Intelligence is too much of a dump state

[tivadar27]

Intelligence has become the new Charisma, you can totally ignore it on character creation/advancement unless it's needed for your class.

This stems from the fact that previously you got (IntMod*Level) skill ranks, and now it's just a flat IntMod. For classes with low skill ranks, the old formulae had Intelligence account for maybe 60% of your ranks if you had a good one, now that number is more like 20%. Charisma got fixed (as the previous dumpstat) because of resonance.

A suggestion might be to use Intelligence rather than Wisdom on Will Saves. What consitutes "Strength of Will/Mind" could be attributed to either, and Wisdom now serves double-duty for base perception as well as initiative, so losing Will saves wouldn't be the end of the world.

[Rysky]

I’m not really understanding your complaint. A Character is Trained in a number of skills equal to Class + Intelligence, so it works pretty much the same as 1st.

[CactusUnicorn]

His point is that it doesn't matter after first level.

[tivadar27]

Let's consider a modest, but good, intelligence: 14, and a somewhat average number of starting skill ranks: 4. Let's look at both PF1e and PF2e.

In PF1e, this accounts for 33.3% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/6 per level).

In PF2e, this accounts for 12.5% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/16, 9 advance, 2 intelligence, 1 background, 4 starting).

In other words: Intelligence, which was somewhat dumpable, but really hurt with regards to skill ranks, in PF1e, is now completely dumpable without having a significant impact on skill ranks in PF2e.

[Rysky]

tivadar27 wrote:

Let's consider a modest, but good, intelligence: 14, and a somewhat average number of starting skill ranks: 4. Let's look at both PF1e and PF2e.

In PF1e, this accounts for 33.3% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/6 per level).

In PF2e, this accounts for 12.5% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/16, 9 advance, 2 intelligence, 1 background, 4 starting).

In other words: Intelligence, which was somewhat dumpable, but really hurt with regards to skill ranks, in PF1e, is now completely dumpable without having a significant impact on skill ranks in PF2e.

It does impact it if you want to raise more than your Class given skills beyond Trained. If there’s only one or two skills you’re interested in (or you’re playing a Rogue) then it’s not of much use, but then that’s the same as 1st as well.

[tivadar27]

Rysky wrote:

tivadar27 wrote:

Let's consider a modest, but good, intelligence: 14, and a somewhat average number of starting skill ranks: 4. Let's look at both PF1e and PF2e.

In PF1e, this accounts for 33.3% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/6 per level).

In PF2e, this accounts for 12.5% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/16, 9 advance, 2 intelligence, 1 background, 4 starting).

In other words: Intelligence, which was somewhat dumpable, but really hurt with regards to skill ranks, in PF1e, is now completely dumpable without having a significant impact on skill ranks in PF2e.

It does impact it if you want to raise more than your Class given skills beyond Trained. If there’s only one or two skills you’re interested in (or you’re playing a Rogue) then it’s not of much use, but then that’s the same as 1st as well.

How so? Intelligence can only get you trained skills at level 1, and beyond that, it doesn't apply to your skill increases?

[Yossarian]

There's also the feat (than interestingly requires 12 int).

SKILL TRAINING
FEAT 1 - Prerequisites Intelligence 12
You become trained in the skill of your choice.
Special You can select this feat multiple times, choosing a new skill each time.

Int certainly seems like a stat you could ignore unless you need it for your class. Although it's also the key ability for 5 out of 17 skills, so that might be an issue depending on what you are trying to build.

[Alyran]

Rysky wrote:

tivadar27 wrote:

Let's consider a modest, but good, intelligence: 14, and a somewhat average number of starting skill ranks: 4. Let's look at both PF1e and PF2e.

In PF1e, this accounts for 33.3% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/6 per level).

In PF2e, this accounts for 12.5% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/16, 9 advance, 2 intelligence, 1 background, 4 starting).

In other words: Intelligence, which was somewhat dumpable, but really hurt with regards to skill ranks, in PF1e, is now completely dumpable without having a significant impact on skill ranks in PF2e.

It does impact it if you want to raise more than your Class given skills beyond Trained. If there’s only one or two skills you’re interested in (or you’re playing a Rogue) then it’s not of much use, but then that’s the same as 1st as well.

But INT doesn't affect Signature Skills in any way. You don't get more from extra INT. So someone with INT 18 and INT 8 have the same number of skills that they can boost past expert if they're the same class. The INT 18 just starts with more at Trained.

[Angel Hunter D]

Yeah, Int looks to me MUCH less relevant that I'd like. Unless it's for spells there's no reason to go over 14 even.

[Lucas Yew]

Do you get retroactive trained skills if you up your INT in the Playtest?

[Witch of Miracles]

To be fair, there's not really such a thing as a dump stat in this chargen -- just stats you don't give a +2. You can't gut INT to get more points elsewhere, other than taking an ancestry with an INT flaw.

And there's enough enforced MAD with the inclusion of Resonance, probably.

[Fuzzy-Wuzzy]

Lucas Yew wrote:

Do you get retroactive trained skills if you up your INT in the Playtest?

I bet you should but I can't find it in RAW. Ditto with getting a bonus language when your Int hits 14.

[Rysky]

tivadar27 wrote:

Rysky wrote:

tivadar27 wrote:

Let's consider a modest, but good, intelligence: 14, and a somewhat average number of starting skill ranks: 4. Let's look at both PF1e and PF2e.

In PF1e, this accounts for 33.3% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/6 per level).

In PF2e, this accounts for 12.5% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/16, 9 advance, 2 intelligence, 1 background, 4 starting).

In other words: Intelligence, which was somewhat dumpable, but really hurt with regards to skill ranks, in PF1e, is now completely dumpable without having a significant impact on skill ranks in PF2e.

It does impact it if you want to raise more than your Class given skills beyond Trained. If there’s only one or two skills you’re interested in (or you’re playing a Rogue) then it’s not of much use, but then that’s the same as 1st as well.

How so? Intelligence can only get you trained skills at level 1, and beyond that, it doesn't apply to your skill increases?

Because a Skill needs to be Trained before it can become Expert.

[Rysky]

Alyran wrote:

Rysky wrote:

tivadar27 wrote:

Let's consider a modest, but good, intelligence: 14, and a somewhat average number of starting skill ranks: 4. Let's look at both PF1e and PF2e.

In PF1e, this accounts for 33.3% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/6 per level).

In PF2e, this accounts for 12.5% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/16, 9 advance, 2 intelligence, 1 background, 4 starting).

In other words: Intelligence, which was somewhat dumpable, but really hurt with regards to skill ranks, in PF1e, is now completely dumpable without having a significant impact on skill ranks in PF2e.

It does impact it if you want to raise more than your Class given skills beyond Trained. If there’s only one or two skills you’re interested in (or you’re playing a Rogue) then it’s not of much use, but then that’s the same as 1st as well.

But INT doesn't affect Signature Skills in any way. You don't get more from extra INT. So someone with INT 18 and INT 8 have the same number of skills that they can boost past expert if they're the same class. The INT 18 just starts with more at Trained.

That’s more an issue with Signature Skills, which for the record, I loathe entirely.

[Jurassic Pratt]

It's certainly not a dump stat if you want to play Fighter and Monk who can do things outside of combat since they only get 3+int trained skills...

[tivadar27]

You know... Additional skill points *and* signature skills according to your INT bonus would be really helpful actually...

[Alyran]

Rysky wrote:

Alyran wrote:

Rysky wrote:

tivadar27 wrote:

Let's consider a modest, but good, intelligence: 14, and a somewhat average number of starting skill ranks: 4. Let's look at both PF1e and PF2e.

In PF1e, this accounts for 33.3% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/6 per level).

In PF2e, this accounts for 12.5% of your skill ranks over all levels (2/16, 9 advance, 2 intelligence, 1 background, 4 starting).

In other words: Intelligence, which was somewhat dumpable, but really hurt with regards to skill ranks, in PF1e, is now completely dumpable without having a significant impact on skill ranks in PF2e.

It does impact it if you want to raise more than your Class given skills beyond Trained. If there’s only one or two skills you’re interested in (or you’re playing a Rogue) then it’s not of much use, but then that’s the same as 1st as well.

But INT doesn't affect Signature Skills in any way. You don't get more from extra INT. So someone with INT 18 and INT 8 have the same number of skills that they can boost past expert if they're the same class. The INT 18 just starts with more at Trained.

That’s more an issue with Signature Skills, which for the record, I loathe entirely.

I do too. But the point stands that INT is borderline useless as written.

[Cloudwalker]

I reached the same conclusion too. Intelligence is pretty much useless unless you use it for class features. Not only it has much weaker effect on skill numbers, many traditionally int skills moved to other stats. I don't see a non-int based character raising it ever.

[ZedainTurkBlitz]

I too found this to be a problem, I actually thought it was underdeveloped in Pathfinder 1.0 as well (along with Cha of course and love that resonance helps to fix that) as of now I don't see a reason to ever have more than 14 int if you aren't a class that needs it. there is almost no mechanical advantage. I was hoping to see int become more necessary for other classes not less. its cool to develop classes that use atypical stats but I like there to be some mechanical advantage as well. Resonance is a great example of how Cha got fixed and any class can use it as an advantage.

Also I personally don't like how difficult it is to get a negative stat mod. its cool to play characters that have advantages and disadvantages that aren't wholly developed on ancestry. I thought 1.0 did a good job limiting this (no less than 7) while making it an option. Diversity in concepts is fun and seeing people be good at things and bad at others is neat. Which is important here because it shouldn't be the go to option but a option taken to enhance complexity of play. So if Int had some mechanic to offer it would be a harder choice.

[Bardarok]

tivadar27 wrote:

You know... Additional skill points *and* signature skills according to your INT bonus would be really helpful actually...

I could get behind that it would solve the problem of signature skills as well. Might make Wizards and Alchemists better at skills but they are two skills behind most classes already, hopefully behind all classes since Barb, fighter, and monk should really all have at least 4 sklls.

[Mackanstein]

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Lucas Yew wrote:

Do you get retroactive trained skills if you up your INT in the Playtest?

I bet you should but I can't find it in RAW. Ditto with getting a bonus language when your Int hits 14.

Bonus language text seems to specify 1st level, while the trained skills text doesn't.