Ow, my mind!

A few questions about mind affecting spells.

Spells like Dominate Mind dont stop when the BBEG is killed right? It doesnt end until the spell expires or something stops the spell (Dispel)?

If someone is affected by a mind control type spell (like suggestion or dominate person) and then are affected by another mind affecting spell (like charm person or hypnotism) what happens? Does the higher level spell override the lower or what?

The DM threw things like this at us tonight, Im the barbarian (and the only melee character in the group really) and when I failed those will saves, the others in our group started trying to mind control me back (also being annoyed when Im doing my utmost to kill the party when I get commanded to do exactly that - which kind of annoyed me given that thats what I HAVE to do; thats what those spells do). I think our DM may not have known exactly how to handle it and I dont either so I figured Id ask.

I am sorry I do not have an answer. I just had to chime in that my favorite case of witnessing someone pass a saving throw was when a barbarian waved a hand around his head. When my caster shouted out a warning to the others that we were the target of a mental assault, the barbarian said,
"Oh! That was a spell? I thought it was a fly."

higher level spell override the lower is the rule of thumb as in light vs darkness or see invisible and detect magic vs invisibility

and i would say with no dominatrix (lol that's what spellcheck changed it to) the spell would end

higher level spell override the lower is the rule of thumb as in light vs darkness or see invisible and detect magic vs invisibility

and i would say with no dominatrix (lol that's what spellcheck changed it to) the spell would end

I ask because the duration of Dominate Person for instance is in days per level. If you kill the BBEG shouldnt the spell still go out to its duration's end?

as it says in the spell description:
If you don't spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination.

so shouldnt it continue but you get to make new rolls for each day after it dies? Its a pretty nasty save or suck spell

it is and i looked it over before i post that as well as the magic chapter but if the dude is dead his spell should end but that is my RAI

Anyone else? Or is that RAW?

BBEG dies, spell ends?

A few questions about mind affecting spells.

Spells like Dominate Mind dont stop when the BBEG is killed right? It doesnt end until the spell expires or something stops the spell (Dispel)?

If someone is affected by a mind control type spell (like suggestion or dominate person) and then are affected by another mind affecting spell (like charm person or hypnotism) what happens? Does the higher level spell override the lower or what?

Looking in the Magic Section of the CRB, I was hoping to find something definitive on how the death of a spellcaster relates to the remaining duration of spells cast by them. Nothing that really deals with it, though I did find a rule for Multiple Mental Control Effects under the Combining Magical Effects Section. It seems to suggest that Compulsion spells, like Dominate Person, Suggestion, Hypnotism, that remove the character's ability to act, would trump Charm effects, like Charm Person. Otherwise, both controllers make opposed Charisma Checks. And in your scenario, where one controller is dead (hopefully the BBEG), then the remaining controller would automatically succeed such an opposed test.

As for the Duration part of your problem, based on the standard rules, I'd say the Domination would last until the duration expired. However, how that would play out in game is a question. Dominate is a telepathic link. If one end is broken (dies), what happens? With no orders, does the Dominated character sit still and vegetate until the duration expires? Do they continue to follow the last received order as best as they can? Or would they be free to act as normal, as they are receiving no more orders? Based on the following ;

...Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)...

Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane...

If you don't spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination...

I would say that the Dominated character continues to try and fulfill the last orders given to it by the Dominator, to the best of its abilities, to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival. Once such an order in complete, it could not gain new orders, and would be free to act normally again. That or they would stand still, except to do things necessary for day-to-day survival, until the duration runs out, but that seems unnecessarily cruel.

Note though, how the character follows those orders could differ depending on GM interpretation. For example, the BBEG could have ordered the Barbarian to protect them. After the BBEG died, the Barbarian could be stuck protecting a corpse until the duration ends. Or, with the end of the BBEG's life, it could be seen as having nothing left to protect and be free to act normally until new orders are given. YMMV.

I suspect the most common Dominate command is 'kill your allies'...

I suspect the most common Dominate command is 'kill your allies'...

Having never come up against it, I wouldn't know. Seems reasonable though. In which case, the character would continue to attempt to kill their allies, to the best of their ability, until such a time as ;

(a) All their allies are dead
(b) They pass one of the additional saving throws, either from the original caster not spending at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, or from taking actions against its nature
(c) Dominate Person's duration runs out
(d) Dominate Person is dispelled (through spells such as Break Enchantment) or suppressed (through spells such as Protection From X)
(e) Another Enchantment [Compulsion] spell is cast on the character (and they fail their saving throw), at which point the original Dominate Person spell would lose the Opposed Charisma check to maintain control, and the new spell would decide the character's behaviour (though I suppose that's up for debate. If the Dominate Person's duration and spell DC remain the same, decided at the time of casting, would the Opposed Charisma Check to maintain control retain its difficulty based on the original casting as well?)

Of note is that the character will try their best to kill their allies. Meaning, if the allies leave/disappear (Invisibility, Teleport, what have you), then they will proceed to hunt down their allies, PC & NPC, until such a time as one of the above scenarios is fulfilled.

Had the situation come up with a vampire, in mid-dungeon. We played it that the death of the vampire ended the spell. Otherwise, our only available alternative was briefly suppressing the effect with Protection from Evil and trying to isolate the character and waiting (several days?) until it expired, which isn't nice when you're in a hurry.

I can't believe that I am the first to post this.

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject's ability to act. Mental controls that don't remove the recipient's ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

You can find the relevant rules here.

I suspect the most common Dominate command is 'kill your allies'...

Ironically enough, that command by what it says in the OGC would give you a new save.

here

Clarification

Yeah; if you force a dominated creature to do something against its nature, it gets that new saving throw. If it makes that saving throw, it throws off the ENTIRE dominate effect and gets to go back to doing what they want.

As for what constitutes "against its nature," that varies from creature to creature. For a PC, I would say that forcing a PC to attack another PC would normally be against a PC's nature and would allow a new saving throw (unless, of course, that PC has already displayed a propensity for attacking other PCs). For most monsters, it would depend. A lot of monsters are just violent anyway and attacking others of their kind is normal. It's left vague deliberately so each time it comes up, the GM gets to interpret it as needed for the specific target in question.

I can't believe that I am the first to post this.

Magic Chapter Excerpt wrote:

Multiple Mental Control Effects: Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as spells that remove the subject's ability to act. Mental controls that don't remove the recipient's ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

You can find the relevant rules here.

You arent. Someone linked it up above, but the rules are fairly vague. If youre Dominate Personed against the party but someone casts charm person to try and stop you, should that work? Or should you have to use suggestion/hypnotize? The rules (the quoted block) dont really say, nor does that section say anything about what happens when the caster dies

I didn't say "first to link" did I? I said "first to post." ;P

Dominate effects overcome charm effects. It doesn't matter if he regards you as a friend if his actions are still compelled. At best, it might grant him an extra save against dominate for doing something he might not normally do (attacking a friend).

It's also important to note that charm is not a control effect. The target is still free-willed. It merely changes the target's perception of you.

Thaqts why I asked the question in the first place, so Id have a place to direct people to in the case of this coming up again. And given that the DM has figured out that the barbarian's main weakness is will, and the fact that our Sorcerer is trying to counter this by picking spells that mind control as well and our Oracle has Hold Person for that as well.

It's also important to note that charm is not a control effect. The target is still free-willed. It merely changes the target's perception of you.

Actually you can get them to do almost anything with an opposed charisma check

Dead guys get better. It's handy to have a couple of dominated minions around when that happens.

I wonder. If A powerful wizard dominates a PC, and then sends the PC a letter in the mail, is the PC compelled to follow the instructions in the letter?

I wonder. If A powerful wizard dominates a PC, and then sends the PC a letter in the mail, is the PC compelled to follow the instructions in the letter?

Probably not. Dominate person is a telepathic form of control, so unless the wizard is currently compelling him to follow the instructions in the letter, the letter would have no effect.

This is also how dominate person ISN'T defeated by people disguised as the spellcaster. That telepathic link means the domination victim knows who its master is (well, perhaps not, but it knows who to take orders from).

If a doppelganger disguised as the wizard told the domination victim to kill the wizard, and the wizard told the domination victim to kill the wizard, then the doppelganger is going to die.

Dead guys get better. It's handy to have a couple of dominated minions around when that happens.

I wonder. If A powerful wizard dominates a PC, and then sends the PC a letter in the mail, is the PC compelled to follow the instructions in the letter?

Oooh, I like this! It reminds me of that old film, The Manchurian Candidate, or whatever it was called. But Ravingdork's reservations make sense to me. I suppose a wizard could instruct a victim to wait for further instructions in the mail, but there are other things that crop up then, like whether the victim is familiar with the wizard's handwriting. Could someone (a double agent?) forge a letter and the wizard would only find out when checking up on the original target of the spell? And given how much easier it is in general to suspect domination with Sense Motive, could the wizard add a rider like, "Act natural/casual, but follow the instructions in the letter I'll send to you?" And why go to the trouble, unless the wizard fully expects to be incapacitated soon and wants an ace up her or his sleeve, if only for revenge?

I suppose a wizard could instruct a victim to wait for further instructions in the mail, but there are other things that crop up then, like whether the victim is familiar with the wizard's handwriting. Could someone (a double agent?) forge a letter and the wizard would only find out when checking up on the original target of the spell?

I don't think they could. Given that the Dominator exercises their control through a telepathic link to the Dominatee's mind, which has an unlimited range as long as they are on the same plane, I think that every letter the Dominatee gets, after receiving that command, would trigger a mental confirmation with the Dominator. The spell says "You know what the subject is experiencing, but you do not receive direct sensory input from it, nor can it communicate with you telepathically." I think that's enough to say that the Dominator gets a ping or a mental request for confirmation or perhaps a sense of confusion over orders, which they then have to respond to. After all, "Changing your orders or giving a dominated creature a new command is a move action." Written down instructions being sufficient to change the orders of a Dominated Person would allow a workaround of the need for a move action. If the Dominatee gets no mental confirmation that it is the correct letter, they continue to wait for a letter that triggers it. Otherwise, as you say, a third party could wrest control of the Domination from the Dominator, which seems to go against the intent of the spell.

And given how much easier it is in general to suspect domination with Sense Motive, could the wizard add a rider like, "Act natural/casual, but follow the instructions in the letter I'll send to you?" And why go to the trouble, unless the wizard fully expects to be incapacitated soon and wants an ace up her or his sleeve, if only for revenge?

I don't think telling the character to act natural/casual has any affect on the DC 15 Sense Motive check. In fact, I'm sure it doesn't. As for why go to the trouble, I don't think they would. Dominate Person seems a poor choice for the court intrigue, "high-stakes espionage / covert ops" kind of game, mostly due to its limitations on the character's action and ease of detection.