... let's say "focused"... yes, focused works. I am not sure that Xel or Alayi would be able to do that to the same degree.
Ok, here's the thing guys. We can't afford to overspecialize, not at the beginning. All of us need to be able to do more than one thing. That, as much as anything else, is the problem Rufus had with how we handled the bandits initially. Xelani needs to be able to get 'stuck in' occasionally, Rufus needs to use a bow once in a while (Especially if he is the only one who can use that Composite Longbow to full effect), Alayini & the other casters need to be able to use a crossbow or sling or something. I realize there is a natural desire to stick to what you are really good at, but there are always going to be times when 'X' is going to have to happen & the only one who is available is somebody who is best at 'Y'.
I don't necessarily think that leaving Arawn & Rufus alone with the prisoners & the Levetons is the best idea right now. They need to both see something useful in the other that they can respect & I don't believe that has happened yet. I would definitely say that one or the other needs to be part of the outbound party, give them some time away from each other.
I also think leaving Arawn and Rufus would make for some entertaining results. (But I leave it as an exercise to their players to decide if they want to or not.) It would definitely be a good way to have the two hash out their differences.
I'm up for it!
Xel and Alayi would make sense to me... both of us have given some promise to them that they would be safe if they repented (and were sincere about it) so both would have the most to gain by staying behind. No one has Engineering knowledge (who knows, maybe Oleg or one of the bandits has some talent for it) so even though Alayi will probably begin repairing/replacing the pieces for those siege engines to pass the time while you are gone (and will tell you as much) there is no one that is going to jump up and down and say "I can help with that, let me stay". Besides, you would get the same interaction with Arawn and Rufus on the away team, only you would also have Korinne and Castor to keep them... let's say "focused"... yes, focused works. I am not sure that Xel or Alayi would be able to do that to the same degree.
Both probably would, really. I really can't say how well Castor or Kori would, really. Haven't seen enough to make an accurate assessment (really want to, though).
I'll keep going back to the AoE, too, unless someone says otherwise. Alayi and Kori, maybe?
Granted, it explains so much, but I still find it hard to believe...
Hey! I dumped Strength, thankyouverymuch! :P
@Rufus: Alayi goes for melee first, ranged with her bow second, third with casting (I play her like she knows a few spells that are semi useful by intuition, but for the most part she tries not to rely on them favoring her sword arm instead). Just a minor correction, but for the point you were making having her have to cast spells instead of using martial skills would be more in thematic keeping.
Oh, and not sure about the others but Ifrits take a -2 off the bat to WIS to balance the +2 CHA and +2 DEX. Or to put it the way the ARG puts it, the race is passionate and quick, but also impetuous and destructive. It cost me two points at build just to break even at 10, and I only did that because I refuse to play a character with a negative attribute as a general rule. We all can't be wise beyond our years, eh?
Basically I was just surprised that the only member of the party who actually had a Wisdom modifier higher than 0 was Castor...
On the other hand, as I said, it explains so much...
Before everyone gets too enthusiastic about diplomatising Oleg into submission, let's keep in mind what we are actually asking him to do. A group of violent thugs has systematically terrorized & stolen from he and his wife for several months. We come in, magically dispatch the thugs and then turn around and tell him 'we are going to leave these guys here with you while we go off after more bad guys'.
Am I the only one who doesn't think this plan looks that far fetched? Especially considering the alternative would be straight-out executing them - which would kind of clash with the party mostly being made of good characters?
Basically, we're not just leaving them with him. We're asking him to act as their jailer, and making clear it's going to be a favor, not a request. We're still going to volunteer to leave some of our numbers behind should he balk at the risk - a risk I don't see as dire as it might seem. Let's talk mechanics; and yes, I think that even in-game, our characters have a qualitative grasp of them, they just don't quantify them as we do (basically, you don't need to have access to a Grand Unified Theory of Gravity to know that things fall down).
We would leave them bound, with ropes if no chains are available in the trading post (I somehow suppose they're not, but here's to hoping). Should Rufus be the one doing the tying up, they'd need a 25 DC escape artist to free themselves; something your average low-level bandit is very unlikely to accomplish even should he opt to try and try again by taking 20 when nobody's there to check on him.
I know - leaving POWs in the care of a random civilian we've just met likely clashes with every possible war doctrine ever written. I just don't think real world tactics apply to a heroic fantasy setting, or even if they do, we can just hand wave them and move on. Once again, I stress this point: entire mass movements have been founded with less charismatic effort than the one we put in subduing those bandits. Our characters are so much more than your average guy, it stands to reason not all of their overconfidence would stem from their barely average Wisdom stat.
Regarding the issue of who should be left behind, I think that from a RP point of view, Xelani and Alayi make the most sense: they already share a bond of friendship, they trust each other and they were the most vocal proponents of actually trying to redeem those bandits (at least in their dealings with them). Gameplay-wise, Arawn's suggestion of leaving at least one AoE-capable character is very sound, though I hope it won't come to that. Generally speaking, having two characters instead of one guarding the tradepost would at least allow them to roleplay a little with each other while waiting for the others to return - so I'm all for it.
@Rufus: with her Precise Shot feat and a decent AC, Xelani might behave decently in close quarter combat (not well, but decently) should she happen to be cornered. I don't see her rushing into melee anytime soon, obviously, unless there'd be an even "squishier" character in need of protection and shielding. And the Composite Longbow is all yours, since I'd suffer a -2 penalty if I'd try to use it. Now that I think of it, I might ask Alayi to use her forced downtime as jailer to start crafting me a +1 Str Composite Longbow ;)
From and OOC standpoint, leaving Alayi and Xelani seems like a good idea to me. It'll give them a chance to establish their pre-existing friendship in the course of roleplay. At the same time, it'll allow Castor and Korinne to help Rufus and Arawn hash out their differences.
As far as specializing and generalizing, I will admit that Castor is very specialised in the support angle, though he can fire a bow quite proficiently, particularly if Xelani's auras are involved. However being a supporter means that he can focus on helping whichever element is more important at the moment. If we need melee, he'll be buffing the meleers, increasing their power. If we need range, there he is behind the archers, and taking a few potshots himself. If we need utility divine casting, he's your man for sure, and if we need arcane casting... well, everyone has some weaknesses.
Alright, sounds like you guys have a plan and a contingency plan. So let's enact it :)
I will say that if you mention some people in the group staying behind to help, that will help the diplomacy check a lot.
Would it be best to lead with that, though? Considering that it's the contingency plan?
Would it be best to lead with that, though? Considering that it's the contingency plan?
Yes, because it isn't the contingency plan. It's the plan.
Two people, by themselves, aren't going to be able to adequately guard five. Particularly not when one of those five has a death sentence.What Rufus has been trying to tell the rest of you from the time he first recognized Happs was that the man has a bounty on his head in Restov.
I'm going to have to side with Rufus here. It was conceived as a contingency plan, but thinking about it, I think it's pretty much our only option.
Agreed... especially given Oleg's attitude to them. Which I understand. These men have been robbing him, belittling him, and effectively terrorizing him and his wife for months. Now they are all conveniently disarmed, bound, and helpless. And we are talking about rehabilitiation and freedom for these same men. I can say for certain that in the same shoes, if our characters just left them there I would be more than just slightly tempted to execute the lot of them while the "heros" are gone. I probably wouldn't do it, but I would also understand the man that would.
I suppose I misunderstood the plan, then.
-Posted with Wayfinder
That makes two of us - though Alayi's point (which she had already expressed IC, only not in spoken form) is a very fair one, and I have actually no qualms about spending a little bit of time at Oleg's with her.
So, I take the one and only official plan is now for us to ask Oleg to keep the bandits at his trade post for a while, with Xelani and Alayi staying behind as their wardens. Let's put that in motion.
ADDENDUM: By all means, Castor, Alayi, feel free to conclude your conversation - this way our characters will have in-game the same information that transpired from this discussion (namely, both Xelani and Alayi's willingness to act as wardens to the prisoners).
After that, we can go to Oleg and finally make a truly unanimous proposal.
Heh, just waiting on Castor to start filling me in, as it were. ;)
If the GM and others want though I am willing to have that discussion happen "off screen" as it were to speed things up, given we are (correct me if I am wrong) all on board with both the plan in general and its particulars (Xel and I stay, the other four head off to... wait... light bulb...)
Sorry, good idea fairy just hit me with a possible idea, but one that I think that Rufus at least (if not more) won't like. 5 riders set out to raid this place, led by Happs. We are sending 4 party members to deal with the camp they came from. Why not bring the subterfuge levels up a bit by bringing Happs along on the way back.
2) If Happs goes along with this (and doesn't betray everyone, see spoiler for Risks) it goes a bit toward both his proving his repentance and beginning to work off his sentence.
3) With Happs along (again with the caveats at point 2) the party will be able to get to the camp faster with a guide than just trying to follow his directions.
4) On the off chance that Restov's soldiers arrive, Happs is not present to be a point of contention between Alayi and Xel and their commander (you can't hang someone who isn't there). He also is not present to potentially try an uprising of the prisoners.
2) The party would pretty much have to be committed to the "infiltrate and surprise attack" plan. They could not leave someone behind or have stragglers without raising suspicions from whatever guards are present at the camp. So the weak point would be the disguise of the least stealthy.
3) They would probably have to take some form of "spoils" from Oleg with them to be convincing. Oleg probably would be less than happy about that, especially given there is a significant chance they might fail and not return.
Like I said, not likely we are going for this plan (I still like our current plan and division of party members) but felt like throwing it out there while we still could talk about it and shoot it down... or adopt it... or whatever.
Actually, I like the idea of taking Happs along just fine. I was, in fact, going to suggest that very thing.
1 it gets him out of the trading camp so the guards won't be tempted to hang him if they get back before we do.
2 as you say, it gives him a chance to 'prove' his repentance.
3 he could be useful on the trip.
Ok I think we have be deliberating for enough time. I will give it until around tomorrow night for the majority to definitively post IC what you guys want to do.
I know the general concensus is the have Alayi and Xelani stay behind. I'm fine with that but having Happs come along does have merits(both good and bad). So, I'll allow a little bit more deliberation before I just assume that you guys talk with Oleg and have Alayi and Xelani stay behind with the prisoners, Happs included. I just want to keep this stuff moving so we don't bog down too much on the prisoners delimma :D
Very nice idea Alayi. With a bit of luck, we might just have round 2 replicate our round 1 blitzkrieg-like performance.
Plus, as Rufus pointed out, it kind of solves our little conundrum about what to do with Happs: either he stays loyal proving his goodwill, or he tries to betray us voiding any kind of promises we've made him (or, for extra safety, Arawn might just charm him once you're near their camp).
That actually is a pretty good plan. And, yeah, like Xelani said, we can mitigate some of the risk by having Arawn Charm him once we get close. I like this plan.
On a side note, GMGM, have they really taken this long to get the thread ownership changed over? You might wanna send that email again...
That actually is a pretty good plan. And, yeah, like Xelani said, we can mitigate some of the risk by having Arawn Charm him once we get close. I like this plan.
Don't. That is a horrible plan. You do that & you have all but guaranteed that we are going to have to kill him afterwards...
And if we take him with us, and don't use a charm on him, we all but guarantee that he will turn on us. He's not repentant, at all. He fed us information so that we wouldn't kill him. Get him near his allies, he'll take the opportunity to rejoin them and get the drop on us.
And if we take him with us, and don't use a charm on him, we all but guarantee that he will turn on us. He's not repentant, at all. He fed us information so that we wouldn't kill him. Get him near his allies, he'll take the opportunity to rejoin them and get the drop on us.
If that is the case, then he should be executed. The Charm doesn't allow him to repent either. It compels him.
Mmh... let's elaborate on that plan. Xelani and Rufus might roll some sense motive checks, try to discern what his true intentions are.
I don't suppose we could really talk about loyalties when it comes to his likes - he'd probably throw in his lot with whomever he'd perceive as making him the strongest offer. So that'd be us - offering him his life and a chance at a honest life - against this Kressel / Stag Lord, who could grant him freedom but at the same time punish him harshly for his failure / for having led us to their camp. He might consider betraying us his last shot at redeeming himself in the eyes of his bosses, but if he's not stupid he'd realize that plan entails more danger than profit.
Should we smell duplicity or dishonesty, we could just tell him plain and simple: Sorry, but we still don't trust you enough to venture in your former fellows' camp in your company. We're going to cast a spell on you which should make you more... agreeable for a short period of time - once it has run its course, your boss will have been subdued, and you're going to be rewarded for your efforts." It's no different than keeping him bound, after all.
Or better yet, have Arawn ready to cast charm at the first sign of him trying something, like calling for his allies. That should stop him immediately in his tracks. If we managed to infiltrate their camp with no one being the wiser, I foresee a very short battle.
I'll admit I'm not super super fond of the idea of charming Happs, but more than that, I'm not too sure about bringing him in the first place, either, to be truthful. Like Rufus said, we'd just be bringing him back to his allies while he hasn't shown to be repentant, merely cooperative to avoid the gallows.
For all we know, he'll shout to alert the camp when we get near so they'll free him from our grasp.
It's not a compulsion; it's not Dominate.
Charm: A charm spell changes how the subject views you, typically making it see you as a good friend.
Compulsion: a compulsion spell forces the subject to act in some manner or changes the way its mind works. Some compulsion spells determine the subject's actions or the effects on the subject, others allow you to determine the subject's actions when you cast the spell, and still others give you ongoing control over the subject.
If we aren't going to execute them or send them back to Restov to face justice (and execution), we're going to have to figure out something else to do with them. We can not drag them through the wilds with us as we explore/map the Greenbelt, and we can't keep leaving someone behind at Oleg's to watch them because we can't trust the guards not to enact justice as Restov's laws dictate. So what do we do with them, then Because none of them have displayed ANY sort of repentance. The minions lied (poorly) about giving up the life, and Happs didn't even bother to lie. He flat out said he was only helping so that we wouldn't kill him. They're not sorry for what they've done, they're sorry they got caught. It's not about allowing them to repent. They simply don't want to.
The Charm will allow us to use Happs to infiltrate and capture his compatriots without bloodshed. If we're going to take him along with us, it's the only way to ensure that the infiltration plan will work (and even then only so far). If you're set on going in being guided by someone who is going to turn on us at first opportunity, we might as well leave him behind. Either way, we're going to have to assault their camp, and at least if we leave him we'll have one less enemy to worry about.
@Castor: Those were my first thoughts too, but then I realized that if he tries something along those lines he'll be either
- dead the next round (I suggest we approach the camp in a cross formation, with him being at the center) or
- immediately charmed and scrabbling to explain his former allies how those shouts were just a joke.
As long as we're outside the camp, he would be incredibly stupid to try anything like that. Once we're in, provided we keep close to him it'd be only slightly less suicidal (we're keeping him unarmed, after all) - but at that point the ruse would have already served its purpose. In the end, it's just a matter of showing him how staying loyal to us would be the option best serving his own interests (which I take should be being 1. alive 2. free and 3. well-off, in that order).
That's just my 0,02€, anyway.
I like that last one (having charm as a reserve) as an "all else fails" safeguard. In that case it keeps the infiltration assault viable despite his treachery. And while Rufus is right that the casting of charm on him would pretty much guarantee his needing to be executed, his previous attempt at betrayal that triggered the charm button voided any promises of mercy given... so it all washes out.
Rufus is correct though... charming him both makes him less likely to be repentent later and really does make it so that we are less likely to ever begin the process of trusting him. Casting charm on him from the get go is in effect just treating him as an inanimate tool, not a person, and really does go against the principles we are perporting in character to have.
With Xelani's point, then yeah, I'm okay with it.
But yes, let us keep charming as a "last resort" thing; not as the default plan.
I basically subscribe every single word Alayi said. Indeed, I wasn't very clear in that regard in my previous posts, but what I'm suggesting is
- giving him a chance as the main plan, and
- being ready to charm him as the backup plan.
Ok, now to reach a consensus before our GM sees his children and grandchildren graduating as he waits for us to come up with a plan ;)
OK, from what I can tell this is how it stands:
Alayi: for Happs coming, against charm (except in event of treachery)
Xel: for Happs coming, against charm (except in event of treachery)
Korinne: for Happs coming, against charm (except in event of treachery)
Castor: for Happs coming, against charm (possibly in event of treachery?)
Rufus: for Happs coming, against charm (not sure about any caveots)
Arawyn: only for Happs coming if charmed, if then.
Did I misrepresent anyone's views?
I can get behind the plan for charming him only if he betrays us.
I'm just fairly certain that it will be necessary.
Yeah. If he turns against us, then magic's as fair a weapon as any. Justice must do what it must do to protect the innocent.
At the bandit camp, the innocent is us. :P
Rufus: for Happs coming, against charm (not sure about any caveots)
Looks about right. For one thing, Charm Person is almost toothless in Combat now anyway.
ok, so Arawn's view is for the majority (with the additional caveot that he expects the caveot to be necessary) and Castor is in favor of the caveot about charming in the case of betrayal. Rufus, do you think that charming Happs to save the mission in the event of his betrayal is an acceptable weapon against him?
It really is, yeah. If I can't get it off before combat begins, then it's pretty much a waste. And casting it won't stop him talking.
Thankfully, I do have something that will Beguiling Voice. Stops him from taking any action for 1 combat round, so roughly 6 seconds. Should be able to interrupt anything long enough to get off a spell. I hope...
If Happs is going to betray us, Charm Person is going to be about as effective at stopping him as a wet drishrag. In the first place, in that situation, he will get a +5 to his save against it; in the second, all it is going to do is set him up to choose between his 'new friend' & his old friends. So he won't attack Arawn, there is still every likelihood he will join forces with his previous band against the rest of us. The only times I have successfully used Charm Person in Pathfinder, I had to hit the target with Uncontrollable Lust first.
Like Arawn says, him using his Bloodline ability is likely to be more effective...
(shrug) Charm, bloodline, some form of silencing ability... contingency is contingency, not meant to be used except as a failsafe. If one is more effective than the other that is fine.
I dunno, man. Arawn's pretty squishy. Protecting himself from getting hit might be useful. :P
In all honesty, though, saving the spell slot for a Color Spray is a better choice. Only way it will be effective is, like I said, if I can get it off before combat starts. Before we're threatening him, before he gets that +5. Then, with an opposed Charisma check (lulz) I can probably convince him to just sit the fight out entirely. Hopefully.
A lot more unknowns than I like.
That asumes he wouldn't still get the +5 in that circumstance...
Which is not a guarantee. It also all but guarantees we are going to have to kill him afterwards because he will then know we will never trust him.
Agreed. Prepare the color spray, I say. It'll probably do us a lot more good than the charm ever would.
I've got three more 1st level spells left today. Kinda have to be some combination of those two spells. They're the only ones I know. o.o
I can all but guarantee we won't make it to their camp today. I suspect it is at least a day's travel away. Otherwise, how would they have arrived not long after dawn?
ok.... so correct me if I am mistaken, but it seems that while the details on exactly what spell/means to be used as a form of 'treachery contingency' are still in the air a bit (and can be discussed in character on the way there if need be to be honest) the consensus is that we send Rufus, Arawn, Castor and Korinne with a uncharmed Happs (probably after having both told him this is the beginnings of his proving he is willing to change and warned that treachery will be met with death) to take out the bandit camp they came from... plan on the precise details on that TBD, but again can be worked out on the way/once they see it. Meanwhile Xel and Alayi will guard the remaining four prisoners staying at Oleg's, possibly working on improving the conditions of the fortifications there, possibly having to deal with very much late Restov guards, very much having to keep Oleg and Svetlana placated and happy under not ideal circumstances.
Does anyone object to this as being the general overview of our plan going forth? If not I recommend that we begin the convincing of Oleg to sign off on the four staying and the convincing of Happs that his best option in the long run for survival (and possibly thriving, depending on what the GM, AP, and luck throw at us) is by siding with us against his old bandit buddies. Beyond having volunteered to stay there and work on the catapults (I think they are catapults anyway) Alayi will let others do the in game proposing of this idea. Think I have said enough on it by bringing it up OOC in the first place.