Ashan is like water. He is whatever is needed on any given day.
I'm with Dantrian. I want to feel like it's still Drosil even if he is different mechanically and using a different weapon. I see swashbuckler or slayer as a possibility. If you want to add arcane power, I'll suggest Archaeologist Bard or even Magus. Actually, magus is possible with a dagger if you wanted to keep that part, though you could easily just pick up a new weapon. The Greensting Slayer archetype does replicate rogue abilities too, though perhaps slightly suboptimal.
Fair enough, Jelani - I'll trust your experience with the class. I don't want Drosil to overshadow the rest of the party any more than I want him to feel useless in combat.
That said, I've decided I don't want a different character, which means keeping Drosil as a rogue or swashbuckler. If I stick with rogue, I'd stick to the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses/Cornugon Smash tactic, just because then I'd still be able to take advantage of TWF and get some full-attack options (spring attack is a lot of feats for a single attack per round). With Slashing Grace not a viable option with daggers, I'd probably do the following feats, with scout/knife master:
1 - Two-Weapon Fighting
2 - Talent: Finesse Rogue
3 - Power Attack
4 - Talent: Weapon Training (Dagger)
5 - Dazzling Display
6 - Talent: Offensive Defense
7 - Cornugon Smash
8 - Talent: Combat Trick (Shatter Defenses)
9 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
10- Crippling Strike
He would still be the same Drosil, just a bit more effective. With 3 attacks at level 8 and 4 at level 9, as well as demoralizing his opponents as a free action from his current level and using crippling strike at level 10, he might even be significantly more so.
I know we have gone over this before, but I just wanted to ask again if there is something more effective (in regards to being *EVEN BETTER* at supporting the party) that I could do with my feats.
Here is what B'yelka has now:
Dazzling Display
Lingering Performance
Prodigy (Sing, Act)
Weapon Finesse
Weapon Focus (whip)
Maybe re-look the Human Imperious (?) Bloodline feats?
I can't recall you dazzling displaying...ever....
Other than *being* a Dazzling Display ;)
B'yelka might be more likely to use Blistering Invective to demoralize enemies, but either one should give Drosil a good opening with Shatter Defenses. I personally love the Imperious Bloodline, but it's more effective if you're a combat bard. Maestro Bloodline could be neat with Beguiling Voice, Perfect Voice and Inspire, but that's a lot of investment. Not sure how Beguiling Voice's save would scale, but being able to daze anything your level or lower is pretty cool. And with Perfect Voice you speak every language.
But I think B'yelka is fine the way she is. We wouldn't have our spicy diva any other way.
In case you missed this earlier, Jelani. =)
Jelani, as bit of retcon prior to our returning from the schloss, would Count Caromarc have been willing to create a homunculus on Dantrian's behalf at cost (1,050 gp)?
I liked how you did Waxwood so much that I'm totally hung up on the idea now.
Yeah sure, it takes two days. That's a good amount of time for a trip into town too. You've handled the Judge, I'm sure there's some shopping to do and then you can head back on the third day to chase down the Way.
Is my mithy breast plate available? If yes, Mister Almaeus can handle the accounting. ;)
And stat boosters for the warrior types :)
Don't suppose you could give us a breakdown of how much we have to spend, Dan?
B'yelka needs a MW mithril breastplate, right? That would bring the armor check penalty to 0 making her non-proficiency irrelevant.
Janos could use a +1 agile breastplate if we have the funds.
And Anton has a magical longbow coming to him, right?
Need the details on the staff before I can run out the numbers.
Janos, Divas are proficient with Medium at 5th, and heavy at 11th. It's her noodle armed physique that keeps her out of armor ;)
staff of swarming insects with 7 charges
That staff sells for 11k and none of us can fully utilise it without a UMD check.
I say sell
Okay, hopefully, this will be the last post before I make my decision. Working the numbers between rogue (scout/knife master), swashbuckler (flying blade), and swashbuckler (other), here's what I've come up with.
Rogue 7 to-hit: 5 (BAB) + 4 (Dex) + 1 (Weapon Focus (Dagger)) = +10, or +8 (PA), or +8/+8 (TWF), or +6/+6 (TWF+PA)
Rogue 7 damage: 1d4 + 2 (Str) + 4d8 (Sneak Stab) = 1d4 + 4d8 + 2 (20.5 average), or 1d4 + 4d8 + 6 (24.5 average) with Power Attack
He will have fairly reliable ways to trigger sneak attacks (between Scout's Charge, Skirmisher (at level 8), Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses, etc.). When he succeeds at a sneak attack, he can use Offensive Defense to get a bonus to AC. At level 10, he'll get Crippling Strike, which will let him damage Strength on sneak attacks. Both of these are not bad things. The bad side of rogue, however, looks even worse as he improves in levels:
Rogue 11 to-hit: 8 (BAB) + 4 (Dex) + 1 (Weapon Focus (Dagger)) = +13/+8, or +10/+5 (PA), or +11/+11/+6/+6 (TWF), or +8/+8/+3/+3 (TWF+PA)
Rogue 11 damage: 1d4 + 2 (Str) + 6d8 (Sneak Stab) = 1d4 + 6d8 + 2 (28.5 average), or 1d4 + 6d8 + 8 (34.5 average) with Power Attack
I'm not even sure I could reliably hit something at level 11 with a +8, even if it's flat-footed to me, but the 2 extra attacks on a full-round action might make up the difference.
Swashbuckler 7 to-hit: 7 (BAB) + 4 (Dex) + 1 (Weapon Focus (Dagger)) + 1 (Flying Blade Training) = +11/+6, or +9/+4 with Piranha Strike
Swashbuckler 7 damage: 1d4 + 2 (Str) + 2 (Weapon Specialization) + 1 (Flying Blade Training) + 7 (Precise Strike) = 1d4 + 12 (14.5 average), or 1d4 + 16 (18.5 average) with Piranha Strike
This improves at a slower rate than rogue, but will hit much more reliably (30% better chance to hit by level 11 for 25.5 damage (19.5 w/o piranha strike)) and it's less dependent on sneak attacks. Precision damage can be kept up indefinitely if I hold on to 1 panache at all times, so I think it's fairly reliable. Additionally, Flying Blade gets ranged attacks with daggers/starknives, and he'll be able to trigger a number of effects (including trip, disarm, etc.) at range or in melee.
Does anyone have any additional advice for me, given this?
Wow, B'yelka. I didn't realize that. That's even better armor progression than the Arcane Duelist!
Drosil, I general I don't like planning a character around *THIS PIECE OF EQUIPMENT* as you can lose that toy, or you might find one that is *better*.
Finding a +1 *sword* is not too tough. (I think we can even afford one now!) We could also look at getting you a +2 Rapier (threat, anyone?)
A Swashbuckler essentially gets KEEN on everything he is likely to use.
For help in evaluating your attack bonus v What You Can Expect, the Bestiary says typical ACs at CR 8 and 11 are 21/25. So, at +8 to hit (+6 with PA) he is only 40% likely to land any hits, at all. With PA on, he's worse than 1/3 to hit at all! So, doing a bazillion HP per hit is a lot less shiny when you can't land that shot in the first, or second place. :/
The extra attacks won't matter, much, anyway. At 11th level, +8/+8/+3/+3 is pretty poor. That's two attacks that typically need 17+ and two attacks that only hit on natural 20s. Even providing for Flanking, that's 15+ and still 20+ at 11th level, versus 'expected' AC. Even with Flanking *and* B'yelka's Inspire Courage at 11th level you are still looking at 12/12/17/17 to hit :( This is why the conventional wisdom holds that iterative attacks are all but useless. It gets worse when the iterative attacks are produced by a 3/4 base attack class. :( (this is why you hear words like, "Rogues Suck" and "Two Weapon Fighting is inferior to one two handed weapon")
One thing that suddenly jumps out at me is that Drosil only has a 18 in his DEX (15, +2 Racial, +1 Level). If you are looking at doing Piranha Strike, you might as well jump it up if you can spare the points elsewhere. (Like from STR ;) drop STR to a 12, bring DEX to a 19 (to 20 next level) it is a point less in damage, but pays itself back next level by being a point of accuracy. I know Drosil is pretty good at many things (Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Charismatic) but PF rewards specialization.
I am gunna work up a Slayer Shell right quick...
OK, Slayer 7:
Weapon Focus Dagger, TWF, ITWF, Finesse; Power Attack; Slayer Study applied.
+1 Dagger of Shapeshifter Bane:
+11/+6; d4+9+2d6 SA (avg: 18.5)
+1 Dagger
+11/+6; d4+9+2d6 SA (avg: 18.5)
This is *already* +5 to hit more than the Rogue. Full BAB and self buffing matters. For at level mobs, not counting Flanking or B'yelka' s IC, you only need 10/10/15/15 to hit your target. With Flank and IC, you need 5/5/10/10 :)
(also, you can still have trapfinding :) )
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As I've said before, Slayer is what rogues wish they were :)
In all seriousness I think they are a better option. Better to hit, more survivability, flexibility of rogue talents or ranger combat feats. All good things.
I will add that the ACG should be the new baseline, otherwise it sidelines a lot of CRB classes. (Fighter? Rogue?)
Rogue has long been seen as subpar when compared to a number of other classes and those arguements are well documented so I won't bring them up again.
Fighter though does have the advantage of the sheer number of feats available. That means they can have an amazing amount of versatility especially should they decide to invest in combat maneuvers.
I would still rather play a Druid over a Hunter, a Cleric over a Warpriest and a Bard over a Skald. Investigator has it's own niche and I like them a lot. Slayer is just great and I would certainly pick them over Rogue personally.
And Swashbucklers are great, too. Best parts of Fighters with out the utter 'must have' of Two Handed Power Attacking :)
Paladin or Warpriest?
if you were looking for a Pet class, Hunter is a (pardon the pun)BEAST!
Brawler or Monk?
Agreed, I think they are awesome. I hate that they have poor Fort progression though and it annoys me that rapiers can't be used with piranha strike >:/
CRB classes still have a place. The best archers are still Ranger and Fighter. To me, archetypes really extended the CRB classes, though I suppose that's not really playing the core content. I'm playing a Fighter (brawler) now and I'm divided whether the Brawler class would be better or not.
I do think the fighter, monk, and rogue are getting trumped in a lot of cases by the new content. Brawler, slayer, investigator, swashbuckler really took some air out of the old classes. But I don't see many people picking Bloodrager or Skald over Barbarian.
But B'yelka makes a good point, Dros. Slayer Drosil tends to beat Rogue Drosil in most everything without losing any flavor. I think you could reflavor to Slayer Drosil and not miss a beat.
staff of swarming insects with 7 charges
Mmmm. Excellent. I've got a long weekend this weekend and am currently visiting a friend, but after his three kiddos go down to bed I should be able to pop the numbers up.
CRB classes still have a place. The best archers are still Ranger and Fighter. To me, archetypes really extended the CRB classes, though I suppose that's not really playing the core content. I'm playing a Fighter (brawler) now and I'm divided whether the Brawler class would be better or not.
I do think the fighter, monk, and rogue are getting trumped in a lot of cases by the new content. Brawler, slayer, investigator, swashbuckler really took some air out of the old classes. But I don't see many people picking Bloodrager or Skald over Barbarian.
But B'yelka makes a good point, Dros. Slayer Drosil tends to beat Rogue Drosil in most everything without losing any flavor. I think you could reflavor to Slayer Drosil and not miss a beat.
She makes the even better point that I'm letting you redo your ability scores as well.
10 str, 18 dex, 13 con, 12 wis, 10 int, 8 cha as bases would serve Drosil way better than what you have now if you're going for a dex build.
Put your 4th level advancement in Con. That leaves you with: 10,20,14,10,10,10 or you could do 12,20,12,10,10,10. Either one would be better for what you're going for than his current stat array.
I also favor slayer over rogue.
I do have to say I disagree with almost everything else Janos said though. Monk (Zen Archer)s are the best archers. Bloodrager is the new barbarian. I would pick it over barbarian every single time now. No alignment restriction, with the right archetype you can get rage powers. They therefore have everything the barbarian has AND SPELLS. Plus some of the bloodline powers are just awesome. Like Demonic Bulk? Free enlarge every time you rage...uh...yes please! Brawler can also be really cool.
I seem to be different than almost everyone though in that I never say "I'm going to play a X" and then stick with one class. There's no reason to do that, and unless you're a full spellcaster your concept could probably be best represented by multiclassing. If I were going to build a "brawler" type character they would probably have levels in monk, brawler and fighter...or even other stuff.
For Drosil....Slayer 3/Barbarian (Urban Barbarian) 1/Ranger 1/Fighter 2 would probably be my choice. Or something like that. Lemme hero lab it up.
****
So this is naked, dex raging, with daggers...
Drosil
Fetchling barbarian (urban barbarian) 1/fighter 2/ranger (trapper) 1/slayer 3
N Medium outsider (native)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 17, flat-footed 11 (+7 Dex, +1 shield)
hp 64 (7 HD; 6d10+1d12+17)
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +1 (+1 vs. fear)
Defensive Abilities shadow blending; Resist cold 5, electricity 5
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 dagger +15/+10 (1d4+9/19-20) or
. . +1 shapeshifter-bane dagger +15/+10 (1d4+9/19-20 plus 2d6 vs. Shapeshifter)
Special Attacks favored enemy (undead +2), rage (6 rounds/day), sneak attack +1d6, studied target +1 (1st, move action)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 7th; concentration +7)
. . 1/day?disguise self
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 24, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +8; CMD 24
Feats Extra Rage, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Slashing Grace[ACG], Two-weapon Defense, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (dagger)
So +15/+15/+10/+10(+2 v. undead) (1d4+9)+2 v undead +1d6 sneak
No sneak, no undead average of 11.5 per stab
Sneak 15 per stab
Sneak undead 17 per stab
Sneaking an undead when all four hit 68 >:)
Sold Items/Acquired Gold
staff of swarming insects ... 11,400gp
bellows ... 0.5gp
shovel ... 1gp
sledge hammer ... 0.5gp
hatpins w/ rubies (3) ... 225gp
spyglass ... 1,000gp
208gp
345sp
4,500gp
6,000gp
23,370gp
A 6 share split yields 3,894.92gp
Kept Items
potion of displacement
potion of gaseous form
basilisk blood (2)
Previous Gold Totals
Anton ... 1,037.5gp
B'yelka ... 1,907.5gp
Dantrian ... 1,012.57gp
Drosil ... 1,015gp
Janos ... 620.73
Tibideau ... 1,052.84gp
New Totals
Anton ... 4,932.42gp
B'yelka ... 5,802.42gp
Dantrian ... 4,907.49gp
Drosil ... 4,909.92gp
Janos ... 4,515.65gp
Tibideau ... 4,947.76gp
That build also still has trapfinding and decent skills, though I didn't include them.
4,907.49gp
-1,050gp (homunculus)
-750gp (wand of magic fang)
3,107.49gp remaining, probably need to save the rest up for an amulet of mighty fists
Jelani, are Bracers of Falcons Aim permissable?
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Okay, so, based on everyone's input (thanks, by the way), I have decided to go with....(drumroll, please).
Swashbuckler (Inspired Blade) 7.
As I pointed out, and B'yelka confirmed, rogue isn't really an option going forward, as far as having attacks actually connect. Plus, everyone (myself included) recognizes the various issues associated with being dependent on sneak attacks, positioning, etc. The only way rogue was going to work was if Drosil changed archetypes to knife master/scout, and, while that would have helped his damage output, he would hardly have ever hit.
Slayer, in my opinion, suffers from some of the same issues. There are opportunities, obviously, for picking up more feats (perhaps becoming a switch-hitter slayer), but, as with rogue - worse than with a knife master/scout rogue, in fact - sneak attack damage for a slayer is not a given. I could, of course, switch out to a greatsword, go with a str-based build instead of dex, and play him more as a ranger than a rogue, but that wouldn't be Drosil. Plus, we've already got a ranger. :-)
As an aside, I, personally, prefer to stick with a single class; this goes doubly for those with less than full BAB, but still, I feel that, for the most part, they do get better the more levels you have in them. While I'm not against a dip, occasionally - I had actually played around with a Monk (MoMS/Sohei) 2/Swashbuckler 5 to pick up Crane Style/Wing/Riposte, then saw that they nerfed it since I last looked at it - there are tradeoffs.
Anyway, Swashbuckler is a class that I have, eventually, come to realize embodies what Drosil aims to be. I realize that he won't be as "skilled" this way, but with a slight reworking of stats, I think it's the best move going forward.
So, then, the question became whether to take an archetype, and, if so, which one. The two archetypes that I was most interested in were Inspired Blade and Flying Blade.
With Inspired Blade, Drosil would get Int + Cha panache each day, but would be locked into using a rapier. That rapier, however, could be used with Fencing Grace as well as power attack. With free Weapon Focus (Rapier) and Weapon Finesse, plus Extra Panache, Combat Reflexes and 18 Dex, we're looking at 5 AoO's per round and 6 panache, which can be recovered by getting a crit with his rapier, at 15-20 (with +11/+6 to hit at level 7). The only bad thing about this, of course, would be having to go buy a rapier, though in this low WBL AP, this isn't necessarily a small thing to overcome.
It's worth noting that, compared to no archetype, Inspired Blade switches out Scimitar (what I would use with no archetype, with Dervish Dance) for Rapier, gives more panache (though it's only recoverable via crits, not killing blows), and gives free Weapon Focus (Rapier) and +1 damage from Rapier Training.
The Flying Blade archetype, in my opinion, looks great on paper - being able to focus completely on daggers for range and melee, as well as being able to trip/disarm at range, is nice. In fact, I would almost assuredly go with this archetype, except that, as B'yelka noted, Slashing Grace doesn't apply to daggers (they are light, while Slashing Grace only works with one-handed weapons). This, of course, means that, to keep the damage up, I'd have to pump Drosil's Str, which isn't ideal. Also, daggers are only 17-20/x2 (w/Improved Critical), compared to rapiers' 15-20/x2 (again, w/Improved Critical).
Given these points, Inspired Blade beats out Flying Blade and, I think, straight Swashbuckler.
Oh, I missed that slashing grace doesn't work for daggers. That pretty well nerfs the last build I suggested. Glad you could find something you're happy with though, Dros.
Looks like a nice build Dros, my brother is playing one very similar in our tabletop game and having a great time with it. Looking forward to seeing Drosil 2.0! :)
In regards to shoppin, Anton would like:
Bracers of Falcons Aim 4k (if allowed, if not a Belt of Dexterity +2)
10x Cold Iron Blanch (enough for 100 arrows and cheap enough that I just use them as my staple arrow from now on)
5x Silver blanch (enough for 50 arrows or as many branch's as Dantrian can craft for me before we leave)
That leaves about 750 that I am happy to put toward anything others want or items useful for the party such as cure wands and so on.
Sounds fine to me, Anton.
B'yelka goes and gets that Mithy BP that was in town the other day ;) She has ~1600 gold left. If Dantrian does not waste the money on a Wand of "This will sub for a Amulet of Mighty Fists" (what an odd name for a spell...) he should have enough to afford the actual Amulet of mighty fists :p But then he'd be living at the largess of the Diva.
I loved the final post by Tibi! Wonderful way for use to send him off. We'll miss you!
-Posted with Wayfinder
You know Tibideau couldn't resist returning as a guest star one last time! I'll miss you guys too!
Drosil's 4,909.92gp.
Drosil will pick up a mithral chain shirt (1100gp), a +1 masterwork buckler (1155gp), and a +1 rapier (2320), totalling 4575gp. That, plus his nimble ability (+2) and dex (+4), should bring him up to AC 22.
I assume he can sell his masterwork studded leather armor for 87.5gp, and his masterwork thieves' tools for 25gp?
The question, then, is whether to sell the two daggers or keep them.
+1 Mithral Dagger = 2 (dagger) + 500 (mithral) + 2000 (enchantment) = 2502gp (or 417gp/person)
+1 Bane Dagger = 2 (dagger) + 300 (masterwork) + 4000 (enchantment) = 4302gp (or 717gp/person)
I think the shapechanger bane dagger could prove super useful in the upcoming chapter if the cover image is any indication.
Total Wealth (gear value + gp) per Character
Anton: 8,827.07
B'yelka: 8,602.42
Dantrian: 10,942.92
Drosil (prior to rebuild/new purchases/sales): 19,448.92
Janos: 15,551.80
Tibideau: 6,081.36
Avg: 11,575.75
You can have 12k, Rob.
Anton, we already have 12 silver weapon blanches that Dantrian crafted an age and a day ago - I'm thinking that's sufficient for your purposes? If not, let me know and I can craft more, but anything other than the silver blanches will take some days to get a few created.
Did Dan want the end of B'yelka's cash to get that Amulet?
The 120 arrows the will create is mire than enough I think Dan.
I'm torn in that respect, B'yelka. And I'm waffling on what exact sort of amulet to get, if any.
Dantrian's claws will count as both silver and magic soon enough on their own, so the amulet won't be helping overmuch with bypassing DR (currently my biggest concern). Elemental damage, like shock or frost, might be nice, but seems out of place. I had considered holy, but it's crappin' expensive aaaaand I think Dantrian's other half might be evil after all, and a holy amulet would pop him with a negative level.
Additionally, I've found the amulet listed at 2 different costs: 4,000 and 5,000
---
As for the wand, it is redundant if I get a base +1 amulet. I had also intended for Mosswick to be a wand-user in a pinch via use magic device, but homunculus' cha scores are abysmal and even with skill focus I can only get it up to a +7 modifier when the DC is a flat 20.
So I think I'll abandon the wand idea for the time being.
Still not sure if I want an amulet or not, though.
Janos will buy (cost):
+1 Agile Breastplate (1550gp)
MW Composite Longbow (+3str) (700gp)
Janos will sell (selling cost):
MW Chainmail (150gp)
longbow (37.5gp)
This leaves about 2452gp. Janos could look for a handy haversack, but what may be more helpful for the entire party is if we pool some resources to get a bag of holding. It holds much more than a single haversack, though it doesn't have the handy move action to retrieve function. Thoughts? This also assumes we can find one.
Alternatively, I could be selfish and buy Boots of Friendly Terrain. Keyed to forest, of course.