Tanith and Farrukh should do this protection from evil thing 24/7. Imagine the countless opportunities for hilarious buddy comedy shenanigans!
Laugh out loud funny alright...
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"Oh, hey, since we're standing right next to one another anyway, I'll just finish off this guy for you again. It's only practical."
"KORD GIVE ME PATIENCE!"
Sorry, guys, my cold turned into a sinus infection and I didn't feel up to proceeding. Having had a full night's sleep, though, I'm reasonably sure I can avoid confusing Carina's bombs for shuriken or whatever. Post will be up in a bit.
Don't rush it, KC. If you're dealing with a sickness, take care of yourself first. We can wait.
I'm no math expert, but I'm nearly certain the way you are averaging our initiatives is screwing us.
/6=14.67
/6=16.5
13
/6=13.3
4
/6=12.3
9
I can't tell you the reason why, but I know that probabilistically 6d20+16/6 > 1d20+2 almost all the time. I'm tired of going last every round :(
Maybe the reason is that My Way is rolling consistently below average on those rolls, while Your Way rolled consistently above average (except the last roll, where you were at 58 vs. a 61 average). Your sampling is somewhat flawed as a result, due to no fault of your own. A larger sampling might get a more accurate result. :P
On average, Jelani's method produces a 13.6, while mine produces a 12.5. Ultimately, the roll is as binary as ever—it's still a matter of "one side rolls good and one side rolls less good". That issue only gets fixed by having everyone roll separately. The number gap is indeed lessened by Jelani's system, but a 11 and a 12 is exactly the same as a 1 and a 20 as far as Initiative's concerned.
I already agreed to switch after the installment. Like I said, though, if you guys want to change immediately, all I ask for is a solid consensus.
Drow Encounter:
Average After (Jelani's style): Party wins 1/7 rolls.
Average Prior (current style): Party wins 1/5 rolls.
Current Encounter:
Average After: Party wins 3/10 rolls.
Average After: Party wins 4/10 rolls.
/6=13.8
/10=13 .7
/6=12.8
/10=13 .1
/6=8.6
17.6
/6=13.3
/10=14 .3
/6=11.6
/10=13 .1
/6=12.8
/10=13 .5
/6=13.3
/6=13. 5
Notice that in all but one of seven rolls, the drow win.
In all but one in five of those rolls, the drow win. 1/5 versus 1/7 for the party's track record, between the two systems.
Let's try it in the current encounter.
/6=9.8
/4=12.2
/6=12.3
/4=17.5
/6=16
/4=15.5
/6=13.3
/4=12
/6=14
/4=13.5
/6=14.6
/4=18.7
/6=12.6
/4=21
/6=10
/4=16.5
/6=9.8
/414.7
/6=12.3
/4=16.5
Okay, that's 3/10 for the party.
And the current system:
4/10 for the party.
Just tried rolling everything out. I think the main reason any sort of block initiative sucks for you guys isn't any issue with when things are averaged—it's just the fact that you guys have worse initiatives. I checked it in the combat with the drow (who had pretty varied bonuses) and in the current combat. You can see it edited in in the above post.
The thing is, even if the "averaged rolls" style produces higher results than the "averaged bonuses" style, you guys will be losing even more often with the former. Because if "averaged rolls" skews towards 10.5, the monsters, who tend to have a higher initiative, will logically win much more often than if the rolls have a chance for wider gaps that can overcome the pesky +2 you guys are stuck with. :P
Well, yeah, we have worse Initiatives...in part because any individual contribution to Initiative was basically worthless, so we all (or at least I) said "Screw it, we're going last anyway because half the party has +0 or +1 Init" and stopped bothering with it.
Yeah, that was why I proposed house rules making it easier improve the score, but those didn't seem to garner much enthusiasm. Is there a way they can be improved? What if Improved Initiative allows you to roll separately from the rest of the group?
I think switching the style might be the best bet, but if there's a way to keep initiative simple, that would be preferable.
I know I've mentioned it before but was there any specific objections to the way we've been doing initiative in SD? It rewards individual characters for investing in initiative and still keeps things super streamlined.
Yeah, that was why I proposed house rules making it easier improve the score, but those didn't seem to garner much enthusiasm. Is there a way they can be improved? What if Improved Initiative allows you to roll separately from the rest of the group?
I think switching the style might be the best bet, but if there's a way to keep initiative simple, that would be preferable.
It's more a "too little, too late" thing. We're 7 levels in of investing in Init being not worthwhile, it's too hard to change that now with the existing characters, and significantly changing styles (like going for individual Initiative) would greatly alter the flow of the game.
But SOMETHING has to change because losing half my health in the first round of every fight is getting to be obnoxious.
You mean, roll everything, then have everyone act within overall blocks that Initiative sets out? I think I'm currently considering that as the best "Idea #2" behind the current system and what Jelani's proposing (which I more-or-less regard as Idea #.5 and Idea #1).
It's more a "too little, too late" thing. We're 7 levels in of investing in Init being not worthwhile, it's too hard to change that now with the existing characters, and significantly changing styles (like going for individual Initiative) would greatly alter the flow of the game.Yeah, that was why I proposed house rules making it easier improve the score, but those didn't seem to garner much enthusiasm. Is there a way they can be improved? What if Improved Initiative allows you to roll separately from the rest of the group?
I think switching the style might be the best bet, but if there's a way to keep initiative simple, that would be preferable.
Unless someone was planning on going diviner, is there really that much about the builds that would have (or could have) changed? A few people would have grabbed Improved Initiative that didn't, a few people would have grabbed that one ioun stone that didn't. That doesn't seem anywhere close to irreversible. Improved Initiative is a single feat—you have a chance to take it every odd level, and it makes the same difference at first level as it does at twentieth.
You mean, roll everything, then have everyone act within overall blocks that Initiative sets out? I think I'm currently considering that as the best "Idea #2" behind the current system and what Jelani's proposing (which I more-or-less regard as Idea #.5 and Idea #1).
That's the system I use for Initiative in my campaigns. It's worked out quite well consistently for me.
I'm currently more concerned about the octomonsters that do a ton of damage with reach.
How many tentacles do they use to climb? It looks like they get two attacks each with a potential rend is that correct?
This is going to be a heavy resource fight. Don't hold back with those APs folks.
Unless someone was planning on going diviner, is there really that much about the builds that would have (or could have) changed? A few people would have grabbed Improved Initiative that didn't, a few people would have grabbed that one ioun stone that didn't. That doesn't seem anywhere close to irreversible. Improved Initiative is a single feat—you have a chance to take it every odd level, and it makes the same difference at first level as it does at twentieth.It's more a "too little, too late" thing. We're 7 levels in of investing in Init being not worthwhile, it's too hard to change that now with the existing characters, and significantly changing styles (like going for individual Initiative) would greatly alter the flow of the game.Yeah, that was why I proposed house rules making it easier improve the score, but those didn't seem to garner much enthusiasm. Is there a way they can be improved? What if Improved Initiative allows you to roll separately from the rest of the group?
I think switching the style might be the best bet, but if there's a way to keep initiative simple, that would be preferable.
Spending a Feat, a Trait, and a magic item for a +1-2 to the group Initiative is a hefty investment.
Plus, working in Improved Init at 1st is much easier than altering the progression of your build to work it in.
I'm currently more concerned about the octomonsters that do a ton of damage with reach.
How many tentacles do they use to climb? It looks like they get two attacks each with a potential rend is that correct?
This is going to be a heavy resource fight. Don't hold back with those APs folks.
Averting your eyes and grabbing Blind Fight will be helpful.
Speaking of APs, when was the last time we got a refill? After the Greater Doppelganger? I don't recall using 5 since then but I can't recall.
Here's the original discussion.
It's funny, because I've spent so much time using this system and getting used to it I've kinda forgotten that I was originally against it. Tanith's/Carina's currently proposed system wasn't mentioned at the time. That's partially because I hadn't seen it used before, and partially because I assume Tanith and Carina didn't think of it at the time. :P
At the time, the vote was split evenly between "averaged bonuses" and "everyone rolls and acts regardless of when their turn is". Funny enough,
Well, I'm currently running a campaign with [average bonuses] being used. I can tell you that fights tend to go in the players' favor (at least, the dice say so) if you pick that option.
So I guess some people have more luck with the system than you guys have lately.
I ultimately took "averaged bonuses" because the three in favor of it felt more strongly about it.
Yeah, regarding what I said way back then, I later opted to switch back to the 'roll initiative, break it up into blocks' approach later because I felt it worked better for me.
Unless someone was planning on going diviner, is there really that much about the builds that would have (or could have) changed? A few people would have grabbed Improved Initiative that didn't, a few people would have grabbed that one ioun stone that didn't. That doesn't seem anywhere close to irreversible. Improved Initiative is a single feat—you have a chance to take it every odd level, and it makes the same difference at first level as it does at twentieth.It's more a "too little, too late" thing. We're 7 levels in of investing in Init being not worthwhile, it's too hard to change that now with the existing characters, and significantly changing styles (like going for individual Initiative) would greatly alter the flow of the game.Yeah, that was why I proposed house rules making it easier improve the score, but those didn't seem to garner much enthusiasm. Is there a way they can be improved? What if Improved Initiative allows you to roll separately from the rest of the group?
I think switching the style might be the best bet, but if there's a way to keep initiative simple, that would be preferable.
Spending a Feat, a Trait, and a magic item for a +1-2 to the group Initiative is a hefty investment.
Plus, working in Improved Init at 1st is much easier than altering the progression of your build to work it in.
I'm currently more concerned about the octomonsters that do a ton of damage with reach.
How many tentacles do they use to climb? It looks like they get two attacks each with a potential rend is that correct?
This is going to be a heavy resource fight. Don't hold back with those APs folks.
Averting your eyes and grabbing Blind Fight will be helpful.
Speaking of APs, when was the last time we got a refill? After the Greater Doppelganger? I don't recall using 5 since then but I can't recall.
I went over your posts, and yeah, it looks like you forgot to update. You should be at full.
How many tentacles do they use to climb? It looks like they get two attacks each with a potential rend is that correct?
They are currently using their non-claw tentacles to climb. And yes, two attacks and a rend.
I guess my question is: Should we be expecting a 'surprise we've got 8 attacks each!'
Spending a Feat, a Trait, and a magic item for a +1-2 to the group Initiative is a hefty investment.
I'm not proposing you do that. I'm saying it's not that big an investment to grab one of those if we switch the way this runs now.
Yeah, regarding what I said way back then, I later opted to switch back to the 'roll initiative, break it up into blocks' approach later because I felt it worked better for me.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply you were being inconsistent—changing one's views after seeing the system in action is natural. I was just quoting it because I thought the fact that you'd been in a group that saw it as advantageous to the PCs was interesting.
Though I would like to remind those who hate the system that I was never its supporter. I was rooting for "roll-all-post-all". ;P
Oh, there's no need to apologize for that, KC.
So, perhaps after this fight, could we give the 'roll-all-post-in-blocks' approach a go?
I guess my question is: Should we be expecting a 'surprise we've 8 attacks!'
I could be cagey, but no, it's just two. I think that and the semi-surprising lack of a Grab attack was Jason Bulmnahn's equivalent of an apology. ;D
I feel like my players usually go first using my method as well, unless they are heavily outnumbered or surprised (in which case they often still go first in round 1). I think I agree with Farrukh that it's partially because I had that system established from character creation, so there was no discouragement of initiative boosting options at any point. It's also partially them having higher init builds.
Traits also help a lot. They are an easy way to get a small boost to init without blowing a precious feat. The only builds that can really afford to take improved init without it being a poor choice are full casters.
How about offering us a one time partial rebuild, where the only things we can change about our characters is things relating to initiative? Or giving us a couple of traits to play with?
there was no discouragement of initiative boosting options at any point.
11+average initiative is exactly the same as 10.5+average initiative as far as this is concerned, but I guess there's a psychological difference between seeing everyone's check made separately and then averaged versus just seeing the final result applied immediately.
Everyone except Astraden, Eben and Rodrigo had already selected traits when—wow, that's a lot of people, actually. You guys need to cut that "dying" thing out.
Anyways, I'd be okay with a rebuild (in fact, I was considering proposing that).
Well, currently Rodrigo has no traits.
Everyone except Astraden, Eben and Rodrigo had already selected traits when—wow, that's a lot of people, actually. You guys need to cut that "dying" thing out.
Hey, technically, Eben's intro to the game was due to a retiring, not a dying.
I'm fine with the initiative count changing now or later, whatever people want. I mean, in some ways it could be argued that our not going first is the only thing giving monsters a chance at all. :-)
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I know I've mentioned it before but was there any specific objections to the way we've been doing initiative in SD? It rewards individual characters for investing in initiative and still keeps things super streamlined.
In this game, it's almost always just two blocks, and the bonuses are averaged before rolling. This leads to more variance in our block's final score than averaging after rolling.
I would support something like what Jelani is proposing, but perhaps without separate blocks for each monster type. Reallyyy don't like the confusion that comes with "post when you can and we sort it out at the end of the round." It would especially suck for people like Jelani and DankeSean and I, since we frequently have long periods where we're not available to check - if we roll low, but are available right when the new round goes up, then we have to post without any clue what everyone else is doing before us. Plus (in the one game I played using this method, at least) it seems like half of all combats end with three people posting how much damage they deal to the monster, and how many status effects they apply to it, only to be invalidated by the one person who goes before them and knocks the monster out cold. S%*$'s disappointing.
I'd be willing to try the system again, though.
Well ideally it's handled with a bit of grace. In our SD game, posts are usually resolved in the order they're posted (within the 'PC block'). If you're the first to post but you're technically last in the PC initiative we just resolve things as if the whole party delayed for you to act first.
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For those who don't play in Tanith's SD game, here's how it works:
The GM rolls initiative for all PCs and monster groups.
He then sorts them into blocks: So if Tanith rolls a 3, Farrukh a 7, Astraden a 10, Random Goblin a 12, Carina a 15, Eben a 16, Rodrigo an 18, and Beholder a 20, the order goes:
Beholder
Carina/Eben/Rodrigo Block
Goblin
Tanith/Farrukh block (Astraden got disintegrated during the beholder's turn).
As you can see, this does result in a bit of "wait around", but not as much as other options.
That's fine with me, more work for you as DM but if you're cool with it I am. I'm in several games that run that way.
Since Rodrigo already put the haste up, we'll leave it with the original reading (which I assume he prefers): Those who save are hasted, while those who fail get both effects canceled out. Special Attacks that mimic spells being treated like spells shouldn't be a gamebreaker.
Oh and Eben, you were right. Tanith is wearing that kilt.
Sadly, not the best perspective to admire the male physique from, regardless.
Doors suck.
Just a heads up: I'm leaving for Vegas tomorrow morning. I'll have my phone and my laptop so I'll likely be checking in but I may get a little slacky.
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Don't go broke or get gonorrhea.
I shall work very hard to avoid those two things.
Bah, I was going to post but I saw a bunch of sense motive spoiler shenanigans. Alas, I need to run to the ice bar to drink a mojito out a stripper's navel or something. Assume Tanith follows Farrukh around to keep him in the circle and otherwise chop/punch thing.
Are you waiting on my actions too?
Don't respond to the new round yet. Yes, I see the mistake. Already fixing it.
Done. Rodrigo, it would help if you would cast fairie fire on yourself before entering rooms so I don't have to worry about that pesky invisibility nonsense. What? You can't cast that? What is this party even paying you for?
I'm going to go back to the tables to lose some more money in a bit.
I'm not sure if I like this avatar a whole lot better. I think I'll give it a week.
Are we waiting on a choker post?
I'm still trying to get a clarification on Astraden's action this round.
Gotcha.
Ouch. Carina you really should have stayed in the other room.
On the plus side Tanith's getting a lot of mileage out of that shield other.
Well, I kinda deserved it after that bad pun...
And the next time I level up, I'm putting as many points as I can into Escape Artist. Seriously.