So yehp , I'm currently playing in a compaing where i'm , by far, the most experienced player and the most knowledgeable.
So, insted of playing a full caster or something that could mest up their game , I decided to go with an unchained monk ,to keep myself in combat and maybe some parkour
Even that I let the other players shine out of combat, help the GM sometimes , help ALL of them with their spell selection but still giving them room for self improvement (all of them are 9 or 6 lvl spell casters exept for a U.rogue) One of the GM(there is 2 of them wordbuilding and switching ) told me that I do too much damage and I should nerf myself.
He told me that I may cause the encounters to be unbalanced,so I should turn down my Character
The party consist of a Sorcerer(undead bloodline),Wizard(fire school),Unchained Rogue ,Kensai Magus (1 lvl dip crossblooded sorcerer) and a Mesmerist and Etth Sheiranh(my U.Monk)
Also say that the U.Rogue is using the Jaunters chain(quite unbalanced) and the Kensai Magus is optimizing as much as he can for damage , both the GM characters and after me, the most knowledgeable who also didn't want to help the other players(for them to discover all by themselves,quite a dikc move in my opinion)
20,14,12,12,17,5 (the stats are correct, we use a diferent system)
Traits Heavy Hiter , Indomithable faith
1 Power Attack-Dodge
2 Deflect arrows
3 Dragon style
4 High jump
5 Dragon ferocity- flying kick
I went for as much damage as I could , keeping a low initiative to let the others act first and having some out-combat utility (as much as a monk can have hahahahah)
Is he right or wrong?
Waiting for you answer...
It's hard to know since we don't know your table dynamic.
But as someone who has GM'd, generally speaking if I ask a player to tone things down, it's because I want them to tone it down. And not doing so is not going to make me happy. Because I'm not asking because I don't want your character to succeed, I ask because the other PCs have trouble compared to your character (in my observation).
So, if your GM is like myself, yeah you should restrain your character. You might ask for clarification in what way your character creates problems.
I do to much damage ( it hasn't been tested in table yet) +8 (1d8+17) +8(1d8+12) + extra attack if ki point
If you're the only experienced player and your GM is asking you to tone down the character then yes, that means that the GM wants you to tone it down.
As a GM it's hard to make balanced encounters when one character is stonger/more combat effective than the others. I'm guessing that for anything to be a threat to you would mean that the others couldn't hit it and their characters would die almost right away.
Playing in a game like that as a player sucks.
Running a game like that as a GM sucks.
Also, without knowing how your group generated their stats, you have a 5? With the numbers that you have, and the group that you're a part of, why would you dump something so extremely?
Sure, you "let" the other characters shine out of combat but that might not mean anything, depending on the other players and how much combat is involved.
Also, combat is (usually) the main threat to a PC and, for a lot of groups, the main thing about the game.
If I were in your situation I would think it would be more effective to play a support character (most likely a bard) that can make the new players better at what they're trying to do. (This also lets them feel like they're being really good in and out of combat, which will probably increase their enjoyment of the game.)
Math it on the stats by level table.
At Level 5, which it seems you're at, you should average 11 to-hit and 13.75 damage-per-round. Your damage looks high, but your accuracy looks low, so you may be closer than you think. Check your numbers carefully and make sure you're not exceeding blue on this chart (which is the limit, NOT the goal), and you should be good.
Well. Its dragon style. Not fluffy bunny style.
Only nerf I'd suggest is changing styles for one with more control less damage and you should meet his requirements and still not lose much
Otherwise I agree with claxon that it means something when a gm asks you to tone it down.
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Wait a gm is asking a monk to do less damage, red flag #1, both gms have optimized gmpcs and are asking you to tone down your MONK red flag #2, the rest of the party is playing full casters and they want the monk to slow down with his damage when damage is the last thing you should be worried about coming from a monk red flag #3.
A control wizard dont do much damage. A support/buff bard dont do much damage. Every group needs a high damage hitter as well as control and support/buff.
If the GM expect 4 characters to do 25% of the damage each, then you should have a talk about roles and how you contribute differently.
In my opinion, the worst role for the most expirienced/best at optimizing person in a party to take is that of a striker. Striker is nothing but the numbers, and it is pretty obvious if you are 'better' then your companions and leaves them feeling inadequate.
Personally, I believe the best role for the best optimizer in a party is that of support. When your job is to make everyone else more effective, being better optimized makes your companions shine and feel more important and makes everyone happier. Bard and Evangelist Cleric are obvious ways to go with this, but there are plenty of other options as well.
Honestly, I'd look at the build of the other players.
If you see three places player 1 chose badly, 2 places player 2 chose badly, and 3 places player 3 chose badly, I'd say to tone down by taking 2-3 optimal feats and replacing them with sub-optimal feats, or replacing one really important feat for a purely fluff feat. You'll never be able to balance yourself against someone else's niche when you're damage and they're not, but you can rate their character build efficiency and decide how much better your character is at your niche than they are at their own.
Factoring in the tier of the class may also help some, monk (even uc) isn't the strongest class in the game. It'll take fewer mistakes to bring a monk down to sub par even if it's easier to mess up a bard.
Cavall wrote:
Otherwise I agree with claxon that it means something when a gm asks you to tone it down.
Depends. I've been told by a GM that my level 10 shield using fighter's AC 27 is ruining the game and I should tone it down so mook fights become a challenge once more.
Sometimes the problem is the GM.
As a GM, I've rarely found that DPS is a problem. I mean, it's incredibly easy to add more HP. Your damage is high, but it's something a vanilla fighter could easily reach, so ... is the GM somewhat inexperienced?
I've experienced far more problems with excessive AC, because it's not easy to up the bad guys' attack bonuses without wiping out the rest of the party.
(Just to be clear, though, as a GM or a player I very rarely find myself with a player who wants a CharOp build, and when I do, it's usually a new player who is bad at the game anyway. My group's long-time players tend to self-balance, such as my making deliberately suboptimal choices for my mesmerist that started with a total +13 stat mods.)
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Just take some of that 20 Strength and put it into that 5 Charisma, and call it a day. Quick and simple. It doesn't put any more of a burden on yourself and allows you to basically use all the same abilities you already have and will slightly lessen your ability to hit and inflict damage. It doesn't create a more difficult burden for you, and slightly will lessen the burden of the GM, which is essentially all that he's asking for.
christian kramer wrote: Just take some of that 20 Strength and put it into that 5 Charisma, and call it a day. Quick and simple. It doesn't put any more of a burden on yourself and allows you to basically use all the same abilities you already have and will slightly lessen your ability to hit and inflict damage. It doesn't create a more difficult burden for you, and slightly will lessen the burden of the GM, which is essentially all that he's asking for. From what he has said they don't use point buy so the only change he can make to follow this instruction would be to make his str 5 and his cha 20... This still doesn't change the fact that his character isn't actually an issue.
First I would have a conversation with both GM's at once. Make sure they agree that your character is broken and make sure to get them to tell you exactly what they think is broken. Then I would request to try and play the character as is to see if its a big problem in game with the understanding that you will change it if it is. Its difficult to say without looking at the other characters, but your monk while optimized, doesn't look like a problem character. Damage(particularly melee single target) is probably the least problematic thing a character can do well. Frankly out of the rest of the party, the magus is probably the only one who can do good single target damage, which is something a party needs. Everyone else probably does much better with groups of enemies and far exceed you in utility.
Frankly, I'd say it depends on what he means by "nerf yourself". If he can show, mathematically, that you're doing significantly more damage than anyone else, I'd hold back a bit in combat. But I wouldn't undo your build decisions.
I'm running two Kitsune characters, my main and a cohort, and using the Kyubi Paragon prestige class. Next level, they're both going to get Kumiho Form (think the Fox form, but as per the Beast Form IV spell, with a twice-per-day breath weapon). This doesn't sound like much until I also mention that they both have claws, giving them up to 8 melee attacks per round between them, applying their dex to both attack and damage, with their base dex at 20 and 22.
I intend to save this for the "Hail Mary" moment, save the party type thing, not for normal combat. THIS is somewhat reasonable, in my opinion. Telling you to rebuild would be asinine in the extreme.
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Zarius wrote: Frankly, I'd say it depends on what he means by "nerf yourself". If he can show, mathematically, that you're doing significantly more damage than anyone else, I'd hold back a bit in combat. But I wouldn't undo your build decisions.
I'm running two Kitsune characters, my main and a cohort, and using the Kyubi Paragon prestige class. Next level, they're both going to get Kumiho Form (think the Fox form, but as per the Beast Form IV spell, with a twice-per-day breath weapon). This doesn't sound like much until I also mention that they both have claws, giving them up to 8 melee attacks per round between them, applying their dex to both attack and damage, with their base dex at 20 and 22.
I intend to save this for the "Hail Mary" moment, save the party type thing, not for normal combat. THIS is somewhat reasonable, in my opinion. Telling you to rebuild would be asinine in the extreme.
In all honesty that isn't really all that powerful either.
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doomman47 wrote: From what he has said they don't use point buy so the only change he can make to follow this instruction would be to make his str 5 and his cha 20... This still doesn't change the fact that his character isn't actually an issue. The beauty of the game is that the players and the GM can literally do whatever they want to do, as long as they can all compromise and come to an agreement. 75% of the "Is my GM right or wrong" issues are mostly because either side would rather be asses and try to best each other with numbers, RAW vs RAI, or advocacy from forum support instead of just talking it out and be willing to concede a little bit for a smoother and less stressful experience.
Don't try to beat the game... try to have fun and tell a good story with your friends. Doing slightly less damage, doesn't make your character any less of a high flying ass kicking monk.
Now I have several options in mind thanks to you guys and talking with the GM's
1-Use a Quarterstaff or another monk weapon in order to hold back and use my "all mighty fist" in the right moment
2- lesser my Str and up that Cha (this doesn't make much sense lore-wise but still viable option)
3-Change dragon style for Jabbing Style or another one
4-Delay Dragon Ferocity by choosing another feat(open to suggestions)
The GM's don't actually agree , one of them tells me to not hold back and go all in and the other wants me to turn down a little
MensisChemske wrote: Now I have several options in mind thanks to you guys and talking with the GM's
1-Use a Quarterstaff or another monk weapon in order to hold back and use my "all mighty fist" in the right moment
2- lesser my Str and up that Cha (this doesn't make much sense lore-wise but still viable option)
3-Change dragon style for Jabbing Style or another one
4-Delay Dragon Ferocity by choosing another feat(open to suggestions)
The GM's don't actually agree , one of them tells me to not hold back and go all in and the other wants me to turn down a little
Listen to the 1st one then since the 2nd one just doesn't seem to know what they are talking about even with the unchained, monk is still one of the weaker classes in game so they are just making issues were there are none, plus if main dm actually wants you to go all out not doing so is likely to get your character killed.
doomman47 wrote: In all honesty that isn't really all that powerful either. I haven't pointed out that both characters are able, easily, to achieve pretty significant ACs (28, each, before shift, and both can KEEP everything that gives them AC when shifting to any form), have a high enough Reflex save (and Evasion) to make them practically immune to AOEs, and the +8 to Dex and the size bonus to attack will push them both well over a +20 melee attack bonus.
To put it another way, our GM has already had to put us up against a CR 14 dungeon dive with a party of level 8s or lower. If I were to use this in main combat regularly, my healer and his grappler cohort would basically out-damage BOTH DPs builds in the party combined.
Asking me not to pull all the stops out in normal game play is perfectly reasonable.
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Eh, if the gm asked you to nicely, probably best to do so.
Sound like your dmx should talk before the group here makes up stories about who is right or wrong and why.
Zarius wrote: doomman47 wrote: In all honesty that isn't really all that powerful either. I haven't pointed out that both characters are able, easily, to achieve pretty significant ACs (28, each, before shift, and both can KEEP everything that gives them AC when shifting to any form), have a high enough Reflex save (and Evasion) to make them practically immune to AOEs, and the +8 to Dex and the size bonus to attack will push them both well over a +20 melee attack bonus.
To put it another way, our GM has already had to put us up against a CR 14 dungeon dive with a party of level 8s or lower. If I were to use this in main combat regularly, my healer and his grappler cohort would basically out-damage BOTH DPs builds in the party combined.
Asking me not to pull all the stops out in normal game play is perfectly reasonable. While not as good on the touch ac, that seems on par with what a fighter can accomplish, and if you add 2 more levels a barbarian can be even more terrifying. Or just a level 6 sorcerer which could out dpr you with ease.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
As a GM, something I've had some luck with is asking players with super-duper characters to take more actions that are fun and cinematic, even though they're less optimal from a game perspective.
For example, instead of the Swashbuckler full attacking every round ad nauseum, how about jumping off a table, back-flipping over the opponent's head, and stabbing him in the back! For the alchemist, instead of throwing a bomb every round that effectively never misses (Touch AC!), experiment with the dozens of flavourful but underpowered alchemical concoctions in the book. For the usual power-attacking, raging barbarian, once in a while how about squeezing your opponent to death with a bear hug (grapple plus unarmed damage) instead of hitting him with your great sword? Etc. It's not a guarantee, but if the player is receptive, it helps liven up gameplay while leaving room for the other PCs to shine.
It's perfectly rational from a "win at all costs" perspective for a player to use the same successful strategy over and over and over again, but it can be more fun to change things up a little.
doomman47 wrote: Zarius wrote: doomman47 wrote: In all honesty that isn't really all that powerful either. I haven't pointed out that both characters are able, easily, to achieve pretty significant ACs (28, each, before shift, and both can KEEP everything that gives them AC when shifting to any form), have a high enough Reflex save (and Evasion) to make them practically immune to AOEs, and the +8 to Dex and the size bonus to attack will push them both well over a +20 melee attack bonus.
To put it another way, our GM has already had to put us up against a CR 14 dungeon dive with a party of level 8s or lower. If I were to use this in main combat regularly, my healer and his grappler cohort would basically out-damage BOTH DPs builds in the party combined.
Asking me not to pull all the stops out in normal game play is perfectly reasonable. While not as good on the touch ac, that seems on par with what a fighter can accomplish, and if you add 2 more levels a barbarian can be even more terrifying. Or just a level 6 sorcerer which could out dpr you with ease. Just crunched the numbers. AC comes out to 33, Touch AC comes out to 24. All things considered, a touch AC of 24 is still pretty hefty, given how little actually applies to it.
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