For clarification, since Nigel and Mort have specified conflicting information: Nigel says I have to wait to get the masterwork rock crystal morningstar enchanted to +1, Mort seems to say that I can use upgrade dust. Which is correct?
Regarding crafting: if my cohort uses craft wondrous item, does he need an alchemical lab? I was specifically referring to that feat, as my intent was to get it to reduce our reliance on Veld.
Lastly, Nigel, it seems likely you missed it, but I indicated that I would like to order something from Veld potentially. Did you miss it? The cost of items made.m by her is I’ll cost, right?
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To answer:
When the GM refers to custom rules, always go with what they say. Previously, 'Upgrade Dust' had only been used to upgrade existing magical items, not create new ones, so I was not aware that Mort was okay with that. Lesson learned!
Re: crafting, usually, you don't need a lab, but if he asks, he can use mine.
Re: Veld crafting, sure, but she is in the middle of crafting something for me that will take another 10 days to complete, so it will be a while before she can start anything else.
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Getting our cohorts to craft stuff for us is possible, but it will take a long time to get anything done - as Mort noted, if we are adventuring, they can get 200gp of a magic item done per day, which means that something like, say, a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 would take 20 days to make, whilst a +4 Headband would take 80 days to make...
Realistically, we are probably better off aiming for access to Teleport, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift and/or Shadow Walk, so we can go shopping in big metropolises...
Thank you for responding!
Then I wonder if there is anyone in Longshadow who can craft for me. Do you intend to have Veld continuously crafting for you?
It doesn’t seem worth it for the cohort to get the feat.
For reference, I am tentatively planning on helping with the transportation problem by picking up a menhir druid who can do transport via plants at 9, a few times per day. That would take some burden away from Robert, and is apparently unlimited range.
I need the prepared spells as my character’s WBL is a little low, looking at my starting estimate. I need swappable buffs. As I predicted at the beginning, there’s a pretty limited amount of stuff that we “found” that I can use, so I’m paying full price for everything. Considering Fenton and I are serving in the role Ratel used to serve, I’m trying to maximize the cohort to improve defenses and offenses (which druid matches best with Assuming I want to avoid duplicate roles from the other cohorts).
Longshadow does not have any specific items so I will determine what there is.
-> wand of entangle
-> Scroll of inflict moderate wounds
-> wand of corrosive touch
-> scroll of bullet shield
-> Potion of ant haul
-> Wand of Touch of the Sea
-> +1 small composite longbow (+2 str)
-> Potion of darkvision
-> Potion of Owl's wisdom
-> +1 leather armor
-> Rod of Reach
-> Metamagic Rod (Intensified)
-> Scroll of Wreath of Blades
-> Greater Flaring metamagic rod.
The issue is that there is no reason that the people in Longshadow would craft for you, RP wise. If you wanted some crafting, then during the level ups of the refugees, or while assigning the level ups, you could have put Craft wondrous on the casty types.
Use masterwork transformation to change your rock crystal morningstar to masterwork status, then apply upgrade dust on it to create new magic item. And done.
Ahh, but it is already masterwork. They gave me a masterwork one as a gift, remember? I’ve been using it as masterwork for months, and when enchanted with greater magic weapon, I only added +1 to attack (since masterwork to +2 is a net of +1 enhancement bonus.
At least I think I did for all the posts!
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Well, to be fair, we *did* apply crafting feats to the NPCs, when we retrained / levelled-up (as best we could); I mean, all the newly-minted Druids (effectively) have Brew Potion, at the very least...
Aubrin was never levelled-up.
Rhyna has Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion (but was restricted to the Adept list until she finished retraining to Druid 4 on Day 42, which reduced her usefulness in terms of crafting, whilst we were around).
Edran doesn't have Spellcraft, and was needed for other things.
Veld has Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and Craft Wand.
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To answer Gren's question, sure, you can get Veld to do some crafting for you, as her next project.
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I will reiterate that my Cohort will be acting as a force multiplier - she will (when activating her Rage Song) be granting everyone +4 Strength, +4 Con, +4 Morale to Will saves, -1 AC, +4 Natural Armor, and the option to take an additional -4 penalty to AC for a +4 bonus on attack rolls (if they so wish), as well as two claw attacks.
She will also be incredibly useful in this next section, as she will make it easy for us to cover a *lot* of ground, extremely quickly (basically, 8 miles per hour, so 64 miles per day, reduced to 48 miles per day due to terrain modifiers, assuming we all have mounts).
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@Robert and Gren: Speaking of which, I strongly recommend that your cohorts buy mounts as part of their starting equipment, so that they can keep up; I have already bought combat-trained Bison for myself, Father Noelan, and Robert.
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@Gren: If it helps, from level 10, I will be able to take more of the load off you, in terms of filling Ratel's shoes - since that is when I first become a pouncing, target-tripping nightmare :-)
Ah k, I forgot that it was already masterwork, but if its already masterwork, then enchant it as per normal. Nigel, I remember in Strange Aeons I already allowed you to upgrade piecemeal. So it wasn't as if it wasn't allowed before.
I also do not wish to move plot since Robert is off to Tekko all weekend and Grenwold hasn't finished setting up his cohort yet, AND I'm busy on weekends.
Getting our cohorts to craft stuff for us is possible, but it will take a long time to get anything done - as Mort noted, if we are adventuring, they can get 200gp of a magic item done per day, which means that something like, say, a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 would take 20 days to make, whilst a +4 Headband would take 80 days to make...
Realistically, we are probably better off aiming for access to Teleport, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift and/or Shadow Walk, so we can go shopping in big metropolises...
I asked Mort for a clarification in a PM, but you might already know the answer. She mentioned the ring of sustenance in her rules as a way to help with crafting times - do you know if this still an option?
Aye, do you think that'd be good for us? Druids get almost all the associated spells for those items, and I've got a few ways planned to boost spellcraft to help with hitting the DC for missing one.
Did Mort want you to take an ironfang trait for the secondary trait, on your cohort?
Oh, and you mentioned moving quickly - with druid I can prep nature's paths which should increase our overland travel speed a great deal, unless I'm mistaken.
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*grins*
Great Minds think alike ;-)
That spell is on the Bard list, and my Skald has already taken it as one of her spells known :-D
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Re: Crafting, if you want to do it, go right ahead - I mean, having a portable magic item forge with us to (slowly, but surely) produce items, is certainly not a bad idea.
Just remember that you need to purchase 'magic item crafting supplies' in order to do so...
(Again, the market will refresh in a week, and we can restock.)
Okay, I'm trying not to go crazy - but do you think it's at all feasible to have a greensting scorpion valet familiar to further help our endeavors at crafting? I would never use it in combat.
And if I'm doing druid, you could swap out Nature's paths if you want.
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Well, my cohort has a small earth elemental (Sage) familiar named Rocky, who will be used primarily for scouting locations for us, so we literally know about enemy 'boots on the ground' ahead of time, so I would assume that it would be okay for your cohort to take a familiar, too?
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Thanks for the offer, but I'll keep Nature's Paths - it makes sense for the character, who is essentially a traveling minstrel :-)
Even with a ring of sustenance:
If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours’ worth of work. This time is not spent in one continuous period, but rather during lunch, morning preparation, and during watches at night.
So at best you could get only 500 gp of work done a night, even with accelerated crafting.
Okay, so there’s no reason to get a ring of sustenance then, right? That’s the normal amount per day while adventuring according to the core rules. Also, I don’t see where you got 500, is it 250 (for 2 hours) x2?
Ultimately it boils down to:
How many GP could I do per day with portable artificer’s lab, and a valet familiar? With and without the ring of sustenance?
With the the lab it looks like 375x2 or 750 per day on adventuring days, without the ring, as far as I can tell. What would it be with the ring?
And on non-adventuring days I could do 2000 per day, right?
The problem is with 8 hours marching, meal breaks, setting up camp and what not then any activity after will start incurring fatigue.(1h for scroll scribing I can turn a blind eye, but after that I'll say you start getting fatigued).
This process can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price (or fraction thereof) by increasing the DC to create the item by 5. - Accelerated crafting doubles production rate. So normally you'd net only 250 gp of work.
8h - 1000gp
4h for crafting only(because adventuring) - 500gp
2h(further reduction due to adventuring penalties) - 250 gp
750 go on adventuring days assuming you do accelerated crafting(since portable lab lets you get 3 hours of work for the 4h you work). 2000 gp per day assuming you're not adventuring.
With a valet familiar it'll be 1500 gp on adventuring days, 4000 gp on non adventuring days since cooperative crafting is in play.
Oh so maybe I should do it? I think it’d help everyone, right? Then we don’t have to rely on Veld?
Are your above numbers with a ring or without? I just want I know what I have to purchase upfront. :)
Ironfang seems to want us to be as self-sufficient as possible, this seems to be in that spirit.
You no ring forget about crafting while adventuring. Period.
Nigel - feel free to run through my maths. You know it isn't a strongsuit of mine.
No, Nigel. I do not allow crafting without rings of sustenance while adventuring because you won't have time to sleep. Just to state it upfront.
Ahh, you can see why I was confused. Thanks for the clarification. I think when we saw the ring of sustenance it seemed to me to be an “additional” way to get crafting time beyond the 4/2 hours as presented in the core rules, as those 4/2 hours seemed to be a part of regular adventuring (based on what I read, at least).
Your numbers above are good to roll with, I’m happy to use the ring to be able to get it done as long as I can make some progress.
I will also assume that during the day your valet familiar is snoozing in the bag of holding else it won't be awake for your crafting at night, so you don't get the init bonus. As the bag of holding blocks line of effect. Or you could declare its sleeping on your shoulder etc, but that may make it vulnerable to area of effect things.
The last time I looked, greensting scorpions couldn't wear rings.
It can snooze in a familiar satchel, which provides total cover, as well, unless I am mistaken. Would that allow it to provide the initiative bonus?
I noticed Nigel was rolling for the presence of upgrade dust and item crafting supplies? Therefore I assume you want us to roll for each item we theoretically want to upgrade.
If we want to purchase magical crafting supplies, how do we do that? Roll for the supplies need for each item, or roll for each 5000? I couldn't find a reference to this anywhere in any thread.
Purchases, rolls and future plans:
Starting - 36854
Purchased without roll:
+1 small composite longbow (+2 strength) - 2600
Sold masterwork composite longbow - 250
Net 2350
Remaining - 34504
Attempt to Purchase
- 2000 gp
- 1000 gp
- 1400 gp
- 1000 gp
- 2000 gp
- 1000 gp - FAIL
- 1000 gp
Total Spent - 8400
Remaining - 26104 - to be spent on crafting things
Two more questions before I go to bed:
1) Which traits are allowed for cohorts, per this question I asked Nigel? I assume one is ironfang invasion?
2) Regarding the time spent crafting - I just want to be 100% clear on the hours I'm doing, so we know for watches who is awake at what times.
Cohort:
2 hours sleeping (with ring of sustenance) - 5:00 am - 7:00 am
1 hour getting ready - 7:00 am - 8:00 am
8 hours adventuring (maybe more?) - 8:00 am - 4:00 pm
1 hour loafing, eating and relaxing - 4:00 pm - 5:00 pm
4 hours crafting (worth 3 hours of benefit) - 5:00 pm - 9:00 pm
8 hours miscellaneous loafing/watch/etc (assuming crafting for part/all of the time but all progress was done earlier, effectively?) 9:00 pm 5:00 am
Familiar:
8 hours sleeping - 5:00 am - 1:00 pm
3 hours adventuring (maybe more) - 1:00 pm - 4:00 pm
1 hour loafing, eating and relaxing - 4:00 pm - 5:00 pm
4 hours crafting (worth 3 hours of benefit) - 5:00 pm - 9:00 pm
8 hours miscellaneous loafing/watch/etc (assuming crafting for part/all of the time but all progress was done earlier, effectively?) 9:00 pm 5:00 am
Couldn't the scorpion be asleep from 11:00 pm to 7:00 am, since that time will be on watchloafing? Or do you want to say that the cohort and familiar is crafting from 5:00 pm - 5:00 am (12 hours) continuously, and so needs the familiar's help for the entire time? If so, the familiar will still be awake for adventuring hours from 1:00 pm - 4:00 pm. This might help you think out the logistics.
Remember, I am literally an engineer (and a professional engineer, for that matter), so I know how to do things analytically too. :)
Here's a draft for review:
Unnamed
Female half-elf druid (menhir savant) 7 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 38, Ultimate Wilderness 213)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision, tremorsense 30 ft.; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +1 Dex, +2 shield)
hp 52 (7d8+14)
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +9; +4 vs. fey and plant-targeted effects, +2 racial bonus vs. necromancy and curse spells and spell like abilities and to remove negative levels
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee mwk scimitar +7 (1d6+1/18-20)
Special Attacks wild shape 2/day
Druid (Menhir Savant) Spells Prepared (CL 7th; concentration +11)
. . 4th—freedom of movement, insect plague[D], slowing mud[ACG] (DC 19)
. . 3rd—burning entanglement (DC 17), darkvision[D], earth tremor[UW] (DC 17), greater magic fang
. . 2nd—barkskin, burst of radiance (DC 16), reduce animal, vomit swarm[D,APG], warp wood (DC 16)
. . 1st—feather step[APG] (DC 15), heightened awareness[ACG], jump[D], nature's paths, obscuring mist, produce flame
. . 0 (at will)—detect magic, grasp, guidance, virtue
. . D Domain spell; Domain Vermin domain
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 17
Feats Augment Summoning, Craft Wondrous Item, Natural Spell, Planar Wild Shape[UC], Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (conjuration)
Traits deft dodger, ironfang survivor
Skills Acrobatics +6 (+2 to jump), Climb +5, Fly +2, Handle Animal +7 (+9 vs. Bison (combat-trained) while worn), Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (nature) +4, Knowledge (planes) +5, Linguistics +4, Perception +10, Ride +2, Sense Motive +5, Spellcraft +17, Stealth +2, Survival +8, Swim +2
Languages Common, Druidic, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, Sylvan, Terran
SQ able assistant, blightborn, elf blood, elf druid, familiar, illustrious urbanite, nature bond (Vermin domain), place magic, spirit sense, tremorsense, vermin friend
Other Gear dragonhide agile breastplate[APG], darkwood heavy wooden shield, mwk scimitar, armillary amulet, ring of sustenance, artificer's lab, portable[ARG], familiar satchel[UE], masterwork backpack[APG], masterwork tool, bison (combat-trained), exotic military saddle, leather barding, saddlebags, training harness, 47 gp, 3 sp, 6 cp
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Special Abilities
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+2 natural armor in Wild Shape Add +1/3 to the druid’s natural armor bonus when using wild shape.
Able Assistant (Ex) Treat valet as it possesed Cooperative Crafting and all Craft skills and item creation feats you have.
Augment Summoning Summoned creatures have +4 to Strength and Constitution.
Blightborn +2 to save vs. necromancy, curses, and temp negative levels.
Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su) Your familiar can deliver touch spells for you.
Druid (Menhir Savant) Domain (Vermin) Granted Powers: You share a deep connection with mindless invertebrates.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Familiar Gain a greensting scorpion familiar.
Illustrious Urbanite You may leave buildings & structures undamaged when casting spells of the chosen school.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Natural Spell You can cast spells while in Wild Shape.
Place Magic (7/day) (Su) Free, +1 to caster level for 1 round.
Planar Wild Shape May add the celestial or fiendish template to your animal form
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Speak with Familiar (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your familiar.
Spell Focus (Conjuration) Spells from one school of magic have +1 to their save DC.
Spirit Sense (Sp) As det. undead, also fey, outsider, astral/ethereal/incorporeal simultaneously.
Tremorsense (30 feet) Sense creatures and objects in contact with ground or water.
Tremorsense (Ex) At 6th level, you gain tremorsense 30 feet. At 12th level, you gain tremorsense 60 feet.
Vermin Friend (Ex) Use wild empathy on vermin as well as animals.
Wild Shape (7 hours, 2/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Also, familiar
Arcane Familiar CR –
Greensting scorpion (valet) (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 232)
N Tiny magical beast (vermin)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 19 (+3 Dex, +7 natural, +2 size)
hp 26 (1d8)
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +5
Immune mind-affecting effects
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee sting +10 (1d2-4 plus poison)
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks deliver touch spells
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +3)
. . At will—open/close (DC 6), prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +5; CMB +6; CMD 12 (24 vs. trip)
Feats Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Weapon Finesse
[b]Skills Acrobatics +11, Climb +11, Escape Artist +4, Fly +11, Handle Animal +1, Knowledge (geography) +4, Knowledge (nature) +0, Knowledge (planes) +4, Linguistics +3, Perception +10, Ride +4, Sense Motive +1, Spellcraft +9, Stealth +19, Survival +1, Swim +7; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Perception, +4 Stealth
Languages speak with master
SQ able assistant, aide to all, deliver aid, deliver touch spells (modification), empathic link, teammate
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Special Abilities
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Able Assistant (Ex) Master treats you as if you had the Cooperative Crafting feat.
Aide to All (Ex) A full-round action, grant up to three adacent creatures benefits from aid another.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white only).
Deliver Aid (Ex) Move before and after using aid another action.
Deliver Touch Spells (Modification) (Su) Can move before and after when delivering a harmless touch spell.
Deliver Touch Spells (Su) Deliever master's touch spells.
Empathic Link (Su) You have an empathic link with your master.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting effects You are immune to Mind-Affecting effects.
Poison (DC 13) (Ex) Sting—injury; save Fort DC 13; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect sickened for 1 round; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Speak with Master (Ex) You can communicate verbally with your master.
Teammate (Ex) You are considered to have all teamwork feats your master has.
She also has a combat trained bison (only for overland travel). Thanks Nigel!
Everyone, please let me know what you think, and if I'm missing anything, I've been working on the background for a bit but haven't finalized it.
I checked that cohorts don't get traits so you don't need to worry about what traits. Since cohorts are NPCs with class levels and NPCs do not get traits under creating NPC section.
Also, for crafting timings and character checking I need some time to check through so don't expect a fast reply on that one.
There's also this part no line of effect =no effect stated in this thread.
Nigel will always be on watch using keep watch.
Crafting supplies since base value is 2600 gp, each roll you get 2600 gp worth of it,until it runs dry. Decide what you'll spend it on.
Upgrade dust since Nigel already bought up the town's supply(all the upgrade dust roll fails), so no one can buy any more upgrade dust until the market refreshes. As it was done previously
Please rescind some of your purchases, Grenwold.
Also, Gren? As much as I disagree with it, it has been clarified by the Devs that the barding cost increase *includes* the cost of the special material, so large quadruped chain shirt barding costs 4400gp, not 1400gp (otherwise I would have bought that for Cavall instead of +1 studded leather) :-/
Good catch Nigel. I did sense something was a little off but couldn't find necessary proof to refute the statement.
*sigh* I wish I had realised that Cohorts didn't get traits earlier; I was counting on it, to avoid a feat tax...
...now I have to rejig the build....
EDIT: Hmmm... It loses a little flavor, but I am able to do it!
Well, you didn't send me your cohort character sheet per se...
Expletive deleted.
Consider them rescinded, I will be making very few purchase then. Remove the barding, remove all upgrades.
Can’t get a different familiar, this is the only one that also grants other decent abilities, and I can’t afford another feat chain for a generic one.
So, given everything, do you think we have even a remote chance to succeed/survive the next fights? I’m serious doubting it at this point. We’re going to fight CR 9-11 fights, like the next day in game (going on patrol right?). Nigel said he thought that we might be able to continue if we can go shopping - but we can’t, really. Even with the cohorts it seems extremely unlikely, Grenwold has, for example, gear equal to that held by a 6-7th level character.
I think we messed up too much and too many bad things happened to us as players, outside of our control. I’ll keep going, but honestly, fair warning, I’m on my last legs, mentally.
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Well, actually, I think I said if we got the cohorts, we could make a solid go of it; the point of the cohorts will be to act as a force multiplier to make *us* more effective in combat.
I don't think that there are any better markets that we could have gone to, even if things had gone better - one would hope that the AP is written to allow for that fact.
If you want the upgrade dust, you can have it - consider it a donation. Also, if it will help, we can Send to Veld to get her to cancel my project, and start working on yours?
Yeah mod as written its only Novvi, Misthome(once it becomes a settlememt) and Longshadow. AP life can be a tad meh in that respect. My ROTR cleric didn't actually get a single magic item even at level 7 other then a handy haversack. And book 3 would be through the wildiness so I don't think I would have gotten anything either.
Reign of Winter had no magic mart in book 1, magic mart in book 2, 3k base value in book 3, and 8k through the rest of the AP(assuming you do not miss him), assuming you do not scour the planes for stuff.
But in Reign of Winter there was someone who said he wanted to craft, so I gave 1 week downtime/book.
Strange Aeons had totally nothing in book 1,2k gp in book 2, 8k gp only at the end of book 3. Just for the record.
Grenwold - I'd allow your familiar to be awake for adventuring hours from 1:00 pm - 4:00 pm. If I allowed your familiar to be awake all the time during both your crafting and adventuring period, without a ring of sustenance, then you'd ask why do you even need a ring of sustenance in the first place.
Don’t worry about it Nigel, let’s try to survive until 11, and then we get “transport via plants” a few times per day. Should be enough to fix the problem, right?
Mort, I’ll go ahead with the assumption that crafting will be generally acceptable. Can I use my rolls for upgrade dust up above for magic item crafting materials instead?
Go ahead. You roll crafting supplies until your first roll fails.
Also I've never banned crafting per se. Someone has always been crafting in every AP that I run.