Speaking of fleshing out NPCs, Nigrum's recruits are in his profile. Their story and basics anyways. Let me know if you want stats or more details DM. I have to go into my old notes to figure out if anything has been overlooked or forgotten. So many plans so little memory. >.<
Cool, I'll add them to the website next time I update. Mihara, if you'd like some your clan up throw me the information.
Will do when I work up a bit more inspiration. I'm struggling with that, currently.
@Mihara: Want me to RNG a few ideas for you? I have a whole book for that.
You have all the books. You're the only one I know with more third party goodies than I do.
"All" is a bit of an exaggeration. XD There's lots of things - mostly little products and releases - I've never picked up. I do have a lot of the bigger releases, though.
That said, for this situation, Frog God Games' Tome of Adventure Design is all kinds of handy for coming up with ideas. XD
Eh, I clearly know whose hard drive I need to plunder.
So what's the crafting list look like Azri?
Btw you said you couldn't craft rings for yourself. Unless I am remembering wrong, their is a archmage path ability that lets you craft anything. Chose not to take it?
I haven't taken it *yet*. XD Right now, I've got Legendary Item (her symbol) and Coupled Arcana (for when I really want to make someone have a bad time).
I think I've got about 7 days of crafting time left, which I can stretch to 14 days worth of work if I hurry (and I can for most items we can afford).
EDIT: Speaking of, I should upgrade the staff next time we get paid... XD
Alrighty was just wondering. I'll update Nigrum with his new goodies. ;)
Happy New Years player minions. Enjoy your ill-gotten bounty.
Woo~
Tossing it into Intelligence, methinks. XD
Happy New Years! Thanks for Shiny oh benevolent GM.
In game, I'm glad Aibek isn't there as they would probably require a Bluff or Willpower check not to react about being about to deal with Abadar (they won't argue against it...they will just avoid them as much as witchwolfly possible. ).
Also, I'm not sure how one peacebinds a holy symbol that isn't a weapon...
and does Nigrum really want to get involved in personal religious rites? There are quite a few...intimate ones in pathfinder...likely more of those than mass public ones that might cause a problem.
I mean, in Katapesh, traders can walk down the street with a great swords, holy symbols a plenty, shooting off pyrotechnics... Nigrum is clearly concerned about security but as the Varisians has already promised to follow the laws which should prevent the zealots and the competing and they agreed to stay to the inhabited islands, I'm not sure why so much hoop jumping for a group doing our little village a massive favour is beneficial. I just worry trying to get them to agree to every dot is going to backfire and gives us the reputation at best of being awkward for trading and at worst of being totalitarian and acting like a military fortress with such restriction of movement, items, and faiths. This is how rumours spread and the Varisians can do so far and wide.
You know I could add that somewhere else but nope more strength for Nigrum. Cause the best defense is cutting the enemy in two while asking who's next. ;P
You have to show off a holy symbol for it to work. Which is why Nigrum wanted them bundled up and put away. That stops clerics from using them for spells or channeling unless they spend an action to take them out and unwrap them. It's a rule for clerics likes spell components are for wizards. I shamelessly stole it from another game I was in a long time ago.
Nigrum just made it clear that while religions are not outlawed or restricted, he won't tolerate people practicing their religion at the expense of disrupting the public. This stops Gorum worshipers from starting fights for the hell of it, Cayden worshipers from playing drinking games everywhere, and Calistria worshipers from walking around naked or getting revenge on anyone they want in the name of religion. But at the same time if they want to practice their religion, they come to us and we find a place they can do such things if they want. Safely away from bystanders. Also we don't know who among our own worships which gods, they may want to take this chance to go to services or be among other faithful for a while. That will give everyone what they want and avoid any possible religious conflict. Absalom lets a bunch of religions mingle but they also have a faithless police force to keep them in check. Nigrum is looking at it from a security point of view, he is not interested in other peoples religion.
Katapesh has it's own large military force, an army of soul powered golems, and limitless gold to call upon whenever they are crossed. This is not taking into account that Katapesh is host to one of the largest temples of Abadar which they have a very close relationship with. No one can challenge the pactmasters, so they don't care as long as they get their gold and their bottom line is unaffected. Theft is a greater crime then the murder of a nobody in Katapesh to put it simply. We are not Katapesh in so many ways, so naturally we won't adopt their policies. We have to work with what we have and work around what we don't.
That aside merchants are used to negotiations, which is what this is in a way as it turns out. It's back and forth until a mutual compromise is reached. When Nigrum pushed to much on something he pushed back, but anything he gives is just that. Something he gave, nothing is taken. He wouldn't be a merchant if he is insulted by this, as it's pretty much his job. If anything, getting everything his way would lower our standing in his eyes. He could get the idea that we are easy to trick or manipulate. To trusting or unprepared for traders or deception. Depending on his personality that could make him detrimental to our city in the future. No rumor he starts would compare to that.
Anyways considering he is Varisian, I rather doubt he would start rumors due to their reputation. In which he is a victim if he is an honest merchant and not a Sczarni.
Well, I can tell you now they won't agree to limiting folks religions. There's no way a worshipper of Arshea would ask before morning service, for example. And, yeah, worshippers of Gorum or Callistra could claim they broke the law for religious reasons - but no one would deny they broke the law, including them. There's a reason that worship of those Gods isn't generally banned everywhere.
But putting rules in place to stop them will probably upset them...
The question is pretty simple - what measures are you willing to take to remain safe, and how much are you willing to pay to take it? Every rule and ordnance that you put in place is going to scare off more merchants and traders. In some cases they're ones you don't want anyway, like slavers. No one will miss that bit of trade.
But forcing people to disarm? A lot of people won't come, because they won't feel safe - they have no reason to trust you. What's stopping you guys ceasing their goods on a pretext? Restricting divine worship to those practices that are approved of? A lot of devout worshippers won't come in case their rituals aren't allowed.
And I assume these rules will be true for residents too, which may cause issues down the line. A lot of the people in Khalhaum came to get away from harsh laws. If the rules don't apply to residents then more people won't come, because they're going to believe you won't play fairly and have a strong bias.
The more restrictions you put in place, the more it will cut what you make here. The fewer you have the greater risk that a problem will occur.
Honestly? This is going to have major enough consequences that I think you guys might want to put this to a vote. This is actually why this section existed, but I was rather expecting more voices on it than just Nigrum.
You do need rules, but do you need this many, more and these specific ones?
That's up to you guys.
Azri isn't super-fond of the idea of restricting everybody's right to defend themselves and so on. o wo ......If you're interested, though, I DO have a very, very good set of rules we can draw from.
As a free city, Bard’s Gate establishes its own laws and customs. Though as a trade city, these are principally designed to protect the interest of visiting traders as well as the city’s residents in order to keep trade open and vibrant.
Weapons and Armor
Generally, the various District Watches allow the wearing of light armor (and hide armor as a medium armor) unless otherwise noted. Medium (other than hide) or heavy armors are frowned upon if not outright prohibited. At best, guardsmen take note of those wearing such armors and will approach and question them closely, threatening them with arrest if they do not leave the district immediately and not come back until they have removed the offending armor. If the wearer can show official credentials as being about the business of the city or are successful at making a DC 20 Diplomacy check (modified by the District Modifier listed in each district’s description), then they are allowed to go about their business though still under careful observation (–4 to all attempts at Stealth, Sleight of Hand, Disguise, or similar checks). In addition to the prohibition on armor only light weapons, longswords, rapiers, or whips may be carried openly, and these must be sheathed.
There is no requirement of “peace-binding” such weapons, as this is generally seen as an effete affectation, though many aristocrats and some young fops have adopted the custom. Martial weapons, two-handed weapons, and exotic weapons must be stowed. No polearms are allowed. Persons in violation of these rules quickly draw the attention of the guard.
After a warning, persistent violators have their weapons confiscated. If serious problems arise, veteran warriors are called in to deal with violators, as are priests of Vannithu, who volunteer with the guard. These laws are more strictly enforced as one moves closer to the Keep District — in some outer districts, the constables do not have enough manpower to enforce weapons laws too strictly, and often let minor violations slide as long as no one causes trouble.
Magic
Open use of magic is frowned upon — particularly spell casting. The casting of low-level personal spells is tolerated, though not in shops or stores. Destructive spells or spells affecting others are always outlawed, though unless done in the open one most likely avoids detection. This draws the attention of the constables and a sheriff, and possibly a low-level wizard with the sheriff.
I was also thinking of something along the lines of allowing a deity's favored weapon to be carried by members of their faith, but if it's outside the 'general' items, it'd need to be registered with the church (and they'd be responsible for any problems).
(I'm good on figuring characters out, but thanks.)
I agree that 'no weapons' is maybe a bit excessive. Mihara definitely has her words to say.
To be clear Nigrum is not passing laws or edicts. That's a council thing, this is an agreement with this specific group, which numbers more then our entire population unless I misread. Its case by case for now.
Nigrum did not restrict weapons or religion, he restricted spellcasters abilities to use their more powerful spells. Low level spells don't require material components, sorcerers and the like will be unaffected. The merchant brought up the peace bounding and Nigrum wasn't going to counter an offer of more security that they brought in. Also he restricted an organized public assembly of any one religion without a heads up to us. Sense when is it unreasonable to ask permission to assemble publicly in a location for an event. That's pretty standard, it's what the merchant is doing right now. Because we have no temple or location for such gatherings at this point in time. I think alot of stuff is being taken out of context. Nigrum does not care about anyone's personal religion or practice that does not effect anyone else. But considering the number of holy wars in the past and present, he would need a lower Int and Wis score to ignore it. ;P
Bottom line is we are still small town, hosting a big city event. Nigrum is taking what he can and can not do into account. It may be restrictive now but that will change over time. As our ability to deal with such things increase. Really it's not that harsh. Those effected by the restrictions are only a round away from being ready to fight. How is that an issue? It takes you a few extra moments to bring out your weapon/holy symbol/spell components.
P.S. Nigrum never said no weapons, you may be confused with the siege engine talk. The merchant brought up the peace bounding personal weapon stuff.
Edit- Peace bonding is tying the weapon or object so that it can not be unsheathed or brought to bare immediately. You still have it on you. From Mihara's post I think that got lost in translation somewhere too.
Happy New Year!
It should be noted that an explicit part of the deal is they'll spread word of you, and that will include the rules they trade under. While it is a short-term deal with this person, it will be part of your reputation. Others will likely expect the same.
Other than for information on why they want this deal, so far
Azri has asked for a recommendation to the church of Abadar.
Mihara has asked to be excused to talk to Nigrum
Nigrum has requested at least:
-- only one ship at dock at a time
-- for the crew only be on the Southwestern Island.
-- No ships in the harbour to be armed at all.
-- All cargo to be searched before coming ashore
-- Amount of crew out to be limited
-- Informing the council of any spellcasters. As some races are inherently spellcasters, that could raise a few eyebrows at least.
-- No carrying spell components. There are cantrips that require components, usually focus components, to use so it isn't just higher level spells. Rules as written, Read Magic requires a clear crystal or prism, Message requires a piece of copper wire.
-- No using spells without consent. Who are they to ask?
-- peacebinding holy symbols which I don't get how that will work when some holy symbols are tattoos, knotted scarves, pins with images on them, flasks...
-- to be informed of "any religious rites and ceremony" of the crew. Some religious rites within Pathfinder are personal. Nigrum said any, not mass public ones. Freedom, including religious freedom, is something the Varisians highly value and promising to obey our laws already covers the religious unlawfulness.
All these restriction requests, in rapid succession, from a rather weak bargaining position as Khalharum has very limited political power and resources compared to the Varisians, with nothing positive mentioned at all after Nigrum said he would deal with the guarding while Mihara dealt with the trade sends messages. Not least of all that the big armoured guy said Mihara is in charge of trade but doesn't actually trust her to do that much, not without this hoop jumping first at least, when usually ones arranges trade then the security and work . None of what Nigrum has said has dealt with how the Varisian ships will be safe and guarded in Khalharum harbours or docks, nothing has been said to compel the Varisians they have made a good choice to deal with us, nothing to try to get a better deal from our less powerful position. Nothing has even been put forth as negotiation - it is all worded as 'X will happen' sort of manner and nothing has been offered in exchange for these restrictions like considering allowing the permanent base he wants.
I'm not going to really get into the holy war comment as an non/formerly religious academic person who has studied and written on this a lot other than pretty much any religious war has resource and practical based elements with faith as an excuse in the real world and most fictional writings on it, but I don't see how that is relevant with the Varisians wanting to trade unless Nigrum thinks they wish to start one here with trade as a distraction. No place outside of Rahadoum restricts all holy symbols in such a way. How is Khalharum going to police this? As said, we aren't Katapesh (or the vast majority of other cities one can wear heavy armour and carry large swords, with holy symbols a plenty firing off pyrotechnics - or be someone who can pull any weapon they are proficient with out of their own shadow while wearing werewolf sigils with religious significance), having more rules will mean we need more power to enforce them. Less power means we need to choose our rules carefully. Personally, limiting numbers out at a time seems to be the most effective in limiting issues and something we can control through guards at the dock and heavier ship weapons as a second priority, and investigating cargo as a distant maybe third. The rest I'm not sure will help and I don't think we can really enforce.
Varisians do have a history of suffering oppression - which is why they will be open and honest if we appear to be a repressive regime which since all they've seen so far is a list of demands is what they might see. That and someone trying to sell them on local pie.
Also, we've yet to discuss nudity laws in Khalharum. This may need to be done before the GM is evil enough to have Aibek's sister show up wind-clad... Jon says she'll likely show up that way anyway because max hilarity if/when but I might need know how fastly Aibek needs to deals with that if/when...
Aibek is binding and covered head to toe except part of their face outside of locked rooms but has little issue with nudity except when used to threaten others and has no desire to legislate that but will have tried to figure out local preferences...just in case XD
Whoever wants a full body sunburn may have one.
Nigrum made alot of request, all having to do with security which is his thing, and the merchant did as well. We went back and forth to compromise, which some have been reached already while others have been discarded. All this is based on good faith from both parties. It's all agreement based and yet to be enforced in any way. Their is a lot of jumping to conclusions before anything has actually happened. Nigrum has zero reason to trust them and is not going to compromise defense, unless outvoted by the council. Until this changes he will be on high alert, but its not absolute. He didn't trust the kobolds ether, now he has closer ties to them then anyone else. Because they proved themselves, he will do the same for the Verisians. It's just not going to happen over talk or before even a day has passed. The market isn't going to happen in a day, it's going to take at least a few.
If they keep their word then Nigrum will trust them more. That leads to loosening restrictions as a relationship is established. Which is what I was thinking this was. They will be spreading the word when they leave not when they arrive after all.
Really I don't see how any coastal town would not be weary of a fleet showing up that outnumbers and out guns them at least two to one if not more. Is it really such a outrageous reaction? The merchant had to have thought so to an extent, sense the ship was disarmed when it docked. I still remember our first visit and our welcome. Didn't take it personally, granted Nigrum's bluntness hasn't changed sense then ether.
-No warships in the harbor
-Only dagger sized weapons will be carried without peace bounding.
-No blunt weapons
-Members will remain on claimed islands
-Any trials will have the merchant or a senior member present.
-Merchant ships will be unarmed in the harbor*
-Any cargo headed to the island will be searched*
-Crew allowed onshore will be limited to a mutually agreed upon number*
-Make us aware of spellcasters coming ashore and no non-benign spell components*
-Only benign spells are allowed
Only the ones with the stars at the end were Nigrum's. The rest the merchant proposed.
Only the peace bounding holy symbols and asking us for a place to gather to perform holy services is up in the air.
Edit- As long as it does not disrupt things, Nigrum does not care about nudity. But considering how conservative our citizens are, it may disrupt things. Which would make Nigrum against it, even if he does not see the big deal personally. xP
Being wary is one thing. Giving a huge list of requirements to trade there is another. You aren't going to be able to vet every trader you deal with, every vessel that docks and every sailor that comes ashore. Which means that they'll all be strangers.
And yeah, this will be an event that lasts a week to ten days. How they're treated in that time will be what they report. Currently, that's not going to be great. With just the rules you have in place now you're the most restrictive, regulated and regimented port on the Circle sea with the exception of military docks (and most military docks simply limit access to the military parts). Honestly, the only place I can think of with anything like the restrictions you already have in place is Hermea.
Yeaaaaaaaah. It does seem like a little much. XD; Azri would rather go for making people feel like they want to come back.
OK, I think the quickest way to decide on things is going to be via a vote. Feel free to talk about things more before you vote, but a simple survey should do it.
Please make a note if your answer is different for visitors and residents of the city.
Should personal weapons be allowed at all?
Should personal weapons larger than a knife be allowed but peacebound (that is registered at the docks, bound with silk and sealed with wax - breaking the silk and seal would require an explanation and potential punishment)?
Should single-handed weapons be allowed but two-handed weapons restricted?
Should armour be allowed on the streets?
Should medium armour be allowed?
Should heavy armour be allowed?
How will those who don't carry a weapon normally but can summon one, or do not need a weapon such as Unarmed specialists, be made to follow these rules?
Should any form of religion be banned?
Should religious rites require permission if they could be harmful?
Should religious rites require permission full stop?
Should religious icons be banned, as spellcasting foci?
Should the worship of evil gods be allowed
Should any other specific religions be banned?
How will this interact with creatures of a religious nature, such as angels, or other divine beings?
Should the casting of spells be restricted at all?
Should the casting of beneficial spells be restricted?
Should the casting of spells that affect only the caster be allowed?
Should material components or spellcasting foci be banned?
Should material components or spellcasting foci be bound?
How will restrictions be placed on magical effects that cannot, otherwise, be stopped such as a Witch's Hexes or inate magical abilities like Shapchanging?
Should any goods be illegal?
Should lethal toxins be illegal?
Should potentially lethal medicines be restricted?
Should any potentially addictive substances be allowed?
Should there be a certain level of modesty required in public? If so, what level should it be? Are these rules identical for both genders?
Should the taking of narcotic substances be illegal?
Should excessive intoxication be illegal?
Should personal weapons larger than a knife be allowed but peacebound (that is registered at the docks, bound with silk and sealed with wax - breaking the silk and seal would require an explanation and potential punishment)? I'd go for the Bard's Gate plan, actually. Simple weapons and certain Martial weapons allowed.
Should single-handed weapons be allowed but two-handed weapons restricted? Yes.
Should armour be allowed on the streets? Yes.
Should medium armour be allowed? No. (Except Guards/Officials.)
Should heavy armour be allowed? No. (Except Guards/Officials.)
Caveat: Exceptions allowed for important visitors (i.e. royal guards, merchant lords, etc.)
How will those who don't carry a weapon normally but can summon one, or do not need a weapon such as Unarmed specialists, be made to follow these rules? Told to not bring them out.
Should religious rites require permission if they could be harmful? Yes.
Should religious rites require permission full stop? Yes.
Should religious icons be banned, as spellcasting foci? No.
Should the worship of evil gods be allowed? No.
Should any other specific religions be banned? Any faith detrimental to the city.
How will this interact with creatures of a religious nature, such as angels, or other divine beings? Politely informed to leave.
Should the casting of beneficial spells be restricted? No.
Should the casting of spells that affect only the caster be allowed? Yes.
Should material components or spellcasting foci be banned? No.
Should material components or spellcasting foci be bound? No.
How will restrictions be placed on magical effects that cannot, otherwise, be stopped such as a Witch's Hexes or inate magical abilities like Shapchanging? Abilities require registration with the city. Those found to have committed a crime and not been honest about their abilities are subject to higher penalties. ...Note that Azri DOES want to make a magic-welcoming world-renowned academy. XD But is also a rules-appreciating kind of lich.
Should lethal toxins be illegal? Yes.
Should potentially lethal medicines be restricted? Yes, but with relatively generous access to professionals (churches, herbalists, etc.)
Should any potentially addictive substances be allowed? Yes. Alcohol is popular, yo.
Should the taking of narcotic substances be illegal? See next answer.
Should excessive intoxication be illegal? No, but people are still responsible for their actions and might get tossed in a drunk cell for a night.
Here are my votes. For the record, Nigrum would not be the first General to get vetoed on alot of what he wants to do. He will not take it personally. It's the councils job to hold him back from making the city into a fortress. ;P
Should personal weapons be allowed at all? Yes
Should personal weapons larger than a knife be allowed but peacebound (that is registered at the docks, bound with silk and sealed with wax - breaking the silk and seal would require an explanation and potential punishment)? Yes
Should single-handed weapons be allowed but two-handed weapons restricted? Yes
Should armor be allowed on the streets? Yes
Should medium armor be allowed? Yes
Should heavy armor be allowed? No
How will those who don't carry a weapon normally but can summon one, or do not need a weapon such as Unarmed specialists, be made to follow these rules? They simply have to register so we are aware (Kinda like pro boxers)
Should any form of religion be banned? No
Should religious rites require permission if they could be harmful? Yes
Should religious rites require permission full stop? No
Should religious icons be banned, as spellcasting foci? No as banning is a little much
Should the worship of evil gods be allowed? Depends on the evil god
Should any other specific religions be banned? Yes but none other then Rovagug spring directly to mind
How will this interact with creatures of a religious nature, such as angels, or other divine beings? I'll deal with that bridge when we get to it so to speak.
Should the casting of spells be restricted at all? Yes as some spells have no other purpose then destruction.
Should the casting of beneficial spells be restricted? No
Should the casting of spells that affect only the caster be allowed? Depends on the spell.
Should material components or spellcasting foci be banned? No that a bit much
Should material components or spellcasting foci be bound? Yes
How will restrictions be placed on magical effects that cannot, otherwise, be stopped such as a Witch's Hexes or inate magical abilities like Shapchanging? They must register so that we are aware of their abilities
Should any goods be illegal? Yes
Should lethal toxins be illegal? If they serve no other purpose yes
Should potentially lethal medicines be restricted? Yes
Should any potentially addictive substances be allowed? Yes
Should there be a certain level of modesty required in public? If so, what level should it be? Are these rules identical for both genders? No as it has yet to be a disruption
Should the taking of narcotic substances be illegal? No
Should excessive intoxication be illegal? Yes
Armaments:
Should personal weapons be allowed at all? - Yes.
Should personal weapons larger than a knife be allowed but peacebound (that is registered at the docks, bound with silk and sealed with wax - breaking the silk and seal would require an explanation and potential punishment)? - No.
Should single-handed weapons be allowed but two-handed weapons restricted? - Yes.
Should armour be allowed on the streets? - Yes.
Should medium armour be allowed? Yes.
Should heavy armour be allowed? - Yes, but only aboard ships or near the docks, for the purposes of defending a boat.
How will those who don't carry a weapon normally but can summon one, or do not need a weapon such as Unarmed specialists, be made to follow these rules? - As this is difficult to enforce in the first place, I would say this is a moot point. If we could reliably enforce it, I would say yes.
Religion:
Should any form of religion be banned? No.
Should religious rites require permission if they could be harmful? Yes.
Should religious rites require permission full stop? No.
Should religious icons be banned, as spellcasting foci? No.
Should the worship of evil gods be allowed? No.
Should any other specific religions be banned? Any faith judged dangerous to the city.
How will this interact with creatures of a religious nature, such as angels, or other divine beings? I believe this will need to be judged on a case by case basis by our courts, once we establish those. Most divine beings should be fine according to these rules, though.
Magic:
Should the casting of spells be restricted at all? Yes, see below.
Should the casting of beneficial spells be restricted? No.
Should the casting of spells that affect only the caster be allowed? Yes, but with a caveat: Crimes which involved magic would likely be judged more harshly, as per crimes involving a weapon, and so on.
Should material components or spellcasting foci be banned? No.
Should material components or spellcasting foci be bound? Yes, except components specifically for healing or explicitly benevolent spells.
How will restrictions be placed on magical effects that cannot, otherwise, be stopped such as a Witch's Hexes or inate magical abilities like Shapechanging? Abilities will required registration. CAREFUL attention should be paid to maintain the secrecy of this register.
Goods:
Should any goods be illegal? Yes.
Should lethal toxins be illegal? Yes.
Should potentially lethal medicines be restricted? Yes, but with channels for access by temples and doctors.
Should any potentially addictive substances be allowed? Yes, unless it proves problematic in the long run.
Other:
Should there be a certain level of modesty required in public? If so, what level should it be? Are these rules identical for both genders? Until it proves a problem, no.
Should the taking of narcotic substances be illegal? No.
Should excessive intoxication be illegal? No, but the person will be held responsible for their acts.
Oh, wow, I was not expecting you guys to be all Pro-Mutant register. Charles Xavier weeps a single tear and shakes his head sadly. You guys realize that this means Azri, Mihara and Aibek will all be on that list, right? Ayreth too, depending on how you qualify innate abilities, and Sorcerers. And Nigrum can fly (he's also a Half-Celestial, which Azri wants escorted from the city).
...this is gonna get awkward, isn't it?
Hey, Azri only wants to remove entities detrimental to the city. XD Celestials, in general, aren't.
Then you guys will need to clarify it when we're doing stuff later, as that's not how it's phrased. That's been a problem several times, where people say one rule but mean a different, less extreme rule. I'll be posting what you guys vote for in the end, do any final edits, and then we'll continue.
...and the aftermath will be part of what happens in the next city section. This will include ally (or potential ally) reactions, the mood in the city, and a change in Khalharum's (and Nexus') alignment and other things.
I was under the impression that the "How should this interact?" question was an immediate followup for the previous question and would only be understood in that context.
.......
Meanwhile, my inner Azri thinks this is an amusing bit of lawyering. XD
I'm sorry it wasn't clear - it's basically the whole Religion section. As a lot of those creatures are tied directly to a religion and there God, any rules that say, banned something on a God's Portfolio would automatically be a problem if a creature tied to that God appeared. A creature tied to Nethys, for example, would pretty much violate any rule trying to control Magic by its very existence.
...but so would a Sorcerer, really.
Nigrum's point of view is a little more xenophobic for a lack of a better term. In that instead of his race, it's his city and allies. He will not register or hold any locals and allies to these restrictions. To be clear I mean restrictions not laws. Everyone follows the city laws. But once a new group has earned Nigrum's trust and is no longer considered a threat to the city, they enjoy the same status for a lack of a better term again as the locals.
If Nigrum had an army and navy at his command then he would not care as much about the restrictions because he would be confident in his forces ability to handle the trouble. But until that time he is going to use advance notice and restrictions to his advantage so he can actually do something in the event of an attack or trouble. He is one man with few forces, none of which are properly geared yet (until he gets enough BP to create the units and they aren't purely background).
All that said, alot of those questions are pretty open ended. So polishing them would be a good first step. If you have something specific in mind.
The magical registry for example can be a mental list, which we entrust to Azri, due to her high intelligence giving her perfect recall. Not to mention she is the hardest to permanently kill and magic is her purview. Or even if it's a physical list, we have a warding box that can hold it while in Nigrum or someone else possession. It will only be used as needed and nothing outside official business. Once you reach trusted status, your removed from it.
I don't think it's the same as the mutant list, anyways didn't professor X need to know your abilities to "help" you and had a machine designed to mentally track mutants even if he didn't know them or their power. Anything can be abused or misused, trust always plays a role. ;)
Does anywhere else actually do the registration of abilities thing because I'm not finding anything like it in pathfinder or are we taking a page from Marvel? Cause that did not end well...and we do not have giant robots to enforce it...and Aibek does not use a shield though I guess the shadows could be one if the witchwolf squishes down really low. That Zhen Halfblood would not be allowed in Khalharum without registration seems odd and wrong. I find the idea that the issue is the questions being open so we can make the city we want laughable - it isn't meant to be Jon who makes something specific but us.
Since everyone who has voted so far is for some form of registration of people, I'm curious how people will think that will work or look like and what processes will be taken to register ourselves and the current inhabitants of Khalharum. How many people will have access to this register? Both public and secretly kept information have major issues. Where will the boundaries be? Will all druids be required to register? Will there be difference between Azri whose can visibly change vs Mihara who an turn into a fox vs Aibek who has three forms but all are clearly the same person? Does Azerna need to if she uses glamour spells or just by being a dryad? Do we really want to say some races are so inherently untrustworthy that we require registration we do not require others? Do we want to send the message we can't handle people without paperwork? Will that make us good trade partners? While the urban myths about it, professional fighters are not actually required to register themselves though some places give harsher punishment if they commit violent acts. The registration of people by what we fear does not seem a place to start anything good. Would need a pretty low INT and WIS to not see where past and present registering people by bias leads & any system we design will have bias.
Honestly, what is the appeal of registering people? I don't get it. That seems a pretty evil, controlling thing to try to me. So far our rules look like Cheliax's version of martial law. We seem to be scared of our own shadows. Do we think the kobolds that Nigrum now trusts so much will be happy to register to be in the city under these laws? All kobolds have innate abilites - and a desire for privacy. Will Nigrum tell them their privacy is not important, that the guards must know what they can do for security reasons? Whose trust exactly is required to get removed? Will we put every individual integrity to council vote? Why should they trust us with that information? The only ones Aibek has trusted to know their sex is Azerna and Ayreth and Ayreth was partially by dream based accident. What have we done to earn that? Aibek certainly doesn't think picking up a shiny rock in a temple is worth everyone's trust, so I guess it's either power based or a he who has the gold makes the rules situation.
In our arrival to Khalharum, I recall shouting and being asked to disembark from ship one at a time and discussion of distrust. I don't remember anyone asking or requiring us to register our abilities or shapechanging races or peacebonding weapons even after Nigrum threatened to kill people or any discussion about what we carry or spells or religious tradition. That Nigrum appears more afraid of the unknown than a bunch of non-mythic dehydrated guards who had recently been repeatedly attacked by plant-zombies and slavers seems odd to me. Wanting to prevent people from being able to defend themselves from said slavers also seems odd. And most generals do not want their own cities be fortresses and I think it is very sad to think that it is our job to keep one of our own from megalomania.
Some of the requests Nigrum has made are beyond sensible as I've said. Restricting on the influx of people in makes sense as does keeping siege weapon away as the ship has already done. It's the number in such a short space of time without any positives, any way the Varisians benefit, no talk about the security of their ships or repairing damage here, nothing positive at all that brings up concerns. Nigrum doesn't look blunt, he looks like he is machine gunning rules to see what sticks because we have no plan - which is kinda true. What is also kinda true is our limited ability to enforce any of these rules. The more rules we have, the more power we need to enforce them - having rules we cannot enforce when they do get broken will make us look foolish and weak minded at least. With what power we have, Khalharum need to prioritize it's laws so they can be enforced for maximum benefit. Personally, I do not see what many of these restrictions do for security that agreeing to obey the law - which surely includes not to harass, threaten, coerce, or harm others - does not already. We seem so scared of those being nice to us that we are handing fuel to our enemies.
Armaments:
Should personal weapons be allowed: Aibek has no issue with people carrying weapons.
Should weapons larger than a knife be allowed but peacebound? Aibek sees no reason for this but will not fight it if others wish it - but will want it enforced equally and fairly. Concealable weapons have their own issues as do large weapons so not seeing much of a point.
Should single-handed weapons be allowed but two handed weapons be restricted? Same as above.
Should armour be allowed on the streets? Yes, Aibek does not mind what people wear.
Should medium armour be allowed? Yes, same as above. Aibek will not fight restrictions fairly applied.
Should heavy armour be allowed? Yes, same as above. Aibek will not fight restrictions fairly applied.
How will those who don't carry a weapon normally but can summon one or do not need one? Aibek feels laws already in place as weapons should equally apply to all weapons, material or otherwise.
Religion:
Should any form of religion be banned? Aibek sees no point in that. Bans are for actions, not affiliations.
Should religious rites require permission if they could be harmful? To those outside of the practitioners, probably. Aibek views laws about harming should apply equally to all faiths and does not view religion as a reason to allow or deny.
Should religious rites require permission full stop? Aibek could see an argument for mass public rites requiring permission but would not push for it.
Should religious icons be banned as spellcasting foci? No
Should the worship of evil gods be allowed? Aibek would not push for their banning except maybe Zon-Kuthon due to corruption risks nor stop others from doing so if applied to all.
Should any specific religions be banned? Aibek would not push for this. While they dislike certain deities and distrust certain followers, they do not see banning groups as helpful when bans on actions are in place.
How will this interact with creatures of a religious nature, such as angels, or other divine beings? Law should be applied to them evenly as possibly.
Magic:
Should the casting of spells be restricted at all? Aibek would not push for this though their involvement in crime should likely be considered in punishment.
Should the casting of beneficial spells be restricted? No.
Should the casting of spells that affect only the caster be allowed? Yes.
Should material components or spellcasting foci be banned? No
Should material components of spellcasting foci be bound? No
How will restrictions be placed on magical effect that cannot, otherwise be stopped? Aibek views any restriction on magic should be inline with other laws on harming others.
Goods:
Should any goods be illegal? Probably, though I can't think of anything specific right now.
Should lethal toxins be illegal: If no other use, Aibek would not fight their ban but would not push for it.
Should potentially lethal medicine be restricted: All medicines can be lethal at certain quantities. Aibek would not fight restrictions as long as they are fair.
Should potentially addictive substances be allowed? Anything can be addictive, Aibek would be wary to ban based purely on addictiveness.
Other:
Should there be certain levels of modesty required? If so, what level should there be? Are these identical for both sexes? Aibek sees no need for this but would not fight minimal restrictions as long as they were applied to both sexes identically (if one can go topless, both legally can).
Should the taking of narcotic substances be illegal? No, though Aibek will not fight fair restrictions such as not to be consumed in public.
Should excessive intoxication be illegal? In public, probably. Aibek would support punishment for harassment and violent crimes while under the influences as a deterrent.
By fairly, as it appears in many of my answers, I mean equally to everyone regardless of wealth, status, sex, race, and so on as much as is possible. Aibek will want minimal differences between residents and visitors - and the Council. Aibek will question any law that does not appear to apply to themself or other councilors including peacebounding of weapons and spell component, armour worn, disclosure of information, and use of magic. If these are needed to keep Khalharum safe, then the leaders must show so by example. I think it would utterly screw us and our people over but...security and freedom and all that.
And honestly, while Khalharum's people are wary of outsiders particularly those associated with slavers, nothing so far suggests that they are conservative or will put up with these restrictions. We were only asked to talk to Varisians because technically we're in charge by old laws they've done without for centuries. The people of Khalharum have never restricted, they have never done anything about how Aibek walks around in shadow or wolven form - some even take lessons with Aibek. What have we done to deserve the right to restrict their lives? I don't think the people will put up with this and we'll have a revolt on our hands soon enough. I've no idea how anyone will react if/when the GM brings in the wind oracle, but I don't think her nudity habits will be the issue. Interestingly, one of Aibek's side stories involves discussion with Milani's people, wasn't expecting to bring that one in yet.
There is a significant difference between taking note of unique abilities and making people with them register, yes. But taking note is not what people have suggested.
The problem is you're expecting people to trust you guys without giving any trust in return until they've proven themselves, and you guys get to judge when they prove themselves. When you arrived in the city you guys were stopped because, you know, plant zombie ship attacks. Once you'd proved that you weren't murderous plant cannibals were welcome.
Now, if you entered, you would be stripped of your gear and armour, your abilities registered and potentially sealed and such. Would you trust a city that demanded those things?
And yes, the questions are a little open-ended - mostly because I really didn't want to write a list detailed enough to hammer out all the bugs, because I'm running low on energy. You know, funerals and such.
Again, I feel I should point out that the only Nation you know of that imposes regulations like this is Cheliax, and even then only during Martial Law. Nidal's ports are more open. It's...kinda scary, really. And it will affect how the game plays out.
This was always meant to be a single case with Nigrum. Had this been a single merchant ship, most of this stuff would be a moot point because we could handle it without much consideration. But we got a big fleet. We may be personally powerful but we are not responsible for only ourselves and facing a big difference in numbers. So it becomes more complicated.
If I was the merchant in charge, I wouldn't care about any restrictions the locals wanted because I knew I could crush them if they started a fight. I would only care about getting my stuff sold and making a profit. So long as trade went smoothly and I made a great profit, the more difficult others find them. The better it is for me, sense they will always trade with me and I could get a better deal while others couldn't be bothered with their rules.
Consider all my votes undecided now, I'll only chime in on tie breakers sense their are five of us. I don't want to deal with policy on trade if I can avoid it at this point. I'll stick to building walls, units, and interesting defenses. Feel free to veto all my previous agreements with the merchant as well to simplify things if you want. This has sort of spun into something else beyond an individual agreement as I thought it was.
Yeah, it does feel like significantly more is being read into this than intended... XD Possibly due to a discrepancy between our ideals of what's normal?
Fundamentally, Azri wants the city to be prosperous and welcoming to others. Every interpretation of her votes should be understood in that context. If her vote seems wrong for that, then the vote should be ignored. XD
OK. It feels like everyone, myself included, has very different expectations of what's going on. Since this was intended to a short prequel section to start the main plot of this part, it's kinda thrown me for a loop.
I wasn't expecting those regulations to be so harsh, frankly, because nowhere else in Golarion has anything like them. I know Nigrum feels that it's just this occasion, but again, it will affect future trade because of how word will spread. An inherent distrust of outsiders is not a great idea for a trading city.
And now we have the issues with limiting religious, magical, special abilities...honestly, I can't see how you guys are going to enforce any of this stuff, and a lot of people aren't going to be happy. And Nigrum is entirely right in both that these rules will make you safer (in some ways) and that this trading party is agreeing to some of them because if you misbehave they have the power to reap retribution.
Now, I'm happy to go along with these things. It'll change some of the plot, but believe it or now it actually makes some things a lot easier for me. I can see several plots and such that will spead from here, if you got a more totalitarian route.
But it is going to have some pretty hefty consequences. For example, the Kobolds will break off there association with you if you wanted a registry with there abilities. They simply won't allow you to know their full strength. With some great diplomacy you might be able to keep ties open, but they won't stay in the city. Merchants won't come if you don't enforce the same rules on your own people (with exceptions like military units) as you do them. The local population isn't going to be told they can't carry weapons, as slave raids are things that happened in the last few months.
At the most basic level, if you guys impose heavy restrictions on this party trade will drop off as other merchants who don't want to abide by those restrictions will avoid the city. Frankly, these guys travel more than you do, and the tales will spread. You can do it, but will either have to accept a drop off in trade or work to either counteract the lowered reputation if it's not going to be a permanent addition or do something that will draw more buisness.
Khalharum doesn't have to be a trading city, though. It could become a mercenary outpost that hires out fighters. It could become a city of learning and a centre of magic. It could become a religious centre. It was set up with trade in mind, because it's in a great location and it's a natural way to take advantage of that, but there are other options.
So, while I didn't expect it to happen here, this is going to end up deciding a lot of what you guys will do. While it will be possible to have exceptions to policies on a case-by-case basis, remember that those exceptions will also have potentially unexpected repercussions.
...honestly, I'm not sure what to do now. I'm tired, probably depressed (on the plus side I'm almost out of actual relatives who can die) and I'm tempted to put things on hold until I can sort things out, but I'm worried I won't pick things up again if I do that.
~~~~~
OK. I think I'm going to have to be a touch more involved than I originally planned or wanted to be. But I've got 3 NPC's who I can use as an excuse, I suppose.
I think what we need to do here is simple - what does your character want from being a Councillor in Khalhaum? What do they want to do for the city, and the city to do for them? What are your thoughts on the future?
Once I have that, I'll post a set of laws that I think cover as many of the bases you five have established as possible. For example, Azri wants to establish a school of magic but wishes for magic to be controlled, to serve the public rather than to dominate. So harmful magic that affects other people would be illegal in public spaces or private areas without a permit.
If a law doesn't suit you, we'll try talking it over until something can be ageed on.
After we have established those laws, we'll work on how to bring about those laws. For example, with Azri's 'no harmful magic' law, one option would be to limit spellcasters in various ways - take away spell pouches, foci and the like. Preemptive measures that will reduce crime but also punishes the innocent Another option is to simple enforce the law on those who break it. Only those found guilty suffer, but it'll be easier to commit crimes in the first place.
Since Azri has also declared a wish to see the city being a welcoming place for all people, the second option makes the most sense.
We can even add additional abilities to Nexus that would detect harmful spells being cast within the walls. I'm open to some creative solutions.
We'll try to avoid doing a full canon of laws, of course - it's too much work. This is meant to be fun for us all, after all. That includes me and a full set of laws does not strike me as fun. And it'll take forever to sort out.
Sorry for the whole situation. I...really didn't see this coming.
It does appear to have gotten rather out-of-hand... mostly all on its own. XD
My ideal set of laws is basically the quote I gave from Bard's Gate. She definitely prefers to judge after the fact, however. Frankly, given how many people can use special powers and require nothing external to do it - Eschew Materials-ing Sorcerers, I'm looking at you - trying to take away everyone's toys just because they're dangerous is pretty iffy even at the best of times. XD You can't stop everyone. Better to make people more responsible for themselves, I think, and simply punish rulebreakers in a way that encourages other people to obey the laws.
So, to summarize from what you've said (here and in other places);
Azri would prefer:
- More obviously dangerous items, be it heavy armour, great swords or magical items to not be allowed openly on the streets, but not restricted otherwise, with the exception of the City Guard (and potentially others).
- To leave magical abilities and qualities intact, simply making notes on any potentially powerful people when they make those abilities known, but not forcing registration.
- To count magical abilities used on others that cause harm count as assault or coercion.
- To eventually focus the city on a magical course, making it a centre of learning with a focus on the Arcane in the future.
- To allow free trade and immigration without restrictions, with the exception of those openly hostile.
~~~
Anything wrong on there, or something you would like to add?
Two small edits. o wo First, she's not pressing too hard on the magic route just yet. She eventually wants to make it a center of magical learning, but she's taking the long view and quite willing to spend a couple decades building up its trade position first. XD And she would impose minimal immigration restrictions, mostly boiling down to "nobody who's outright hostile to us". Y'know, basic self-interest for the city.
Noted, and edited in since I have the chance.
Double my defense budget and I'll go full hippy on the laws. Of course I will have a bunch of judge dredges to call down on the guilty. >:)
Really I'm going to have to think on it a little bit. Nigrum is more a reactionary type, he makes plans as a result or need of something. I do have an idea of what he will be at the end of the line but not what he would want out of the city or make of the city at that time. I'll get back to you. Hmmmmm.
P.S. Take it easy Jon.
Take your time. I'm in no great rush.
*Puts on some comedy for the GM*