Yes. Mage armor grants an armor bonus to AC while magic vestment grants an enhancement bonus to AC. There's no conflict.
An enhancement to armor bonus to be exact, they don't work together anymore than a +3 studded leather will work with mage armor.
An enhancement to armor bonus to be exact, they don't work together anymore than a +3 studded leather will work with mage armor.
That's right, they don't stack.
Would magic vestment on armour stack with magic vestment on a shield?
Would magic vestment on armour stack with magic vestment on a shield?
Yes.
The same way a +3 full plate and a +3 heavy steel shield both give you AC.
Would magic vestment on armour stack with magic vestment on a shield?Yes.
The same way a +3 full plate and a +3 heavy steel shield both give you AC.
Yeah, but a +3 shield and +3 full plate aren't from the same source.
Yeah, but a +3 shield and +3 full plate aren't from the same source.Would magic vestment on armour stack with magic vestment on a shield?Yes.
The same way a +3 full plate and a +3 heavy steel shield both give you AC.
In this case Magic Vestment targets two different objects, the spell does not as such stack with itself but enhance two distinct objects
In this case Magic Vestment targets two different objects, the spell does not as such stack with itself but enhance two distinct objectsYeah, but a +3 shield and +3 full plate aren't from the same source.Would magic vestment on armour stack with magic vestment on a shield?Yes.
The same way a +3 full plate and a +3 heavy steel shield both give you AC.
Yeah, I guess I can buy that.
But Magic Vestment isn't an armor bonus, directly, it's an enhancement bonus to armor. Subtle difference, but it seems different enough that they should stack.
On that note, could you enchant the field of force conjured by Mage Armor with Magic Vestment?
Armor bonuses don't sack with each other regardless of source. Shirld bnuses stack with armor.
They do not stack.
Magic vestment is an enhancement bonus to the armor of the clothes
So the clothes have a higher armor bonus than they normally would, say a +3 instead of a +0
So you are wearing clothes with a +3 to their armor class, and mage armor which is granting a 4. Two separate armor values, the higher one kicks in. They don't stack.
But Magic Vestment isn't an armor bonus, directly, it's an enhancement bonus to armor. Subtle difference, but it seems different enough that they should stack.
On that note, could you enchant the field of force conjured by Mage Armor with Magic Vestment?
Believe me i used to think what you think some time ago but now i have seen i was wrong, i can't seem to find the thread i asked this question but the bottom line is that:
There is no enhancement bonus to AC, there is enhancement bonus to armor and enhancement bonus to shield. Now when you have two effects that give you armor bonus to AC, you get to keep the bigger one.
...except that, by that logic, +5 Full Plate only grants +10 to AC - for the full plate itself.But Magic Vestment isn't an armor bonus, directly, it's an enhancement bonus to armor. Subtle difference, but it seems different enough that they should stack.
On that note, could you enchant the field of force conjured by Mage Armor with Magic Vestment?
Believe me i used to think what you think some time ago but now i have seen i was wrong, i can't seem to find the thread i asked this question but the bottom line is that:
There is no enhancement bonus to AC, there is enhancement bonus to armor and enhancement bonus to shield. Now when you have two effects that give you armor bonus to AC, you get to keep the bigger one.
How did you get that from what i said?
The full plate gives 9 armor bonus to AC, the +5 full plate gives 14 armor bonus to AC (9 of that is normal armor bonus and 5 of that is enhancement bonus to existing armor bonus)
I should have said +9 instead of +10, but the point stands - the +5 enhancement bonus to the armor doesn't stack with the +9 for the armor, based on what you said.
Do you not read my post?
I just said that there is no enhancement bonus to AC. for example a +1 full plate gives you +10 armor bonus to AC because the full plate armor bonus has been enhanced by magic and now it's 10 instead of 9.Do you understand it now?
But Magic Vestment isn't an armor bonus, directly, it's an enhancement bonus to armor. Subtle difference, but it seems different enough that they should stack.
On that note, could you enchant the field of force conjured by Mage Armor with Magic Vestment?
Magic Vestment targets Armor or Shield. Mage Armor summons a tangible field of force and nowhere in the spell says it is armor or a shield, it just provides an "Armor" bonus to AC. If you think the "field of force" qualifies as armor, yes you can stack them. If you think "field of force" does not qualify as armor, no you can't stack them. IMO they don't stack.
Can Mage Armor and Magic Vestment Stack? By RAW yes.
Mage Armor is an Armor Bonus (like normal armor) while Magic Vestment is an Enhancement Bonus to Armor (as if it made your armor Magical).
Thus the bonuses do not overlap. This is the same effect as casting Magic Vestment on a Breast Plate to have it function as if it were a Breast Plate + 1.
Magic Vestment would Target your clothes as Mage Armor can't be the target of Magic Vestment. (Clothes: + 0 Armor bonus, + 1 Enhancement Bonus to Armor), with your Mage Armor (+ 4 Armor Bonus, + 0 Enhancement bonus).
The difference is that the Armor Bonus and the Armor Enhancement bonus are not coming from the same source. Which is quite unusual.
The real question is: Can a character employ two "armors" in tandem or would a character simply pick one or the other.
Aside:
Enhancment is an interesting bonus as it modifies the other bonus types. You can have an Enhancement bonus to Armor, an Enhancement bonus to Shield, an Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor, et al.
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Can Mage Armor and Magic Vestment Stack? By RAW yes.
Mage Armor is an Armor Bonus (like normal armor) while Magic Vestment is an Enhancement Bonus to Armor (as if it made your armor Magical).
Thus the bonuses do not overlap. This is the same effect as casting Magic Vestment on a Breast Plate to have it function as if it were a Breast Plate + 1.
Magic Vestment would Target your clothes as Mage Armor can't be the target of Magic Vestment. (Clothes: + 0 Armor bonus, + 1 Enhancement Bonus to Armor), with your Mage Armor (+ 4 Armor Bonus, + 0 Enhancement bonus).
The difference is that the Armor Bonus and the Armor Enhancement bonus are not coming from the same source. Which is quite unusual.
The real question is: Can a character employ two "armors" in tandem or would a character simply pick one or the other.
Aside:
Enhancment is an interesting bonus as it modifies the other bonus types. You can have an Enhancement bonus to Armor, an Enhancement bonus to Shield, an Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor, et al.
Absolutely not.
Magical vestment cast on clothes enhances the armor bonus of the clothes. Where the clothes had an armor bonus of 0 they now have 1. (treat just like armor)
Mage armor provides an armor bonus. It will not stack with another armor bonus. There is no such thing as a "enhancement bonus to armor". There is an enhancement bonus, and it modifies another bonus, in this case armor.
Absolutely not.
Magical vestment cast on clothes enhances the armor bonus of the clothes. Where the clothes had an armor bonus of 0 they now have 1. (treat just like armor)
Mage armor provides an armor bonus. It will not stack with another armor bonus. There is no such thing as a "enhancement bonus to armor". There is an enhancement bonus, and it modifies another bonus, in this case armor.
^ This is not correct.
Clothes can be targeted by Magic Vestment. They are treated as if they have an Armor Bonus of 0 whe using Magic Vestment. All armors have an armor bonus.
Then a + 1 (for example) Enhancement is applied on top of the + 0 Armor bonus. Bringing the total AC to 1. 0 from armor, 1 from enhancement (in this case enhancement to armor).
Armor Bonus =/= Enhancment Bonus to the Armor Bonus.
When the Enhancement is applied it does not overwrite or combine in any way with the original Armor Bonus. Rather it stacks with the Armor Bonus and works along side it.
From the PFSRD:
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
No it isn't correct, an enhancement bonus as the name says enhances the armor bonus of an existing armor.
So it doesn't stack with other armor bonuses.
For example if you have a +1 leather armor and mage armor cast on you, how much AC do you gain? 4 or 5? the answer is 4.
For example if you have a +1 leather armor and mage armor cast on you, how much AC do you gain? 4 or 5? the answer is 4.
This is an interesting question, since it is comparable to the OP's question.
You don't actually "gain" any AC.
The AC of the Leather Armor is 3, it has an Armor Bonus of 2, and an Enhancement Bonus of 1. Upon receiving Mage Armor, the Armor Bonus (2) is overwritten by the Mage Armor's Armor Bonus of 4. But, what happens to the enhancement bonus? Does the enhancement bonus "switch off" when the Armor Bonus is not in use?
For example if you have a +1 leather armor and mage armor cast on you, how much AC do you gain? 4 or 5? the answer is 4.This is an interesting question, since it is comparable to the OP's question.
You don't actually "gain" any AC.
The AC of the Leather Armor is 3, it has an Armor Bonus of 2, and an Enhancement Bonus of 1. Upon receiving Mage Armor, the Armor Bonus (2) is overwritten by the Mage Armor's Armor Bonus of 4. But, what happens to the enhancement bonus? Does the enhancement bonus "switch off" when the Armor Bonus is not in use?
That was my questions as well but you are going to this the wrong way.
The armor bonus of the +1 leather isn't 2 but 3, the enhancement bonus isn't a seperate source to the AC, it's a source of bonus for the armor which then in turn is a source of bonus to the AC.
That was my questions as well but you are going to this the wrong way.
The armor bonus of the +1 leather isn't 2 but 3, the enhancement bonus isn't a seperate source to the AC, it's a source of bonus for the armor which then in turn is a source of bonus to the AC.
So you're suggesting the enhancement bonus should not be tracked separately as with a normal bonus and is instead rolled into the total for the Armor Bonus?
That seems like an odd procedure for Pathfinder, but I could be persuaded to see your side. I am wary because Enhancement is it's own Bonus Type.
If item grants an armor bonus, and item 2 grants an armor bonus they overlap.
For the purpose of my example lets say the magic vestment is giving you a +4 bonus.
Item1=shirt enhanced
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).
An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.
That means that shirt now has an armor bonus of +4 since an enhancement bonus to Armor bumps the armor bonus to AC up.
The mage armor also has an armor bonus of 4.
Armor bonus +4 plus armor bonus +4= armor bonus +4 since they don't stack.
Stynkk's example supports my argument. If you put on armor and then try to lay the mage armor on top of it you take the higher bonus. That fact that you have a shirt, as opposed to actual armor changes nothing.
Splitting hairs as I do, I'd like to find out if the enhancement bonus rolls into the Armor Bonus as you say OR if the Enhancement Bonus (to armor) and the Armor Bonus both contribute to the total AC as separate bonuses.
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Splitting hairs as I do, I'd like to find out if the enhancement bonus rolls into the Armor Bonus as you say OR if the Enhancement Bonus (to armor) and the Armor Bonus both contribute to the total AC as separate bonuses.
It does roll into it, otherwise you would be able to wear +5 leather armor and then mage armor to tack on +2, since the leather only had 2 and the enhancement bonus wasn't rolled into it. Enhancement bonuses enhance you to a new total. You can think of enhancement bonuses to stats. Fighter Bob has 16 strength. A +2 belt is added. The +2 is not separate. He now has a total of 18. This works the same as if you have normal clothes, effective Armor Bonus of +0, then you add +3 magic vestment. You now have an effective armor bonus of 3 now.
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Enhancement Bonuses: Enhancement bonuses apply to your armor to increase the armor bonus it provides.
So enhancement bonus is NOT added to your armor class directly. Its added to the armor bonus of the item in question. Its not an enhancement bonus to your armor class, its an enhancement bonus to the armor bonus that increases your armor class.
It does roll into it, otherwise you would be able to wear +5 leather armor and then mage armor to tack on +2, since the leather only had 2 and the enhancement bonus wasn't rolled into it. Enhancement bonuses enhance you to a new total. You can think of enhancement bonuses to stats. Fighter Bob has 16 strength. A +2 belt is added. The +2 is not separate. He now has a total of 18. This works the same as if you have normal clothes, effective Armor Bonus of +0, then you add +3 magic vestment. You now have an effective armor bonus of 3 now.
While I think I understand what you're tying to say here, the strength example is not an effective one.
An Enhancement Bonus to strength works just like a morale bonus to strength. Both modify the total strength attribute score and add to it in the same way, they are not attached to another Bonus type.
What I'm asking is if an enhancement bonus applied to a suit of Armor works the same way as you described for attributes.
Because the way people are illustrating the enhancement bonus (in regards to Armor) is that it modifies the Armor Bonus contributor to AC and not the overall AC of the character.
Lets assume a suit of + 1 Leather Armor with a + 1 Deflection Bonus...
First Scenario:
The item in question provides:
2 Armor Bonus AC
1 Enhancement Bonus AC
1 Deflection Bonus AC
Total of 4.
OR
Second Scenario:
Item in question provides:
3 Armor Bonus AC (2 + 1 enhancement)
1 Deflection Bonus AC
Total of 4 AC.
If the calculations work out as in the Second Scenario, why is that? it is counter to the way enhancement bonuses work for attributes.
Stynkk: Are you asking if, I cast Magic Vestment, (lets assume the +4 version) then cast Mage Armor if the +4 enhancement bonus would move from the Shirt to the Mage Armor & still give the additional +4 bonus?
Yes. Is the enhancement bonus to Armor tied to the Armor item itself or is it an independent bonus?
If you had a ring that had a +5 enhancement bonus to armor(hypothetical) would this contribute to a Character's total AC in the same way a Ring of Deflection +5 would?
I think most posters in this thread would say "Yes". But, that it would stop contributing to the AC if you wore a piece of Armor with an Armor bonus of 5 or more.
The difference between a deflection bonus and an enhancement bonus is the deflection bonus directly affects AC. *emphasis mine*
Bonus (Deflection)
A deflection bonus affects Armor Class and is granted by a spell or magic effect that makes attacks veer off harmlessly. Deflection bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other deflection bonuses. A deflection bonus applies against touch attacks.
An enhancement bonus affects the armor's bonus to AC. It doesn't effect AC directly. *emphasis mine*
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.
Basically, you can have a deflection bonus without an associated piece of armor (ex. Ring of Deflection) The enhancement bonus can't exist independently of armor.
A ring that has a +5 enhancement bonus to armor can't exist. The closest thing there is is Bracers of Armour which grant an actual armour bonus
Lets take into account a Weapon. you have a +1 Long Sword with the +1 being an enhancement bonus, if you cast Magic Weapon on your Hand, & beat someone up with your hand, the +1 from the sword does nothing to help you, the bonus is attached to the sword.
If you have a +1 to the shirt, then cast Mage Armor, the +1 enhancement was cast ON the shirt, so it would not effect your Mage Armor in any way.
Weapons work independently. That is like saying if I have two short swords with different bonuses they wont work. A person can only have one AC score applied to their person. Weapon bonus apply to that weapon, not the person so that example does not stick.
you can have a leather armor with a +1 bonus stacking with mage armor. you take the higher of the two. The +1 magic bonus from the leather does not apply to mage armor, so therefore the +4 to the shirt would not apply to mage armor either .
You have 2 items granting an AC bonus so you take the higher bonus.
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Mage armor provides an armor bonus of 4 and an enhancement bonus of zero
Magic vestment provides an armor enhancement bonus (we'll say for this example that it's providing +2). In this example, it is providing it to the clothing, giving the clothing an armor bonus of 0 and an armor enhancement bonus of 2
We are hearing on this thread that they would not stack, because you can't stack armor bonuses.
However, according to the rules:
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies.
Since the enhancement bonus of the clothing is higher than the enhancement bonus of the mage armor (mage armor is not an enhancement bonus), it is the one applied.
So, according to the rules:
Armor bonus (mage armor) +4, enhancement bonus (clothing) +2 stack just fine because they are different bonuses. One is an armor bonus, and one is an armor enhancement bonus. Armor bonuses to not stack with other armor bonuses, armor enhancements do not stack with other armor enhancements, but they are applied separately.
A ring that has a +5 enhancement bonus to armor can't exist. The closest thing there is is Bracers of Armour which grant an actual armour bonus
Well... the closest thing we have is a piece of clothing with Magic Vestment.
Which begs the question, why not just cast Magic vestment on Mage armor? Mage armor (for the duration of the spell) is a tangible albeit mostly invisible object that gives an armor bonus, wouldn't Magic vestment simple increase its armor property?
Nope, since it is not Armor it is "a tangible field of force".
@treantmonk
It's like you get what I'm saying! *joy*
Which begs the question, why not just cast Magic vestment on Mage armor? Mage armor (for the duration of the spell) is a tangible albeit mostly invisible object that gives an armor bonus, wouldn't Magic vestment simple increase its armor property?
Mage armor is not an object, but a field of force, and there are no rules in place to treat it like an object. It it was an object it would have hardness, and hit points, and be subject to the sunder rule. It could also be taken away if it was an object.
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Mage armor provides an armor bonus of 4 and an enhancement bonus of zero
Magic vestment provides an armor enhancement bonus (we'll say for this example that it's providing +2). In this example, it is providing it to the clothing, giving the clothing an armor bonus of 0 and an armor enhancement bonus of 2
We are hearing on this thread that they would not stack, because you can't stack armor bonuses.
However, according to the rules:
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies.
Since the enhancement bonus of the clothing is higher than the enhancement bonus of the mage armor (mage armor is not an enhancement bonus), it is the one applied.
So, according to the rules:
Armor bonus (mage armor) +4, enhancement bonus (clothing) +2 stack just fine because they are different bonuses. One is an armor bonus, and one is an armor enhancement bonus. Armor bonuses to not stack with other armor bonuses, armor enhancements do not stack with other armor enhancements, but they are applied separately.
Thanks Trentmonk for a solid answer.
Now my monk going to be really bad ass.....
Mage armor provides an armor bonus of 4 and an enhancement bonus of zero
Magic vestment provides an armor enhancement bonus (we'll say for this example that it's providing +2). In this example, it is providing it to the clothing, giving the clothing an armor bonus of 0 and an armor enhancement bonus of 2
We are hearing on this thread that they would not stack, because you can't stack armor bonuses.
However, according to the rules:
Bonus (Enhancement)
An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies.
Since the enhancement bonus of the clothing is higher than the enhancement bonus of the mage armor (mage armor is not an enhancement bonus), it is the one applied.
So, according to the rules:
Armor bonus (mage armor) +4, enhancement bonus (clothing) +2 stack just fine because they are different bonuses. One is an armor bonus, and one is an armor enhancement bonus. Armor bonuses to not stack with other armor bonuses, armor enhancements do not stack with other armor enhancements, but they are applied separately.
Thanks Trentmonk for a solid answer.
Now my monk going to be really bad ass.....
So why will a dev tell you armor with an enhancement bonus not stack with mage armor?
Remember the shirt has an effective AC of 0 so it really is no different than wearing armor in this case? It seems to be the question everyone is avoiding.
Armor ClassOur example character has a wealth of Armor Class improvements:
+7 armor bonus (+2 chainmail)
+2 shield bonus (heavy shield)
+1 deflection bonus (ring of protection +1)
+2 natural armor (barkskin spell)
+2 Dexterity bonus (the character's Dexterity is 17, thanks to the cat's grace spell, but chainmail allows only a +2 Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, says Table 7-6 in the Player's Handbook).
+4 armor bonus (mage armor spell)
+4 shield bonus (shield spell)
+2 deflection bonus (shield of faith spell)Where Enhancement Bonuses Apply: In general, an enhancement bonus goes with a specific item a character uses, or with one of the user's abilities or other statistics. The example character's touch Armor Class is only 14, because a touch attack bypasses the character's armor bonus (including the +2 from the magic armor), natural armor bonus (including the +2 from the barkskin spell), and shield bonus. Those enhancement bonuses don't float around the character, warding off harm; they improve a specific aspect of the character's defenses.
Overlapping Bonuses are Still in Place: This can become significant when dealing with Armor Class. For example, our human has an Armor Class of 24 against an incorporeal touch attack, as follows:
Base 10
+2 Dexterity: The chainmail's Dexterity cap still applies, even though the chainmail itself can't block the attack.
+4 shield bonus: The shield spell works against the attack because it is a force effect.
+4 armor bonus: The mage armor spell works against the attack because it is a force effect. (But, neither the chainmail's +2 enhancement bonus nor the barkskin's +2 enhancement bonus improve the mage armor's armor bonus.)
+2 deflection bonus from shield of faith spell.
The rules on this have not changed since 3.5 so with that said the shirt's enhancement bonus only applies to the shirt, not anything else.
Remember the shirt has an effective AC of 0 so it really is no different than wearing armor in this case? It seems to be the question everyone is avoiding.
Which brings me back in the picture! Thanks Wraith for that segue!
Can you wear two items with an armor bonus? Yes, you can wear bracers of armor and a suit of armor.
Armor bonus (mage armor) +4, enhancement bonus (clothing) +2 stack just fine because they are different bonuses. One is an armor bonus, and one is an armor enhancement bonus. Armor bonuses to not stack with other armor bonuses, armor enhancements do not stack with other armor enhancements, but they are applied separately.
Provided you can cast Magic Vestment on Mage Armour, yes, they stack. However whether you can do that is highly debatable.
The reason your arguement otherwise fails is: Enhancement bonuses do not modify your AC. They modify the bonus provided by a suit of armour. In the case of Magic Vestment on clothes, clothes are considered armour with an armour bonus of +0.
In other words, you don't get +4 AC from a chain shirt and +2 from enhancement, the chain shirt gets +2 from enhancement giving it an armour bonus of +6. You get the whole +6 as an armor bonus. To restate, You can't benefit directly from an enhancement bonus to armour because it modifies the armour's bonus, not you AC.
Remember the shirt has an effective AC of 0 so it really is no different than wearing armor in this case? It seems to be the question everyone is avoiding.Which brings me back in the picture! Thanks Wraith for that segue!
Can you wear two items with an armor bonus? Yes, you can wear bracers of armor and a suit of armor.
You can wear Bracers with a suit of armour just fine, however if one provides a higher armour bonus, the other shuts off entirely. (Including all non-AC enhancements)
Remember the shirt has an effective AC of 0 so it really is no different than wearing armor in this case? It seems to be the question everyone is avoiding.Which brings me back in the picture! Thanks Wraith for that segue!
Can you wear two items with an armor bonus? Yes, you can wear bracers of armor and a suit of armor.
You can wear Bracers with a suit of armour just fine, however if one provides a higher armour bonus, the other shuts off entirely. (Including all non-AC enhancements)
I know the lower armor does not count, but does it shutdown(including special abilities). You got a quote for that part? It might mean the mage armor no longer functions against incorporeal creature's touch attacks like it did in 3.5 when wearing armor.