Beyond what was discussed in the Core Rule Book, what religions do you think will have changed between Pathfinder and Starfinder and how?
Examples: Will the Great Old Ones that were on Golarion still have a following?
Do followers of Tolc who wish to practice the obedience (not that rules for it exist in starfinder) still have to go outdoors naked while in space (Though starshaman might not have as big an issue)?
Is the godclaw still around, and if so does it still contain the same deities as it once did (in numbers and in individuals)?
Are we to assume certain demigods who were on the path of ascension have ascended?
How are faiths effected that are centered on oceans and weather, when interplanetary travel has become relatively common place?
And how is Razmir's cult doing? He could have ascended to divinity, just plain died and is being punished, or attained some other form of immortality.
Great Old Ones weren't Golarion-specific, and have quite a large following on Aucturn. I imagine Gozreh has seen a distinct change in his/her worship, as the sky is much, much bigger. Ocean/weather related deities probably have not changed too much. New worlds will most likely have new oceans so if anything those faiths may have flourished It is unknown if the Godclaw is still around, but since Torag has disappeared to protect Golarion he is likely no longer part of the Godclaw pantheon.
Great Old Ones weren't Golarion-specific, and have quite a large following on Aucturn. I imagine Gozreh has seen a distinct change in his/her worship, as the sky is much, much bigger. Ocean/weather related deities probably have not changed too much. New worlds will most likely have new oceans so if anything those faiths may have flourished It is unknown if the Godclaw is still around, but since Torag has disappeared to protect Golarion he is likely no longer part of the Godclaw pantheon.
Thank you for being the first to jump in.
Far as the great old ones go, you are right, they arn't. BUT: Mhar resided in the Kodar Mountains, Ogresh had substantial connections to the Land of Black Blood (and could be/have been there), and Xhamen-Dor resided on Golarion at the bottom of a lake. Thats three great old ones that could of and would of disappeared with Golarion unless they got out and went elsewhere.
Shelyn is the most interesting to me. What is she up to?
Shelyn is the most interesting to me. What is she up to?
All we -know- is she isn't talking as much. Most likely she's out trying to figure out what changed her brother and what she can do about it. Course, this means that Shelyn might come back and ZK turns back to who he was. She might come back and nothing really changes. She could return as a different goddess.. Maybe even ZK and Shelyn switch.
Course, I've proposed the notion that what actually happened is a jump left her in the drift, a place magic cannot be used to get in or out of, and drift engines are actually a subtle move by the three part AI god to usurp power from the other divinities, gradually causing disappearances and pulling portions of other planes away. It is a long game, but a divine computer has the time and the vision.
Or.. maybe she's busy with something else, something that it would be best most don't know about..
But, yeah.. Im sure she's just out.. Between the planes or out there where Devourers are made and perhaps beyond the realm of the Qlippoth.
Gorum. . . probably just doesn't have much or any in the way of followers in the Pact Worlds, these days. Fundamentally, the nature of warfare has changed, as has the nature of society. There just isn't much place for an orthodox Gorumite, not with warfare now being the province of disciplined armies and navies with battles won by logistics.
I wouldn't be so sure. Mercenaries do still exist and Gorumites make terrific mercenaries. In many ways, he's also the god of fighting for fighting's sake rather than just war. And Gorum does still have a sense of honor, like not killing non-combatants and accepting surrender, so I can see a lot of Vesk warriors being drawn to him.
Torag and Rovagug are obviously no longer granting spells to worshipers in the Pact Worlds, but otherwise any deity for which no changes are described is most likely not changed in any noticeable way from the Pathfinder version.
The loss of Torag would have driven changes to the Order of the Godclaw, as Torag was a member of its pantheon of five lawful deities. Even if a suitable replacement is found for him, would Asmodeus and Iomedae both still be represented? Since the answer to that question would spoil later historical events, it is easier to declare that the Order of the Godclaw disbanded at some point during the Gap for unknown reasons.
I still think Damoritosh and Gorum are just the same deity as presented to different planets.
CN to LE is a pretty huge shift. A deity even shifting one alignment step is rare, so three is a bit much to believe. On the other hand, the core tenets of the faith seem to be the same, such as fighting and accepting surrender.
Also, in a similar vein, The Devourer and Rovagug seem pretty much identical, except The Devourer isn't imprisoned. This makes the question of what happened to Golarion even more interesting.
Eh, there's some important differences in practice. Rovagug is an active force of destruction, first and foremost, ravenous hunger destroying all in the now. The Devourer is more. . . slow and inevitable, with things just grinding to a halt and ending.
Hmm, that's not really how I read it, especially given the entry in Alien Archive about the Draeliks. The philosophy of Ataxxea is about the slow and inevitable end of things while followers of The Devourer are actively destructive. The Draeliks like to watch stuff wither and die. The Devourer and its followers actively make stuff wither and die, which really isn't that different from Rovagug.
I agree, there's a difference, but it's been thousands of years and cultures have changed a lot, so that could easily explain the rather minor shift between the tenets of Rovagug's and The Devourer's faith.
For all we know, the Devourer -is- Golarion, rendered (semi-)concious by the influence of Rovagug, and thats why the gods had to do something.
But as we all know, there are no deities that resulted from either influence by another divinity, or from the merger of divinities. And Rovagug can’t create or misshape things like that.
*Puts away tin foil*
Actually, on another front.. I find it amusing this new deity(?) is called the devourer, considering devourers (the undead creature) exist.
Here is another divinity I feel is worth bringing up: Shamira.
Do you think her relationship with her mother or her lover has changed (especially assuming the possibility of her lover's ascension)? How do you think Shamira is viewed on the Burning Archipelago? What might of been viewed as heretical could have become considered heterodoxy or even orthodoxy.
My headcanon is that Weyden is Cayden Cailean after the (very literally) Twelve-Step Program of the Gods (Step 1: Recognize that I am a Higher Power)
Opposite theory, since it does state that Weyden didn't start as a mortal:
What if Cayden Cailean was one of Weydan's his mortal avatars?
A step further: What if everyone to complete the test of the Starstone and ascend to divinity were themselves extensions of Weydan, a spark of the divine that would be inherent to his messiah being a requirement of passing the test.
It doesn't work for all the starstone deities, but it would explain why Cayden was able to complete the test while drunk...
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HOPEFULLY Razmir is still kicking. Love that codger.
Love you too! I'll be sure to set you up with a raise. Don't you love how generous I am?
Also, in a similar vein, The Devourer and Rovagug seem pretty much identical
I just assumed they were supposed to be the same deity and just Rovagug's name got lost in the gap.
Basically the same portfolio and goals and 'the Devourer' is one of Rovagug's titles in Pathfiner.
They may be gods whose worship was once common but has since fallen out of fashion, deities primarily worshiped by a particular race or civilization, or minor gods who simply have less influence on the divine stage.
According to this passage, some deities just... fell out of necessity or just lost their primary worship planet.
According to Pathfinder's lore, deities don't die if they lose their worshippers. Other deities or very powerful creatures can kill a deity, but you cannot kill one by wiping its worshippers entirely. This might be a legacy stuff from D&D though, as the Githyankis' Lich Queen didn't want to become a patron deity to avoid dying by lacking worshippers.
Back to Starfinder, why would Abadar, Desna, Iomedae, Pharasma, Sarenrae, Urgathoa and Zon-Kuthon be able to "survive" without Golarion? How did Besmara become a greater deity than she was? How did Lao Shu Po go from the "Goddess of rats and ratfolks" to the "Goddess of ysokis"... when ysokis were never heard from until Starfinder? How did we even get a god of computers, Triune, when a computer was surely invented by mankind? How did Eloritu become the next god of magic after Nethys, when magic wasn't cast aside when technology came around?
Rovagug and Torag are the only known core deities that vanished with Golarion... although nothing of a plane shift spell can correct for them to return home. Shelyn is still alive, but she's apparently travelling the cosmos to cure his half-brother... yet she isn't listed as a "minor" deity. The rest? No idea...
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HOPEFULLY Razmir is still kicking. Love that codger.Love you too! I'll be sure to set you up with a raise. Don't you love how generous I am?
Ok. Thats it. We NEED to learn the fate of Razmir, or otherwise get at least some reference to him in Starfinder. His decendents, his followers, anything.
Ok. Thats it. We NEED to learn the fate of Razmir, or otherwise get at least some reference to him in Starfinder. His decendents, his followers, anything.HOPEFULLY Razmir is still kicking. Love that codger.Love you too! I'll be sure to set you up with a raise. Don't you love how generous I am?
I'm not sure we ever will. It's possible that the entirety of the Pathfinder setting falls smack dab in The Gap. After all, it lasted millenia and the before-Gap time is described as "ancient past".
In fact, that would just generally be a smart move for designing the setting. After all, if nobody remembers what happened in Pathfinder, the Pathfinder writers are free to do basically whatever without having to worry about Starfinder canon.
I'm pretty sure we can have multiple deities of the same thing.
I'm pretty sure we can have multiple deities of the same thing.
magic, the moon, wisdom, writing
Jade, the moon, spirits
desolation, the moon, werewolves
the moon, forestry, hunting
magic, the moon, wisdom, writing
moonlight, dancers, lonely spirits
They may be gods whose worship was once common but has since fallen out of fashion, deities primarily worshiped by a particular race or civilization, or minor gods who simply have less influence on the divine stage.According to this passage, some deities just... fell out of necessity or just lost their primary worship planet.
According to Pathfinder's lore, deities don't die if they lose their worshippers. Other deities or very powerful creatures can kill a deity, but you cannot kill one by wiping its worshippers entirely. This might be a legacy stuff from D&D though, as the Githyankis' Lich Queen didn't want to become a patron deity to avoid dying by lacking worshippers.
Back to Starfinder, why would Abadar, Desna, Iomedae, Pharasma, Sarenrae, Urgathoa and Zon-Kuthon be able to "survive" without Golarion? How did Besmara become a greater deity than she was? How did Lao Shu Po go from the "Goddess of rats and ratfolks" to the "Goddess of ysokis"... when ysokis were never heard from until Starfinder? How did we even get a god of computers, Triune, when a computer was surely invented by mankind? How did Eloritu become the next god of magic after Nethys, when magic wasn't cast aside when technology came around?
Rovagug and Torag are the only known core deities that vanished with Golarion... although nothing of a plane shift spell can correct for them to return home. Shelyn is still alive, but she's apparently travelling the cosmos to cure his half-brother... yet she isn't listed as a "minor" deity. The rest? No idea...
Why would Abadar, Desna, Iomedae, Pharasma, Sarenrae, Urgathoa, and ZK survive without Golarion? Because they'd have followers elsewhere. Unless I am mistaken, none of their domains were on the Cage, none of them were exclusively followed on Golarion, and their worship was carried to the stars even if they were. ZK especially, as do you think the velstracs are just going to limit themselves to the flesh and delicious suffering of one planet? They are scientists and artists.
Besmara: Space Pirates. Thats.. all I got.
Laof Shuf Po: Ysoki were mentioned as far back as 2008, and they have always been Akiton's ratfolk.
Triune: Three AI ascended to godhood and decided they's run better if they were one being, and AI are just as capable of ascending as beings of flesh. Humans were created by humans and some have become gods too after all.
Eloritu: There can and are multiple gods of the same thing so I see no issue there, just this one covers tech too. Nethys may still yet have followers.
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I assume Nethys is no longer provided as a god because if there is one being that is going to know what happened during the Gap and share that info it is going to be Nethys. Maybe the other gods all got together to make sure he'd shut up about it.
Nethys, god of duck tape.
Perhaps Nethys just started a long project and forgot to hand out spells for a century or two. Time flies when you're having fun, but his clerics might not have enjoyed that so much. RIP the First Church of Nethys.
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Why would Abadar, Desna, Iomedae, Pharasma, Sarenrae, Urgathoa, and ZK survive without Golarion? Because they'd have followers elsewhere. Unless I am mistaken, none of their domains were on the Cage, none of them were exclusively followed on Golarion, and their worship was carried to the stars even if they were. ZK especially, as do you think the velstracs are just going to limit themselves to the flesh...
It's even more extensive than that in some cases, Pharsma's entry specifically states "Every species that lives and dies worships Pharasma to some extent, though many do so by different names or in forms unfamiliar to Pact World races." It sure makes it sound like she'd be a major deity no matter what.
And Abadar, "Abadar’s church, AbadarCorp (see page 473), is
simultaneously a religious institution and one of the most
successful and powerful corporations in the Pact Worlds." Even if Abadar himself isn't that powerful, his Corp Church ensures he'll be well known and his worship important on at least some level.
Laof Shuf Po: Ysoki were mentioned as far back as 2008, and they have always been Akiton's ratfolk.
It's worth noting here that while ysoki did originate as a term for Akiton ratfolk, ysoki has become a generic name for all ratfolk everywhere, there's substantial variation in the looks of ysoki because of this, "While the term “ysoki” originates from Akiton, where the race has long been a vibrant and respected culture, populations of ratfolk (as they’re sometimes called) existed on several worlds for millennia before spaceflight became common. Whether these different populations were examples of convergent evolution or they shared a common ancestor is anyone’s guess, but today most of these cultures now identify as part of the overarching ysoki race. This is due partially to the wide variation in ysoki heredity, which makes ethnicity (and often even immediate family connections) almost impossible to determine by sight or genetics, but even more so to the fact that ysoki have done more than any other ratfolk group to demand and maintain the respect of larger races."
My personal theory is that some time during the Gap, Besmara mugged Lamashtu and stoke the monsters portfolio from her.
My headcanon for Nethys is that he set off trying to fix the akasic record, which encountered errors from Aroden's death and loss of prophecy. (I think of him as claiming the Record as his main domain, since so much of his alignment plane is taken up by Pharasma's sorting operation) During this time, he neglected to interact much with the material plane, and lost worshippers as a result. The Gap is partially due to the errors in the Record and the updates to it.
I really like this idea. I'll probably steal that for my home game, both in terms of Golarion cosmology and some aspects of Starfinder. I also think that was was pointed out earlier in the thread, Azlanti deities have probably stuck around. Sicva is probably worshipped by some military officials, especially her aspects of conquest and domination.
My headcanon for Nethys is that he set off trying to fix the akasic record, which encountered errors from Aroden's death and loss of prophecy. (I think of him as claiming the Record as his main domain, since so much of his alignment plane is taken up by Pharasma's sorting operation) During this time, he neglected to interact much with the material plane, and lost worshippers as a result. The Gap is partially due to the errors in the Record and the updates to it.
Thinking about this, this does raise another question:
How was the Book of the Damned impacted by the Gap? It is constantly updating itself, recording every evil thought and more. Would the book:
A. Have a back log that it works to fill, meaning it may be behind.
B. Be unaffected.
C. Have the information it would of collected during the gap curiously absent.
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My headcanon for Nethys is that he set off trying to fix the akasic record, which encountered errors from Aroden's death and loss of prophecy. (I think of him as claiming the Record as his main domain, since so much of his alignment plane is taken up by Pharasma's sorting operation) During this time, he neglected to interact much with the material plane, and lost worshippers as a result. The Gap is partially due to the errors in the Record and the updates to it.Thinking about this, this does raise another question:
How was the Book of the Damned impacted by the Gap? It is constantly updating itself, recording every evil thought and more. Would the book:
A. Have a back log that it works to fill, meaning it may be behind.
B. Be unaffected.
C. Have the information it would of collected during the gap curiously absent.
D. Several collectors of rare books have indicated that they own copies of portions of the second edition of the Book of the Damned. Rumors of a third edition of the blasphemous tome are hotly contested among scholars.
However, anything having to do with the regions effected by the Gap ( ie, the Prime Material Plane, or at least most of it ) are cosmically "redacted", either absent or unreadable.
I would argue that this in fact isn't possible. The book cosmically redacts *itself* to be correct whenever it is tampered with and is outside of even the power of the gods to change (because if they COULD, then all those chapters on the deific sins would CERTAINLY not be accessible).
Thus the Book of the Damned would have all the information that occurred within the Gap, and more importantly, would likely have the information of who caused the gap, due to the fact that it records every action a god takes against their portfolio, which means any gods of knowledge would likely be listed in the book. As well as any number of other gods with hints as to what happened during the gap to cause them to wipe everyone's memory, because presumably they would have been forced to act by whatever crisis caused the Gap in the first place.
Book of the Damned Starfinder Quest: Hook the book up to the biggest, most accessible database on the material plane. Make the info contained therein easily accessed.
Book of the Damned Starfinder Quest: Hook the book up to the biggest, most accessible database on the material plane. Make the info contained therein easily accessed.
You could, but it'd be less like a quest and more like a campaign, as to get a full account you would require not only the Book of the Damned, but also the Concordance of Rivals and the Chronicle of the Righteous. Each of which is shattered into many pages across the prime material and from whom a single chapter or even page is an incredibly valuable artifact containing incredible amounts of knowledge.
If you could successfully gather the pages of each book, accessing their deepest secrets would require fighting the embodiment of their knowledge each a shard of the angel who imbued his essence into the tomes. They are CR 25 creatures by PF standards and reform to fight again after a week. Good luck.
Book of the Damned Starfinder Quest: Hook the book up to the biggest, most accessible database on the material plane. Make the info contained therein easily accessed.You could, but it'd be less like a quest and more like a campaign, as to get a full account you would require not only the Book of the Damned, but also the Concordance of Rivals and the Chronicle of the Righteous. Each of which is shattered into many pages across the prime material and from whom a single chapter or even page is an incredibly valuable artifact containing incredible amounts of knowledge.
If you could successfully gather the pages of each book, accessing their deepest secrets would require fighting the embodiment of their knowledge each a shard of the angel who imbued his essence into the tomes. They are CR 25 creatures by PF standards and reform to fight again after a week. Good luck.
That is a excellent point. it would be a great deal to do.. but one has to wonder the impact. Forbidden information turned from obscure to widely available.
...Another gap?