Grand Heroes Needed

Game Master Austin Bevers

In the interests of everyone understanding what is being offered, without flavor or embellishment: I face the dilemma of having vastly too many creatures of CRs that just don't get used (both pre-existing ones and entirely homebrew creations) and rarely do games get up to the levels required to make use of them. I want to make use of them.

So, if you're interested in a campaign where the bar starts at "Can lay siege to The Nine Hells" and only gets more demanding from there, you've found the right place. I intend to open the campaign with just that. The party will, for reasons which are their own, attempt to lay waste to every unique devil on the d20pfsrd. There will, of course, be other obstacles, including armies of lesser devils. There will be a significant twist, however: Lucifer will not be CR 39. Or 40. or 41.

Now we get to the fluffy bits of this!

Now is the opportune time for those with ambitions toward Hell to act. Not because it is weak, but because if the hammer does not come down now, it never will. Asmodeous has gone missing, and in his absence, a long forgotten angel has seized the realm. If he is allowed to secure his position, Hell will become unassailable.

To prevent the gods of the world from interfering, the angel has issued a dire threat. If any deity sets foot in Hell without his consent, he will turn all his infernal power, the mighty magics he wields, and the mythic power that lives in his bones toward the purpose of annihilation.

The specifics he offered are as follows: He has promised the return of Nex and The Whispering Tyrant Tar-Baphon, the full vengeance of Baba Yaga, and the shattering of Rovagug's prison. None are certain he can make good on these threats, but the risk is too great to attempt it.

The angel, cunning enough to recognize that, left with no options, the gods would gamble, has thrown down a challenge.

"If the Throne of Hell should be wrested from me by a mortal, I will relinquish my claim on the powers by which I threaten reality."

Returning to the crunchy bits!

Those interested should build 25 point buy characters which are CR 20. Yes, CR. For those who need help with the math, I'm willing to provide aid, but what this means is: Monsters may be used and given class levels. Characters can be lower level so as to allow for taking Mythic Tiers. There will be Mythic enemies. There will be enemies powerful enough to break the system over their knees.

Assuming the party survives, accomplishes the task (and presumably gains much loot and many levels along the way) there are other challenges to explore, titans to fight, and good deeds to be done. But I think there's enough on the plate already ;)

I realize this may be a -very- niche pitch. I can be reached here or on skype (argetlampuppeh)

The game will be played on Maptools and skype.

Will this be a live game or PbP?

What content is allowed? Third Party?

Also, just for clarity, what is your method of calculating CR? 1lvl=1cr, +1cr from a template=1cr, 1cr of monster=1cr? 1mythic rank=1cr?

Or do we follow the various rules for calculating the CR of monsters?

I have no idea how to go about building character for this... It would be a whole lot cleaner if you provided formulas for stuff... I think it would be a lot easier if people worked out from roughly the same thing. Giving levels + CR of templates + number of mythic tiers would make it more likely that people have fun in the same party, rather than having one mythic character, one monster and one made up of purely class levels.

Personally I greatly prefer gestalt (or tristalt) for this kind of powerlevel... I don't suppose you could consider starting at something sane like 12th level gestalt 4th mythic tier with being to allowed to change 1.5 levels for 1 CR of template.

Are any templates banned? Certain Templates, like Animal Lord and Dread Ghost are extraordinarily powerful in the hand of PCs.

At the moment I'm thinking a 19th level wizard (Exploiter) with 2 mythic tiers (does that add up to CR 20?).

I echo Johnnycat's question: PbP?

Also, CR for mythic tiers. I think the formula given in the book is that each Mythic Tier counts as 1/2 a level, so a standard-race character with PC gear, 15 levels, and 10 Mythic Tiers would be CR 20. Some argue, however, that a Mythic Tier ought to be worth more than that. Are you going with the written standard, or something custom?

Also, don't forget that for calculating CR by class levels, it's actually equal to your CR -1. XD Your Wealth by Level adds one more CR. Yay, complexity!

I'm only interested if this is pbp...

Hmm, is 1/2 level correct? Then I could do 17th level wizard with 8 mythic tiers, or perhaps a 17th level wizard with the Animal Lord Template and 4 tiers. It sounds quite a bit too low to me...

I do wonder about wealth. Is that dependent on our class levels? That sounds weird.

Well, the rules also say that a minotaur with four wizard levels is CR 6, so we might want to change it qround.

To the various questions about CR: correct, use the written rules for doing so, both for mythic tiers and for templates/monsters. As offered, the rules for monsters being pcs: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monstersAsPCs.html#appendix-4-m onsters-as-pcs

It will not be PBP, I can only imagine the nightmares of trying to run a game of this scope, mechanically, via only text. On the one hand, things like how far away a person is from another, barring insane distances, becomes irrelevant, but the complexities of flanking, cones, etc, would largely be down to fiat.

If there ends up being 0 interest in this as a live online game, perhaps I'll consider revising that stance.

To Oyzar in specific: Ultimately, gestalt does some interesting things to the CR calculations of a "fair" fight which, while able to be considered, are not as simple as working within the system Paizo already has. As with before, if everyone participating decided they wanted that, I would consider it.

And yes, assuming you have WBL and my heat-addled mind is cooperating, 19 levels in a class, with no other modifiers, +WBL =CR 19, 2 mythic tiers equal +1CR-ish. (Gets a little wonky because creatures don't usually take mythic tiers, they have ranks instead, but from my standpoint, the math is the same)

As for templates and third party: Yes, there are some bits of third party content, templates or otherwise, as well as first party templates, which are incredibly powerful, arguably even broken. I will be reviewing every character submitted (this is not a first come first serve selection process) with an emphasis on how/why the character is what they are (Oh, you're an Advanced Vampire Sorcerer Worm-That-Walks? Interesting concept, tell me why this horrid creature exists!)

That said, I recognize that, as part of the pitch, there is a call for "op"/"minmaxed" characters, so, in summary: Come to me with a build, third party content piece, or anything else which you think might cause an issue, and I'll evaluate it, and save us both the trouble of:

Player "Hey, I built a thing! It took six weeks!"
GM: "Sorry MR/MRS Player, too cheezy."

Good questions, Everyone!

Right. I won't be able to join you, but in the interest of others who might, could you outline the rules you're using for calculating the CR of a monster PC with class levels? Because more than two variations.

It will not be PBP, I can only imagine the nightmares of trying to run a game of this scope, mechanically, via only text. On the one hand, things like how far away a person is from another, barring insane distances, becomes irrelevant, but the complexities of flanking, cones, etc, would largely be down to fiat.

That's a damn shame (especially since this subforum recruits primarily for PbP). What hours are you using? I'm pretty competent putting stuff together but I use PbP for convenience. I doubt I'd be able to commit to a more rigid time frame.

To the various questions about CR: correct, use the written rules for doing so, both for mythic tiers and for templates/monsters. As offered, the rules for monsters being pcs: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monstersAsPCs.html#appendix-4-m onsters-as-pcs

It will not be PBP, I can only imagine the nightmares of trying to run a game of this scope, mechanically, via only text. On the one hand, things like how far away a person is from another, barring insane distances, becomes irrelevant, but the complexities of flanking, cones, etc, would largely be down to fiat.

If there ends up being 0 interest in this as a live online game, perhaps I'll consider revising that stance.

To Oyzar in specific: Ultimately, gestalt does some interesting things to the CR calculations of a "fair" fight which, while able to be considered, are not as simple as working within the system Paizo already has. As with before, if everyone participating decided they wanted that, I would consider it.

And yes, assuming you have WBL and my heat-addled mind is cooperating, 19 levels in a class, with no other modifiers, +WBL =CR 19, 2 mythic tiers equal +1CR-ish. (Gets a little wonky because creatures don't usually take mythic tiers, they have ranks instead, but from my standpoint, the math is the same)

WBL for 20th, regardless of level, unless I've overlooked something (other than you know, answering that question ahead of time xD) So yes, you can have only one class level, but still get the WBL of a 20th level character.

As for templates and third party: Yes, there are some bits of third party content, templates or otherwise, as well as first party templates, which are incredibly powerful, arguably even broken. I will be reviewing every character submitted (this is not a first come first serve selection process) with an emphasis on how/why the character is what they are (Oh, you're an Advanced Vampire Sorcerer Worm-That-Walks? Interesting concept, tell me why this horrid creature exists!)

That said, I recognize that, as part of the pitch, there is a call for "op"/"minmaxed" characters, so, in summary: Come to me with a build, third party content piece, or anything else which you think might cause an issue, and I'll evaluate it, and save...

Austin Bevers wrote:

It will not be PBP, I can only imagine the nightmares of trying to run a game of this scope, mechanically, via only text. On the one hand, things like how far away a person is from another, barring insane distances, becomes irrelevant, but the complexities of flanking, cones, etc, would largely be down to fiat.

That's a damn shame (especially since this subforum recruits primarily for PbP). What hours are you using? I'm pretty competent putting stuff together but I use PbP for convenience. I doubt I'd be able to commit to a more rigid time frame.

I'm available all day, every day, conceivably, so it's up to the group.

Answers post edited for further clarification.

Well, feel free to shoot me a PM if you end up looking for players for a PbP.

Yes, I know you said that, but the 'monsters as PCs' rules don't actually give the resulting character a CR.

But, extrapolating from that, you want (CR=1(wbl)+class lvl-1+monster CR+MR*1/2+template CR) to describe the characters' CR?

It will not be PBP, I can only imagine the nightmares of trying to run a game of this scope, mechanically, via only text. On the one hand, things like how far away a person is from another, barring insane distances, becomes irrelevant, but the complexities of flanking, cones, etc, would largely be down to fiat.

Uh, have you thought about using maps? It's the most common way to deal with positioning and areas of effect. Most of your issues are solved already, there are several guides on the issue (Painlord's guide to pbp GMing for example). How would you run it live without a map anyway?

As mentioned, I'm not interested at all in a non-pbp game.

Right. I won't be able to join you, but in the interest of others who might, could you outline the rules you're using for calculating the CR of a monster PC with class levels? Because more than two variations.

To ensure maximum transparency/Ease of use:

There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher.

For monsters with racial Hit Dice, the best way to allow monster PCs is to pick a CR and allow all of the players to make characters using monsters of that CR. Treat the monster's CR as its total class levels and allow the characters to multiclass into the core classes. Do not advance such monsters by adding Hit Dice. Monster PCs should only advance through classes.

If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.

Austin Bevers wrote:

It will not be PBP, I can only imagine the nightmares of trying to run a game of this scope, mechanically, via only text. On the one hand, things like how far away a person is from another, barring insane distances, becomes irrelevant, but the complexities of flanking, cones, etc, would largely be down to fiat.

Uh, have you thought about using maps? It's the most common way to deal with positioning and areas of effect. Most of your issues are solved already, there are several guides on the issue (Painlord's guide to pbp GMing for example). How would you run it live without a map anyway?

As mentioned, I'm not interested at all in a non-pbp game.

Oh, I fully intend to use maps, as noted in the first post. The problem is more in narrating via walls of text the specifics of say, a hundred imps and ten ice devils each making use of their various abilities. Speed and clarity are desired, and while it's possible to simply say, for example, that all of the ice devils use their "Summon Bone Devil" ability and leave the post at that, a "more efficient" use of their turn economy is, potentially, to wait to see how the 50% chance plays out for each of their comrades in turn. This works fine as the GM, I can roll them all, then narrate how it goes. It gets vastly more complicated with abilities targeting players (All the vampires cast Dominate Person on the same target! Oh wait, it failed the save for the first one, whelp, rest of the vampires wasted their turn, lul)

We speak faster than we write. Combat will be bogged down enough as it is. Questions are more easily asked, and more easily answered, as the situation plays out, rather than having to write, re-write, and revise a post umpteen times.

Yes, I know you said that, but the 'monsters as PCs' rules don't actually give the resulting character a CR.

But, extrapolating from that, you want (CR=1(wbl)+class lvl-1+monster CR+MR*1/2+template CR) to describe the characters' CR?

At the risk of sounding like a tool: I don't speak math. I could probably suss out exactly what the formula above says, but I'd rather not get it wrong and look a fool, so the easiest way I have to answer coherently is:

Use the various maths provided for calculating the cr of all of the options you choose. Using the example given:

"For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian."

We're 20th CR (The equivalent of a 20th level character with WBL) So said Minotaur would have 16 class levels or the equivalent to disperse. (assuming of course, it took WBL. I don't know that anyone won't, but if it happens to come up, I'll address it then. I just can't imagine someone only wanting NPC WBL)

That Minotaur could disperse the 16 levels in the form of 11 levels in barbarian and 10 mythic tiers, or 6 levels in barbarian, 10 mythic tiers, and 5 CR in templates, or any other combination that comes to the appropriate total. CR additions, like templates, add to the CR directly. Class levels behave as class levels always have for the purposes of calculating CR (level-1, per the core rulebook, iirc, but certainly cited elsewhere on this thread) and WBL is +1 to CR.

See, we don't need algebra ;)

Okay. Then I understood you.

I was just asking because the standard way of determining a monster with class levels' CR is to add +1cr per associated class level, and +1/2cr per nonassociated class level.

So a minotaur barbarian 16 would be CR 20 before adding wbl, but a minotaur rogue 16 would only be CR 18.

Okay. Then I understood you.

I was just asking because the standard way of determining a monster with class levels' CR is to add +1cr per associated class level, and +1/2cr per nonassociated class level.

So a minotaur barbarian 16 would be CR 20 before adding wbl, but a minotaur rogue 16 would only be CR 18.

I appreciate the attempt at clarification, and I'm glad we were on the same page =)

The fault was mine, operating under the assumption that players wouldn't opt for the "non-associated" route, but given the opportunities to make use of the lower Cr to squeeze in, say, four mythic tiers, I can see why it was in question.

So, for those of you who understand math, use Olaf's equation. Otherwise, text explanation provided. Learning get~

OK -- I fear I can't commit to trying to schedule another live game around my schedule. I play in a couple already, and already trying to get the schedules for them to work is a bit of a nightmare. Chances are that if accepted to this live game, I'd not be able to make it anyway....

I would be interested in this as a PbP.

How often would you be looking to play? What kind of scheduling would you do (fixed day/time, work around everybody's availability, a mix of the two, somethings else?)

Entirely up to the people who decide to play, Reckless.

A clarification which as come up: I will not be making use of unchained material. The classes are theoretically on the table, if someone wishes to use them, but things like background skills are not.

Hmm. On the off chance that this turns out to go PbP, I'll probably either go with a Cliff Giant (fighter simple class template) Paladin 6 with Champion Rank 10, or, if 3pp is allowed, a Raelis Azata with a Warlord level followed by 8 Bladecaster levels, and with two archmage ranks.

I'll make a Inquisitor of some sort. Should be fun

I can only do PBP, as my weekend time is busy with face-to-face games, but I'm definitely interested.

Working on a fun Kasatha Mobile Fighter 15/Champion-Archmage 10 who uses an elven curveblade and wands. Fun to envision!

Actually, this would be a cool time to make a sacred fist. Punch for the punch god!

Do we receive 2 Traits? Are the campaign traits? Are you using the 1 flaw for additional Trait rule?

Looks interesting, but that 'no PBP' axes me utterly, alas.

Reckless: Just the two traits. Unless something hilariously broken occurs, take campaign traits if you want. Negatory on the flaw.

So theoretically someone could make a mythic mimic creature swarm collective and name themselves Gazebo?

That's DREAD Gazebo to you, mister!! (Or Mr. Dread Gazebo. Or Judge Dredd Gazebo, if he was involved in the legal system ...)

My Kasatha wand wielder has morphed into a Ghoran Fighter Herald of Nethys. Kasatha are so overdone :)

Well, I'm definitely interested if we can work out the times & I'm accepted. Will be working on a post with crunch n fluff.

So.....

I've been busy, but my character is coming along. The only problem is that I don't know which is the more accurate term. Demidracolich or dracodemilich.

starting at high level is something I've always wanted to be able to do. I'm hoping a Pseudodragon Sorcerer that absorbed the power of his aged master as he died will be a fun fit.

Interested... working in a Female Human Cleric of Desna Level 16 Mythic Hierophant Tier 10

Guys, the GM hasn't posted since June 9th, and this is his only thread. I'd hold off on those characters if I were you.

Well, since I'm already done, I might as well post it.

I haven't posted because I put forth my skype contact info for folks to reach me with questions and characters.