Redeeming a Drow

Redemption has been a theme in my Pathfinder campaign for some time. With that in mind, it shouldn't have been the surprise that it was that the PC's in my game have (at least for the time being) captured a drow and are giving her the chance to redeem herself. There's a lot to this but nothing really contributes information pertinent to my question.

I know that a particularly hateful elf can spontaneously drowify him/herself. Would a redeemed drow - one that truly becomes Good and displays that fact clearly by her deeds - eventually un-drow herself? Basically, would she become like a surface elf, lose the black skin, sight issues, special abilities, etc.?

Sorry if this has already been discussed. I honestly did look but I didn't see anything on this particular subject.

The pathfinder drow are discussed a lot in second darkness adventure path. They even had a sidenote bar about it which can be summarized like that:

Are there any good drows in Golarion?

No.

The way drow are raised make them nearly impossible to trust anybody or show any kind of altruism. You have to understand that for them, it's a way of life since they are little kids. Killing brothers and sisters or even parents to advance. All the Drows who exhibit unusual behavior such are kindness are fleshwarped , dominated or executed on the spot.

Now of course if you are playing in another setting...and you are the dm feel free to do whatever you want but that's the current stance of good drows in Golarion by the writers.

Redemption has been a theme in my Pathfinder campaign for some time. With that in mind, it shouldn't have been the surprise that it was that the PC's in my game have (at least for the time being) captured a drow and are giving her the chance to redeem herself. There's a lot to this but nothing really contributes information pertinent to my question.

I know that a particularly hateful elf can spontaneously drowify him/herself. Would a redeemed drow - one that truly becomes Good and displays that fact clearly by her deeds - eventually un-drow herself? Basically, would she become like a surface elf, lose the black skin, sight issues, special abilities, etc.?

Sorry if this has already been discussed. I honestly did look but I didn't see anything on this particular subject.

That's because there is nothing on it. Basically at the present time what you get when you redeem a Drow, is a Drizzt clone. There have been legends of artifacts whose destruction might yield shards that would reverse transform a truly repentent drow, but that's as far as it goes.

There's no historical evidence of a reverse transformation EVER occurring. Keep in mind that even the Elf-Drow switch is a rare event, and there are plenty of evil elves who never transform.

But more importantly. it's far far harder to redeem onself from evil to good, than it is to fall from Good to Evil. Being Good simply takes a lot more effort.

Well while there isn't a direct precident for this in Paizo publications, there are a few examples of monsters we might consider evil to the core and irredeemable changing. the only example I can think of at present is

So if that fits your campaign go for it. If I were running a Golarion campaign, and a player said he wanted to play a redeemed drow who had switched into a surface elf, I would say go for it....I think it would make for a neat back story....heck I might steal this idea for myself :D
My assumption of course would be that the player is simply playing mechanically an elf character with a colorful backstory.

I seem to remember, in now what was the author's name? Raymond Feist? He wrote Magicain Apprentice, Magician Master, Silver Thorn, A darkness at Sethanon, and lots of other books.

Well in one of his books there was an example of a dark elf changing into a good elf.

I hope this helps,

Elyas

Alignment, Size, and Type: While a monster's size and type remain constant (unless changed by the application of templates or other unusual modifiers), alignment is far more fluid. The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters---they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.

Non-evil drow exist by RAW. This would suggest that good drow don't spontaneously turn into elves---otherwise they wouldn't be drow. Of course, this paragraph probably wasn't written with Golarion's backstory for drow in mind. So you can really do what you want.

Personally, I would avoid having good drow spontaneously turn into elves. It sidesteps the distasteful curse of Ham-esque origin for drow on Golarion.

Bestiary, p 5 wrote:

Alignment, Size, and Type: While a monster's size and type remain constant (unless changed by the application of templates or other unusual modifiers), alignment is far more fluid. The alignments listed for each monster in this book represent the norm for those monsters---they can vary as you require them to in order to serve the needs of your campaign. Only in the case of relatively unintelligent monsters (creatures with an Intelligence of 2 or lower are almost never anything other than neutral) and planar monsters (outsiders with alignments other than those listed are unusual and typically outcasts from their kind) is the listed alignment relatively unchangeable.

Non-evil drow exist by RAW. This would suggest that good drow don't spontaneously turn into elves---otherwise they wouldn't be drow. Of course, this paragraph probably wasn't written with Golarion's backstory for drow in mind. So you can really do what you want.

Personally, I would avoid having good drow spontaneously turn into elves. It sidesteps the distasteful curse of Ham-esque origin for drow on Golarion.

The RAW suggests that non-evil Drow MAY exist, but nothing of the numbers or commonality. The history and politics of Golarion pretty much states that there are no such things as non-evil Drow states or cities. It's pretty much a give that while RAW permits them to exist, non-evil Drow are far more rare than they would be on the Forgotten Realms, rare enough on the scale of unique creatures.

In the World of Warcraft however, your dark skinned elves are the "good" ones. :)

PC drow aren't my concern.

Eltacolibre: Is the "No good drow in Golarion!" actually spelled out as such or is that a conclusion (however logical as it might be) you've drawn? If a demon can be redeemed (as in the WotR AP), I can't see how a drow can't be... particularly if it is removed from the culture you've described.

LazarX: I might be an aberration but I've played RPG's since 1978... but I *HATE* reading fiction. My players love it because they know the plots they get in my games aren't going to be rehashed novel plots... although, more than once, players have said that something in my game is just like it is in some book. My point is, I don't even know what a Drizzt clone would be other than a dual sabre wielding big ball of angst. The NPC in question here is a female wizard who spent the last couple of centuries as a slave. Not sure how similar that might be!

Elyas: You brought up a perfect example. As for those books, I'd check them out for reference material but I was oping for something more Golarion related.

Vivianne: I lean the same way you're saying regarding any transformations. It's a one-way trip. Maybe it's like the bleaching, in that regard. If there was something 'official' to indicate otherwise, I would have gone with it. From what I'm seeing here, that doesn't seem to be the case.

It is spelled out p. 58 in Second Darkness AP Armaggedeon Echo , it is an actual sidebar with the question on top "ARE THERE GOOD DROW?". I don't think that I can quote much from that article. First paragraph begins with "No..."

Use a helm of opposite alignment on the drow and Detect Magic it till it stops pinging (because it worked).

Train the now LG and repentant drow in the ways of Iomedae or Ragathiel's paladins. Hilarity ensues.

A drow Paladin of Torag could be fun too :-)

It is spelled out p. 58 in Second Darkness AP Armaggedeon Echo , it is an actual sidebar with the question on top "ARE THERE GOOD DROW?". I don't think that I can quote much from that article. First paragraph begins with "No..."

And no one should be beholden to Paizo's circa 2008 fear of Drizzt...

Anyway, that sidebar ends by talking about the possibility of drow exhibiting "good behavior". So even though it opens with the word "no", it ends with the possibility of a good drow. Presumably roccojr's party's drow isn't in a position where she'd be handed over to fleshwarpers if she becomes good.

So is this for a Golarion campaign? Regardless, its really up to whatever you want to happen in your campaign. Do you want a drow to transform? Do you have to follow the rules that you can't find to the letter? Lots of things to ask yourself on this long moral journey... Or not. I mean its all up to you, hey.

PC drow aren't my concern.

Eltacolibre: Is the "No good drow in Golarion!" actually spelled out as such or is that a conclusion (however logical as it might be) you've drawn? If a demon can be redeemed (as in the WotR AP), I can't see how a drow can't be... particularly if it is removed from the culture you've described.

Save that "removing someone from a culture" isn't the easy solution that you think it is. It's nearly impossible to remove the stamps that are put on a person from their cultural rearing. A person who is raised for example in a bigoted family generally becomes a bigoted adult, who will look for the same in a mate, and together they will raise bigoted children who perpetuate the cycle. "You can take the man out of the Bronx, but you can't take the Bronx out of the man."

Like I said earlier, as the dm he can do whatever he wants. Just was citing the only article talking about it.

Also, in the Second Darkness AP Endless Night, on page 54 a CN drow (Jhondron Hois, CN drow bard 4/fighter 6) is mentioned.

Presumably roccojr's party's drow isn't in a position where she'd be handed over to fleshwarpers if she becomes good.

Yeah... she definitely isn't. The party had no idea that these antagonists were drow for the 3+ year duration of the campaign. They only discovered it upon entering their sanctum... which was a spell-created demi-plane that had been expended over the last couple of centuries, not somewhere in the Darklands.

Within the sanctum were slaves... a few of whom were drow. The particular drow in question was a wizard that helped the bad guys but surrendered once the head honchos were killed. Redemption has been a major theme throughout the campaign so the paladin allowed her a chance to speak. In their conversation, which she hoped she could use to bargain for her life, he offered that no information she had would save her and that her one chance to survive was to try to redeem herself.

She admitted, flat out, that she did not instinctively feel any need to redeem herself... but she did instinctively feel a need to survive. Seeing that returning home more than likely meant being killed or, worse, fleshcrafted, and if she could endure centuries of slavery to avoid either such fate, then she could endure whatever the paladin was suggesting. So it isn't like it's a done deal or that she'll succeed at this point.

So is this for a Golarion campaign? Regardless, its really up to whatever you want to happen in your campaign. Do you want a drow to transform? Do you have to follow the rules that you can't find to the letter? Lots of things to ask yourself on this long moral journey... Or not. I mean its all up to you, hey.

Sure... I know that the GM can do what he wants... but if there was anything already supplied on the subject in official material, I'd at least like to know. At this point, I'm very sure there isn't.

Save that "removing someone from a culture" isn't the easy solution that you think it is. It's nearly impossible to remove the stamps that are put on a person from their cultural rearing. A person who is raised for example in a bigoted family generally becomes a bigoted adult, who will look for the same in a mate, and together they will raise bigoted children who perpetuate the cycle. "You can take the man out of the Bronx, but you can't take the Bronx out of the man."

That's getting a bit deep... and certainly isn't an absolute, regardless. Exceptions exist. In fact, I like to think of myself as one.

Someone had indicated that a drow that strayed from its traditional way of life would be killed or fleshcrafted. The point I was trying to make by saying she'd be removed from that culture was that this NPC wouldn't have to worry about being killed or fleshcrafted because she'd be physically removed from those possibilities. I wasn't trying to say that moving to New Jersey would take the Bronx out of her.

FWIW, this was never an "against the drow!" campaign. It just so happened that a couple of the main bad guys were drow... and now they're dead. There aren't likely to be any more in the campaign. If the PC's had cleaned house, as I thought they would, even THIS drow would be dead.

There is some weirdness for the drow of golarion; my understanding is that "regular" elves came become drow, so why not the opposite? I've just finished an arc in a campaign that was very much "against the drow", though even the GM wanted us to consider most of them neutral.

I can understand the desire to avoid "drizzt clones" (while I do quite like the series, I would never play that sort of character), I say do whatever you want with drow; I've got a write-up for a campaign idea that paints drow as heavily lawful good (though still tied to demons, mainly because they spend their time trying to contain them, which makes them look a lot worse than they are). Still, I dont like being constrained by another settings limits. Everything I run is run in "genericland", the land of whatever the heck I want.

Just a bit of factchecking real quick:

That sidebar from Second Darkness was not declaring that non-evil drow didn't exist. It was primarily about suggesting that players put aside good drow PCs for a different AP.

Non-evil drow canonically exist in Golarion. The biggest gentlemens club in Zirnakaynin is run by a CN male drow operating within drow society even.

Good drow do not change back into elves; there isn't a spontaneous transformation in the other direction. This is honestly a good thing, because it avoids the really unfortunate notion of "now you are redeemed! Be black no longer!"

The Black Butterfly exists. And not only does she neatly fill a Eilistraee-like role in her own unique way, her followers M.O. and the very Obediences themselves are practically tailor made for drow heroes trying to get by on the surface.

Good drow do not change back into elves; there isn't a spontaneous transformation in the other direction. This is honestly a good thing, because it avoids the really unfortunate notion of "now you are redeemed! Be black no longer!"

It doesn't really change the fact that unfortunately Paizo continued the crypto-racist model of fair skinned Elves descending to evil by becoming Elves of Color.

I played a CN drow in a two and a half year game. She was hateful, manipulative, vengeful, and tried really hard to be good, but managed to be 'arguably not evil' at best.

Her main problem was a combination of a genuine will to do good and a compulsive need to use the consequences of those good acts as leverage for personal gain.