You said you had a hard time making it work with your 25 point buy. I assume your warpriest had full bab too right? I seem to be making it work just fine with 20.
I said I had a hard time making a Monk-ish Warpriest on a 25 PB without dumping anything (<--- that's the big one. You shouldn't have trouble making a character with no dump stats on a 25 PB. Ever.). Light armor max, unarmed strikes as the main focus, high enough Dex to get TWFing as a Flurry equivalent down the line, etc. The light armor was a concession I had to make because I couldn't pump my Wis high enough to take advantage of the Monk's AC bonus.
If I'd wanted make generic fighty man with a Greatsword, or used heavy armor it would have been easier, but then I might as well play a Paladin or a Cleric/Fighter/Monk hybrid.
Tanith only has one dump stat. In the land of optimization, is a 10 a dump stat?
It's a stat you've purposefully neglected in order to make room for stats you needed, so yes. Borderline, but I think so. He can get away with it because he's wearing heavy armor, but it's still a stat you sacrificed to boost the other stats you wanted.
It was a sacrifice that wouldn't be necessary if they hadn't made the choice to require so many separate stats to benefit from the Warpriest's class abilities.
You're sitting with a 7 Int and a 10 Dex and still only get two daily uses of what's supposed to be one of the main power boosts of the class (Fervor).
Compare/contrast a Paladin, who can neglect Wis and pump Cha to get quite a few uses of Lay on Hands per day. While still benefiting from full BaB, heavy armor, and so forth, most of the other benefits that your Warpriest has (or HAD in the case of full BaB).
The class just isn't particularly well designed. It never was, but now it's even less so.
The notion that a 10 is a ‘dump stat’ is new to me. Tanith was/is going to end up in light armor. There’s a reason I passed on the plate armor from Theldrick. I’m planning on picking up the brawling enchantment. Will his AC end up being abysmal? Absolutely!
The point I was making is that your notion of effective or ‘decent’ seems to be unfair. Tanith has been perfectly viable as a 20 point character with only two uses of Fervor and an array of feats that aren’t overly focused on anything. There is room for design outside the very best and the top percentile isn’t the metric that new material should be measured against.
For the record, I think paladin is also overpowered so I wouldn’t use it as an example either.
I said I had a hard time making a Monk-ish Warpriest on a 25 PB without dumping anything (<--- that's the big one. You shouldn't have trouble making a character with no dump stats on a 25 PB. Ever.). Light armor max, unarmed strikes as the main focus, high enough Dex to get TWFing as a Flurry equivalent down the line...
Eh, TWFing is a pretty rough feat on any class not focused on Dexterity. A paladin would have just as much trouble in that regard. You're being taxed seven ability points right off the bat.
And paladins don't get bonus combat feats.
The notion that a 10 is a ‘dump stat’ is new to me. Tanith was/is going to end up in light armor. There’s a reason I passed on the plate armor from Theldrick. I’m planning on picking up the brawling enchantment. Will his AC end up being abysmal? Absolutely!
The point I was making is that your notion of effective or ‘decent’ seems to be unfair. Tanith has been perfectly viable as a 20 point character with only two uses of Fervor and an array of feats that aren’t overly focused on anything. There is room for design outside the very best and the top percentile isn’t the metric that new material should be measured against.
For the record, I think paladin is also overpowered so I wouldn’t use it as an example either.
I'll admit, my standards are pretty high for characters I make. I like to be able to cover a lot of bases, and do the thing I want to do very well.
I don't have fun when I'm not effective, and the best way to make sure I'm effective is to have a solid character with several options to draw from.
Farrukh is one of my less effective characters that I'm currently playing (for now), but he's fun enough that I don't really care (I really like the sword and board style and can't wait for it to come together in a few levels, assuming I make it that long), but I can't not care as much as you do about effectiveness. If I see an option that makes sense and is better than what I've got, I'll take it above an option that makes sense but isn't as good pretty much every time. So if I make a 10-12 Dex character there's gonna be some Heavy armor use, or Medium at least.
I also hate having characters die, so shoring up weaknesses is a good way to prevent that. Currently it's worked for me, I've yet to have a character death of my own (though if it's gonna be any campaign that finally breaks that streak, it's this one. Maybe even this particular fight we're in).
Personally I think (though hope I'm wrong) that having such a low AC will be what gets Tanith killed in the end, which seems like such a sad end for such a fun character. I'd at least consider putting him in a Mithral Breastplate.
I'm not saying Tanith's bad, but I AM saying he could probably be BETTER as a lot of other things with this change coming through. Which annoys me in a new class. If a new class isn't at least on par with other, similar options, it may as well not exist at all.
Now, we don't know all the changes for the Warpriest, but if it's exactly the same sans full BaB (extreme MAD issues, a grab bag of some good, some extraordinarily terrible Blessings, etc.), it's gonna be pretty lackluster as compared to a Cleric or Paladin (which you seem to think is overpowered for reasons I'm not sure of. If it's because it's better than the Fighter, we may have some irreconcilable differences on balance issues =)).
Well at least I feel like we're getting somewhere. =)
The difference for me is, there's a big range of what is effective. Being the absolute best at something isn't required to be viable. Imagine if that thinking applied to everything in life? It seems silly, especially in a game that's supposed to be about creativity and exploration.
Secondly, I like the fact that Tanith's got weaknesses. Having a ton of hitpoints and terrible AC is fun. DMs get someone to wail on (and hit), the other players get someone to bail out, and Tanith gets to take it all on the chin and survive (in theory). I haven't picked up a bow for a reason - it creates more space for others to shine.
There's an excerpt from Robert Fulghum's 'All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten' that I think everyone should read. Painlord turned me onto it and its relevant to lots of things in life but especially so for tabletop gaming.
Did you have a kid in your neighborhood who always hid so good, nobody could find him? We did. After a while we would give up on him and go off, leaving him to rot wherever he was. Sooner or later he would show up, all mad because we didn't keep looking for him. And we would get mad back because he wasn't playing the game the way it was supposed to be played. There's hiding and there's finding, we'd say. And he'd say it was hide-and-seek, not hide-and-give-UP, and we'd all yell about who made the rules and who cared about who, anyway, and how we wouldn't play with him anymore if he didn't get it straight and who needed him anyhow, and things like that. Hide-and-seek-and-yell. No matter what, though, the next time he would hide too good again. He's probably still hidden somewhere, for all I know.
As I write this, the neighborhood game goes on, and there is a kid under a pile of leaves in the yard just under my window. He has been there a long time now, and everybody else is found and they are about to give up on him over at the base. I considered going out to the base and telling them where he is hiding. And I thought about setting the leaves on fire to drive him out. Finally, I just yelled, "GET FOUND, KID!" out the window. And scared him so bad he probably wet his pants and started crying and ran home to tell his mother. It's real hard to know how to be helpful sometimes.
A man I know found out last year he had terminal cancer. He was a doctor. And knew about dying, and he didn't want to make his family and friends suffer through that with him. So he kept his secret. And died. Everybody said how brave he was to bear his suffering in silence and not tell everybody, and so on and so forth. But privately his family and friends said how angry they were that he didn't need them, didn't trust their strength. And it hurt that he didn't say good-bye.
He hid too well. Getting found would have kept him in the game. Hide-and-seek, grown-up style. Wanting to hide. Needing to be sought. Confused about being found. "I don't want anyone to know." "What will people think?" "I don't want to bother anyone."
Better than hide-and-seek, I like the game called Sardines. In Sardines the person who is It goes and hides, and everybody goes looking for him. When you find him, you get in with him and hide there with him. Pretty soon everybody is hiding together, all stacked in a small space like puppies in a pile. And pretty soon somebody giggles and somebody laughs and everybody gets found.
Medieval theologians even described God in hide-and-seek terms, calling him Deus Absconditus. But me, I think old God is a Sardine player. And will be found the same way everybody gets found in Sardines - by the sound of laughter of those heaped together at the end.
"Olly-olly-oxen-free." The kids out in the street are hollering the cry that says "Come on in, wherever you are. It's a new game." And so say I. To all those who have hid too good. Get found, kid! Olly-olly-oxen-free.
TLDR Version:
The kid who plays Hide and Seek and is so good that nobody ever finds him is missing the point. Half the fun of the game is being found. Building characters at the Nth degree of optimization that are designed to be one-man armies is making yourself unfindable. You're missing half the fun of the game.
Yes, Tanith could be more effective. No, I don't care. Yes, the warpriest could be more streamlined for optimization.
Should it be? I don't think so.
(If you want to hear my thoughts on Paladins, I'd be happy to share them. It has nothing to do with fighters. =P)
Well the stuff that nailed Tanith in the Hextorian Temple was all unavoidable. I think there was at least one crit in there.
For academic purposes, I looked up the fight in the temple.
Flail: 1d20 + 8 + 1 + 1 ⇒ (16) + 8 + 1 + 1 = 26
Longbows: 1d20 + 4 + 1 ⇒ (20) + 4 + 1 = 25
Crit?: 1d20 + 4 + 1 ⇒ (15) + 4 + 1 = 20
Attack: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (19) + 6 = 25
Crit?: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (19) + 6 = 25
None of which was a consequence of insufficient optimization. =P
It's not a matter of being the best/so good nothing can touch you, it's a matter of being good at what you're meant to do, and still having some extra stuff to do when that's not viable.
Optimization, contrary to popular belief, is not super specializing or making yourself the best ever, it's about picking something, anything, and setting about making yourself good at that, preferably without leaving any gaping holes elsewhere that you can help.
I'll take a pair of my characters as examples.
On the one hand, we have Sun Xiao, in his current incarnation (can't keep the guy in a game, sadly, love the character, but when I do bring him back out of the recycle bin I've had extra time to refine him at least).
The concept? A consummate martial artist. He fuses fighting styles together into a more coherent whole. Also he has wings because I had some spare Feats and thought it'd be cool.
He's a fun character. He's fun to roleplay, but he's also very fun to PLAY.
He's good at what he does: Melee range ass whoopin', but he also contributes a lot more than that to the group (he makes an excellent scout, unlocks stuff fairly well, and he's a human Lie Detector). It gives me something to do in every facet of the game.
Is he min-maxed? No. But is he OPTIMIZED? YES.
He's fun because I can use him in a wide variety of scenarios and find him a place to excel in each one. Even with his low Cha he contributes in social scenarios ("He's lying through his teeth. She's under some kind of compulsion. They're all hiding something.").
That's the kind of character I like to have, and consider to be what you strive for in optimization. He doesn't outshine everyone, but he isn't outshone BY anyone in every scenario either. His abilities all supplement and complement each other, which is honestly what you'd expect from a real life person who does dangerous shit like fight Daemons for a living.
On the other hand, we have one of my not so effective characters. At least on a day to day basis. He's sorta indispensable to the group in the grand scheme since he supplies the bulk of our armies.
I made the mistake here of NOT optimizing. I took a concept (Necromancer) and carried it to its logical conclusion: He does Necromancy. Necromancy is pretty much all he does, since he's sunk 5 whole levels in a PrC that makes him a boss Necromancer.
It is an absolute chore playing him in many cases when I can't bring my undead to bear. Partially because every god damned thing we fight almost is immune or resistant to necromantic magic, but if he were better optimized he'd have better answers to those sorts of threats. Sitting around with my thumb up my ass for the majority of a 2 hour combat is NOT FUN. If things don't change once I can make JuJu zombies (literally the whole reason I made this character, not realizing I'd need to wait until 13th for it with this build) I'm probably going to scrap him and make a Druid or something because he's just not FUN.
And I think Tanith might be headed down that road. Not getting something as basic as a bow (or at least some javelins, Kord likes the Olympics, I'm sure) because you don't want to outshine someone is purposefully sabotaging yourself for a concept when you really don't have to.
I don't want to tell you how to play the guy, I really don't. I like how you've played him so far. He's by far the most likeable character we have here, though I've come to like Zalamandra a lot in this short time and wouldn't be super disappointed if it was decided that she'd stay instead of Carina.
But, I'd say give some thought to giving some thought about shoring up some of the holes in his build. Purposefully keeping your AC low for the image of getting thwacked in the jaw and keeping standing is great, but when we start fighting things that hit you on a 2 you might start to regret it. There are only so many hits to the jaw Tanith can take in a short period, you know?
But don't get me wrong, you don't need to go balls out to be effective. Going too hard gets boring after a while. I made THAT mistake with Crokus. I built him starting at level 10, having never played at that level before. I set out to make him a killing machine.
Since about level 12, we have not met a creature Crokus hasn't been able to kill in one round given that he can full attack. Which is often, since he has Pounce. Granted, I'm not FULLY to blame here. The entire rest of the party (bar Zix, who is just as ridiculous in his own way) are casters who do almost nothing but buff Zix and I to the gills. Haste and Air Walk make Charging almost never not an option.
There are also very few things that can harm him when he's Raging. And they rarely get a second shot.
It's gotten quite dull, yes. But that's because either extreme is bad. Hyper optimized vs the opposite.
Anywho I think I'm done writing my thesis on the virtues of optimization now. =p
The notion that a 10 is a ‘dump stat’ is new to me. Tanith was/is going to end up in light armor. There’s a reason I passed on the plate armor from Theldrick. I’m planning on picking up the brawling enchantment. Will his AC end up being abysmal? Absolutely!
The point I was making is that your notion of effective or ‘decent’ seems to be unfair. Tanith has been perfectly viable as a 20 point character with only two uses of Fervor and an array of feats that aren’t overly focused on anything. There is room for design outside the very best and the top percentile isn’t the metric that new material should be measured against.
For the record, I think paladin is also overpowered so I wouldn’t use it as an example either.
Tanith works because he has a 19 strength and uses melee weapons. That's optimization. I don't want to get bogged down in a detailed optimization argument, but I will say that any melee character with 18+ strength is one of the most effective builds in the game (regardless of class) until somewhere between 5th and 10th level where they start falling behind. They remain at least somewhat effective until probably the introduction of 4th or 5th level spells into play.
That's because the game is usually designed to be played by 4 ppl with 15 point buys. To get an 18 requires at least 10 of those points (or 66.6% of them). Pick up a two handed weapon (not even a simple one...like a longspear or something) and you do an average damage of 10.5 right out the gate. Pick up Power Attack as 99% of melee builds do and that goes up to 13.5. That's one or two hit kills on everything up to CR 3 and then 2 or 3 hit kills up to CR 4. Give him a good martial weapon like a greatsword and it gets worse.
For me, it's not overpowered until one character could take out the rest of their party easily. Or is virtually invincible.
The most powerful (and boring) character I've ever played was probably this chick for an epic game. It was 25th level. Lasted about a day until the GM realized what he'd bitten off. Haven't played in an epic game since (or anything above 12th level for that matter), because they're essentially impossible to run.
The main reason I decided to play Carina as an alchemist (aside from never having played one before and wanting to try the class out) is that I felt the alchemist is more balanced than a sorcerer or wizard at higher levels: her formula list gets a lot of good spells, but not game-breakingly powerful ones that can be used in tandem with each other (scry-and-die tactics comes to mind), a constant source of damage output that she needs to ration (yay bombs!), and a self-buff that comes with a price when you use it.
With that in mind, I'd prefer it if Carina came back after she's reincarnated: playing a sorcerer or wizard at high levels tends to get boring if you pick the best spells. That's not to say Zalamandra can't be a recurring character. :)
Rynjin, I appreciate your time but I don’t think we’re going to see eye to eye any time soon. All the characters and moments you see as accomplishments, I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near – even your ‘unoptimized’ necromancer. To each his own. I just ask that you not poo-poo mechanics others might enjoy just because ‘other stuff is better’. Fun should figure into the equation somewhere and, for some folks, effectiveness isn’t the only measure of fun.
DC, you should play whoever you want to play.
But I liked Carina better. =P
By the way, Tanith, I didn't notice this at the time, but the "flying elbow drop" was more of a "jump off and run and smack with elbow". Unless you start putting lots of ranks in Acrobatics, you can't clear twenty-five feet in one jump. :P
In the future, I'd probably require an Acrobatics check to let somebody fall and charge, but I was distracted at the time and there's no real point retconning. it.
Heh, gotcha. Considering there was no mechanical effect I figured you wouldn't mind some artistic license.
The grimlocks should be more considerate and build their next temple in a wrestling ring.
I might need to make a trip outside for more crossbow ammo after this.
I'm trying to conserve what bolts I have left.
Yeah, you guys will be leveling up after this fight.
Sweet.
Aaaand level-up.
Eben feels all shiny & new.
Level 5 class: Bard
BAB increase: None!
Saving throw increases: none!
Bardic Performance: +2 rounds per day
disappearing act now affects 2 creatures per use
New ability gained: Quick change
spells per day: + 1 1st, +1 2nd
spells known: +1 2nd cat's grace
Favored class bonus: + 1 1st level spell known featherstep
hit points: +7
Feat: Rapid Shot
Skills: +1 Escape Artist, +1 Perception, +1 Perform (act), +1 Perform (dance), +1 Perform (oratory), +1 Sleight of Hand, +1 Use Magic Device
+1 BaB, +10 HP, Favored Target is now +2 (and I can have two active at once), +1 to all those skills I've been adding to, Two-Weapon Fighting as a Feat.
Well, since sleep is overrated anyway...
Level Up Summary
HP Gained: 4
Bloodline Spell Gained: Invisibility (yay!)
Skill Points Gained: 5
-->+1 Bluff
-->+1 Knowledge (Arcana)
-->+1 Spellcraft
-->+1 Diplomacy
-->+1 Knowledge (Planes)
Favoured Class Bonus: New Spell: Magic Weapon
New 2nd Level Spell: Currently thinking about it
New Feat: Extend Spell
Level Up Summary
HP Gained: 5
Favoured Class Bonus: +1 Skill Point
Skill Points Gained: 7
-->+1 Diplomacy
-->+1 Spellcraft
-->+1 Knowledge (Arcana)
-->+1 Craft (Alchemy)
-->+1 Heal
-->+1 Perception
-->+1 Knowledge (Nature)
-->+1 Knowledge (Nobility)
New Feat: Extra Discovery
New Discovery: Precise Bombs
New Alchemist Extract: Lesser Restoration
+1d6 to Bomb Damage
Bonus Feat: Skill Focus (Heal)
New Class Feature: Any use of the Heal skill that has a risk of harming the patient (such as extracting a barb) only deals the minimum damage when performed by a chirurgeon.
Hrm.
Endurance or Fortified Armor Training?
Anyone have any suggestions for a 2nd-level spell to take?
Hideous Laughter is a nice 2nd level save-or-lose.
I second scorching ray. Create pit is also a great crowd control spell that doesn't mess up the battlefield as much as web.
I've settled on scorching ray for my 2nd-level spell.
Level 5 – Warpriest 4
+1 BAB
+10 HP : 5 [d8 HD] + 3 [con] + 1 [toughness] + 1 [favored class]
+1 Fort/Will
Feat: Endurance
Sacred Weapon 4 rounds/day
Channel Energy
+2 Skill Points (Acrobatics and Intimidate)
+ 2nd level spells (2/day)
Level Up!
Taking a level of fighter (unbreakable).
+8 HP
+1 BAB
+2 fort
Tough as Nails
+3 skill points (perception, swim, ride)
5th level feat:Improved sunder
Spiny
+8 HP
+1 rank escape artist
+1 feat (Narrow Frame)
Hrm.
Endurance or Fortified Armor Training?
Plan on taking Die Hard? If so, Endurance. If not, pretty much anything but Endurance.
So, new info on the Warpriest in case someone's not following the thread.
-They are no longer Charisma dependent (in Jason's words, the word Charisma appears 0 times in the class now).
-They can use their Warpriest level to qualify for Combat feats.
Though not sure if this is good news or bad for Tabith, since he won't be getting a benefit from that 13 in Cha now.
Hrm. I like Charisma. =/
By Combat feats I assume you mean fighter feats?
Hmm... in light of that...
Tanith, does the wrestler class you picked have any class features that rely on Charisma to be effective?
Though not sure if this is good news or bad for Tanith, since he won't be getting a benefit from that 13 in Cha now.
I'm not entirely sure that's accurate--he's gotten mileage out of Diplomacy & Intimidate with his 13 CHA.
Naw. Wrestler's class features are all strength and constitution-based.
So no whipping up the crowd into a frenzy with your mic skills, then?
Heh. Well they have charisma-based skills on their class list but all their class features are strength or constitution based. The save DCs on their wrestling tricks are strength-based. Their ki pool is constitution-based.
One of my favorite tricks (flavor-wise) is Face/Heel Turn. It lets you emulate the opposite alignment for purposes of stuff.
Heavyweight (which is what Tanith is) gets a class feature that gives you a free intimidate check against all nearby opponents when you use a trick with the slam keyword.
KC, are you familiar with the Deific Obedience/Celestial Obedience feats?
Would you be up for writing one for Kord? I’d suggest picking out one of the pre-written ones but they’re all pretty deity-specific.
Maybe. Where are the Obediences/Boons?
Hrm. I like Charisma. =/
By Combat feats I assume you mean fighter feats?
He means combat feats
I wonder... will Cuetzpalli's spear come in at the same time Carina is ready to come back?
Unbeknownst to us all, Carina is actually slated to be reincarnated as Cuetzpalli's new spear.
I'm not okay with this.
I'll have to go back and check what exact day Cuetzpalli ordered his spear on, but it will probably be before Carina's return.
Alrighty then.
So, time for another "What to sell?" discussion?
I wasn't planning one of those until we were finished with the temple/book.
Do you think it's worth zeroing out the sheet now?