It is, it is, a glorious thing...

Game Master Arythain

To reduce complications, you can assume that your conversations are kept secret from the others unless you explicitly share information with them.

Thanks! Otherwise, if I were these guys, I'd be whistling nonchalantly as I walk away from the crazy people.

No kidding. And this is primarily only because we are in a transition period and I want to get us going - you should not get used to bystanders being oblivious to you, your actions, and your words in the future. If you are trying to keep something secret, you'll want to state that BEFORE the action (and of course, make any relevant rolls). ;)

So, are we going to the inn? Dante says he is following his companions to the inn, but neither of his companions seem to have indicated that is where they are going. Please remember to directly state your intentions and actions for the GM! Often it is helpful for me if you just include your actions (if any) in OOC text at the bottom of a post, like so:

If nobody objects, head to the inn.

Well, Luca is (nervously) ready to go there. XD

Yes, sorry.

Ah! I keep forgetting that. Yes, Innward bound.

Is it safe to assume that Tyrus is probably holding the money given by Norren? Or would you guys split it up and carry even amounts?

I think we split it up in the treasure. Makes it harder to pickpocket us, if nothing else. post #972 in disucssion was my proposed split.

Gonna be posting in an hour or so, but I wanted to mention that if the players prefer we can do "around-the-town" stuff, that is the sort of errands of buying and selling and finding locations, in a quicker way. You guys would just list off the things you intend to do and I'll tell you how it goes. Oftentimes these will be routine, though every now and again complications will arise and we'll slow down into a more detailed pace.

Alternatively, we can stick to the more languid and RP-centric manner we started out in.

What is the security like - I see Tyrus standing outside holding the valuables unless pretty amazing.

Dot point list of errands might be better.

Tyrus has said what he wants. Will dot point.

Battery dying. Will try to post when I can get it charged. Sorry for the brevity.

Today I learned that apparently Fluffy retains dirt in between summonings... and I will go ahead and say that you were alone when you summoned it, Luca. The section of the bathhouse that you were in is gender-segregated, but not necessarily private. ;)

Heh heh, no worries Tyrus. And as for security, let's say that Obanese bathhouses have cubicles and alcoves and stuff near the baths themselves, so that you can generally keep your belongings in sight at all times. The issue of security is twofold - rich people rarely use the public bathhouses (there are more exclusive facilities for those with money) and the public ones tend to have a large amount of people in them during the day. However, as a native Obanese you would be aware that theft is generally not a problem in these places.

Some prices:

Healer's Kit: (Item as normal Pathfinder description) - 10 sp

Alchemy Tools:
Normal Alchemy Lab: A simple set of gear, negates the need for improvised tools but provides no bonus of its own. The gear is not easily portable - 15 sp
Portable Alchemy Tools: A full set of alchemy gear that can be packed up and moved without too much trouble. However, crafting and skill check times are doubled - 25 sp

Ah, Tyrus has the basic alchemical equipment already. I was thinking of the bonus granting lab here and the like.

Luca might think this is a good opportunity to sell the Mensha.
Also, Mercy: How much for glassblowing and calligraphy tools?

Actually, given its value, she's thinking of it as an excellent emergency source of funds for the group. Calligraphy tools, on the other hand, could be nice... she's at +3 right now because of the penalty for lack of tools. With tools, she could jump up to +5, while Masterwork tools would bring her to +7. If she's doing crafting to earn money, that would be ~8.5 SP a week (if we're converting prices, I think MW tools would be 55 SP - so, six and a half weeks to pay off by working, but combined with anyone else practicing a trade, that's probably enough to ensure all of our characters could live by renting rooms and whatnot).

That is, if we were going to use the standard rules for practising trades and such. And for some trades, we could! But calligraphy, I think, is rather different. The good side is that the basic tools of the trade probably don't cost much - I'll say 5 silver pieces. The other side of the equation, though, is that you can't just do calligraphy on the street for cash. You need to find an employer. Fortunately, the pay for scribes and calligraphers is pretty good - when they can find work.

Glassblowing is not an activity that can be done on the go. It needs a full-on shop setup (I let you skate by easy in the prequel campaign, as I mentioned). Options might be befriending a local crafter and 'renting' his equipment when you need to use it, or at some point you guys might want to think about setting up a home base so you can have more permanent arrangements.

And as for masterwork alchemy apparatus, again they wouldn't be portable. Portable Masterwork tools are rather far out of your price range at the moment. I'll look up/figure out the prices if you wish, but you won't be able to afford them for awhile.

Dante: did you mean to drop 5sp? That's about half a week's lodging cost.
Mercy: is renting 'time' at a shop a possibility, or do alchemists only let themselves and employees use the tools? That's fine, by the way, I can imagine "buying tools and shop" to be a major capital investment between earning serious money and just getting paid a daily wage.

Hmmm - this is becoming a major undertaking.
6sp for calligraphy isn't that much. Probably worth getting anyway.
In theory Tyrus can do some basic alchemical work now, if he can find someone to buy the products. I guess the same would be true of Luca.
There's no way we can afford fancy clothes - well, if we pooled out money we could buy one set - but we might be able to buy fine clothes, especially if we can get a bulk discount and/or re-use the less worn parts of what we have now.

So, ooc, do people want to try selling spells? Dante, I know you said you want to go to Aldunvar - do you have a plan from that point on?

At this stage Mercy is sandboxing us. Sandboxes require pro-active players. I'm happy to get some cash, make some contacts, maybe set up a business. I'm sure at some point we'll hear about some adventures/missions/raids we could do if we want to.

Tyrus' goals are (A) find a cure and (B) get power. Mixed up in that now are (?) take care of Luca. Most of that can probably be started in any city.

I guessed as to what might be the cost of a bath. Not used to the lowered price in things though. One silver might be enough. Also Dante isn't too keen to stay at all so he would not be in favor of setting up a business. Then again I think that is thinking too far ahead. Selling the spell would probably give us enough to live off of for a while and easily get us to Aldunvar. Its also the capital and far more lucrative in any venture I would think. So this is a reprieve for the real journey at most.

Renting a shop is certainly possible. It will probably take either befriending the shop owner or a lot of money or some mixture of both. And yeah: part and parcel of making money a little harder to come by for players is making lucrative industry tougher to get into. Still totally possible! But it'll take work. Money-making endeavors for the traveling adventurer usually fall under different categories.

And yes, you're in the sandbox. Sometimes things will fall into your lap, but you'll have more luck going out and looking for them.

Right now? Sell these spells. Get some money. Get through this scenario and see what it gets us. One thing at a time.

It's probably detrimental to view things as "scenarios" now. The beginning, getting on and off the island, was scenario. Now, it's all open-ended. It's easy enough for you guys to embark on discrete scenarios of your own making, or if you are given a job/quest/adventure that has a clear beginning and ending, but those markers will be entirely arbitrary.

alright, so how much to get some nicer clothes for Dante? Looks like there is a range. the lower in that range we can go the better!
The more I think about it, the more I think letting Tyrus stay in the background might be a good idea... still, how much for Tyrus as well?

Prices for general ranges of clothing can be found in the "Buying and Selling" document via the campaign tab. And of course, it is always possible to haggle when buying anything - especially when buying multiples. :)

To be viewed as anything more than a bumpkin at first look (by the higher-ups in society) you would need to be dressed in Fine clothing, which runs 10-20sp per set. Exactly where in that range and how much discount you might get for buying more than one set at a time would be down to the shop you go to and your haggling skills.

Alright - group consensus. Do we need them? How many do we need?
If yes, we need to run a haggling scene, I think.

There is a certain value to having 'nice' clothes. However, I think it might be best to focus on establishing ourselves at the same time - basically, at least spending long enough selling things to recoup the cost of the clothing. Given our overall talents, I do think we might lean towards running a magic shop of some kind, and Tyrus, at least, should probably look the part.

I think Dante would chafe at having to dress fancy again. Adventurer's outfit is comfortable and functional. And now it is clean and repaired. That's enough, especially if is going to look like a guard or courier.

I question whether the capital is much bigger than Gemny.
@Mercy - do we have an idea of the relative sizes?

Okay - so Dante goes to check out this shop? And maybe to look at how much to hire a shopfront - and how long we'd have to do it for?

Dante - if you'd prefer a more traditional adventure, we could send you off to the taverns to gather information on potential missions nearby. Certainly most traditional adventures are much higher returns (though with higher risk).

They're going to have to tailor clothes for Tyrus. At the moment he's in adventurer gear. I think it'd make sense to get Fine Clothes. Is someone with haggling knowledge prepared to come and help?

I must admit I actually like the idea of running a 'magic shop' long term. We've got Alchemy, Calligraphy, heal and Scribe Scroll already. Dante seems like he'd make a pretty good salesman. I'd be thinking we could do a reasonable job. There's even systems for it (in Core, Unchained and Ultimate Campaign) - though Mercy probably wants to run his own. I'd expect we'd do a lot more urban missions if we went this route, be trying to buy lore and knowledge, and eventually working up to a place in high society. In fact, given this place has no university, that could well become a goal for Tyrus pretty easily.

For buying "easy" things like clothing, food, shelter, etc, you can just give me some ooc direction like the following:

Look around for cheapest shop selling "fine" clothing, buy one set for each character. Haggling:

-and then roll your diplomacy check. For more complicated transactions it'll be better to roll play it (like renting a shopkeeper's equipment and space) but I don't want to drag out everything.

As for Gemny vs. Aldunvar: basically it's "city" vs. "major city." It is substantially larger, yes, but make no mistake that Gemny is very much a city. You may be able to find things in Aldunvar that you wouldn't find in Gemny, but mostly it's a matter of finding the same things, just bigger, better, and more expensive. You'd be able to find people of still higher level, higher fame, higher importance.

Running a shop: I would peruse existing rulesets, but by now I'm sure it's no surprise that I would likely make some alterations. Can't know for sure until I read what's out there, though. I will mention that a good route towards owning such a shop would be first working as "procurers" for existing shops: going out and acquiring items of interest. That would also lend itself well to the travelling adventurer role if you guys want to do some of that first. Also, assuming you guys DO end up with your own establishment, you can always hire NPCs to mind the shop for you when you guys feel like going on some quest or another.

That's what downtime rules are for. What is the manservant's reaction?

If you mean Zandrias' manserverant: None. He walked away once you guys exchanged words. He also handed back the messages you gave him.

Oh. Odd.

Day to day is usually downtime rules, but setting up and growing a business goes beyond a bunch of profession rolls.

What would you like to do?

Staying one place sounds boring. I would rather explore this new realm.

Okay.
So - we could join a merc company.
We could combine the ideas and set up a travelling [s]snake oil[/b] doctor's show.
We could join a ship's crew.
We could look for interesting ruins etc nearby and go explore.
Thoughts?
Luca? What are you after?

Luca's in-character goal is to somehow lose her powers - which, out-of-character, I know would be a problem. XD My long-term goal is for her to grow used to them and eventually start to take control as she gains more self-confidence. Aside from that, I'm fine with pretty much anything - though I do like the idea of exploring the world we have.

A mercenary company could be interesting, at least - maybe join a caravan going to an interesting destination and see how we like it? If not, well, we'll be easily positioned to do something else once we're done. ^^

Looking to get back on a boat so soon, eh Tyrus?

Also, and this is just a general note: If at any point you feel that your characters' goals have been met and that it would be sensible for them, in-character, to "retire" from the adventuring life and settle down, you can do that. You'd just roll up a new character and we'd have them join the group somehow.

I don't necessarily foresee any of you doing that, but I wanted to mention it.

Wait, is this "antiques dealer in the Whitestone district", or a different shop?

Yes. Same guy. Antiques, oddities, historical bits, alchemy, magic - big shop. :)

I think if we're going to get the best price, we need the clothes - Tyrus would defer to Dante (as the negotiator).
Dante, do you want to wait, or push on?

Alright folks, it seems we have something of a failure to launch in the more open-world format, and that's understandable. Do you guys want to introduce a bit more structure back into things? Be sent on/offered a quest so that you have a more clear objective to move towards? We can do that quickly with Mr. Naswel, after all. Magic shop owners are naturals at sending adventurers on missions!

As Tyrus has pointed out, a true open-world setting requires a ton of direction and initiative from the players, and quite frankly not everybody wants or enjoys that kind of experience. Option paralysis can set in, along with other issues.

I want to know what we can do to get the experience cooking again. If you have any suggestions for what you'd prefer or what you're looking for, please sound off!

I definitely prefer some sort of structure. Total sandboxes are something I'm generally not too good at - but if you don't want to do one specific thing, you could provide a fairly obvious array of options instead.

For example, um...

"After a week in town, you've made some good headway in understanding the locals and hearing about their concerns. The friend of one of the local business owners is looking to retire and pass his shop on to some decent people, but wants to test them first and has asked his friend to help - accomplishing [Goal] could certainly get you in the doorway for business. There are also rumors of some kind of [Magical Event] happening nearby, and the city's leaders have offered [Reward] for anyone who can bring back details on what's going on. There may be other things to do in a larger city, and [Caravan] is heading that way..."

This gives a semi-sandbox feel, while still providing some fairly obvious direction for the players. It's worked fairly well for me in the games I've run. ^^

I've found one big thing is to make sure everyone has a compatible goal. Kingmaker is good for this, because everyone has the "make a kingdom" goal, though they may argue about details.

I think there is discussion to have about what we (the players) want for our characters.

I think a short term quest so we can talk about those goals and still keep playing is a great idea. I've noticed that when gameplay posting drops off, games die, even if discussion is thriving.

Yeah, even Kingmaker isn't this sandboxy. I think the issue is we don't have any pulls or quests except for mine to Aldunvar but I really haven't pushed that and no one knows why. Waiting for a good moment.

Also, like Tryus said sort of, none of us really has the motivation to do anything. We all seem to have a home we are just happy to be away from so there is nothing we really want to do except not go back...yet.

Unless one of these meetings leads to a quest pull I don't see the point in playing them all out if all we are doing is getting some spending money to leave.

What I want my character to do is become strong enough to go home and set things right. I want him to slowly learn his family's noble history from the sword and work to change things back to the way they were. But that is end game. He needs to get stronger, to do right, and make a name for himself so that they can do nothing to stop his return.

Trust me, I make sandbox characters. Second line of my character after stats is

I’m interested in the whole path of power. Setting up as a ruler. Building constructs. Raising armies…

...But I've killed sandbox games before by pushing the PC's goals too hard, so I'm trying to ease off right now.

Dante, it sounds like you might also be interested in raising an army, or the ability to set up your own academy. I'm going to delve a little into your backstory after this...

Potentially, given all our backstories seem to portray pretty much every other powerful NPC as some sort of Game of Thrones level [Redacted], we could agree to found a Utopia - a bit like the Pirate Island, but with less slavery.

Tyrus is also looking for hidden knowledge. I think Luca might be as well. Archaeologist/Tomb Robber probably works well as a party goal. What we do with that knowledge might wait until higher levels.

I wouldn't say you don't have any other "pulls." But the objectives are very much more vague: right now, your objective seems to be "get some more money" and you're going about it just fine. I assumed posting was falling off because you as players were having trouble seeing beyond that short-term objective.

One element I should probably have made more clear is (at least under the previous paradigm, which we may now be abandoning) that quests and stuff aren't always going to fall into your lap. If you're looking for jobs, quests, etc, it is wise to ask about them. That forms a short-term objective on its own. Learning about your surroundings and the local news is a specific action (even if it might takes a few days).

Tyrus's drive was what I was hoping would pull us through the early part, as he did seem to have a more clear idea of what his character wanted to get done - find wizards, seek knowledge, etc. I'm sad to learn that you, Tyrus, though this was a detriment, though I understand why. The way I thought it might work out was that your character would become the de facto leader and objective setter for a time, at least until your travels brought you near to Aldunvar and Dante's objectives are nearby and start to dominate. But all of that requires a lot of the right attitude from players as well as, I now realize, a LOT of communication - and our format, plus the time difference for Tyrus, makes that more difficult.

But no problem. All of these difficulties can be overcome. I'm going to try and tighten things down again for a time - soon Mr. Naswel will offer you a task that hopefully you'll find attractive as a group.

Even though we'll be going with more structure for awhile, always remember that you can decide to pursue your own objectives again at any time. I just want to give you guys enough direction so our game doesn't fall apart from lack of focus.

@Mercy: If you want me to pull out the brakes, I will. I got burned on some other games, and It left me leery.

Tyrus doesn't really have much interest in 'doing good'. He spent all his life doing 'the right thing' and it got him nowhere except dying alone. So far his pursuit of power has gotten him friends, respect, and a chance at life.

That's not to say he won't do good. He'll kill a monster if he can, for instance.

Also, while he may not be good, he is nice.

Okay - how's 'power' for a goal?
Luca: Power to control Fluffy, rather than be controlled.
Dante: Power to go home and set things right.
Tyrus: Power to defy the death and madness that awaits him.
Then we've got the goal of finding places of power and plundering them (getting magic items and xp). Does cleave a little closer to 'murderhobo' than I'm used to, but we don't need to kill anything moral.

As far as I'm concerned I want you to go whole hog, and only bother letting up if the other players want a bit more initiative over the situation. It's not like we can't adjust as we go!

Side note: Luca will have getting more power as her goal a few levels from now. XD Right now, she's still trying to get rid of it. Once she accepts that it's not going to go away - and will only continue getting stronger - she'll be looking to take control (for self-preservation, if nothing else).

"Goal: Recover life direction from otherdimensional god-like monstrosity."

Then write a self-help book, I guess.