GM Granta's AP Planning

Game Master Granta

I see that background no longer grants max ranks in a Profession (but does now in Perform, yay), has the "versitile profession" concept been scrapped as well, or does it still work but it's up to us to invest the ranks as we see fit?

Nevermind, I see it. Was scanning over it.

Question on HP, which I've had from the beginning, what is "minimum Constitution modifer?" If I have a +2 Con, the lowest I can roll on my dice is 2?

Question on HP, which I've had from the beginning, what is "minimum Constitution modifer?" If I have a +2 Con, the lowest I can roll on my dice is 2?

Correct. A wizard with 24 Con could only roll a maximum of 6, though.

Also, I am assuming martials will retrain hp while casters are crafting.

What is "retrain hp"?

Spend downtime and money to re-roll, I believe. I'm not up on the retraining rules beyond class levels and even then I'm wobbly.

Would combining story feat Lost Legacy and campaign trait Disgraced Noble be OK? They are a bit about the same thing, and Disgraced Noble is possible to interpret as the prerequisite for Lost Legacy. Lady Delena's backstory is supposed to be that her father (and all his heirs) lost the title because he started a rebellion against Maxillar Pythareus. The trait only says 'disgraced', not that titles were lost, so it is kind of extension to the trait.

The reason I'm asking is because both give numeric benefits, and it is sort of getting two rewards for one role-play element. On the other hand, feats are often in chains and this is similar.

(Also, she couldn't stay at her husband's house after her husband died and his brother inherited the lands, but that is not relevant here.)

Related to this question, I would need names of two minor noble titles, one for Delena's family and one for her husband's. Can I just make up something Taldorish or do you want to choose them? She would use them when presenting herself (Lady Delena de Somewhere, baroness/countess/whateveress dowager of Somewhereelse). I had the idea that at least the main lands of her husband would be somewhere a bit remote, as one of her motivations is that she didn't want to be a housewife in the middle of nowhere.

Tiber is a fighter who currently has a mount oriented archetype (going for that knight sort of feel). I knew mounted combat would have little opportunity, but if you've read the whole AP and are advising against it, I've no problem reexamining. My initial though for this AP was a more urbanesque ranger anyways, and I see the ranger is back on the acceptable list! When I go back over my character, I'll see what falls into place and submit it here.

On mobile right now, so can't answer all questions yet. Retraining hp straight up adds a point, not rerolling. There is just too much in the scenario that would be problematic for the paladin code, and there is more nature stuff than I expected--though not enough for a druid.

I don't suppose Boon Companion would be acceptable? I have this idea of a sword and board ranger who is basically a sort of Sleuth/Bounty Hunter with his dog companion, but having a dog at level-3 means I'm going through a lot of dogs.

EDIT: If not, I'll probably stick to the fighter build and be happy.

REDIT: Ha! Made it through most of this thread before the edit window closed. Almost exactly a year ago, I asked about animal companion mounting feats and you said no. Fighter it is!

Oof, I think I'm a bit behind on what's going on. Given that we've a rogue, a fighter, a wizard, and an oracle so far... Shall I roll up a bard or cleric for some extra utility? Or would we be better served by another front-line combatant?

I've never actually played someone that gets up close and personal before, but I'm willing to give it a try! c:

Tiber, the dog companion sounds very Taldan (they love dogs) and even if it is level-3, it can do a lot. It doesn't have to do a lot of damage or bite hard, it can run around and help with flanking and teamwork and do lot of stuff out-of-combat. Still, companions tend to make many encounters crowded. With four, it would be easier than with the five.

Maybe Placeholder! c: (oh dear make a real name quick) should roll a dog?

I really don't have a set opinion what the fifth should be. Everything should work. More frontliners makes things safer and mass buffs have one more target, more control-characters mean less threats, more buff characters make the current ones stronger. You can even bring the crazy specialized snowflake you have not been able to bring to other parties because you had to bring something more well-rounded or fill a role.

If a bard is something you'd like to play, I think that would be awesome. Especially if they liked to join the fight after a buff or two! :D While I'm sure there is nothing in Golarion Pavo and I can't handle, it never hurts to have insurance ;)

It is very Taldan! My concern is more around level 6ish when AoE damage effects become common. Even with full HP, companions aren't exactly tanky, so being 3 levels lower (at least to me) is a bit of a deal breaker for any serious campaign. I'm not married to the idea, it's one that has been floating around for a while, so I'll just wait for a better time!

They did try to help AoE problem with giving them Evasion at level 3. I'm not that happy about the ability as it changes "Die or get hurt" to "Die or no effect" as my concern is more in removing the "Die" part. If it changed the 100%/50% split to 60%/40% or 70%/30% instead of to 100%/0% I'd be happier. The average damage would be same, just less risks of dying.

Also, it doesn't do anything to effects that require something else than Reflex. An area will save is very often a death sentence for an animal companion, even with Devotion's +4.

That's true, evasion is good but not at the same time (though on a rogue, I'd hate to trade it out!). I forgot about AoE will saves, gah! Those are so fun, but soooo deadly! I've always wanted to play a confusion focused character, just to watch it happen.

GM Granta: Can I remove the spells/abilities part of my tagline, or do you want it there as a placeholder?

@Lady Delena: Lost Legacy and Disgraced Noble are a good combo--just be aware, you wouldn't be able to complete the story feat until the end of book four.

As to the character info: the only disgraced family I remember in the AP was historical rather than recent, so you can make up your own. I will get back to you on estates and titles though. I'm currently reading Taldor, the First Empire for background, and will have better ideas once that's finished.

@Tiber: Yes, please remove any parts of the taglines that you aren't using. Just make sure the ooc and regular text still alternate, please.

Boon Companion is fine, as that means you won't be getting the companion right at the start--and that was the problem. Which reminds me, I should mention this again:

@All: The AP explicitly forbids the following for the first few levels: ranged weapons, two-handed weapons, medium armor, heavy armor, and animal companions. You begin at the Senate building, and the emperor is in attendance, so the guards are pretty strict about who and what gets through the door.

Also, I forgot to mention in the rules re-write that the prestige class Lion Blade from Inner Sea Intrigue is legal. There is a catch though, you wouldn't be able to take it until level 10. However, at that point the PCs actually undergo Lion Blade training, so you would have the option of retraining levels 6-9 for free.

Does the animal companion restriction apply to familiars? They are pretty small and many can be hidden inside clothing or bags.

Hiyami: I swapped from bard to rogue to make up for a lack of damage output and PK wanted a bard. However, with the revisions, I've been revisiting the bard idea. There is a dual-bard trick I'd like to consider: court bard + any bard with Inspire Courage. So, if bard is the way you want to go, we should maybe talk to see if that combo is something to try.

@Lady Delena: Familiars and service animals are fine. And yes, the AP specifically says service animals are okay, so that oracle with clouded vision can bring her seeing eye dog.

Oooo... If Boon Companion is on the table, I'll have to build it out and then decide...

If we are getting free teamwork feats, we probably should discuss what to pick and maybe plan it right from level 1. I don't have much experience with them, but I did some theoretical thinking with paired opportunists and improved feint partner, and it seemed strong.

I have no idea of caster teamwork feats. If we choose the feint line, I could help with that. I just don't like that it would require coming to melee range and wizards tend to die there.

Yeah, I was wondering about the teamwork feats as well. I have never used them. Just a quick glance through Nethys seems to show a couple dozen options for spellcasting.

I got the idea from this non-PFS recruitment. It made me realize that my logic for giving a bonus story feat also applies to teamwork feats. They both correspond with the kind of play that I want to see, so this is like priming the pump.

I can see the oracle and wizard pairing off together several paces away from the fighting and using teamwork casting feats to empower spells. I think I saw something that combined a bard and spellcaster too. It would be interesting to see how frontliners could team up for some powerful effects.

I think outflank would be a fun one for later levels! No idea on a lower level one. Precise Strike? It's like a free sneak attack die.

2nd Level Viable/easy prerequisites

Melee: Precise Strike (requires Dex 13 and +1 BAB) is decent (+2.5 damage per hit)

Any: Duck and Cover (no prerequesite) has some Oh Crap! coverage for Reflex saves and minor increase in AC vs. ranged attacks

Any but Melee more: Escape Route (moving ally takes no AOO when moving through or around your space), this is pretty decent if we need mobility in our fighting style.

Combat: Feint Partner (Bluff 1 rank), helps ranged hit too, apparently

Any: Lookout (no prereq), act in surprise round if adjacent to ally with this feat, is situational but helpful

Any: Shake It Off (no prereq), one of my favorite for solo tactics, +1 to saves for each adjacent ally with this feat

Combat: Shield Wall (shield proficiency), increase your shield AC bonus if adjacent ally also has a shield

Any: Stealth Synergy (no prereq), take the highest roll on Stealth of your ally who also has this feat and rolled stealth (use your on modifiers), range is sight

Melee: Swap Places (no prereq), swap places with your adjacent ally as part of your movement, no AOO for this swamp

Oh, my! Bards were my original class and I adore them. c: I assume you're looking to be the court bard? I can one hundred thousand percent accommodate that!

As a heads up, I'll be in and out for the next three or so days because of a LARP and then a relative's 50th birthday.

(I promise I'll get an actual name as soon as I figure out who I'm playin'! c: )

Hmm. Court Bard can't be a Lion Blade.

There's a different archetype that I'd like to consider, but it will need Granta's approval as it's from the Adventurer's Guide:

Brazen Deceiver

It pinches my skills (especially if I shoot for Lion Blade) due to the loss of Versatile Performance, but I love the idea of Pavo being able to convince someone the sky is green and grass is blue!

EDIT: Not even Sandman can straight class Lion Blade, so I'd really need to consider the cost/benefit of 3 levels of rogue. ENDEDIT

If not that (Brazen Deceiver), I would definitely consider the Court Bard, but I have tons of bard archetypes that I'm interested in if you'd like Court Bard. :)

Another link: a skill map for both a draft Court Bard and Brazen Deceiver

Skill Map

While brazen deceiver looks like a lot of fun, it also could be a headache. That class is going to lead to a lot of judgment calls, and could seriously break some situations.

It reminds me of kitsune disguise specialists. Paizo just doesn't realize how broken these huge bonuses are on deception skills.

OK. In that case, Hiyami, I'm good with court bard or any bard that has versatile performance, which is reflected in the skills I reallocated on the skill spreadsheet.

The satire/inspire courage duo nets +1 to hit, +1 damage, "+1 AC," and "1 DR/-," from the team's perspective.

The caster teamwork feat choices are not very interesting. There's one that gives spell penetration, and another that gives better concentration which are generally useful but not very powerful.

We can take one of those if martials want precise strike or something like that, or join the team if we go for saves or initiative etc.

Question about crafting: The Core Book says 'If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work'. Does this rule hold? I have the free Scribe Scrolls feat from wizard class, and cheap scrolls take the 2 hours to create. I could be doing crafting from day one with this?

I'm not sure if I want to, it sounds a bit tedious but I know I should have a ton of scrolls with me.

Question about crafting: The Core Book says 'If the caster is out adventuring, he can devote 4 hours each day to item creation, although he nets only 2 hours' worth of work'. Does this rule hold? I have the free Scribe Scrolls feat from wizard class, and cheap scrolls take the 2 hours to create. I could be doing crafting from day one with this?

In theory, yes. In practice, it will depend on how the day plays out. If you adventure more than 8 hours: no. If you don't have a quiet, safe place: no. And of course, you need the available spell slot and components.

But there will also be plenty of days when you spend 8 hours or less working, have a shop nearby to purchase supplies, and then go home to your own bed and workshop.

I'm not sure if I want to, it sounds a bit tedious but I know I should have a ton of scrolls with me.

We will have a spreadsheet to track lots of stuff, including this.

In that case, I might just play the standard bard! I'll have to poke around a bit more, but I think that combination is absolutely brutal. c:

Andddd, having poked around a bit more, I'm thinking yeah, I'll just stick with the standard bard. c: Some of the classes that do look interesting to me don't seem practical here. XD;

Ok, I like the fighter I have, but the dog with Boon Companion is just too Taldan to pass up. I'll get a Sword and Board Ranger rolled up. AC likely won't be as good, but I should still be able to play tank well enough. The dog will eventually be another body on the field, and with buffs flying around like confetti, TWF just might be greatly effective :)

I would like to use some sort of reward system for outstanding (role-)play, but don't want to just give out gold or xp. What do people think of this idea:

Players earn buckeye leaves for exceptional play, and can use them as an immediate action to lessen the effect of lethal attacks. Multiple leaves can be used at the same time, and the costs are as follows:

HP Damage: 1 leaf per hit point reduced
Ability Damage: 2 leaves per ability point reduced
Ability Drain: 3 leaves per ability point reduced
Saving Throw: 2 leaves per die roll increased

This is not a healing effect and cannot be used to reduce more damage than was received on the killing attack. Increasing a saving throw to 20 counts as if a natural 20 was rolled. Other characters may contribute leaves if the effected character does not have enough, but each character must use their own immediate action.

@Tiber: Is Mounted Combat missing from your feats list?

GM Granta: It is! If I stick with the Dragoon, I will add it in. Thank you for noticing!

All, here is the Ranger I am considering! Feedback always appreciated :D I've only ever played an archer ranger before, and never a twf build of any variety. I figure the AP, at some point, will give us a shiny weapon of story-based importance, hence the late entry Weapon Focus. Gives me a lot of flexibility with the weapon I use at any given time as well.

Instead of the former soldier vibe, he would be a sort of PI, Detective, Bounty Hunter type that has found himself favored by one of his customers.

I would forgo PA with a TWF build.

1. You don't need more penalties to hit.
2. The damage boost on TWF is poor.

Consider Shield Focus (+1 shield AC) or something fun.

Otherwise, that looks like a solid Sword & Board/Shield Bash build.

For profession, of those that grant K (local), the one that fits your concept as presented is P (gambler). P (innkeeper) is a little off, runs a seedy tavern to draw in his marks or just gather information? P (barrister) requires a little more retooling, but basically Daredevil (attorney by day, vigilante by night).

Gambler would grant you a probably not-useful-to-you Sleight of Hand.
Innkeeper would grant you Sense Motive.
Barrister would grant you K (nobility).

Profession (barrister): knowledge (local, nobility)
Profession (gambler): knowledge (local), sleight of hand
But the Profession related skills don't benefit from being class skills. Actually, it is a bigger benefit if they aren't.

I don't like Power Attack on a two-weapon build, because the bonus is smaller and you are already at a penalty. Bigger cost, smaller reward.

I would do Dodge instead of Toughness, Shield Focus instead of Power Attack, Greater Shield Focus instead of Step Up, and Shield Master instead of Weapon Focus. The basic concept of sword and board is to gain defense at the cost of offense--compared to say dual short swords or a two-handed weapon.

Ok, I can sack PA pretty quickly. I was on the fence about it anyways. If I start taking those AC increasing feats, I wouldn't need toughness either. Shield Master is an easy switch too.

I'd be happy playing that, with buffs going round, plenty of combatants, our damage would very much be a team effort. I like it!

This far the only reward I have gotten from role-play is the "like this post" some have given. I appreciate them a lot. I really don't need any concrete rewards from RP, just knowing someone liked is enough for me. I cannot tell what concrete rewards would achieve, maybe it would improve the RP, but it shouldn't encourage "farming" the points.

I had never heard of buckeye leaves before. Not very well known outside USA I presume.

About the ranger build: The hints others gave are good. The dog feats are mostly the basic ones. I just noticed something weird in the rules when I chose feats for my tiger. Light armor proficiency doesn't give much. Non-proficiency only means you take armor check penalty to combat rolls. But masterwork studded leather has a penalty of 0. So it doesn't seem that good? Also, if you go further, mithril breastplate has penalty of -1, so you get the same numerical result with weapon focus as with light and medium armor proficiency. Also, mage armor is quite cheap to give and it is as good as any light armor, but without any penalties.

The dog might be better off joining the team with teamwork feats we choose, and just handle AC with mage armor.

Re: buckeyes

The numbers depend on how frequently you expect to give out the buckeyes.

HP should probably be 1 buckeye per 2-3 HP negated if they're meant to be sparse.

I have no idea yet how often I will give out the buckeyes or how many you will need. It's going to be a trial and error routine.

@Tiber: Have you looked at the weapon and shield combat style?

@Lady Delena: I think animal companions need INT 3 to take feats like that.

I have, my thinking behind the TWF combat style was to get the TWF feats without meeting dex prerequisites since the shield feats I am considering are way easier to get through. Shield Master at 6th would be nice, but at that point I was thinking my damage output would start dwindling a little too much since I'd need a higher Dex to then take TWF feats.

Ah yes, I had taken int 2->3 as the 4th level stat advancement, so I could choose any feat.

I had one sword-and-shield two-weapon fighter for a couple of sessions, for one level. One of the things not mentioned is that it might actually be better to use a heavy shield as the main hand weapon, and a short sword (or similar, I used a wakizashi for higher crits) in the offhand.

That's a great point! Initially, with PA still in the build, I wasn't feeling that, but after having taken that out, it makes perfect sense to me! With what is basically a weapon agnostic build, I was going to have a golf bag of weapons, so I'll just choose a bunch of light weapons to cover various damage types.

Related: What is our estimated start date for this campaign/do we have one?

Completely unrelated: Are Dwarven Rogues worth playing for any reason? The idea popped into my head and now I'm curious. Perhaps not the best combatant, but without building one out I suspect they'd be a little sturdier and perhaps be better at some skills.

Re: Dwarven Rogues: For... personal enjoyment?

EDIT: P.S. I went back to using my base profile to post because Pavo was getting close to his renaming limit, and I can't remember why I picked that last name.

Related: What is our estimated start date for this campaign/do we have one?

When Outpost II ends.

Dwarf rogues? Well, depends on what kind of stat distribution you want. If you don't plan to use charisma, you get about the same amount of stats as with other races, mostly depending on how much constitution you want. You can get 10-18-16-10-14-5 array with a dwarf, and a human or half-orc can manage 10-18-16-9-14-7. Also, dwarf has darkvision and high saves, which are often much better than what other races get. It is not bad at all.

Thanks GM Granta!

Haha ok, personal enjoyment it is. I was thinking even without dumping a stat (beyond the 8 from the cha penalty), the skill bonuses would be nice, but I think only a certain kind of campaign would really benefit from that. Darkvision and saves are a strong sell for me though. Half-Orcs could do something similar though. Idk, just speculating!

Did we ask this before: is Lingering Performance allowed?

I certainly hope so! I think that could be very, very fun! I'm planning a human bard singer! All I know so far is that I'd like to run with the "Rising Star" AP trait and the "Meticulous" drawback. I've been deciding between Lingering Performance and going for a story feat, such as Lost Legacy. Or is that combination a bit too much? I like the idea of a story-driven game, so it's entirely possible I'm overdoing it. c: