I have a player who's taking a Scarlet Spider familiar because it's thematic, despite being one of the distinctly less good familiars. The spider gives +3 on Climb -- a skill no wizard ever uses -- and it's Tiny size, meaning it can't flank and if it tries to deliver a touch attack it eats an AoO first. Also, its bite literally does no damage (d3-4) and has the most pathetic poison attack of anything with poison: DC 10 Fort save, -1 Str. To be fair, the spider has a few things going for it: good Stealth, good AC (18 at start), good Climb and Acrobatics. But it's still not great.
Okay, so I want to offer the player some better options if possible, within RAW. What's out there?
-- As the wizard levels up, familiars add "virtual" HD, but they don't get feats and don't get skill ranks either, right? Though their skills might improve as their Int slowly goes up. Correct? BUT there are a handful of familiar feats that can be taken at creation. Are any of these any good?
-- Skimming through the familiar archetypes, most look pretty meh. However, the Emissary familiar is interesting. Instead of Alertness, the familiar gets Guidance at will, which basically means you walk around all day with either +1 on saves or +1 to hit. Then at 3rd level it gets a domain power once / day. The PC will probably worship Asmodeus, so there are a bunch of interesting domains there, though the once / day restriction is pretty limiting. But then there's the Share Will, which... huh, if I'm reading this right, the spider is immune to mind-affecting stuff, notwithstanding its having an Int score. Which basically means you're getting the Improved Iron Will feat -- reroll a failed Will save once / day. That's not bad.
What else is out there?
Doug M.
Okay, followup question: Does the spider's poison attack scale with level? IOW, as the spider gains virtual hit dice, does the DC of the poison increase?
Doug M.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Okay, followup question: Does the spider's poison attack scale with level? IOW, as the spider gains virtual hit dice, does the DC of the poison increase?
Doug M.
RAW, no. It needs real HD for that. But letting it scale with its master's level is a common house rule.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: RAW, no. It needs real HD for that. But letting it scale with its master's level is a common house rule. Okay. Cite? (Not "I don't believe you" cite, but "I believe you, where can I confirm" cite.)
-- Wow the standard familiars don't scale well with level, do they.
Doug M.
Familiars aren't suppose to be battle buddies unless you take the mauler archetype. No one uses familiars to attack unless they are forced to.
Best bet would just change the bonus its master gets. +3 to stealth or something else thematic of a spider.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar
Quote: "Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher. There is no other text about familiars hit die, so they gain nothing. The super low HP from having only one hit die is bypassed by having the low HP from half master's HP.
SorrySleeping wrote: No one uses familiars to attack unless they are forced to. It's obviously intended that you'll use them for touch attacks to deliver touch spells. But at higher levels, that kinda breaks down.
Doug M.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: SorrySleeping wrote: No one uses familiars to attack unless they are forced to. It's obviously intended that you'll use them for touch attacks to deliver touch spells. But at higher levels, that kinda breaks down.
Doug M.
My car is full of features I almost never use driving to or from work, or around town.
Your mileage may vary.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Also, its bite literally does no damage (d3-4)... It actually deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage. That isn't very good, but technically isn't no damage.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: It's obviously intended that you'll use them for touch attacks to deliver touch spells. But at higher levels, that kinda breaks down. Not all touch spells are attacks, and allies won't hit you with an opportunity attack for entering their space and buffing them. The only thing is getting to them - Invisibility can help with that.
The only time I've used deliver touch spells is buffs or healing for my allies.
I've also never used the disguise at my table nor has another player (~2yrs of playing now). I've put points into disguise before.
Not everything is going to be used, or even used equally. The player picked up the spider knowing full well it was a bad option. Let him deal with it.
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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote: Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Okay, followup question: Does the spider's poison attack scale with level? IOW, as the spider gains virtual hit dice, does the DC of the poison increase?
Doug M.
RAW, no. It needs real HD for that. But letting it scale with its master's level is a common house rule. There's no meaningful RAW to this.
Quote: Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher. Some people read that to mean only for effects that target the familiar, but there is no reason in the text to think this. And the poison is certainly an effect and it's certainly related to the number of hit dice.
The whole thing has needed an FAQ for a very long time.
You can definitely come up with a different kind of familiar bonus if you want, I would recommend re flavoring the Wasp or Scorpion Familiar, as it gives one of the best familiar bonuses: +4 to initiative.
There's also the prospect of the improved familiar feat as something to build towards. You could find a type of spider to use, or reflavor something like the tidepool dragon, which as is comes with 2 feats and 0-2nd level spellcasting as a sorcerer on its own. Give the player some choices, either by retraining those feats and spells known, or by simply allowing a familiar of the same type with different choices from the printed books.
The spider works well with the protector archetype if the wizard would like a little extra defense. It has a dex of 21 and +7 to hit so that's plenty of opportunities to use the the loyal body guard ability should he find himself in a tricky situation. He would want to keep an eye on it's health though.
Things the scarlet spider familiar has going for it right out the gate:
1. Dex 21: please note that
Familiar Basics wrote: Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind. (emphasis: mine)
2. Darkvision 60'
3. Immune - Mind Affecting Effects (this might go away because Type changes from Vermin; I've never run into this before)
4. Racial Modifiers to Skills: Acrobatics +8 - that and Dex mean that without the PC spending a single Rank on Acrobatics his familiar can use the skill to avoid AoOs with a +13 on the check meaning that folks with a 14 or less CMD can't react fast enough to take retribution when it attacks them
5. Poison: as mentioned above the DC is weak but it can certainly be improved upon (see next section)
Ok so you've got a Tiny sized creature that can melee attack at +7 (as good as the party martial almost) but deals terrible damage. It's also susceptible to AoOs due to Size though there are ways to mitigate/negate these. Also even if it just deals 1 non-lethal it also delivers Poison. What can we do with these points?
1. Stealth and scouting: This creature has a 6 Int but can't talk. It does however understand the master's language. There are spells to mitigate it's lack of communication and, depending on GM fiat, it might tap a leg to indicate yes/no or numbers etc. Add in the fact that it's Size gets it into nearly all spaces, it's +17 base Stealth score is near invisibility at level 1 and it possesses Darkvision 60' and this creature is an excellent spy from the outset
2. Combat: the scarlet spider is not like its Marvel comics equivalent; it's not a super fighter. It is however extremely accurate. This familiar is basically a poison delivery system. Now Fort saves are usually pretty high on your enemies so DC 10 isn't great. To boost this you might consider
a. Swap the familiar's starting feat of Weapon Finesse (useless; see quote above) to the Monster Feat: Ability Focus. This adds +2 to the Save DC of the spider's poison
b. Take levels of Witch with the Beast Bonded archetype, give master's feats to spider to take this feat more than once
3. Evolved Familiar feat: there's all kinds of goodies you can get with 1 Point Evolutions, including:
a. Bleed: the familiar can inflict 1d6 Bleed with a successful hit
b. Climb: give your spider a Climb 30; great for spies!
c. Improved Damage: now your spider deals 1d6 -4
d. Improved Natural Armor: +2 Natural Armor (should stack with bonus for Familiars); can be taken every five levels and stacks with itself
e. Magic Attacks: for overcoming DR/Magic
f. Reach: now it threatens 5'; now it's a Flanking Buddy
g. Scent: for obvious advantage to spies
h. Skilled: +8 to a skill; might help later (it's complicated, see below)
4. Use Magic Device: This type of familiar isn't optimal (base Cha 2) for this option, but over time with enough boosts from spells, Skilled Evolution and Polymorph effects, this creature could serve the master as a second set of hands for wielding wands, casting from scrolls, etc. Familiars built for this purpose want Skilled to buff their own UMD; they should also take the starting feat Extra Traits, gaining the trait Dangerously Curious to make UMD a Class Skill (+3) and receiving a +1 Trait bonus to the skill as well.
5. Archetypes: depending on what kind of role you want your Familiar to serve there are a variety of these that could work. 2 have already been mentioned but here's a couple more
a. Figment: now your little buddy is undying! Also it doesn't deliver Touch spells, speak with other spiders or allow you to scry on it, but you can upgrade it every night with at least 1 Point worth of Evolutions starting at 3rd level
b. Mascot: split this familiar with other spellcasters in the group?
c. Pilferer: great addition to a spy type familiar to boost Stealth and grant Sleight of Hand to the mix
d. Prankster: Sleight of Hand, a few cantrips at will, and Perform: Comedy at the cost of a few other Familiar abilities, and Improved Dirty Trick too!
e. Sage: strictly for non-combat, suddenly your Int 5 + Master's Class level needs glasses!
f. School Familiar: lots of utility here
g. Valet: the ultimate Helper Monkey! Lots of utility for the wizard that likes to craft...
There's plenty more ways to utilize/optimize a familiar and even though the scarlet spider is sub-optimal at some things it's still got enough going for it that it could be a lot of fun.
One last thing to think about: say the wizard gives it the Mauler familiar archetype. Then gives it the 1 Pt Evolution Climb. From 3rd level on, if the wizard is Small size he can ride his Medium sized familiar around, firing spells while hanging upside down from the ceiling! That's kind of awesome right?
Mark, this is super interesting and helpful.
Mark Hoover 330 wrote: 1. Dex 21: please note that
Familiar Basics wrote: Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons. Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind. (emphasis: mine)
So, Weapon Finesse is completely pointless and should be swapped out for another feat.
Quote: 2. Darkvision 60' Which is about as much darkvision as anyone ever gets. Okay.
Quote: . Immune - Mind Affecting Effects (this might go away because Type changes from Vermin; I've never run into this before) It goes away. This got clarified in the familiar splatbook. Vermin familiars lose the "mindless" descriptor. I'm not normally in a hurry to adopt splatbook interpretations of RAW but this just obviously makes sense and is consistent with other cases of a mindless thing gaining an Int score, like constructs and such.
Quote: 4. Racial Modifiers to Skills: Acrobatics +8 - that and Dex mean that without the PC spending a single Rank on Acrobatics his familiar can use the skill to avoid AoOs with a +13 on the check meaning that folks with a 14 or less CMD can't react fast enough to take retribution when it attacks them Fair enough. This doesn't scale with level, though, so by midlevels it'll no longer be a sure thing.
Quote: 5. Poison: as mentioned above the DC is weak but it can certainly be improved upon (see next section) The weak DC is only half the problem. The other is that -1 damage to Str for max four rounds is a pretty weak debuff. That said, there is a use for it that's been mostly overlooked: it's handy for subduing captives.
Quote: 1. Stealth and scouting: This creature has a 6 Int but can't talk. It does however understand the master's language. There are spells to mitigate it's lack of communication and, depending on GM fiat, it might tap a leg to indicate yes/no or numbers etc. Add in the fact that it's Size gets it into nearly all spaces, it's +17 base Stealth score is near invisibility at level 1 and it possesses Darkvision 60' and this creature is an excellent spy from the outset Okay, fair enough.
Quote: a. Swap the familiar's starting feat of Weapon Finesse (useless; see quote above) to the Monster Feat: Ability Focus. This adds +2 to the Save DC of the spider's poison Probably not the best possible feat but sure, what the hey. Now, it's still not clear whether poison DCs scale with familiar level. I think they probably should, in which case it would be 10 + HD/2 + Con bonus (0). So, it would go up to DC 11 at 2nd level and so forth. Adding the feat keeps this attack viable into midlevels, though by level 10 or so the fact that the spider can't improve its Stealth or Acrobatics will begin to really pinch.
Quote: a. Bleed: the familiar can inflict 1d6 Bleed with a successful hit
b. Climb: give your spider a Climb 30; great for spies!
c. Improved Damage: now your spider deals 1d6 -4
d. Improved Natural Armor: +2 Natural Armor (should stack with bonus for Familiars); can be taken every five levels and stacks with itself
e. Magic Attacks: for overcoming DR/Magic
f. Reach: now it threatens 5'; now it's a Flanking Buddy
g. Scent: for obvious advantage to spies
h. Skilled: +8 to a skill; might help later (it's complicated, see below)
Bleed is actually pretty amazing. Climb... it's sort of daft that a spider doesn't have this already; go figure.
[skippping stuff about particular archetypes] Huh, there is definitely more there than I'd realized. This particular PC is more likely to want the Emissary, but the Figment is pretty darn interesting (it would be a perfect fit for Strange Aeons). The Mascot... if you have a half-orc doing the Sacred Tattoo + Fate's Favored thing, then this little guy can regularly give +2 to his AC. tThat's nice.
I notice that the Evocation school familiar is a must-have for blaster evokers. Doesn't seem to have attracted much attention, though. And the Mauler familar has all kinds of fun applications, fair enough!
Thanks again for a thought-provoking post!
Doug M.
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Per an old thread, both James Jocobs and Sean K Reynolds were quoted, on opposite sides.
Sean K Reynolds wrote: Technically, that should scale with HD, so as written, a wiz20's silvanshee improved familiar would have 7 uses of 10d6 LOH per day. Which is, of course, way too good. We're probably going to errata the silvanshee so the damage still scales up with HD but it remains capped at 1/day. Since the silvanshee was errata'd, that means they didn't want that portion to level with familiar HD.
So, your spider's poison does improve with level.
/cevah
Well, SKR has left the building, but JJ is still here. And "opposing opinions from two different designers" doesn't really clarify matters.
It is a little surprising that something this basic -- minor, but basic -- has never been FAQed or errataed. The familiar rules are in the core Players Guide, which came out almost ten years ago.
Doug M.
...surely this must have come up in PFS play? Everyone and his brother takes the greensting scorpion.
Doug M.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Everyone and his brother takes the greensting scorpion. And how many use them to attack with? Most likely nil to none...
I honestly don’t see how anyone reading that rule thinks that it is worded to mean only effects that target the familiar. There are other rules like that and they are more explicit.
Meanwhile, the poison is an effect. And, it is an effect related to the number of hit dice. So, a best faith reading of the text should lead to the poison DC scaling. If something else is intended, then errata is needed.
The errata could even be shorter than what exists.
“For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice”
Could change to
“For effects that target the familiar”
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Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Well, SKR has left the building, but JJ is still here. And "opposing opinions from two different designers" doesn't really clarify matters.
It is a little surprising that something this basic -- minor, but basic -- has never been FAQed or errataed. The familiar rules are in the core Players Guide, which came out almost ten years ago.
Doug M.
Actually, the errata does clarify matters. It indicates that they did not want the pre-errata version. Since the two options were scales and not scales, and the errata forces not-scales, it implies scales is the default.
/cevah
Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: -- As the wizard levels up, familiars add "virtual" HD, but they don't get feats and don't get skill ranks either, right? Though their skills might improve as their Int slowly goes up. Correct? They don’t get feats, but (with the exception of one archetype I know of) they do get to share the skill ranks of their master. This should be higher than what a familiar normally gets, unless the character is an Int-dumped sorcerer.
If the master puts a single rank in stealth, the familiar gets that rank plus class skill plus the familiar’s ability modifier. Note the list of class skills for the familiar is different than the list for the character.
If the PC gets a handful of castings of Alter Self in such a manner that the Share Spells effect applies, the itty bitty spider can become a full-fledged Humanoid a few times per day. Humanoids, as some people have claimed, can be quite useful in an adventurers' party.
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