If needed and allowed I'd swap Suny out for Arabeth
An Oracle/Alchemist I've generated to experiment with such rules before I played her in a pen and paper "World wound" game.
Of course, PbP speeds being what they are...the Pen and Paper version is now something like fifth level and the PbP character has spent a day in "Carrion Crown".
Suny, on the recruitment thread the GM was only allowing Core Races. Arabeth is a Plumekith (Garuda-Blooded Aasimar). Will you be changing her race for this game?
I will attempt to stabilise myself with the Con checks until you arrive. Hopefully, I will not go too low. I am at all of your disposal. I decided that I am not re-building hack. If he does not die, then I will continue to advance him as an Invulnerable Rager. If he bites it, then I will create a Warpriest from the Advanced Class Playtest.
Dang...
I was under the impression that Dain had recruitment guidelines that did not accept any caster roles, except Cloistered cleric - do I remember it incorrectly?
I think that was in relation to a particular level? In any event, we can always ask.
Yah... I do remember the caster comments...but was pointing out that the board's dice roller is..well..rolling over us. :P
Yeah...not much we can do about that, but I agree, we need healing, and these fights will be more tolerable.
Can we really say we were harmed by the dice roller? I mean, I don't remember it being that dramatic.
Hack, either healing or we need some serious review of feats - and if you drop your invulnerable raging, another one may pop up all of sudden ;)
Fact is, we need to let this absence of immediately available healing sink in - and perhaps change our approach to every single fight, until it comes naturally?
It still hurts though...
I wonder what is the daily rate for a cloistered cleric these days? :D
Dain GM seemed amenable to a re-build of Hack as a Skald which has Bard casting abilities, but I decided against that. Perhaps he would be ok with a Warpriest from the same Advanced Class Guide? Invulnerable Rager is not a feat, it is an archetype. The feats are pretty standard for my build.
Hey, don't insult me man! :D
I know perfectly well what an Invulnerable Rager is!
Hey! So first thing - I'm taking a break from work right now at the library and able to post a bit. But I'd like to address some comments and thoughts.
Mainly, though, I'd like some good feedback from you all after reading this.
So to start, the initial plan during recruitment was to keep almost all casters to at least a minimum. However, to allow for some healing I allowed the concept for a Cloistered Cleric to exist - but only if the players started him on level 3.
In other words, you'd at least have to take 2 levels of a non-caster in the first place to effectively "nerf" the power that a full caster can get, because for anyone who's played a level 20 character with equal stats - a straight level 20 caster who wins initiative normally wins the fight in about 1-2 rounds tops.
I don't really like that, but I don't dislike magic completely in a game, I just wanted to come up with some better balance.
As I thought about it, it occurred to me that having caster's as a "prestige class" in general might be allowable. In other words - wizards could one day happen - but since their spell-casting abilities were nerfed, I'd give them some other more mundane but story bonuses to offset the lower spellcasting ability.
However, I haven't decided fully on that. If I do, anyone interested is able to "tweak" their character to merge with the requirements of a prestige class if they want to try being a caster. But more on that later...
In any case, in the game you will eventually meet wizards - but they are supposed to be mysterious, unusual - the kind of being that you meet and say "Um - so where exactly did that guy get supernatural powers from, if not from the gods; and if you can kill someone with only his mind, can I really trust you, even though you say you're my friend? What if I piss you off and you suddenly just kill me with your mind, how can I stop that? I can't - so I'm very, very nervous around you; even though we're friends."
This is to reflect my opinion of how magic would probably be interpreted in real life. But as for players playing a caster class - I'm still thinking about options.
Healing is a primary thing - it's very important to a fight, I know that very well. Even when I play fighters I try to at least take ranks in Healing if possible simply so I can offer some ability for mundane healing.
However, healing - like most magic (in my opinion) often becomes a crutch. Players rely more on magic than they do on tactics from the beginning.
So in other words (for example) since there was no healers in the party, I legitimately assumed that when you saw 20 goblins ambush you, you'd be running back to the boat - and the people on the boat would be shooting at the goblins - you'd row out into the bay to the safety of the ship - still shooting at the goblins - and that the goblins you didn't kill right away with your first set of arrows would than melt into the trees and then you'd sneak back some other way and take them out guerrilla style.
That didn't happen, but I think it was mainly because people were operating under the default assumptions of how 6 3rd level character would deal with a bunch of goblins. But without healing, there could have been real problems - and nearly was.
So what I'm trying to do is create a sense of a more "realistic" fantasy setting. More like "Game of Thrones" instead of - say - Harry Potter.
But I think the real issue is mainly tactics, not necessarily the actual combats. Part of the reason I NPC'd Suny's attack was to demonstrate a little bit of some tactics and strategy in sort of a "Step-by-step" type of thinking. I mean, not only my action, but I also posted up what went through my head in terms of relative probability via dice rolls; not just in terms of my hit probability, but also damage done - and what that likely means (including assumptions on a basic "Point Buy" for a standard 4th level Cleric - if he was a competent cleric, for example) and so on.
That's also one of the reasons' I give monsters Max HP. I'm assuming that all of you guys are doing exactly what I did when I NPC'd Suny for each attack action. That you're studying your opponent, plotting things out - that sort of thing.
I think if that happens more often that it would negate the "need" for magical healing so often.
HOWEVER -
This leads to a big question for you guys.
That type of combat and tactics is interesting to me, it's a different type of gaming and fighting - it's what I assume people do when they sit down to a Play-by-Post game in general, when there's hyperlinks to sites that spell everything out.
The question is - is that level of complexity in terms of strategy too intimidating, or would you guys like me to take it down a little and make things a little less "tactic-intensive"?
If I make things a little less "tactic-intensive" than having more access to traditional healing magic will certainly happen; as well as creating some "prestige classes" via other magic users for higher level - less spell-casting, but other different bonuses.
But at this point that's kind of up to you guys. I'm more into playing games like Lord of the Rings; Game of Thrones and (on a similar vein) Assasin's Creed or Walking Dead - when there's lot of good social RP but there's also crazy battles that seem epic enough that some times you just got to get the heck of there.
But let me know what you guys think - this is a perfect time to make a few tweaks to the game as we're right on a good "jumping off" point for the next stage.
I have an NPC cleric that was ready for you, if you needed one, to help you on your quest for healing. I can do that, if you need one and no one really wants to create a nerfed healer. But let me know, so I know how you want things to go in the future - at this point there are no hard decisions. I'm not saying "This is how it HAS to be" - I'm saying let's put options on the table and talk about where we'd all like it to go to have the most fun.
That said, I'm eager to see more feedback from all of you.
That is about what I anticipated, Dain GM. I think that valid arguments can be made for the inclusion of one non-arcane, divine healing PC in the group. This could aid us with some in combat healing while still keeping tactics necessary at the forefront. At the same time, we could keep the arcane casters off the table.
That is about what I anticipated, Dain GM. I think that valid arguments can be made for the inclusion of one non-arcane, divine healing PC in the group. This could aid us with some in combat healing while still keeping tactics necessary at the forefront. At the same time, we could keep the arcane casters off the table.
Sounds good, Hack :)
However, I should say this now - arcane casters will eventually be out there (but in a long time from now).
They'll be a lot less powerful than a standard arcane caster would be; but again - consider them like a default "Prestige Class". It's something that won't happen until much higher levels, but it's a "flavor" thing eventually - just like undead, were-beasts; ogre; trolls; giants and so on - there is a flavor element out there; so meeting an evil wizard, or meeting a good wizard who can enchant a weapon... this is not something you'll have to worry about for a while; and certainly not very frequently; but it can happen in the future (unless you're all opposed to it - that's another story; but that's why this is the "discussion" thread :)
That said - does anyone have any interest in playing a character who is a divine caster? Remember, it will be nerfed anyway, so if you play one, you'll need a caster who has some decent stats/feats to reflect it.
Again, nothing's really set in stone; I'm totally open to all feedback and I can be very flexible in my concept and design from here on out.
Okay - got to go; I'll look forward to comments from everyone later tonight.
Could you expand a little more on how the Divine caster would be nerfed? I am pretty sure that someone would be willing to take it on. For instance, is the Warpriest from the Advanced Class Playtest that I sent to you in play? This is a cross between a Fighter and a Cleric.
I have no issue if someone wants to play a modified/nerfed divine caster as long as we keep to the core races. I was happy when Aasimars and Tieflings were ruled out of this game. I think that was/is a fair call, especially in a low magic setting.
I agree, and I think that arcane casters can be left out until introduced later, as well.
Agreed re arcane casters being left out till much later in game.
At group: Do any of you want to use one of your free re-rolls on your will saves re the negative energy (like Stefan did)?
At this point, if we continue as is (and depending on what happens to Geser via his rolls), there are at least three down (Hack, Polux and Suny) and Taissa may have to construct some kind of travois or something to take you down to the shore, haul you into the longboat and then Stefan and she row you back to The Scorpion. She may need Stefan's aid to drag the travois as we have no pack horse.
I don't think Hack can re-roll as he was already unconscious prior to the negative channel, but Polux or Suny?
Apologies for the multiple postings but wanted to get them out of the way now because I have to work and didn't want to hold up proceedings.
As to the healing, yes, it can be a crutch, but it is also there for the bad run of die rolls. It really sucks getting killed by multiple crits in one round from skewed statistical rolls. I am perfectly fine with a limited divine caster.
@Hack, I still think you should reconsider Raging Vitality. The ability to not drop out of rage if knocked out can be a life saver especially at mid levels where the drop will outright kill you.
@Dain GM, I will avail myself of the option to slightly tweak my character because of the changes. Essentially, I am going to bring up my damage output so that I can be more of threat to the enemies so they can not just ignore me in the fights. This will take some of the pressure off of Hack (I will probably just change my Swashbuckler levels to Fighter-Weapon Master levels as Wepon Master is more in tune with Stefan's persona). This will allow me to replace Slashing Grace with Power Attack. Let me know if you are OK with that.
Overall, I think we did well considering the real constraints (pun intended) that were on half the party. Entangled especially hits me hard as I am a DEX fighter (essentially -4 to attack).
At group: Do any of you want to use one of your free re-rolls on your will saves re the negative energy (like Stefan did)?
At this point, if we continue as is (and depending on what happens to Geser via his rolls), there are at least three down (Hack, Polux and Suny) and Taissa may have to construct some kind of travois or something to take you down to the shore, haul you into the longboat and then Stefan and she row you back to The Scorpion. She may need Stefan's aid to drag the travois as we have no pack horse.
I don't think Hack can re-roll as he was already unconscious prior to the negative channel, but Polux or Suny?
This will sound strange but... I actually liked the mental image I painted of Polux going down :D
@Polux: Chuckles. No worries then. :)
I'm keeping beastmaster, but playing around with her skills a little, once Taissa levels. I may even swap out a feat. As mentioned before, when Daya levels she will be able to speak -- in Common -- in simplest terms. But still, she will be able to communicate with you all in some way.
I don't want to be the main/primary healer because in all the games so far my characters have had to do just that and I want to do something else in this game. I have Taissa set up as an aid, but she isn't going to be primary healer. If Suny or Geser want to take up a limited divine caster role, that's great. Suny, you could always make an Elven Oracle/Alchemist or some such (re Arabeth) ... Just not an Aasimar one. That way you're not too far gone from your original concept re race. It will be strange to start calling your character a different name, let alone be a different race. ;) btw, I'm not saying either Suny or Geser have to be a divine healer, just a suggestion.
Do people want to go with Dain GM's npc cleric?
Nope, I don't think I am going the divine way this time either :D
Also checked on the classes from Tripod and... There are some really customizable that could maybe work out sweet. MAybe...
I am however fixated on playing my Knifemaster, though I am definitely pondering Dain's version of the Bard.
I am trying to make Polux more resourceful, mobile, and deadly - again I am avoiding the typical frontliner role, but hoping he can deal solidly with it if it happens every once in a while.
I always saw Polux as second line - Hack comes in first then Polux and Stefan.
But dealing solidly would be nice, so I'm all for that.
I think once Taissa is done in camp then back on the ship, she will need a good ol' rest.
Taissa's a sturdy lass :D
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Polux. ;D
*zzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzz*
Anything to add regarding what's on the discussion board, Suny? Since your player can answer at this time while your character slumbers. ;)
;)
Well...getting a healer would be nice. (>_>)
Though whether an NPC run by the DM or seeing if any one wants to play an 'Un-optimized' healer?
I'm actually kind of interested to see if any one would volunteer for such a role? Maybe some one would be interested enough in making a 'Dual-class' something?
I promise to work on my communication and combat skills...:)
If I get the go ahead for a Warpriest, I will rebuild Hack.
Answers to some basic questions as I read them –
Regarding Warpriests –
I’m not really sure the flavor is what I’m looking for. I’m seeing priests typically as more “bookworms” rather than warriors. However, that doesn’t preclude clerics from having martial skills. Multi-classing can work a bit for that; there are options that can make things available, but warpriests are a bit more potent in terms of magic than what I’m looking for.
”Nerfs” to Clerics
Nothing too fancy. The chief issue was allowing the primary caster stat (likely Wisdom) to also be applied to Diplomacy and Intimidate; as well as the Charisma modifier.
Also, every 3 levels the Cleric could take one Scholar Trait, or perhaps an additional Meta-magic trait once every four levels instead. Something nice to offset the lack of spellcasting and the fact that the cleric would be two levels behind.
Finally, starting on level 1 and every other level, a Cleric would gain a +1 Circumstance Bonus to Diplomacy Checks specifically made to bargaining for better goods if the person in question was supportive of the Cleric’s Faith. This would switch to a -1 if the person in question was opposed to the Cleric’s faith. Of course, if the priest knew the person he was bargaining with was opposed to his faith, he could of course try to disguise his faith.
That’s pretty much all I could think of that would be different – nothing too fancy, it just makes a priest a bit more intimidating.
Stefan
I’m totally cool with the changes you suggested. My only real issue at this point is to unfortunately switch the Crane Style thing to a straight -4 penalty, as opposed to negating a specific attack a round.
An option might be instead to negate the first attack that hits you. So far, that’s logical – you may get hit for one point of damage, and the second attack may be a natural 20 for max damage – if you could only pick one, of course you’d dodge the second attack. But how would you know to do it until after the damage is done?
What do you think of that solution via Crane Style – that you are forced to evade the first attack no matter how much or how little damage it does. But you can’t pick and choose?
Does that seem like a reasonable compromise?
Polux
Regarding the staying down thing? You’re ridiculous! ‘Nuff said ;)
Taissa
Who knows – maybe you could give Daya some ranks in Healing and she could aid you ;)
Back to Polux
If you elect the Rogue option, I’d at least recommend some unconventional skills for your guy. For example, upping your Heal Check, your Use Magic Device Check – and probably take at least one or two ranks in Craft: Alchemy and possibly another Craft Check – such as Weapons or Carpentry (possibly Poisons).
Goblins who don’t use poisoned arrows at you from a distance were very nice goblins. Later on they get less nice :)
Suny
I can do the NPC Cleric, too - as I did Kristin - it's an easy addition.
Of course, it does take a cut of the loot if I do...
Clerics are generally forced to dual-class; but I did a really fun Cleric;Rogue once - one of my favorite characters - I built in him high school, actually - it was a blast. But the point is, it can be done.
What would you think about it yourself, if you could play it?
Geser
Well, I saw your post on the board – you did stabilize.
Hack - regarding warpriest
Any thought of something like a Shaman? It has a good flavor, but it's up to you...
As an archetype for Barbarian, or is that a separate class?
Shaman is a separate class - it's in fact int he Advanced Class book.
It takes all the complication of spellcasting for Witches and combines it with all the combat effectiveness of oracles.
But it seems like a really neat concept class to play for a Barbarian Caster; despite all the ridiculous complications it has...
I mentioned Warpriest because it is only divine and retains a great deal of melee capabilities. I do not think this group can afford to totally do away with that for the benefits of a purely divine caster. The Shaman is a combination of divine and arcane, being half Oracle and half Witch. It does not seem to match with a totally divine addition.
”Nerfs” to Clerics
Nothing too fancy. The chief issue was allowing the primary caster stat (likely Wisdom) to also be applied to Diplomacy and Intimidate; as well as the Charisma modifier.
Also, every 3 levels the Cleric could take one Scholar Trait, or perhaps an additional Meta-magic trait once every four levels instead. Something nice to offset the lack of spellcasting and the fact that the cleric would be two levels behind.
The first one I don't think I am too fond of. I think it makes it an unfair deal to whomever wants to chose Diplomacy to invest in (*hint*)
The second... After looking at the Scholar traits, I think it may turn things around and become too strong ;)
As far as Polux goes, I had intended to invest on some of those, even though Heal really doesn't give me much bang for my buck as he is not very wise. UMD of course ;) And I am looking into crafting yes, though none of those fit really well with the character concept - I guess I can bend it a little though :D
Just realized Polux has no traits...
Dain, I am totally fine with using the new version of Crane Wing. I have to choose which attack to apply it to before they roll (which will usually be against the primary attack) and I only get a +4 dodge bonus instead of auto deflection. I was working under the assumption that would be how it works.
@Polux: Out of the three traits the GM suggested to you, I like Dangerously Curious the best.
@Geser: Okay, Taissa has roped you into helping her with the travois and lifting the unconscious. I hope you don't mind but she couldn't do it all, alone. :)
@Dain GM: Will we officially level up once we are back aboard The Scorpion?
@Geser: Okay, Taissa has roped you into helping her with the travois and lifting the unconscious. I hope you don't mind but she couldn't do it all, alone. :)
Taissa - I tossed up an answer about leveling - but as for the travois, I'd strongly recommend getting the full notes on the camp before loading people up - just in case.
Unfortunately, I can't give information because I'm not sure what was being searched for. If all three rolls were one building, 2 buildings and general grounds/bodies/specific bodies/specific locations - and so on.
Guys -
I don't know if you picked up on this, but I like details in the posts.
A lot. Lots of details are really good.
Also, when I don't get details I'm not sure how to answer questions. The more details the better is all.
Okay, got to go - I'm wiped out completely and ultra-tired and need to sleep. I had a huge meal of meat sauce with sausage, pork, beef, veal, and chicken with tomato-basil-cream sauce with Parmesan cheese served over pene pasta and lots to drink and chocolates for dessert and 3 hours of Game of Thrones and company - (also it took me an hour to cook all of that).
I'm sorry about that, but I look forward to answering questions when I see them.
Thanks!
Why do we need to get the lay of the camp before setting the three on the travois? Can we not simply leave on the track we arrived on? I'm a little confused why it needs to be so hard to get out of the village the way we came in.
What checks are you looking for, Dain GM?
In regard to questions, I asked if the lodge had windows to look inside? Or does it simply have a door?
I need to know if I am rebuilding Hack at this point, or not. I will go Warpriest if I can convince you to agree, Dain GM? If not, I am not to thrilled with multi-classing to add Clerical healing. Are there any other options?
Taissa
1. There are no windows on the huts. They’re made of a crude mixture of mud and thatch; it’s too cold to build windows on the walls (they’re not very easy to insulate), and in any case, they don’t have glass for such things in such a tiny village.
2. The idea of getting the lay of camp first before taking the time to load up the bodies on travois had two potential advantages – firstly, if you found something to heal the wounded, it may not be necessary to take the time to load them on the travois if there was a potion for them (potentially). Secondly, if you spent more time ignoring what’s in the huts, it may be that whatever is in there decides to simply take the initiative on you all as you’re all gathered around the bodies and making and preparing the travois with a sneak attack on you. Of course, that may not happen at all – but I was merely suggesting some tactics for the future. In other words – prepare for any eventuality as at this time you don’t know.
There are other advantages, too, but your character wouldn't know what they were at this time.
3. Regarding the checks I’m looking for – to be honest, I can’t tell you. In other words, if I said “Well, I need you to make sure you roll to see if there’s traps around’ – well, that would simply mean that maybe everybody might say “Hey, I’m rolling to check for traps – yikes! I got a natural 2 – well, maybe someone else wants to also check, but not by aiding me, but just doing it themselves because my roll was really bad and even an aid check won’t be very good.”
EDIT: Okay, so mainly the thing is you guys were on a time budget to do something. There was something important that could have happened, but basically between loading and building the travois and the three searches on the body of the priest and than on the main lodge, it’s done. Sorry for the pressure, I just wanted to know what you were doing with the time you had allotted is all.
Now I know.
Hack
Regarding the warpriest – It’s really, really powerful to me. We both know how powerful that would be if you mixed it with your current class, and that’s beyond things like how the flavor would work (you sly boots, I know exactly how pimp that class would be if you used it with your Rager ;)
For now, I’m still going to have to say “no”, but I may allow it later levels if things get crazy (though hopefully that won’t happen). So let’s just leave it on the pile for “Maybe” for later, though.
As for Healing, maybe just going with Use Magic Device and Heal Checks for now is the only way things can be done? I mean, I've played in RPG's that didn't have a Cleric or Healer - it's not easy, but not impossible.
However
The thing is - for now I'm heading out to have lunch with my family and spend some time with them on my off day today. Give me some time to chew things over, I may do a complete 180 here while I'm out and about and when I get back allow things to change. But just give me some time to think things over a bit.
Okay - I'll see you all later tonight.
@Dain GM: I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. I was not planning on adding the Warpriest to Hack. I agree that would be way too powerful. I was thinking of making Hack a 4th level Warpriest exclusively with a re-build. This would keep some of the melee capabilities that Hack currently provides the group while adding in the divine healing that the new class provides. Hack, as a Barbarian Invulnerable Rager would no longer exist. He would be Hack, the Warpriest.
@Dain GM: I think you may have misunderstood my meaning. I was not planning on adding the Warpriest to Hack. I agree that would be way too powerful. I was thinking of making Hack a 4th level Warpriest exclusively with a re-build. This would keep some of the melee capabilities that Hack currently provides the group while adding in the divine healing that the new class provides. Hack, as a Barbarian Invulnerable Rager would no longer exist. He would be Hack, the Warpriest.
Well, I'm still not sure, but even so - caster's can't start until level 3 to keep the casting aspect down a bit. What would your classes be for level 1 and 2?
Also, what would your "domains" be?
Okay, I need to get going, but I'll check things over when I get back.
Talk to you then!