GiantSlaying with DM ERK

Game Master evar0

Ay sorry, here I am

Don't worry Toorg, I've done plenty of hunting in my days, this should be easy

Let's see here, twist this lever...murmer murmer murmer move the hinge.....

Disable device: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (12) + 8 = 20

And that should do it! Rormar says as he stands up to admire his work.

That does indeed do it. Toorg is a free tree. Heh!

Sorry for the absence, life was busy the past few days. Fenn your last post was an accurate presumption. I assume you will move up to follow him? It's your go Roo, Fenn's stuff will happen first though

Yeah Fenn follows up the hallway.

Fenn if you dash you make it up to another door. It is closed. You have 10 feet of movement left. What do?

MapFenn you are at the door of the newly filled in hallway.

Not wanting to run into a trap, Fenn comes to the door and stops. Kicking the door in frustration, he yells after the orc "You sack of troll dung! You won't get away for long!"

Going to bot Roosevelt. Toorg moves down the hall and down 1 space out of the way of the group. Roosevelt moves towards the hall but doesn't enter it.

"You're a coward, Daktani!" roars Malthu, but without the sight of an immediate threat, the adrenaline seems to fade from his system Dropping out of rage--fatigued.

Instead, he goes over to the troll corpse and pummels it again for good measure.

If we drop out of initiative, Malthu will light a torch and start burning the troll up.

"Good idea, Malthu. Wouldn't want to fight it a second time."

Rurik then walks over to the chest and gives it a tap with his hammer. Making sure it isn't trapped in some way. He opens it if it isn't.

It seems we may be dropping from combat. Romar, did you want to do anything before that happens?

Fenn cautiously returns to the others, making sure to not be attacked from behind. He is concerned the troll may still be alive and fighting his new friends.

Agreed that we are dropping out of combat. Let's burn the troll, heal up if needed and continue.

Woops forgot to roll for perception to check for the chest being trapped

Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (7) + 3 = 10

In the chest you find stuff including 1 ounce of sovereign glue, 2 doses of universal solvent, 50 feet of silk rope, a disguise kit (with 6 uses remaining), a set of thieves’ tools, a noble’s outfit , a signet ring worth, and coins totaling 237 gp, 155 sp, and 55 cp. Apprise for ring and noble outfit worth. The book shelf only holds a slightly burnt holy text of Iomedae.

"Huh. Good thing there are 2 doses of solvent...I've been stuck to stuff before with that glue, and let me tell you. It isn't fun, especially when you're dangling out of a window by your...never mind."

Roosevelt shoves the glue and solvent into his bag and then detects magic on the rest.

Appraise 1: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (13) + 1 = 14
Appraise 2: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (19) + 1 = 20

Malthu takes the slightly burnt holy text of Iomedae. "The Sanctuary will appreciate this relic of a dark past," says Malthu.

nothing magical about the remaining items.

The ring is worth 50 gp and the outfit is worth 75 gp.

Where do you guys want to explore?

What options do we have? Let's go the opposite way from Daktani for now.

There are doors to the top of room you guys fought the troll in. A door beside the ladder you climbed down and the hall below where daktani went.

Options

We are here so let's check out the doors in the troll room.

After considering the loot for a moment, Fenn pockets the thieves tool and disguise kit.
Then he moves to the door next to the ladder and examines it for traps and securedness. "No door knob left unturned I always say."

Perception: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (10) + 6 = 16

Malthu will grab any leftover loot that nobody claims, for later distribution.

Malthu checks out the door as well. Perception: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (5) + 4 = 9.

Unless he or Fenn sees anything out of place, he'll open the door.

"Thanks for grabbing all that, Malthu. And I dare say that outfit would look pretty nice on you. And I hope you don't mean that literally, Fenn, I do appreciate my privacy at night. Nonetheless, I agree with the sentiment."

Rormar sees Malthu and Fennrick looking intently at the door, so he checks it out as well, though only to see if the door is interesting looking at all.

perception: 1d20 + 8 ⇒ (4) + 8 = 12

Also, sorry for the absence. Also, yeah, I'm definitely fine with dropping combat. Was going to set myself up to chase him if we could, but we were too far away at that point anyway, I think.

I'm going to assume you guys wanted the door i labeled 4.

Updated map.

The walls of this chamber are pocked with skull-sized cubbyholes, each containing a single brass or clay urn—some long since shattered or dented, others still intact. A lightly colored stone statue depicting a burning chariot wheel occupies the northwest corner of the room. Two iron doors on the eastern wall allow egress from the room.

As you enter the room roll a perception check.

Perception: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (4) + 4 = 8. Malthu enters the room oblivious.

Should have also asked, where in the room you?

Malthu stays toward the front of the marching order as they go in, in case someone or something attacks.

Roo Perception: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (5) + 1 = 6
Toorg Perception: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (18) + 1 = 19

Roosevelt sees nothing as he enters. Toorg apparently sees all of the cosmos unfolding in front of his eyes.

Perception: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (14) + 6 = 20

Fenn moves into the room and takes the room in quickly, his eyes darting from crevasse to shadow alike.

Fenn will be just left of the inside of the door looking further into the room. As Malthu moves forward, so does Fennrick.

Fenn you notice some common metal objects floating in the air in the middle of the room. Would Fenn pipe up before your compatriots walk near to objects?

"Hold up. What are those things?" Fenn points out the objects to Malthu and tries to think if he's read about or felt with anything like this in the past.

He will try to identify these objects. Not sure which knowledge skill it would apply for?

Malthu halts, then enters into a defensive stance. "Strange magics. Be ready."

Hearing Fenn's warning, Rormar peeks around the threshold of the door to look at the objects.

"I really don't like the look of this. This door has a knob that is now not-unturned, I say we head on to the next."

"Fennrick, what do your magic senses tell ya?"

Roosevelt detects magic on the objects.

The objects are just common stone and metal objects you would find in a croft/reliquary. There is nothing magical about them or in this room.

Rormar as you enter the room and look around you pick up on something weird about the wall behind the statue. It maybe a doorway as well, a secret one.

The description of the room has those objects floating. They are not magical?

Malthu takes one of his (non-metal) torches and tosses it into the pile of floating objects to see how it will react. He does the same with a metal crowbar.

Apologies, thought i would have more time over the holiday to post.

But no the floating objects are not magical. As Malthu throws in the wooden torch a slight splunk is heard and then the torch begins to breakdown. The metal crowbar also produces a splunk but is unharmed. Suddenly the objects move towards you Malthu. You all now notice the jelly like creature surrounding the objects you saw floating.

initRormar: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (12) + 2 = 14
initRurik: 1d20 + 1 ⇒ (5) + 1 = 6
initMalthu: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (9) + 2 = 11
initFenn: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (13) + 3 = 16
init Cube: 1d20 - 5 ⇒ (18) - 5 = 13
initRoosevelt: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (4) + 2 = 6

Turn order
Fenn
Rormar
Cube
Malthu
Roo
Rurik

oh s**&. Close the door close the door!!!!!

Kn:dungeoneering: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (5) + 6 = 11

Not knowing or quite understanding this strange "creature"? in front of him, he steps back into the doorway and beckons anyone else in the room to hurry out so that he can shut the door.

"Wait! it looks like there's a secret door in the back there though!"

Damn, that is one fast gelatinous cube - crushed us on initiative rolls with a -5 modifier!

Well, it did have a couple of things thrown at it first, so I think it deserves it

"Wait! it looks like there's a secret door in the back there though!"

"Mate, you are more than welcome to try it. I'm gonna go the other way though."

Rormar looks longingly toward the secret door before deciding to follow Fenn through the door.

The cube moves up to Rurik and seems to morph shape to stretch itself upward and slam into the dwarf

hit: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (19) + 2 = 21
damage: 2d6 ⇒ (3, 5) = 8 3 bludgeoning and 5 acid

Rurik Fort Save: 1d20 + 6 ⇒ (6) + 6 = 12
Rurik fails the fort save and is paralyzed for paralysis time: 3d6 ⇒ (1, 1, 2) = 4 rounds

What kind of knowledge check to learn more about the monster?

-Posted with Wayfinder

dungeoneering Sorry, Fenn's roll lets him knows its a gelatinous cube, but not much beyond that, just that it is dangerous.

It is VERY dangerous!

"Cowards!" cries Malthu to his fleeing companions. "The thing's got Rurik. Get up here and fight it!" Enraged, Malthu grabs his earthbreaker and smacks the creature as hard as he can.

Earthbreaker, Rage: 1d20 + 5 + 2 ⇒ (8) + 5 + 2 = 15; Damage: 2d6 + 9 + 3 ⇒ (6, 3) + 9 + 3 = 21

4 of 8 rounds of Rage used.

Malthu your earthbreaker sloughs off a large chunk of the creature. The piece splats against the wall and stays there.

"...Huh. Guess it's not that scary after all. Toorg, go get him!"

Roosevelt lays his hand on Toorg's side and casts Mage Armor on him. +4 AC to Toorg, and I believe I am out of spells now.

Toorg, bolstered by Malthu's courage, lumbers in and swings at the ooze.

Power Attack: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (14) + 3 = 17
Damage: 1d6 + 5 ⇒ (3) + 5 = 8

Toorg smasg another chunch off of the cube, but you all her a slight sizzling as the tree takes acid damage: 1d6 ⇒ 6. 6 acid damage from touching the cube.

Toorg Fort Save: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (16) + 4 = 20 and saves from the paralysis.

Rurik is paralyzed so he can only take mental actions. So Fenn what do you do?

Hello all! Welcome. A few friends and I have decided to run a game of Giantslayer. We currently have 3 party members and are looking for at least 1 more person possibly a 5th if I really love a character. We are planning to begin next Sunday(22nd of May).

A bit about me. I've been playing tabletop RPGs on and off for the past few years and recently transitioned into PBP. This will be my first time as DM. So have a bit of patience with me :D.

The party so far is composed of a cleric(unfinished), a dwarf zen archer, and a wildblooded gathlain sorcerer. I'd ask that you make an informed decision on what type of character to add to and complement this party make up.

Expectations: 1 post per day as i feel is generally expected.
Don't focus too much on min maxing, I'd prefer a strong backstory rather than a perfect robot.
I do not care about experience on PBP, but realize that this is a commitment. Going out of town/becoming unreachable for a bit tell me.
Language: Everyone involved so far is not overly

Onto the stuff you need to know.
Character creation:
Rather not deal with 3rd party for all sections
Races: If it’s not common you better have a good reason for it being in Belkzan( as is the case with our Gathlain friend, between a story hook in book 2 of the AP and a good backstory he made me okay with the strangeness of him).
Classes: All okay. Preferred Unchained if applicable/standardly agreed is better(i.e. summoner) Try and complement/fill out rolls not hit on so far.
Alignment : Its a good campaign so no evil.
Stats : 25 point buy. Nothing bumped over 18 by a racial bonus(hard cap). Avoid scores under 8, soft cap again I can be swayed by a good reason.
Gold: Average
Traits: 1 campaign, 1 other. Drawbacks for a third case by case. No rich parents/chosen one.

Dot!

So, from what I know about Giantslayer, a skald might be good. I'd consider either that, or a bloodrager.

Dot.

I'll take a look at the player's guide and get you a character sometime over the next day or so. Just to be clear up front, how do you feel about Occult classes?

Skald, bloodrager are both good options.

I haven't done anything with occult classes yet, but they do look very cool. So go ahead and give it a try. Thought I included that in the original post sorry.

I'm tempted to break out my dwarf primal companion hunter for this. She was an applicant for another Giantslayer campaign but failed to make the cut. She originally was going to multiclass with fighter (archer archetype), but I'm thinking of actually having a level or two dip into bloodrager (elemental - air bloodline) with either dual waraxes or a greataxe.

This character will need a little tweaking. Dwarf straight ranger, two-weapon style, probably here with the archer.

We could go all dwarves. Maybe a wash out dwarf wizard who is trying to find a place that tolerates his BO.

Just wanted to pop in and say hi! I'm the gathlain sorcerer Erk mentioned, I took the wildblooded fey bloodline so I have an animal companion. Well, plant companion-we decided that fey who are so bonded with plants that they have wings made out of them can also use plants as pets. So we're not completely without a melee guy, but Toorg the sapling treant definitely wouldn't mind fighting alongside a friend ;) Best of luck to you guys, looking forward to getting this show on the road!

Here is warhawk7's dwarf. I think I fixed the numbers for her.

Hmm.Saw you have a sorcerer, maybe a dwarf fighter with a chain-flail.

Yeah, Just to be 100% clear we have 3 party members already. A cleric, a sorcerer, and a zen archer.

This sounds nice. I've been looking at a chance to play Giant Slayer for quite a while now.

I'm actually torn between two characters.

One would be an Oni-Spawn Tiefling and a Slayer using the Vanguard archetype or a Fighter using the Mutation Warrior archetype. He'd be the son of two Half Orcs who, unbeknownst to them share a great, great, great grandfather: An Ogre Mage. Connecting the two disparate lines of that Oni's blood gave rise to a tiefling.
He'd be born in Trunau and be a shoe in for the

The other idea would be a Changeling Mesmerist using the Vox archetype. She'd be the daughter of a Green Hag, of which there are plenty in Belkzen, and a Half Orc man. She'd use her voice to win over the hearts of others and often manages to talk herself into and out of trouble. The downside is that she'd rely on the existence of the 5th spot as she would not be able to hold the frontline on her own. Her abilities would however perfectly complement those of the Sorcerer and possibly the Cleric.

How are you handling HP?

Also are you using background skills?

Also I have the crunch done for a Slayer. I'll go Trapfinding at level 2 to fill the rogue niche. What would you like background wise?

@Cuan Both of those sound pretty cool. If the mesmerist pulls on your heartstrings more make it. I am honestly leaning towards 5 more gives us a buffer person incase of inactivity. We can progress while looking for a new member if there are 4 people.

@ElegantllWasted HP is full + con at 1st and then both player and I will roll HD + con and take the higher result. I've also been looking into background skills, but have not decided quite yet. Background wise take a look at what Cuan posted about both his potential characters. That type of information is a good start. If your character is from Trunau do you know any of the main NPCs well? if you can answer most of these questions then you're at a good starting point.

dot

Dotting, I have a Fighter or Paladin Idea.

Thinking about a vanilla fighter. Any thoughts on Stamina and Combat Tricks optional rules? IMO it really makes fighter more appealing and funnier to play.

Can't think of a good concept, so bowing out.

I'll put forth my rescued Rise of the Runelords Paladin Diamon Erlatt. Background and stats are in the profile.

Alright, so my idea at the moment is for "George," a Halfling Spiritualist from the Ramblehouse in Trunau whose phantom, "Lenny," is the spirit of a half-orc he befriended near the end of the half-orc's life. I still have a few things I need to finalize, crunch-wise, but here's the start of it.

And here's Lenny's info.

The names are just place holders for now, hence the quotation marks. Let me know if you have any questions for me about the character. Thanks!

Hello, seems like you all are in need of a front-liner. I have a concept for a half-orc in mind, probably unchained barbarian. Do characters begin with average starting gold?

Yeah, average gold.

@Sir Longears I definitely see the appeal of the system

@Diam Erlatt Thanks for the submission. Sounds interesting.

@Mjolbeard89 same as Diamon. Nice tie in with the starting town.

@Tazo as Roosevelt said average gold.

I'll post a received applications list tomorrow so i can make sure I haven't missed anyone yet. Some really interesting ones so far.

Oh, this is interesting. Kicking around some ideas in my head, I'll try to get something in before the deadline. A Dwarven Barbarian (Titan Mauler) seems an obvious choice, but let me think on it.

I submit my gnome titan fighter that I had on the shelf here, saved just for this AP.
Jack Short counts several famous giant slayers among his ancestors, and will introduce himself as such, though he has yet to actually take one down himself. It's a matter of personal identity really.

I'll have crunch up soon

Alright, this is Tazo. I'm submitting Malthu the Redeemed, a Half-Orc Barbarian (Primal Hunter archetype). Son of the renowned female Orc warrior, Duras, Malthu inherited great potential and great expectation. He lived up to that reputation for a time by becoming an impressive raider for the cannibalistic Twisted Nail tribe, earning the name Malthu the Terrible. But his part-human heritage proves to be a weakness, as he acquires a disease that drives him into human lands. Now, under the influence of the church of Iomedae and its Half-Orc, Malthu counts himself among the warriors defending civilization instead of raiding it, and is known by some as Malthu the Redeemed. But he still has much to prove to those who knew him as Malthu the Terrible, and seeks to forge his own path as an outcast from both Orc and Human culture. Personality and backstory in the alias.

As far as the build goes, Malthu will mostly be a melee combatant, but will also mix in some thrown weapon attacks, eventually through the Charging Hurler rage power. It's always seemed to me that a proper barbarian warrior would be great with a large two-handed weapon in melee, but also have the ability to hurl weapons to deadly effect, and Malthu will achieve just that. He also has the potential to wield oversized Giant weapons, and may take a single-level dip into Titan Fighter to further accomplish that.

Okay submissions I have recieved so far, that are complete or nearly there:
Jack Short
Malthu the Redeemed
Diamon Erlatt
Kyra Stormreave
Thorfinn Feigrsson

A few of you have just posted basic ideas, I've got a separate list for those.

If I missed anyone let me know.
Also due to number of submissions and interest I will be closing recruitment Friday at Noon EST. I will let the chosen 1 or 2 know that evening. Play is then planned to begin on Sunday giving me a day to comment on characters chosen and such. Thanks for the interesting stuff so far.

Also George and Lenny, the Halfling Spiritualist and his Phantom.

I am thinking of either making a Human Pole Arm fighter or a Dwarven Phalanx fighter.

I have both built up on hero lab.

I'm working on Ragha, my Changeling Vox Mesmerist.

I changed her from being the daughter of a Half Orc to being the daughter of a full Orc. She is the daughter of Kroghut, former chieftain of the Broken Spine tribe, and a green hag. Her conception was the result of an experiment by her mother who sought to place her progeny within the ruling caste of several tribes. The hag disguised herself as one of Kroghut's mates and seduced him. The baby was swapped for another newborn daughter.

Due to her pale, almost white skin Ragha was bullied from a young age and her apparent physical weakness didn't help. Only the fact that her father was the chief kept her alive. When Kroghut had to flee the tribe's holdings in shame for his apparent failure Ragha fled as well, though not with her father.

She first went to Freedom Town and later to Trunau where she was allowed to stay by word of Halgra of the Blackened Blades herself. Turned out Ragha's father was roaming the outskirts of Trunau with his new tribe and his daughter would be a priceless source of information.

Hmm...

I'm very interested in making a PC for this game (always wanted to try Giantslayer) so I'll have something up by tonight. If not within like a couple of hours.

I think I'll plan on a half orc or human ranger, maybe even half elf.

I'm going to bail--work suddenly got frantic, and I won't have time for another game for a bit.

Stats posted

I'd like to submit Grunyar Edrukkgun for your consideration.

Not sure if we are using Background Skills but I used them in his crunch (IMO it is a great optional rule to really give life to our PCs). In Grunyar's case, I put points in Appraise (for his greed) and on K. Geography.

Aside from that, there are two things in his crunch that would need your approval:

a) Drawback: I tried to take a meaningful drawback that could fit Grunyar's background and decided to go with Unlearned. I took it for Mountain Guide... as you can see, it is mostly for fluff reasons.

b) Cha 6: You said to avoid stats under 8 without a good reason. As a dwarf, Grunyar's charisma would already be 8, which reflects the general bluntness and rudeness of the dwarves but, in Grunyar's case, he is a loner and stinky dwarf, even unpleasant for dwarf standards. Obviously it doesn't mean he is a jerk... he just doesn't care for half-trues and soft coating anything.

As a fighter he will feel quite well the front-liner role, even more if there is a fifth player with a rogue since I intend to make him really mobile, allowing many flanking opportunities.

If you have any problem/advice/critics, please let me know.

I am not familiar with the campaign setting...would that be a concern?

If not Let me say Dot...and I will look more into building something soon.

Query:

Stats : 25 point buy. Nothing bumped over 18 by a racial bonus(hard cap). Avoid scores under 8, soft cap again I can be swayed by a good reason

So, nothing over 18 even after racial mods? Just wanting to make sure I'm reading this right, usually I've seen "nothing over 18 before racial mods."

Alright, I have my half elf ranger Pilariwa. Probably not the best, but if I need to update any info about her just let me know.

Oh, this is interesting. Kicking around some ideas in my head, I'll try to get something in before the deadline. A Dwarven Barbarian (Titan Mauler) seems an obvious choice, but let me think on it.

Well, I'm going to be away from my PC the next few days and don't really have any ideas jumping out at me anyway, so I'm going to back out. Another time, mayhaps.

PS: Someone really needs to look into the Goliath Druid though. Fight giants by wildshaping into one!

Anticipating that the answer is that I don't need to much knowledge I have completed my submission.

Thought it would be fun to play an orc for a change, so here is Grherrggrm The Feral Dayrunner Orcish Titan Fighter.

I am combining the idea of playing an orc with the idea of playing someone that can't communicate...seems like it could be fun.

Say hello to Grherrggrm. He hits things. Really really hard. That is just about it.

Planning on playing him as mostly animal instinct. He is smart, for an animal, but doesn't really have a way to communicate that. Should make for some interesting RP I think.

@DM ERK, I'd like to revise my submission to create a Primalist Bloodrager with the Celeistial bloodline. The concept would be to tie in Malthu's connection to Iomedae in the form of the Bloodrager's magical abilities. The background would remain unchanged. I'm going to begin putting it together, but let me know if that's okay, or if you'd rather I stick with the original character.

*Edit* - okay, I threw that together pretty fast. I have both character sheets on this alias, so you can see the differences (which aren't that many at this point).

Dot

@Ouchitonian Example for an elf i do not want you to put your int up to 18 and then use your racial to get to 20. The rule is both another guard against min maxing and preventing multiple dump stats and a bit of personal philosophy on what is a level 1 PC in the world. Sorry to hear nothing is jumping out at you.

@BC4Realz playing a full blooded orc would be very difficult in the setting. There is a players guide available for free online to help you get a better idea.

Since my last post i have received these submissions:
George and Lenny(get the crunch to me),
Ragha
Grunyar Edrukkgun
Grherrggrm
Pilariwa
Revised Malthu

From that player's guide it does say: "Your character could be a half-orc cast out of a nearby tribe"...The same logic applies to a full blooded orc.

The people of Trunau would be wary of a raiding party, but a single wounded orc stumbling into town would not create as large of a fear response.

Certainly there will be people in town that don't trust him, that would prefer to kill him. But I think that would make the story interesting. Wild animal in an untrusting city sort of story line.

If it does not fit with your campaign though I could make the same build easily enough with a half-orc. Would probably take Pariah and Toothy as alternate racial traits (Pariah in particular seems to fit the flavor of the setting). I would even get a 1 point bump in one of my mental stats by doing that.

I really like the flavor of the first build better. But if it is going to be an absolute veto I will make the changes.

@BC4Realz: If you allow me, I'd like to give you an advice... According to the GM posts, he seems to be avoiding min/maxing and your PC is clearly min/maxed. Even if I agree that it could give good RP opportunities, your PC is so ridiculously powerful in hitting thinks that every other PC in the party would eventually have less fun in combat, since you'd destroy everything... Also, a simple charm spell could kill everyone if you fail your save! LOL

Thank you for the feedback Sir Longears.

I would disagree with the categorization that he is minmaxed just because he does one thing particularly well. He is a fairly standard combat focused character, and in line with the stereotype for the orc/half-orc race.

The party as it exists now is missing the Frontline slugfest archetype character. I made a build that I thought I would have fun with while filling that slot.

A single charm spell is generally the achilles heal of fighters and rogues. But since it runs on the same saving throw as several other low level save or dies (like sleep and fear) I don't think it puts the party in an undue amount of danger.

Ultimately it is the GMs call. I am comfortable that there are both roleplaying and rollplaying opportunites with this character build, especially in this adventure path - which is setup to be anti-orc PC.

...The party as it exists now is missing the Frontline slugfest archetype character....

I beg to differ. Jack Short here may not be such a damage dealer, but he has decent AC and can certainly take a hit or three.

Jack short is an applicant, same as Grherrggrm. When I said is now missing the frontline slugfest archetype, I meant amoungst the cleric(unfinished), a dwarf zen archer, and a wildblooded gathlain sorcerer that the GM referenced.