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Throw and returning shield question multiple attacks


Rules Questions


I have a player that insists that while duel welding shields as a shield champion archetype they can change targets of the shields mid flight. For example Shield champion has 3 bad guys to kill. For arguments sake he gets 3 attacks per shield...

He throws shield 1 at bad guy A he hits 2 times and kills bad guy A

He throws shield 2 at bad guy B he critically hits 1 time and kills bad guy B

Can he use the remaining 1 attack on shield 1 and 2 attacks on shield 2 to attack bad guy C?

He does not know beforehand that he will kill the targets....

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

How many separate shield attacks does the PC make?

How many shields is he wearing?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It sounds like your friend is using an ability that allows one shield to hit multiple foes?

If you could quote or link to that ability it would be helpful.


He is duel wielding 2 shields only. He has 3 attacks with each shield

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler/archetypes/paizo-bra wler-archetypes/shield-champion/


You can't change targets mid flight, but a Shield Champion Brawler of 5th level or higher shouldn't need to. Just have the shields return before doing another attack with them.


According to Shield champion the shield returns "at the end of her turn"


Quote:

Returning Shield (Ex): At 5th level, a shield champion can throw a shield so it ricochets off her target (and possibly other solid objects) to return to her at the end of her turn. This ability functions whether or not the shield champion hits her opponent or moves on her turn. The shield deals no damage to targets it bounces off, other than the original target of the shield champion's attack. Certain circumstances can prevent the shield from returning to the shield champion, such as an opponent using a readied action to catch the shield, or the shield sticking to a mimic's adhesive. The shield champion can opt to not have a thrown shield return to her, in which case it falls to the ground as it normally would. If the shield has the returning ranged weapon special ability, she can use either that or this ability.

If a shield champion has additional attacks from a high base attack bonus, these additional attacks can be ricochets off an earlier target. The distance to each additional target counts toward the total range of the shield, and range penalties apply, but there are no additional penalties for attacking in this manner. Because ricocheting attacks are treated as separate attacks, effects and modifiers that apply to only one attack roll (such as true strike) apply to only the first attack and not to the others. A shield champion can throw a shield as part of a brawler's flurry.

Rules wise there is nothing saying he has to call out his targets ahead of time anymore than any other character making a full attack.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If a character is out of ammunition or throwing weapon he can't make more attacks, even if he has them available. A 20 level fighter, specialized in bow and with haste is still limited to a single bow attack if he has only 1 arrow.
Each shield (barring other abilities that allow him to target multiple enemies when he throw it) make only 1 attack until it is again in the thrower hands. The returning ability make it return at the end of the turn, so it is not possible to throw again the same shield. With two shields he is limited to two attacks. He hasn't a telekinetik ability that allow him to move the shield without touching it.

With a blinkback belt maybe he can do that, if the GM decide that the shield count as a one handed melee weapon.


Diego Rossi wrote:

If a character is out of ammunition or throwing weapon he can't make more attacks,...

Please read the second paragraph of the text Harry helpfully quoted.

It seems that yeah, it works the way your player seems to say it does. As long as none of the attacks exceed the range, and you add the ranges, he can bounce the shield from one foe to the next. And nothing requires him to pick his targets ahead of time.

Also, he could make all 6 attacks with the same shield, if he wants. Though probably better to split them up, stacking ranged penalties and all.


Sorry, you're right, I read the 5th level ability wrong -- I thought it was better than the Returning ability. A Blinkback belt would potentially work to do what I thought it did if you could figure out whether a Throwing Shield is a Light or One-Handed Weapon (it is listed as an Exotic Ranged Weapon, with no mention of its melee use) for the purpose of a Blinkback Belt -- it does more damage than either, but says that it can't be a Tower Shield, so I would be inclined to count it as a souped-up Heavy Shield, which is a One-Handed weapon (and geometrically, I don't see how a belt is going to fit more than 2 of these, and even that is going to be geometrically inconvenient). Come to think of it, on rereading the 5th level ability, a Blinkback Belt seems a requirement if you want to hit the same target multiple times with 1 shield -- otherwise you are forced into attacking like a Mutalisk in Starcraft or a Huntress in WarCraft III (all bounce attacks are on different targets).


Pequid,

Is this for a Pathfinder Society group you're running? Why are you asking us? You are the GM. Why don't you just make a ruling?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Pequid,

Is this for a Pathfinder Society group you're running? Why are you asking us? You are the GM. Why don't you just make a ruling?

You have never asked the opinion of neutral third parties before making a decision? Ultimately the DM will always need to make the final decision, so by your logic, this entire board is redundant...

I reject your position because the logical result makes me sad, goshdarnit.


toastedamphibian wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Pequid,

Is this for a Pathfinder Society group you're running? Why are you asking us? You are the GM. Why don't you just make a ruling?

You have never asked the opinion of neutral third parties before making a decision? Ultimately the DM will always need to make the final decision, so by your logic, this entire board is redundant...

I reject your position because the logical result makes me sad, goshdarnit.

No. Never. Not when I'm GMing.

I'm not a Pathfinder Society GM. Whenever I run a campaign, I make up my own mind about the rules, and that is that.

RAW is for Pathfinder Society, where all the GMs in the world have to be on the same page, where the players are paying customers, and the GMs are unpaid customer service representatives, where the product has to work the way it says it does, or it is just worthless.

But for some GMs, adherence to RAW, or a RAW justification of a ruling, or just using the RAW as guidelines more than as actual rules is important to them. Or maybe Pequid has some other motivation that I haven't considered. Pequid's answer affects my advice.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I wouldn't allow the character to make two successive shield attacks on a single target to begin with.

That is, you can't ricochet a shield off Person A in to... Person A.

Thus, I'd require each ricochet attack to be on a different target than the last. You might go A > B > A, but not A > A > B.

Since he is using two shields he could direct both of them at a single target for a particular ricochet; A & A > B & B > A & C.

As to whether they have to specify the 'ricochet sequence' in advance or can adjust it as the round goes on... logic argues for advance declaration.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Pequid,

Is this for a Pathfinder Society group you're running? Why are you asking us? You are the GM. Why don't you just make a ruling?

Scott

It is not. I am looking for opinions of those who may know the rules/interpretation better than I. My player has brought up a legitimate issues that I read much differently than he does. I do not like using the "cause I say so" card.....

All

I am not asserting that he does not get multiple attacks, he most certainly does. What I am asking is after one of the targets has died can he redirect any remaining attacks he has with the shields to new targets? Even though the shield does not return to his hands until the end of his turn?

If he can why is it not the same with manyshot on a xbow or a bow? Both are targeted at 1 target and leave control of the character.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

This is an example of “it doesn’t say I can’t”

Some times with “it doesn’t say I can’t” it’s obvious you can’t. Other times, it takes a GM to determine if you can or can’t.

I think it’s obvious you can’t change it’s course when it’s away from you. You are not using telekinesis. Others see it as it doesn’t expend words putting limits in the ability so that must mean telekinesis.


James Risner wrote:

This is an example of “it doesn’t say I can’t”

Some times with “it doesn’t say I can’t” it’s obvious you can’t. Other times, it takes a GM to determine if you can or can’t.

I think it’s obvious you can’t change it’s course when it’s away from you. You are not using telekinesis. Others see it as it doesn’t expend words putting limits in the ability so that must mean telekinesis.

The rule book is pretty clear that you can switch targets between attacks on a full round attack and that you can decide what your targeting between each attack. The shield champion 5th level ability also says they can ricochet the shield to multiple targets.

The only possible issue I could see is that you couldn’t hit the same opponent twice in a row but the ability says that you can bounce the shield off objects when it returns to you so it’s not much of a stretch to just assume it hits target A, bounces off a wall, and then hits target A again before bouncing to target B.


The bouncing of the shield champion eats an attack. Instead of going A>B>A, it goes A>wall>A.

Pathfinder rules - you don't have to set the course of the shield before it launches.

Logical sense - an archer can quick snap to another target before shooting again at a dead body. A martial can swing his weapon a different way. The shield is in flight with no ways of controlling it anymore.


pequid wrote:
If he can why is it not the same with manyshot on a xbow or a bow? Both are targeted at 1 target and leave control of the character.

Manyshot isn't really a comparable situation. It's one attack that fires two arrows, not two attacks.

The wording of the shield champion's Returning Shield actually does seem to support the interpretation that you can't actually have one thrown shield hit the same target more than once.

That said, I don't think it's particularly unbalanced to let it work like any other ranged attack and let it hit the same target repeatedly and then redirect to a different target if that target dies or gets knocked out. It's a bit strange, I agree, but then so it the whole ability. If you'd like some reason to justify it, maybe he threw the shield just right so that if Target A collapsed and fell out of the way when it would have gone to hit him again it instead ricochets to Target B.


It'd suck for them to have to use feats for these but..
point out "Ricochet Toss" feat for this fellow.
It combos fairly well with Shield Champion and what it sounds like this fellow wants


pequid wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Pequid,

Is this for a Pathfinder Society group you're running? Why are you asking us? You are the GM. Why don't you just make a ruling?

Scott

It is not. I am looking for opinions of those who may know the rules/interpretation better than I. My player has brought up a legitimate issues that I read much differently than he does. I do not like using the "cause I say so" card.....

All

I am not asserting that he does not get multiple attacks, he most certainly does. What I am asking is after one of the targets has died can he redirect any remaining attacks he has with the shields to new targets? Even though the shield does not return to his hands until the end of his turn?

If he can why is it not the same with manyshot on a xbow or a bow? Both are targeted at 1 target and leave control of the character.

I think the ricochet of the Returning Shield works regardless of whether the target survives the attack. The Returning Shield Ability allows the Shield Champion to make all of his attacks allowed by his Full Attack with his shield against 1 target or divide his attacks amongst multiple targets.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As a GM I would require to plot the whole sequence of attacks when throwing the shield, but I am prejudiced against the use of the shields as a main weapon.
My reading of the text of the ability is that:
1) The Shield champion can chose his target after every attack, successful or not;
2) He can't attack the same target two times in a row with a single throw; but he can attack the target, use an attack to bounce the shield against something and attack it again with the third attack.

The ability to select different targets if one the one you wanted dies with the first attack probably was added for balance reasons, to allow the Shield champion the same number of throw attacks of someone using daggers or other weapons.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
s00pahFr0g wrote:
The only possible issue I could see is that you couldn’t hit the same opponent twice in a row but the ability says that you can bounce the shield off objects when it returns to you so it’s not much of a stretch to just assume it hits target A, bounces off a wall, and then hits target A again before bouncing to target B.

Yes, it might be reasonable to extend the 'bounce off objects to return' to also apply to 'bounce off objects to hit another target', but then you'd also need to factor in the distance to/from the object when computing range penalties for the attack... the text only SAYS 'range between targets', but that's because it only anticipated bouncing between targets.

How this ability should be ruled comes down to the type of game you play. I try to follow logical consistency so that there is always a solid reason for how and why things work. Other GMs might follow a 'rule of cool' or just make a snap decision semi-randomly. The important thing is to have a system so that you know what to do when the NEXT issue comes up...

...like, given that you can bounce the shield around, a player might argue that allows them to attack targets around corners. Logical consistency... no, you can't aim at something you can't see. Rule of cool... yep that'd be awesome, it must work. Semi-random... it works this time... but not next time.

Figure out how you want your game to work and that should tell you how to 'fill in the blanks' on most issues like this.

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