Aubrey's Rise of the Runelords campaign (Inactive)

Game Master Aubrey the Malformed

I just bought the 4e PHB this lunchtime (about an hour ago for me). I have barely had time to flick through it, but it looks quite nice, if a bit busy (I'm slightly confused at this point - maybe a more in depth look on the train will help).

Was I out of order in that discussion with Kirth Gersen and the mechanics of the assassination scene in Crimson Throne? He seemed to get incredibly defensive, but my (initial) comments were really just observations about what he described about his style of play. He niggled me in the end, but even so - he seemed to massively lose his cool from the start.

I haven't read it,...I'll give it a look some time.

Oh, and I'm sorry to bung a discussion thread with 4e crap; I was kinda buzzed and not thinking about it.
I don't want to go out in the yard and talk about the damn thing though;...it's scary out there.

Well, we are among friends here, which is why I asked about Kirth Gersen here too.

Was I out of order in that discussion with Kirth Gersen and the mechanics of the assassination scene in Crimson Throne? He seemed to get incredibly defensive, but my (initial) comments were really just observations about what he described about his style of play. He niggled me in the end, but even so - he seemed to massively lose his cool from the start.

I haven't read it,...I'll give it a look some time.

I saw somebody kvetching about game mechanics about the scene a while back; it didn't really hurt my tender heart that somebody can't see how it is simulated in-game.
Philosophical discussions about alignment systems also seem moot to me; it's silly to argue about a system that so barely mimics reality as the D&D alignment system.

Don't bother on my account if the subject doesn't interest you. Mothers posted on it towards the end (after I went to bed) so I was looking more for his view, since he will have probably read Kirth's and my exchanges.

Those arguments just bug the f- out of me. I realize it's a different style of play, but it seems retarded to me to sacrifice or outlaw story elements in a game that is all about telling stories because they don't fit into a set of rigid and imperfect rules. (Apologies to any simulationists who might be reading or playing in this game. Just my opinion which I generally keep out of those discussion threads.)

Though I played dnd as a kid I didn't really "get" rpgs until I was playing white wolf games as a teenager. So the attitude of looking at the rules as a binding contract for all action in the game universe seems ass-backward to me. The rules are meant to judge conflicts between PCs and NPCs or other challenges in order to create dramatic tension and as far as I'm concerned don't necessarily apply in a strict sense to conflicts between npcs. It's like a doddering monarch can't die of a heart attack because we don't have rules to represent how much butter an bacon fat he ate in 65 years that we can also apply to PCs. That's a lame example, but I'm sure you know what I mean. Also people purchasing modules and arguing they are railroading because they contain a plot (instead of being some freewheeling all eventualities covered gazetteer) get under my skin.[/rant]

But besides all that Aubrey- it seemed like that guy was all too ready to take offense, but you kind of kept prodding him once he did. I agree with your position, but I think you knew you weren't going to convince him of anything by pissing him off further. Granted I only looked at the last couple pages. Sorry... you asked.

I get what he was saying re: players; I don't worry about it too much; I think confusing the players is a cool hobby.
IDK; for me it was just Aubrey being Aubrey. You didn't shit on his coffee table or anything. He could've walked away from the whole thing too.
It's a simulationist thing. I also know Kirth would like to pen adventures; when you wrestle with trying to cobble together something to see publishing, numerous great ideas seem to have to be put unfairly to death because it's extremely difficult to make them jive with the rules. Somebody with a lot of time is going to do a 3.5 analysis and inevitably cry "foul."
It's like the pseudo dragon/imps gang war from Korvosa. Gobs of people come crawling out of the woodwork to point out that RAW: pseudo's can't hurt imps; they're not silver weapons.

Oh, and the hookah? From my game? It's not in any book. It's barely even statted up. I know what it does and all; it's similar to something in a book.
OMG!!! Shoot me!!!

Yeah … it was kind of a weird situation. I usually find Kirth to be a very thoughtful poster, but he came across as somewhat unusually stubborn in his opinion on that thread (at a certain point) – which I kind of reacted to as well, and posted kind of a snarky comment first up. Probably more quickly than I normally would simply because I normally respect his opinion, but this time he seemed quite narrow minded.

Rereading the thread a bit later, I realized that his tone was probably due at least in part to various hostile comments scattered throughout the thread that basically dismissed the concerns of the OP (and Kirth, and Mary and the others on “that” side) and were at times quite insulting. I think his back was up. And maybe he only seemed narrow minded because I disagreed with him.

Aubrey, I think your responses were fairly well reasoned and not over the line – although that’s easy for me to say, because I agree with your point of view on the situation over Kirths. BUT, as Ithuriel says, it seemed fairly obvious to me that he (and most of the people taking that point of view) had made up their minds, weren’t going to be convinced that there was anything odd about the way they saw or played the game, and were ready to be insulted if anyone implied differently – especially considering that the insults had already started (at least if you’re the type who is easily insulted on internet forums). Had your comments come at the start of the thread, probably no harm. At the point they came in, they probably came across as slightly aggressive (though I don’t think you crossed the line – where I see the line anyway). There certainly seemed to be an element of “you’re playing the game wrong” and people don’t like to be told that … even if it’s true. ;-P

Ithuriel (and Aubrey) I agree with you, I find it exceedingly odd when people play the game that way. I think Kirth was being at least a little obtuse (although he became more reasonable later – and I don’t mean he changed his mind), and I find some of Mary’s complaints with these APs to be … very hard for me to reconcile, although I enjoy her insights on some things). BUT, if people want to play the game in a certain way, it doesn’t really affect me, it gets to the point where its useless arguing about it (you won’t change people’s minds) and maybe you can provide some advice to help them apart from saying “the way you do it is wrong” (although my attempt to do so late in the thread was obviously not at all helpful to Mary). The only reason I joined the argument in the first place was that I enjoy those sort of scenes, and I wanted to add a voice of reason to the side that was saying “keep them in the APs”.

Anyway … I ended up spending far too long on that thread today, and came away still somewhat frustrated in the end.

It looked like a looooooot of stuff to read. I admit to skimming them.

Kirth is allright.
Maybe this is his "thing."
Like, people trying to explain chaotic neutral to me; I have to walk away before I explain to them "you don't know where I've been!!!"
Tell me about CN? What do you even know about it?
CN is my thing; I have to walk away.

But besides all that Aubrey- it seemed like that guy was all too ready to take offense, but you kind of kept prodding him once he did. I agree with your position, but I think you knew you weren't going to convince him of anything by pissing him off further. Granted I only looked at the last couple pages. Sorry... you asked.

Yes, I did, but Kirth has normally been pretty reasonable in all our previous exchanges - we've disagreed in the past without it getting like this. The argument seemed self-evident to me, but was irritated by his "don't tell me how to play" stuff - I even said sorry if I seemed to be hectoring, but he seemed to have some sort of kamikazi (sp?) death wish and desire to crash his plane into me, come what may, which I though was bizarre and out of character, and I think it was his attitude which annoyed me rather than his argument. I object to people trying to close down an argument with "you have offended me" without try to convince me they are right first, and so tend not to back off unless I have inadvertently touched on something awful.

That said, I do consider the urge to see everything in rules terms to be vaguely anal. Rougerogue actually put it quite nicely in his final post about control, which I suspect is the issue with those people. For me, an NPC (and everything else the DM controls) serves to further the plot and make it a memorable experience for the players, and that was exactly what thae scene in question is supposed to achieve. And Heathy puts it nicely too. Surely part of the job is to confound player expectations? I suppose it's about comfort zones but, honestly, if you lot starting whining "that's not possible" I'll start using 4e instead - without telling you.

By the way, re my other post - anyone else picked up 4e yet, or planning to? (Fakey, I obviously know your answer.)

I grabbed a pdf to flip through. I have no intention of purchasing or playing it at this point so it's serving about the same purpose as a bookstore flip through. Haven't looked at it much yet as full book pdfs are kind of annoying to read. I don't know why that is. I can read a webpage all day long on the screen, but the idea of trying to read a book like that tries my patience.

Kirth is allright.

He is. I just find it difficult to understand the problem that he (and others) had with this scene - or even to see that there is a problem. I tried though.

full book pdfs are kind of annoying to read. I don't know why that is. I can read a webpage all day long on the screen, but the idea of trying to read a book like that tries my patience.

I know, same with me. I don't really get it either.

By the way, re my other post - anyone else picked up 4e yet, or planning to? (Fakey, I obviously know your answer.)

No and no. I'm not dead against it, but honestly I'm not even that curious. I have no intention of spending money on it anytime in the near future, and I don't do pirated pdfs, so I probably won't look closely at it for a while if at all. Just ... not that interested. If someone was running a really interesting sounding game, and I wasn't required to have the books to play ... I'd think about it.

Still, I guess I am interested to know what you think of the system, and whether game play would be easier or quicker. From what I've heard of changes to classes, races, monsters, spells etc ... doesn't appeal to me that much, but maybe I've been influenced by negative propoganda.

Heathansson wrote:

Kirth is allright.

He is. I just find it difficult to understand the problem that he (and others) had with this scene - or even to see that there is a problem. I tried though.

I think....if you try to write a publishable adventure, there's a pressure to make anything you come up with jive with the rules.

Also, as a dungeonmaster, when the players go off trying to figure out if there was an in-game rationale for something and there isn't, you end up having the impetus to defend the situation because you allowed the game to happen. You chose the module.
Me, I blow stuff like that off, but some players can get anal about it.

As other people have said you can easily come up with a rationale within RAW to justify the scene. But Aubrey has the right idea. You should never have to. It's like they bought tickets to see the play, but demand to stand backstage so they can see how all the smoke and mirrors work. Where's the fun in that?

But just off hand- improvised piercing weapon with a damage add by her unknown supernaturally enhanced stats crits the guy. As far as I'm concerned that could do it. That's not enough? Maybe apply the massive damage optional rule. He failed his save that no one rolled because these aren't PCs and it isn't important.

Ok- I'll leave that alone now. I try to avoid those threads because they irritate me and draw me in at the same time.

In other news-
We went to see a production of the opera Turandot the other night. It was in the Roman amphitheater at the acropolis. So being the dork that I am- I was amused by trying to place where our kobold adversaries would be from the Eberron thread. Ok the flying warlock is over here, and the stage is a giant dragon... lol. I couldn't help it.

In other news-

We went to see a production of the opera Turandot the other night. It was in the Roman amphitheater at the acropolis. So being the dork that I am- I was amused by trying to place where our kobold adversaries would be from the Eberron thread. Ok the flying warlock is over here, and the stage is a giant dragon... lol. I couldn't help it.

Now, an opera with kobolds - that I would pay money to see.

Ha! Nice. So did you figure out where the invisible one would have gone? ;-)

Still, I guess I am interested to know what you think of the system, and whether game play would be easier or quicker. From what I've heard of changes to classes, races, monsters, spells etc ... doesn't appeal to me that much, but maybe I've been influenced by negative propoganda.

Well, I can't really comment in detail. A lot of people have said that it is very well organised but I'm finding it a bit hard to get into - there's a lot of information in there, the density of data is quite high on the page. The races feel... I dunno, not quite right without two of them. And the lack of certain classes likewise feels like a gap. Interestingly, spells and powers are together with the actual character classes in the book, which means that there aren't that many of them, which may (or may not) be good formatting. Plus a lot of utility spell are now these "rituals" which are basically non-combat options (they seem to take a minimum of 10 minutes to cast). But I can't really comment beyond that as I haven't read it at all properly (and I only have the PHB) - I'll report back later.

So far with flipping the 4th ed books, my biggest complaint is the MM. Each creature gets about 4-7 lines of fluff. That's it. Everything else is combat stats, tactics, and builds. To be fair they also all include results for a lore check which sometimes contains a bit more fluff. But for example the goblin entry basically says- "goblins kill people and burn shit down, here's the stats:"

Also for the MM at least 5% of the art appears to be recycled.

Oh the "remainder" as it were of the spells were relegated to the back of the book as "rituals," so it looks like at least a lot of them are there.
I got this "generic blaster" feeling from the wizards really.

How about this: the beholder literally got one sentence of fluff.

Well, it has economy of style on its side.

When it comes to the queen' assassination attempt, I'm with Ithuriel - you don't need to follow rules when creating NPC interaction. Another thing that annoys the hell out of me with that thread the literalness of the simulationist crowd - I'm thinking, if the problem is that she kills the guy with one blow, F%++ING CHANGE IT!!. This is a game of imagination and improvisation. Have her rip up a cobblestone and beat the guy into a bloody pulp while screaming and ranting at him. That'll get someone's attention.

I'd hate to play with the OP's crowd:
DM: "The Queen grabs the captain of the gu.."
PLayer 1: "Dude, that provokes an AoO."
PLayer 2: "Not if she has Improved Grapple."
DM: "Well, ah, she then plunges the arrow into his eye, killing him instantly."
Player 3: "What a chump. Bolts only do 1d8 damage."
PLayer 1: "Heavy crossbows do 1d10, sucker."
*Player 3 slaps Player 1*

I normally like Kirth a lot, but I think he was wrong here. As for Mary... I have a hard time with most of her complaints. RotLR ultimately failed for her because she couldn't explain a trap in module 5 to her player? Granted, she has one player, and he sounds very odd, but c'mon...

And, don't get me started on that 'why didn't someone raise the king?' thread...

This set up is tough. Nicely crafted. I can very likely give the wizard (or less likely Nualia) a 50% chance of miscasting for three rounds, but even if I took one of the precious spots with line of sight I wouldn't be able to cast once I got there, and she would be out of short range if I could. I also can't get close enough and still heal Dravite, which really has priority. So maybe Gurney should stay back while Vethran takes one of those spots to blast and Davos takes one to heal Dravite.

I thought you were dead on with the Kirth thing. Sometimes story happens. I attribute the mechanics to telling a story. You could've saved the guy if you had known and reacted to a threat but you didn't and the attack went off. Too bad. Stuff dies. My group calls it 'DM story rule', and they deal with it as long it doesn't happen to PCs.
You were totally right in my opinion.

And on a side note....I won't play 4E but that doesn't mean that I'm not curious and open to rational discussions about it. I don't like several things about it but it doesn't mean that I think the whole system is trash. It's more of a grudge against WotC and some things about 4E that I don't like have combined to just turn me off to it.
But don't not discuss it because you worry that I might be offended or offend someone. Like was said, we are all friends here, I would rather discuss stuff like this with friends in a rational manner. Mostly though I just wanna listen and ask a few questions about it.

When it comes to the queen' assassination attempt, I'm with Ithuriel - you don't need to follow rules when creating NPC interaction. Another thing that annoys the hell out of me with that thread the literalness of the simulationist crowd - I'm thinking, if the problem is that she kills the guy with one blow, f!!~ING CHANGE IT!!. This is a game of imagination and improvisation. Have her rip up a cobblestone and beat the guy into a bloody pulp while screaming and ranting at him.

Or describe it as her repeatedly plunging the bolt through his eye socket, complete with twisting the bolt around in the hole and everything.

Vattnisse wrote:

When it comes to the queen' assassination attempt, I'm with Ithuriel - you don't need to follow rules when creating NPC interaction. Another thing that annoys the hell out of me with that thread the literalness of the simulationist crowd - I'm thinking, if the problem is that she kills the guy with one blow, f!!~ING CHANGE IT!!. This is a game of imagination and improvisation. Have her rip up a cobblestone and beat the guy into a bloody pulp while screaming and ranting at him.

Or describe it as her repeatedly plunging the bolt through his eye socket, complete with twisting the bolt around in the hole and everything.

People die from stuff like that.

Meh,...they were using the "Gamemastery Critical Hit Deck--d.m. fiat version." F$+% it.

And on a side note....I won't play 4E but that doesn't mean that I'm not curious and open to rational discussions about it. I don't like several things about it but it doesn't mean that I think the whole system is trash. It's more of a grudge against WotC and some things about 4E that I don't like have combined to just turn me off to it.

But don't not discuss it because you worry that I might be offended or offend someone. Like was said, we are all friends here, I would rather discuss stuff like this with friends in a rational manner. Mostly though I just wanna listen and ask a few questions about it.

Don't worry, Fakey - I know your shoulders are broad. I'll give you guys a review when I've had a good look.

So, where do I go to get the ten minutes of my life back I wasted looking at that thread? ;)

I warned you!

I nearly posted on the successor thread but just wondered what the hell the point would be.

I warned you!

I nearly posted on the successor thread but just wondered what the hell the point would be.

I did too; then deleted it.

It's good to know, though, that there's others about willing and able to be lassiez faire about stuff.

I bought the 4E PHB and went to the D&D Game Day. I have to say that combat drags on forever. It took almost 5 hours to do one puzzle and 4 combats.

All of us players had PHBs and the DM had a set of books and ran Keep on the Shadowfell a couple of weeks earlier. It wasn't that we spent time learning new rules, combat just takes forever. In one encounter, I went from almost dead to full hp three times.

The enemies have an assload of hp. The large white dragon had 200 hp and the two animated statues had 89 hp each. Average damage from us was around 8 points per hit. From the baddies, it was closer two 20. As the parties wizard, I had 23 hp. The fighter had around 30 I think.

The battle with the statues was nasty. They have an at-will full-round attack that knocks you prone if it hits, then they get a free secondary attack against any prone targets adjacent to them. If you try to stand up, their AoO knocks you back down. Fey Step (a racial teleport power) and Thunderwave (a push-back spell) saved my ass.

Spells no longer feel "special" like in 3.5. Blasting off a Magic Missile feels like firing off a bolt from a crossbow.

All of the classes are now basically the same. I'm not yet sure if this is good or bad.

The number of magic items in the book is disappointing.

All in all however, I had a blast playing. That's the main thing, it was still fun to play. However, until Paizo stops producing high-quality APs, I'll stick with 3.5.

I'll be out of town the coming Thurs-Sunday. I will be around some of Thursday European time and probably back late on Sunday.

I'll be out of town from tomorrow until sometime Sunday. Feel free to NPC Larken as necessary. I may be able to get online for a little on Thursday or Friday, but who knows?

So .... anyone else think we must be getting pretty close to the end of Burnt Offerings now? If only we can finish off this damn dog ... and assuming Nualia doesn't have some sort of bizarre trick up her sleeve for surviving what appears to be death.

I'm feeling that way.

Hope so. Unless Nualia has animated her father's remains into some kind of high-powered undead, of course.

Hope so. Unless Nualia has animated her father's remains into some kind of high-powered undead, of course.

We haven't really figured out what she wanted the corpse for have we? Something to do with freeing this Malfashkee (or whatever) guy? Or, yes, turning into a high-powered undead...

Or maybe a really low-powered undead - a 'flumph of the dead' - as a cosmic joke of sorts...

“Mwahahaha! I have revived my dead father’s remains as a horror from beyond the grave! Let us see how these foolish adventurers fare against – a Skeleton! Oh … they have bludgeoning weapons? Damn it!”

Well, while you guys don't really know it, the remains were a sacrifice to Lamashtu. I think I forgot to mention the burnt bones on the altar upstairs which, while not vital to the story and combat, might have explained what the hell the original fight was about.

I hope no one minded my bit of exploration into Dravite's mind. It looked like the fight was well in hand so I figured it was a good time to delve into his past and present mind-set.

Dass cool. I was just standing there getting chewed on to keep the dog off of you and/or the mages and clerics.
Figured I might as well chop on the dog cause I might crit or something.

I hope no one minded my bit of exploration into Dravite's mind. It looked like the fight was well in hand so I figured it was a good time to delve into his past and present mind-set.

A near death experience can do that to a man ... personally I think its a bit unrealistic when someone goes down to negative hit points, gets healed and is immediately back into the fight (of course, you need to do that most of the time ... but its nice to have the luxury to rp a bit).

Guys, I'm honestly not trying to be a wanker. Larken has gotten out of my control. I know that sounds weird, but he's pretty much playing himself at this point.