(3) Legend of the Elder Souls (Inactive)

Game Master mdt

I don't think it's going to be arcanist. An arcanist that doesn't pick up dimensional slide is a bad Arcanist (moreso with Mdt's reading of the ability.)

Brawler, Hunter, Slayer, Bloodrager all seem likely. But I might be being speciest. We didn't exactly give it much chance to do cool tricks, though... so Warpriest and the like is not out of the question. The Negative Energy explosion may well have been its fervors kersploding as negative channels...

I think Hunter is 'meh' for Kong - gives skills, and raises BAB by virtue of outflank and the like, and warpriest does similar (at least for 'combat abilities), but with a focus on wisdom... ugh.

It used normal winter wolf abilities, plus presumably some mythic stuff. We're arguing over what class levels a normal winter wolf might be tied to.

Hunter is bad for Kong because it gives feats he can't benefit from, a 2/3 caster he can't benefit from, and reduces his BAB and HP—overall, unless we can buff his wisdom, he's weaker as a hunter than as a warrior. Warpriest is slightly less problematic, because it gives useful feats and better class features.

Slayer leads to deathblow, which, sure, is pretty cool with a scythe.

(And oh man, I think we could all benefit from Warpriest, though Lina and Neri might use it best)

I don't know what deathblow is.

What feats can he not benefit from?

Sorry, I was thinking Merciless Butchery.

Hunter gives teamwork feats, which... aren't very useful to a primary caster without a full HD or better armor (warpriest would, at least, give the latter)

There are actually a lot of teamwork feats that aren't strictly 'stand in their face and hit them with your sword', though.

Escape Route, which is arguably better for a melee character.
May of the Betrayal feats (though I think we might frown on sacrificing woodland creatures to bolster spells :p)
Lookout to get a really high perception for surprise rounds (and thus get started sooner)
Scarred Legion
Allied Spellcaster
Special Delivery line
Spell Chain (though this probably needs errata, as you count as your own ally)
Take the Hit

And so on. Teamwork feats are just... amazing, and it all depends on what you're going for.

I'm much more concerned with one of you getting a class you simply can't cast as, which feels like a huge loss.

Escape Route is... okay, I guess? It's effectively Spring Attack. Lookout is one of the most overrated feats I've seen on the discussions (it gets you a free move action, once per several combats). Scarred Legion is okay (if you can keep your companion alive and at hand), but it's still just a weaker Iron Will just like Allied Spellcaster is a weaker Spell Penetration (I guess they're both better than nothing; didn't realize an animal companion counts for Allied Spellcaster). Spell Chain is useless for a Hunter. Special Delivery has very marginal uses (since action economy hurts it hard), but it's useful in *exactly one* case: a gestalt with with an animal companion (but hey, that could be Kong!). Take the Hit is a trash feat in a mythic game, because it's a huge waste of swift actions for a small benefit.

Animal-shared teamwork feats are great for mounted combat or maneuver-abusers, but Kong, as a straight attacker/spellcaster, would probably get less use out of them than any of the rest of us. (Now, if he could get Solo Tactics, that would be a bit different).

Lookout gives you a surprise round some of the time the dice are against you. When the dice are with you, it gives the standard or move that you didn't want as much - but they're still there.

Lookout is similar to Improved Initiative, in that it allows a caster to do things before they would ordinarily be able to. That's strong, in my opinion.

A Hunter's animal companion doesn't need to meet the prerequisites. So any feat Kong can qualify for, it can have.

Spell Chain is -not- useless for a Witch-Hunter gestalt. RAW if you bypass SR, you can roll twice on the next round to try to bypass SR. Seems solid. I'm not familiar enough with the Hunter list to know whether Spell Resistance comes up often on it. (But moot in Kong's case due to abysmal wisdom)

Take the Hit allows a low HD character to maintain HP with a limited 'Shield Other' effect from his animal companion, who doesn't have nearly as much use for those swift actions.

Isolating 'Hunter' from 'Witch' to say that hunter is bad for Kong is like saying Hunter is bad for Liisa with her low Str/Dex. It's simply not true, because they can still utilize other parts of the class, and can use Hunter to bolster their current class.

It's not ideal for either character, certainly, but it's only specific portions that aren't 'as' useful. For Kong it's the spellcaster portion, for Liisa it's a mixed bag.

Let's be honest. Neri would probably use that first teamwork feat for Stealth Synergy and never look back. :P

"Within one round" means he'd have to cast two spells in one round... and Lookout only matters to spellcasters with bad Perception.

I didn't think about Take the Hit working in reverse. That's kind of interesting.

* * *

Basically I guess I'm just excited about the prospect of picking another class? Kong won the coin toss though, should respect that.

I don't know on the 'Within one round' thing ending at the start of your turn. Would a spell with a duration of 1 round really wear off before your next turn begins, as opposed to at the end of your next turn (when 6 seconds will have ostensibly passed)?

If that's the case, then it's significantly less potent, but still usable for quickened spells (much less valid, IMO).

I always thought a spell with a duration of 1 round ends at the beginning of your next turn? Hmm. Oh well.

Yeah, that sounds right. Which makes it far less valid.

Since most casters want far more feats than they can get, IMO, it will likely never get picked up, sadly.

Eh. EVERYONE wants more feats than they can get. Except summoners, eff those guys.

I -always- want more feats as a summoner. Always.

I'm much more concerned with one of you getting a class you simply can't cast as, which feels like a huge loss.

Like Johnny with his natural Int of 8 getting arcanist? -_- I miss dumb Johnny. I'm very much looking forward to eating that gem and giving you his +4 headband of Int.

Eh, it's not that bad. Though maybe his sense of humor will improve with lesser intellect. :p

Pfft. There are, like, four summoner feats.

Extra Evolution x5, (Spell Focus Conjuration, Augment Summoning) (or other feats if you traded your SLA for something). Then any feats that fit for your character beyond the 'powerful' feats. Like, maybe an eldritch heritage fits? Maybe you happen to want just about any sort of fluff for your character?

Of course if you go with Master Summoner, then yeah. It's just basically 'whatever you like' from that point.

It would also be great to take VMC cleric and Sacred Summons... but short of being a master summoner, you really, really don't have the feats for that.

Also, if we're bugging anyone, just tell me to shut up. That's rule #1 of dealing with me. If I'm not being self-conscious, then someone needs to remind me that I'm annoying. :p

Boing. I'll probably be picking up the Liberation Domain from my pm:ed list, just because the spells are so handy. Also so I can steal that Braveheart speech sometimes in the future :P

Ok so does this mean I should have a domain? Don't think I was given a list to choose from.

I'll take any help you can give me Lina and anyone else. Need all the Will save help I can get.

Kong

Domain : Darkness, Death, Healing, Repose, Void
Subdomain : Loss, Undead, Resurrection, Soul, Isolation

Well... technically, I'm pretty sure you want to fail the roll if you actually want the gem. Don't quote me on that.

If you do want to fail, Neri can make you roll twice and take the worse of the two. :P

Liisa may also want to grant the folks that don't have mythic endure elements... mythic endure elements :p

Lina, just checking: Have you looked at the Weapon Master's Handbook, yet?

I'm pretty sure you'd fall in love with several of the things in there. (Fighters assuming multiple stances at the same time, Paladins with bonus feats, Fighters gaining access to Solo Tactics in exchange for not expanding (but still increasing) their weapon training once, or changing bravery into a bonus to all will saves and doubling it against demoralize... though it does limit your options for how many different kinds of weapons you can use.)

How about Versatile Performance style skills based on weapon groups?

Or sacrificing a weapon to save an ally?

Sooo, sooo cool...

wow... I go out for the night and the board 'splodes, lol... good reading though now that i'm back. interesting speculations.

No worries, Ssetheen—Neri, Kong and I only kept going because we knew this was action/argument that not everyone needed to chime in on and thus didn't want it to take up anyone else's time.

* * *

Neri, I've read MTT, but not WMH—but I have read the WMH style feats. Until now...

@WMH - Cut/Smash from the Air feels like the biggest gamechangers : )

Eh, Cut from the Air isn't much better than Deflect Arrows or Arcane Bloodrage, both of which are a pretty big deal already. Difficult Swings seems like the most powerful of the Weapon Training feats (although Ricochet Toss is pretty nice for anyone who can't afford a Blinkback Belt). But Fighter's Finesse (or Spear Dancer Style, YMMV) is a game-changer for melee lockdown builds, while Abadar's Crossbow does the same for ranged lockdown, and Cayden's Blade and Gorum's Swordsmanship are feats that make completely new playstyles possible. Plus, Ascetic Style leads to hilarious combos, and Outslug Style is the ultimate style for Rogues (10' step makes flanking fun and scouts even more fun).

Smash from the Air makes you immune to Rays. Unless the puny mage manages to cough up a better attack roll bonus then you which is hard after a while, even with quickened True Strike.

And Cut from the Air doesn't have a 1/round limit so with combat reflexes you can easily block the first 2-3 ranged attacks or so.

But; I guess, they are much better if you happen to be something like a dragon flying high above and laughing at PCs :P

Difficult swing is really nice though, no more 5-foot steps!

Ray Shield and Mythic Deflect Arrows also block rays, but the barrier to entry is pretty high, which is fair.

Difficult Swings + Fighter's Finesse + Weapon Trick (Polearms) = Buckets of fun

EDIT: Also, heh, gotta love the time zones of this game.

@Kong: Sorry, Lina's being a bit of an a**hole. But she's not really that nice a person... if you're not going to try again, with enough force to physically injure yourself, her most in-character response is probably to assume that you're probably not worthy/tough enough for the power and snatch it from you for your own protection.

Let me know, in general, if I'm being too hostile as a player, and I'll try to tone it down.

(Otherwise, there's a concept I've been introduced to called the "dwarven doors game" that says games move faster when players are just reckless enough to act without endless thought. In this game, that's a mix of Neri's reckless friendliness, Johnny's ignorance, and Lina's impatience)

From my understanding, a kineticist doesn't benefit from snapshot (unless I'm using other gear), or far shot (ditto)

Is that incorrect?

Either way, -4 to a save is amazing. Preventing an AOO can be good. Bonus points if going down the overwatch style stuff.

'Readied action to shoot anyone targeted by a spell. Four insdividual times.'

Question is, can I shoot at four people affected by the same fireball, then?

(Those feats plus overwatch style also makes crossbow fighter much cooler.)

Err, and MDT: Sorry to create a mess once again. I'm giving Kong the option to grab the gem back if he wants to; Lina just assumed his comment meant he was no longer interested, which is clearly not the case, but I'll wait and see what his in-character response is.

I was having Sterling flashbacks with that post Lina. Please don't go down that road. A little edge is ok but I'd prefer you not take it too far.

It's all good for now.

Hm. Now that Liisa has pointed out Exploding it...

and Liisa also linked to the domains page, which is on the same page of what our compounds give...

and Brabern says that throwing them into lava works for destroying them...

It may be possible to simply feed them to Neri's volcano for something. Possibly just destroying them... but I don't think that fully makes sense. Especially given that his volcano also creates things, and is tied to the original forging of the gems for our patrons...

So, maybe if we can get them past the wall without it killing us, that's another option. Ptaleon seemed like destruction at first, but as things have gone on, he seems bigger on change (with a side aspect of rage).

Also, Lina never played with Sterling. She joined us the same time you guys joined the other table.

Hmm. But we would have to find a hob-halfling to carry it if we were to throw it into a volcano :P

edit: Make that two halflings, just in case the first one falters ...

Sorry, dude! I'm not good-aligned, but I am still lawful.

You missed the "Lina strangles Neri every five minutes" arc a while back, though, that was fun.

Ugh paizo is fritzing out.

From what I understand, Sterling’s alignment was “neutral a-hole.” Lina is “lawful buzzkill.” She’s got morality; she’s just not friendly about it, and her 8 Cha (and low starting wisdom, which I've been pumping) shows (and I, as a player, can be a bit too jumpy). Pretty sure the two characters would *not* have gotten along at all, though.

Oh, and Neri: We can't get them past the wall or they'll explode, and their power will be wasted. And Lina's definitely going to interpret "let's destroy this crystal" as "someone doesn't appreciate power, I'm going to have to take it myself so I can keep these bozos alive."

Yeah the site has been a bit finicky the last half an hour or so. Could barely even complete my lotr joke :P

We can't get them past the wall or they'll explode

Hmm. So what I'm hearing is - we should put a slice of the wall (not sure how that would work!) inside a fragile container and place that next to the (a?) gem in a basket and fling it at our foes :P

Yup. Paizo's been odd a lot recently.

And 'Destroying the gem' might actually be more beneficial. And Lina isn't stupid :P

It's just adding more questions to ask once we get back to the wall. :)

Sterling was a bit: I'm in charge, you did it wrong, I'll just have to do it myself, Its my way or the highway. And he seemed to have nothing better to do all day than post so he could frequently steer everything due to sheer volume of posts.

We're good though Lina.

Yup. Paizo's been odd a lot recently.

And 'Destroying the gem' might actually be more beneficial. And Lina isn't stupid :P

It's just adding more questions to ask once we get back to the wall. :)

Except that A) Gems are pretty much our only source of power, which Lina at least believes we need to acquire desperately and quickly, and B) They're super hard to come by. This is only the second one we've ever seen, after many months in-game of searching.

To another character, that argument might be valid. But to Lina, you're basically saying "Let's dynamite our house in case there's an ancient pirate treasure buried underneath for some reason."

@Kong: I get reallllly bored at work sometimes and post in crazy bursts. Also, my schedule is terrible, so often "bored at work" means "5 am"

I occupy a very similar posting schedule. I'm incredibly active, except on those rare days that I'm busy. The difference is that I'm not a 'pusher'. I try to hook characters and react to hooks that are hung out. Which means that I'm much more likely to hog all of the interactions, rather than scenes. :P

I recently found out about the 'four types of gamer', referring to the 'reactive-active axis' and the 'player-world axis'. I'm highly reactive, with world and player being roughly equally important (making me a socializer/explorer). :)

The things that made Sterling and I not get along (I think), is basically that he tried to steer things constantly, and wasn't allowing other people to contribute, that I offered answers when no one asked a question ('that won't work, maybe try something else') which was most often meant to keep Kittiface from having to post 'that doesn't work' and have wasted everyone's time... that he basically ignored my character (which made me a bit irrate, as a socializer), and finally that my character was chaotic with good leanings and his was lawful with evil leanings... which meant that we disagreed a lot in character.

What I will say, is that he drove the game forward rather well. So at least there's that. :)

As for gems: Yeah. I'm totally not suggesting we don't 'eat' this one. That being said, I wanted to point out that Liisa had me thinking, and that we'd have more questions to ask once we got back. The gems tend to be more reactive to the world than reactive to our characters, though, while we're inside the wall.

@Kong: Oh you were in the other group (maybe this was said previously, I don't remember)? Were you playing Kong in the other group or a different character and then you just became Kong when you decided to join us?

@Neri: What is this set of gamer axes to which you refer? Do you have a link to something?

I joined the other group as Paul. I had a choice of Kong or Jacob or a Local. I chose Kong.

As far as I could tell, the in-character disagreements behind the party split were less alignment-based, and more political-spectrum disagreement. Neri was a compassionate liberal, Luna a democratic libertarian, Harry a conservative libertarian, and Sterling an objectivist.

Lina didn't talk much before I got the character, but as a Swedish government employee, I've been playing her as a democratic socialist.

* * *

Personally, I'm a very pushy player because I am a human being with a lot of personality. I'm very willing to let other players lead, I just forget to let them do so sometimes because of my ADHD—and this is one of my favorite games, so I get more excited about it than I should.

@Johnny: wiki rabbithole

Youtube video I learned it from.

@Lina: I don't know what most of those words mean. :o

Lina meant that she voted for this guy* :P

*Old (uhhh hmm 10 years ago maybe? A bit less probably. But the later ones haven't been as fun :P) leader of the Social Democrat party over here. Picture may or may not be slightly photoshopped. Also, statistic surveys say that our police tend to lean a bit more to the right; The Social Democrat party is our centre-left party so Lina feels more likely to have actually voted for The Moderates which is the centre-right party.

Well, but center-right by Scandinavian standards is still pretty darn liberal to Americans. I'm just thinking she's probably pretty pro-protectionism.

That is true : )

@Johnny: wiki rabbithole

Youtube video I learned it from.

Awesome, I will check those out after work!

@Lina: I don't know what most of those words mean. :o

Glad to see I'm not the only one. :/ *saw politics and went running*