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We've been told NOTHING is changing to alter the past and no earthshaking events are happening between classic and new pathfinder. Ergo, pathfinder lore and backgrounds are still quite valid.
PRD, bestiary [goblins]: "they prefer human and gnome flesh". So, unless they retroactively go back and remove that [which they've said they aren't], the race has a history of eating humans and gnomes: that's an immutable fact. So either they still have that trait or people just remember that they do: it's not much of a difference.
Nothing is changing between editions...but stuff is still changing in the current one. Return of the Runelords is happening, for example, and its events are very much gonna be part of PF2's canon.
Something could easily happen to make goblins more acceptable as heroes in that AP, just for example.
And the fact that goblins eat people (which they do occasionally) is not super relevant to whether they're accepted. That depends on a lot of factors, a major one of which is whether they have a reputation for eating people, which we have no data on. I've certainly never gotten the impression that them eating people is the first thing people think of when they think of goblins in-universe.
I don't think there's any point in arguing in a separate thread about whether including goblins or not is a good thing. (So that should end that, right?)
However, I'm curious if this is the kind of thing which is 'part of the playtest' as in has the inclusion of Goblins-as-core been locked down as a done deal? Or is this the kind of thing that would be changed during the playtest (in the hypothetical case that the majority was opposed and not many were in favor)?
Here's what Vic had to say about it (link):
"Goblins will be an ancestry in the Playtest Rulebook; that much we are committed to.
We are going to ask for your feedback after playing with them during the playtest, and that feedback will contribute to how, when, and where they are presented in the Second Edition rule system."
So based on feedback, Goblins may not end up in the CRB, but another book. But wherever they do end up, they will be in the playtest book.
They sometimes make major edits too.
Yeah, but they said they weren't doing that for a new edition.
Nothing is changing between editions...but stuff is still changing in the current one.
Well I assume SOMETHING is happening between edition, just nothing major.
Return of the Runelords is happening, for example, and its events are very much gonna be part of PF2's canon.
Yeah, the canon is staying and part of canon is cannibal, people eating, pyro adhd goblins...
Something could easily happen to make goblins more acceptable as heroes in that AP, just for example.
Yeah but they said no earth shaking events... it hard to imagine "more acceptable as heroes" and minor. If it's part of an AP then that's happening AFTER the change so that aren't acceptable at start.
And the fact that goblins eat people (which they do occasionally) is not super relevant to whether they're accepted.
It isn't? Would YOU mind if your neighbor, mailman, receptionist, ect is a cannibal and eats people? Now ask if it matters in the game why anyone would want them around.
That depends on a lot of factors, a major one of which is whether they have a reputation for eating people, which we have no data on.
But we do. It's in there monster and PC writeup. It's one of those things you can roll info for. And as goblins have a REALLY low cr and are common it's not a hard roll. Unless you are saying the info under the monster has no bearing on it's rep.
I've certainly never gotten the impression that them eating people is the first thing people think of when they think of goblins in-universe.
Yeah, there is the raiding and the firestarting... Like I said before, their eating people is the icing on the 'goblins are just awful humanoids' cake. Maybe it's not reason one to hate them but it's a known reason.
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Yeah but they said no earth shaking events... it hard to imagine "more acceptable as heroes" and minor. If it's part of an AP then that's happening AFTER the change so that aren't acceptable at start.
That's not quite what was said:
We have never said that there would be some magical event that changed everyone's opinions of goblins overnight. In fact, we expect that some areas might not be too welcoming of them, even after any events that might occur to change some perspective on them.
Nothing there about no major events, just none that magically change everyone's opinion about goblins overnight. The two are very different. Major events to make them more acceptable are still very much on the table, they just won't instantly overcome the existing reputation completely.
I am curious how the pro-Goblin side would feel about having goblins in a non-Core supplement but very soon after Core was released. Would this offer less value? How?I do not recognize a distinction between "core" and "non-core" save for "what book do I have to open in order to look something up."
Given you're going to have to open up multiple books anyway, are you saying you're okay with goblins getting added to the game after the initial release (either in a large hardcover with lots of other ancestries and classes, a special Inner Sea Races book or even a Goblins of Golarion book)?
I feel like I have no reason to want for there to be less content in a book I am going to buy. So my preference would be for there to be 30+ ancestries in the core rules, which is obviously not feasible, but I have no reason to want for there to be less of anything in the core rules. Put all the classes in there too; I hate the summoner, but I can just ban it again.
Nothing there about no major events, just none that magically change everyone's opinion about goblins overnight. The two are very different. Major events to make them more acceptable are still very much on the table, they just won't instantly overcome the existing reputation completely.
No major event was when they were talking about the switchover to the new edition. So no major event in general and no major magic event for goblins from what I recall.
I would feel better if an earth shattering event DID happen as I think you'd need something that big to make it work.
I feel like I have no reason to want for there to be less content in a book I am going to buy. So my preference would be for there to be 30+ ancestries in the core rules, which is obviously not feasible, but I have no reason to want for there to be less of anything in the core rules. Put all the classes in there too; I hate the summoner, but I can just ban it again.
Given the number of pages do have a limit, are you okay if goblins are taken out as something that isn't widely wanted and replaced with something else that is more widely wanted? (Whether it be more feats, magic items, spells, more ancestry options for the other ancestries or even a different ancestry).
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No major event was when they were talking about the switchover to the new edition. So no major event in general and no major magic event for goblins from what I recall.
Right. But a major event in Return of the Runelords isn't a major event between editions (which is what they said there'd be none of). It's a major event in an AP...and they've already said those will be reflected in the canon of PF2 (the Worldwound is gonna be closed, for example).
I would feel better if an earth shattering event DID happen as I think you'd need something that big to make it work.
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised then.
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Given the number of pages do have a limit, are you okay if goblins are taken out as something that isn't widely wanted and replaced with something else that is more widely wanted? (Whether it be more feats, magic items, spells, more ancestry options for the other ancestries or even a different ancestry).
I would want to know specifically what I'm getting, but I will say that more feats, spells, magic items, etc. is less appealing than "more classes, ancestries, and backgrounds". More of the top level (ABC) choices in the core rulebook, and leave the glut of magic items and additional feats for later books.
Chief Technical Officer
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Vic, how will you handle self selection bias from the playtest though? If the players who are pro-goblin in 2E core rules play goblins in the playtest, and report that they're a wonderful addition to the game, didn't cause problems, etc, and the players who are anti-goblin in 2E core rules don't play goblins, and therefore have nothing to report about them in their playtest games, that would skew your results pretty significantly.
If everybody is only testing the parts of the game they like, that would be a problem. However, I have every confidence that there are plenty of people out there who are going to prioritize their efforts on the stuff they expect to dislike. (This is a good thing.)
No major event was when they were talking about the switchover to the new edition. So no major event in general and no major magic event for goblins from what I recall.Right. But a major event in Return of the Runelords isn't a major event between editions (which is what they said there'd be none of). It's a major event in an AP...and they've already said those will be reflected in the canon of PF2 (the Worldwound is gonna be closed, for example).
I would feel better if an earth shattering event DID happen as I think you'd need something that big to make it work.I think you'll be pleasantly surprised then.
Well you seem to read things differently than I did. My take is wildly different on events that could happen.
"pleasantly surprised": it would be really great if i was but I haven't been able to come up with a satisfying way to shift goblins into the acceptable column.
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